BadWikiNames

[keschte]

I'm writing to this list because I do not understand what Mr. Rudat is
doing to the wiki currently. See
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/RecentChanges

a) From the instructions on the BadWikiName page, wikizens are
encouraged to rename pages which have a BadWikiName, and update the
wiki accordingly. Now there are some cases where this would be a weird
thing to do, like:
b) Some pages can't possibly use CamelCase, like "Edit" or "Editor" or
"Release" or "Artist". Does this make them a BadWikiName? what do you
think?

regards, Stefan

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[derGraph]

Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
> b) Some pages can't possibly use CamelCase, like "Edit" or "Editor" or
> "Release" or "Artist". Does this make them a BadWikiName? what do you
> think?

I guess I never really got the point of that page. Sure, it might be
nice to have every reference to another page automatically converted
into a hyperlink, but on the other hand, the more hyperlinks a page
contains the harder it is to read.

So in my opinion this whole page might also be deleted, or changed to
ask only for page names which might be misunderstood.

--

 derGraph


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[Cristov Russell]

> Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
> > b) Some pages can't possibly use CamelCase, like "Edit" or
> "Editor" or
> > "Release" or "Artist". Does this make them a BadWikiName?
> what do you
> > think?
>
> I guess I never really got the point of that page. Sure, it
> might be nice to have every reference to another page
> automatically converted into a hyperlink, but on the other
> hand, the more hyperlinks a page contains the harder it is to read.
>
> So in my opinion this whole page might also be deleted, or
> changed to ask only for page names which might be misunderstood.
>
> --
>
>  derGraph

It's more than just hyperlinking. Some wiki functions will not work if a
BadWikiName is used such as templates. That said, some names will be
completely unavoidable.

What I do not agree with is the adding of BadWikiName to the category line
as this also breaks automatically adding categories via the dropdown. I just
asked him to not add links there.

--
Cristov (wolfsong)



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[keschte]

> What I do not agree with is the adding of BadWikiName to the category line
> as this also breaks automatically adding categories via the dropdown. I just
> asked him to not add links there.

i was questioning the whole excercise. it is clear that CategoryPerson
pages do not use camelcase, because that is not relevant for choosing
an user name. i can't possibly understand why one would have to add
BadWikiName to these pages. BadWikiName was a concept to help the
transition from UseMod to MoinMoin, since they have different reserved
words. Same thing with "ASIN", "IRC" and the other examples i included
before. they are not bad wiki names, they just don't use camelcase and
need to be linked with ["SomeNAME"], so what?

> It's more than just hyperlinking. Some wiki functions will not work if a
> BadWikiName is used such as templates. That said, some names will be
> completely unavoidable.

Can you elaborate on the "templates" note you made before, i don't
understand. Is it because "SomeNameTemplate" is added to the list of
templates one can choose from when creating a new page?

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[Cristov Russell]

> > What I do not agree with is the adding of BadWikiName to
> the category
> > line as this also breaks automatically adding categories via the
> > dropdown. I just asked him to not add links there.
>
> i was questioning the whole excercise. it is clear that
> CategoryPerson pages do not use camelcase, because that is
> not relevant for choosing an user name. i can't possibly
> understand why one would have to add BadWikiName to these
> pages. BadWikiName was a concept to help the transition from
> UseMod to MoinMoin, since they have different reserved words.
> Same thing with "ASIN", "IRC" and the other examples i
> included before. they are not bad wiki names, they just don't
> use camelcase and need to be linked with ["SomeNAME"], so what?

It's also something that should not appear on any WikiDocs pages. I've
pointed him to BadMoinMoinWikiNames as this is a better place to "catalog"
these names and yes it does include person names.

> > It's more than just hyperlinking. Some wiki functions will
> not work if
> > a BadWikiName is used such as templates. That said, some
> names will be
> > completely unavoidable.
>
> Can you elaborate on the "templates" note you made before, i
> don't understand. Is it because "SomeNameTemplate" is added
> to the list of templates one can choose from when creating a new page?

Yes exactly.

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[Cristov Russell]

Also, nothing should be entered after a category including Original Version and Author. If you want to include it, put it after the horizontal rule and before any categories. We should also avoid categories with bad wiki names as they also break adding new categories.

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[DonRedman]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:09:38 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:

> i was questioning the whole excercise. it is clear that CategoryPerson
> pages do not use camelcase, because that is not relevant for choosing
> an user name. i can't possibly understand why one would have to add
> BadWikiName to these pages. BadWikiName was a concept to help the
> transition from UseMod to MoinMoin, since they have different reserved
> words. Same thing with "ASIN", "IRC" and the other examples i included
> before. they are not bad wiki names, they just don't use camelcase and
> need to be linked with ["SomeNAME"], so what?

Erm, what you are taling about, and what he _meant_ are  
BadMoinMoinWikiNames. Those are names which are CamelCase, but contain two  
or more capitals after each other. They were automatically converted to  
links in UseMod, but are not in the standard MoinMoin version.

By now I learned that there is a regex in a moin config file somewhere  
that could be changed to recreate the old UseMod functionality.

I completely agree that it makes no sense whatsoever to add a category for  
this problem to every page. We have a sollution and it is to enter the  
name in [""]. It is not ideal, but it works: wiki wiki :-)

If Martin or anybody else wants a better sollution to this problem, they  
should have a look at the regex. (and PLEASE use their own wiki to play  
before changing it on wiki.mb.org)


However, BadWikiName is a completely different concept. I noticed with  
horror that the concept is not explained at all on that page (but I  
thought it was and continoulsy referred people to that page). So let me  
elaborate:

A BadWikiName is the opposite of a GoodWikiName (that page does explain  
what it is). WikiNames
  - which do not clearly tell what the page is about,
  - which contain a status that might change over time (like ...Proposal),
  - which use a plural form while the 'thing' is referred to in singular as  
well,
  - etc.
all these names are 'bad' in the sense that they are a hinderance to good  
intertwingling, to useful embedding of links to that page in other  
contexts.

There are many bad wiki names, which we will never change again:  
AdvancedRelationships is one of them: It is plural and how long will they  
stay 'advanced'? However, the name has stuck, so it would be stupid to  
rename the page.

If someone encounters a BadWikiName (in this sense of the concept), then
  a) if the page is older, and you are not familiar with the history of our  
wiki, ask someone who is. There might be a good reason for the name (or  
for keeping it).
  b) propose a better wiki name _on that page_.
  c) If there is consensus, rename the page.

Adding all pages which you believe to have bad wiki names to a category is  
not helpful at all. I belive that this was useful in the old days, when  
there still were a lot of old bad wiki names.

   DonRedman

PS: Martin, do you read this thread? Or did someone notify him about it?

--
Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)

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[Cristov Russell]

I don't think Martin reads this thread but he and I were both on IRC this morning when Stefan posted this. I asked him to undo (and he did) all the additions. He also added a search to BadMoiMoinWikiNames that looks for wiki pages with CamelCase problems and added that page to CategoryToDo since I also told him that status messages and aCategoryBadWikiName were not good ideas. I also removed the "add BadWikiName to pages" instruction. So if you (DonRedman) update that page you might want to add that back in and give an example of where to place (top of the page?) a status message.

Cristov (wolfsong)

--- donredman@... wrote:

From: "Don Redman" <donredman@...>
To: "Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users" <musicbrainz-experts@...>
Subject: Re: [mb-experts] BadWikiNames
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:32:00 +0200

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:09:38 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:

> i was questioning the whole excercise. it is clear that CategoryPerson
> pages do not use camelcase, because that is not relevant for choosing
> an user name. i can't possibly understand why one would have to add
> BadWikiName to these pages. BadWikiName was a concept to help the
> transition from UseMod to MoinMoin, since they have different reserved
> words. Same thing with "ASIN", "IRC" and the other examples i included
> before. they are not bad wiki names, they just don't use camelcase and
> need to be linked with ["SomeNAME"], so what?

Erm, what you are taling about, and what he _meant_ are  
BadMoinMoinWikiNames. Those are names which are CamelCase, but contain two  
or more capitals after each other. They were automatically converted to  
links in UseMod, but are not in the standard MoinMoin version.

By now I learned that there is a regex in a moin config file somewhere  
that could be changed to recreate the old UseMod functionality.

I completely agree that it makes no sense whatsoever to add a category for  
this problem to every page. We have a sollution and it is to enter the  
name in [""]. It is not ideal, but it works: wiki wiki :-)

If Martin or anybody else wants a better sollution to this problem, they  
should have a look at the regex. (and PLEASE use their own wiki to play  
before changing it on wiki.mb.org)


However, BadWikiName is a completely different concept. I noticed with  
horror that the concept is not explained at all on that page (but I  
thought it was and continoulsy referred people to that page). So let me  
elaborate:

A BadWikiName is the opposite of a GoodWikiName (that page does explain  
what it is). WikiNames
  - which do not clearly tell what the page is about,
  - which contain a status that might change over time (like ...Proposal),
  - which use a plural form while the 'thing' is referred to in singular as  
well,
  - etc.
all these names are 'bad' in the sense that they are a hinderance to good  
intertwingling, to useful embedding of links to that page in other  
contexts.

There are many bad wiki names, which we will never change again:  
AdvancedRelationships is one of them: It is plural and how long will they  
stay 'advanced'? However, the name has stuck, so it would be stupid to  
rename the page.

If someone encounters a BadWikiName (in this sense of the concept), then
  a) if the page is older, and you are not familiar with the history of our  
wiki, ask someone who is. There might be a good reason for the name (or  
for keeping it).
  b) propose a better wiki name _on that page_.
  c) If there is consensus, rename the page.

Adding all pages which you believe to have bad wiki names to a category is  
not helpful at all. I belive that this was useful in the old days, when  
there still were a lot of old bad wiki names.

   DonRedman

PS: Martin, do you read this thread? Or did someone notify him about it?

--
Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)

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[DonRedman]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:43:54 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:

> I don't think Martin reads this thread but he and I were both on IRC  
> this morning when Stefan posted this. I asked him to undo (and he did)  
> all the additions. He also added a search to BadMoiMoinWikiNames that  
> looks for wiki pages with CamelCase problems and added that page to  
> CategoryToDo since I also told him that status messages and  
> aCategoryBadWikiName were not good ideas. I also removed the "add  
> BadWikiName to pages" instruction. So if you (DonRedman) update that  
> page you might want to add that back in and give an example of where to  
> place (top of the page?) a status message.

I rewrote the whole BadWikiName page.

And as I said, there is a real solution to the BadMoinWikiName problem.

   DonRedman

--
Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)

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