Bench-Grade 'reconditioning' battery chargers

[Forrest W Christian-2]

I keep running across the need to charge/recondition batteries here.  
Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd like to buy a charger or two
(probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for NiMH or NiCD
chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and recondition a fairly wide
range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA, Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
various sizes).

I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in each category which
actually makes me feel like the time to dig the charger out and use it
is worth it.

Anyone with a favorite charger like this?

-forrest

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[Jake Anderson-2]

Forrest W Christian wrote:

> I keep running across the need to charge/recondition batteries here.  
> Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd like to buy a charger or two
> (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for NiMH or NiCD
> chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and recondition a fairly wide
> range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA, Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
> various sizes).
>
> I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in each category which
> actually makes me feel like the time to dig the charger out and use it
> is worth it.
>
> Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
>
> -forrest
>
>  

I use a hobby charger for this kind of thing. They have all sorts of
charge/discharge stuff in them.

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[John Gardner-3]

Been using a Maha MC-8000 for AA, AAA NiMH for 2 years now.

So far I'm pleased.
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[John Chung]

Hi Jake,

Which hobby charger do you use?

Thanks,
John Chung



--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Jake Anderson <jake@...> wrote:

> From: Jake Anderson <jake@...>
> Subject: Re: [EE] Bench-Grade 'reconditioning' battery chargers
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
> Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 4:50 AM
> Forrest W Christian wrote:
> > I keep running across the need to charge/recondition
> batteries here.   
> > Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd
> like to buy a charger or two
> > (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for
> NiMH or NiCD
> > chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and
> recondition a fairly wide
> > range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA,
> Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
> > various sizes).
> >
> > I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in
> each category which
> > actually makes me feel like the time to dig the
> charger out and use it
> > is worth it.
> >
> > Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
> >
> > -forrest
> >
> >   
> I use a hobby charger for this kind of thing. They have all
> sorts of
> charge/discharge stuff in them.
>
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[SM Ling-2]

Maha, for NiMH/NiCD batteries that are in standard packaging (AA,AAA, C, D);

For miscellaneous need, I use a clone charger
< http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12618>
This charger has limited current and shall take a long time to charge
big capacity Lead Acid battery.  I have a multi-state charger
specially for Lead-Acid, and this had paid for itself.

Lately, DX has been very slow in shipment.  But with a simple search,
you can find alternative sites selling the same item.

You may want to consider a CBA from Westmountain.com.  I mainly use it
to capture the discharge curve, to confirm the battery that cannot be
savage anymore, or to prove the end-user that the battery is OK.

Cheers, Ling SM


On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Forrest W Christian <forrestc@...> wrote:

> I keep running across the need to charge/recondition batteries here.
> Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd like to buy a charger or two
> (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for NiMH or NiCD
> chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and recondition a fairly wide
> range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA, Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
> various sizes).
>
> I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in each category which
> actually makes me feel like the time to dig the charger out and use it
> is worth it.
>
> Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
>
> -forrest
>
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[Dr Skip]

I've started using the Maha MC-9000 and am very impressed. Many different ways
to set up the cycles, and it seems to have brought quite a few NiMH and NiCd
cells back to life so far for me.

-Skip

John Gardner wrote:
> Been using a Maha MC-8000 for AA, AAA NiMH for 2 years now.
>
> So far I'm pleased.
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[Jake Anderson-2]

I use a supernova and a triton
but I don't think they make them any more

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=216
most of the chargers there will do most things.

John Chung wrote:

> Hi Jake,
>
> Which hobby charger do you use?
>
> Thanks,
> John Chung
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 10/15/09, Jake Anderson <jake@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> From: Jake Anderson <jake@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EE] Bench-Grade 'reconditioning' battery chargers
>> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
>> Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 4:50 AM
>> Forrest W Christian wrote:
>>    
>>> I keep running across the need to charge/recondition
>>>      
>> batteries here.  
>>    
>>> Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd
>>>      
>> like to buy a charger or two
>>    
>>> (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for
>>>      
>> NiMH or NiCD
>>    
>>> chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and
>>>      
>> recondition a fairly wide
>>    
>>> range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA,
>>>      
>> Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
>>    
>>> various sizes).
>>>
>>> I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in
>>>      
>> each category which
>>    
>>> actually makes me feel like the time to dig the
>>>      
>> charger out and use it
>>    
>>> is worth it.
>>>
>>> Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
>>>
>>> -forrest
>>>
>>>    
>>>      
>> I use a hobby charger for this kind of thing. They have all
>> sorts of
>> charge/discharge stuff in them.
>>
>> --
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>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>>    
>
>
>      
>
>  

--

Vapour Forge

Jake Anderson

Project Manager

Mobile:       [phone]

Email:         jake@...

Web Page:  www.vapourforge.com

Your source for custom IT services

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[John Gardner-3]

On 10/17/09, Dr Skip <drskip@...> wrote:
> I've started using the Maha MC-9000 and am very impressed. Many different
> ways
> to set up the cycles, and it seems to have brought quite a few NiMH and NiCd
> cells back to life so far for me.

I'm interested in your experiences - I've had good luck so far with keeping
NiMH cells within 10% of capacity - Most are long in the tooth cells I've
paired up using data from the charger.

Also working a number of Sanyo low discharge cells which, so far, are near
perfect ...

Jack
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[Sean Breheny]

Hi Ling,

I am interested in what you said about the CBA. westmountain.com seems
to be a placeholder site. Do you know what is up with them?

Thanks,

Sean


On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 9:20 PM, SM Ling <ipal11@...> wrote:

> Maha, for NiMH/NiCD batteries that are in standard packaging (AA,AAA, C, D);
>
> For miscellaneous need, I use a clone charger
> < http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12618>
> This charger has limited current and shall take a long time to charge
> big capacity Lead Acid battery.  I have a multi-state charger
> specially for Lead-Acid, and this had paid for itself.
>
> Lately, DX has been very slow in shipment.  But with a simple search,
> you can find alternative sites selling the same item.
>
> You may want to consider a CBA from Westmountain.com.  I mainly use it
> to capture the discharge curve, to confirm the battery that cannot be
> savage anymore, or to prove the end-user that the battery is OK.
>
> Cheers, Ling SM
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Forrest W Christian <forrestc@...> wrote:
>> I keep running across the need to charge/recondition batteries here.
>> Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd like to buy a charger or two
>> (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for NiMH or NiCD
>> chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and recondition a fairly wide
>> range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA, Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
>> various sizes).
>>
>> I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in each category which
>> actually makes me feel like the time to dig the charger out and use it
>> is worth it.
>>
>> Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
>>
>> -forrest
>>
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>
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[SM Ling-2]

Hi Sean,

My bad, suppose to be <http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm>

Cheers, Ling SM

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Sean Breheny <shb7@...> wrote:

> Hi Ling,
>
> I am interested in what you said about the CBA. westmountain.com seems
> to be a placeholder site. Do you know what is up with them?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 9:20 PM, SM Ling <ipal11@...> wrote:
>> Maha, for NiMH/NiCD batteries that are in standard packaging (AA,AAA, C, D);
>>
>> For miscellaneous need, I use a clone charger
>> < http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12618>
>> This charger has limited current and shall take a long time to charge
>> big capacity Lead Acid battery.  I have a multi-state charger
>> specially for Lead-Acid, and this had paid for itself.
>>
>> Lately, DX has been very slow in shipment.  But with a simple search,
>> you can find alternative sites selling the same item.
>>
>> You may want to consider a CBA from Westmountain.com.  I mainly use it
>> to capture the discharge curve, to confirm the battery that cannot be
>> savage anymore, or to prove the end-user that the battery is OK.
>>
>> Cheers, Ling SM
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Forrest W Christian <forrestc@...> wrote:
>>> I keep running across the need to charge/recondition batteries here.
>>> Typically Lead Acid and/or NiMH.   I'd like to buy a charger or two
>>> (probably one for lead acid chemistry, and one for NiMH or NiCD
>>> chemistry) which allows me to test, charge and recondition a fairly wide
>>> range of batteries.   (AGM, GEL, SLA, Flooded, NiMH/NiCD - all in
>>> various sizes).
>>>
>>> I'm willing to pay a bit more, but want something in each category which
>>> actually makes me feel like the time to dig the charger out and use it
>>> is worth it.
>>>
>>> Anyone with a favorite charger like this?
>>>
>>> -forrest
>>>
>>> --
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>>
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[Sean Breheny]

Thanks, Ling. Interestingly, if you click on their HOME link and then
click on the CBA III photo, it takes you to a page which is slightly
different in terms of some of the specs
(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm). I want to use it with 48V
lead-acid systems, and the link you sent me says that it cannot do so,
but the other page (the CBA.htm not CBA_ham.htm) says that it CAN be
used with 48V lead acid batteries.

Sean


On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 3:44 AM, SM Ling <ipal11@...> wrote:
> Hi Sean,
>
> My bad, suppose to be <http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm>
>
> Cheers, Ling SM
>
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[Dr Skip]

I've done over a dozen cells so far. These have been sitting around for 5-10
yrs, some Nicd, some NimH. As low as 0.1v to start. I was using a Maha MH-C777+
and it wouldn't even detect polarity they were so bad. So far the worst result
has been 90% of the rated mAh written on the cell after one cycle. Most have
come out better. The best results are with the ~40 hour 'break in' cycle. It
does 0.1C for 16 hours, then discharge, then another 0.1C charge.

You can also set manual charge and discharge rates as well as number of cycles
and just let 'er rip. It will remember the stats on the final 12 cycles for you
  afterward. It uses the usual delta V and delta T methods.

There will probably be ones it won't bring back, but I've got a whole shelf of
very old ones that it seems to be working wonders for. I would discharge (it
has a discharge-only cycle too) any failures and run the cycle a few more times
though before giving up.

With it, I can even set a discharge rate and see how much I get out of it for
high current applications ahead of time, saving some pain when going to use
some of these with hidden problems developing inside. ;)

-Skip

John Gardner wrote:

> I'm interested in your experiences - I've had good luck so far with keeping
> NiMH cells within 10% of capacity - Most are long in the tooth cells I've
> paired up using data from the charger.
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[John Gardner-3]

The oldest cells I've put back to use are Sanyo AAs with 1998 dates
written on them (by me) at time of purchase. Also have some with no dates
I believe I acquired in '96, but not sure - They're all Sanyo Industrial cells.

Ive been spoiled, though, by Sanyo's remarkable Low
Self-Discharge NiMH cells. I bought several packs of AAs & AAAs along
with the charger (2 years ago last July IIRC) - They are all in daily service,
all still within 10% of nominal specs.

I've since bought more - They do well in single-AA LED flashlights,
which avoids the reverse-charging damage frequently seen in such
applications.

Jack
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[SM Ling-2]

No problem.  I was speed reading through, likely they have updated the
page (or cache is refreshed somewhere), both pages say about the same
thing to me: do up to 55V.

If you do use it, choose a good USB cable and port, I got to repeat
some long tests when the communication broke due to flaky connection.

Ling SM


On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Sean Breheny <shb7@...> wrote:

> Thanks, Ling. Interestingly, if you click on their HOME link and then
> click on the CBA III photo, it takes you to a page which is slightly
> different in terms of some of the specs
> (http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm). I want to use it with 48V
> lead-acid systems, and the link you sent me says that it cannot do so,
> but the other page (the CBA.htm not CBA_ham.htm) says that it CAN be
> used with 48V lead acid batteries.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 3:44 AM, SM Ling <ipal11@...> wrote:
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> My bad, suppose to be <http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm>
>>
>> Cheers, Ling SM
>>
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[Russell McMahon-4]

Query summary:      The Maha MC9000 (~=MH-C9000?) NimH/NiCd battery
charger/reconditioner recently recommended here looks somewhat like what I
want. Use is to cycle new NimH AA cells to check their long term capacity
trends.

PC  interface would be useful. Ability to charge for preset time would be
useful.
Both can be lived without.

Can anyone suggest other chargers which may suit my purpose?

___________________________

I'd been about to "roll my own" battery cycling unit as I wasn't aware of
anything available locally at a sensible price (or even at a non-sensible
one).
But   this:

> From: Dr Skip <drskip@...>
> I've started using the Maha MC-9000 and am very impressed. Many different
ways
> to set up the cycles, and it seems to have brought quite a few NiMH and
NiCd
> cells back to life so far for me.

led me to discover that the Maha MH-C9000 is available here for $NZ114 ~=
$US85.
Manual here: http://www.mahaenergy.com/download/mhc9000.pdf

While limited, it seems to do most of what I want. Remote data access would
have been nice, but is not essential, and I can add a 'lash-up' interface
that meets my needs if I wish.Main add on need is to monitor cycles and
possibly to switch from charge to discharge mode after a set charging
period.

Can anyone suggest anything else that does similarly well or better.
Substantially more cost may be acceptable if it has enough extra features.
Main aims 1. and 2. below.
Brief dream-spec outline at end.
_________

"Charge" below refers to coulombic capacity - ie mAh. Voltage along the way
during charge and discharge is interesting but less relevant to me.

Cell ~~= battery ~~= cell.

Processor interface (USB, serial, ... would be very nice but is not
essential)

My aim is to

1. Cycle sets of new NimH batteries / cells at controlled charge and
discharge rates to observe initial capacity and changes in capacity with
cycles of use. Charge to - delta V (preferably not to gross thermal rise)
and discharge at defined voltage to defined* voltage endpoint would do for
this test.
A standard charger will do well enough for this. "Little things" like
ambient temperature can be addressed external to the charger.

2.  Charge at defined rate for defined period so as to convey an amount of
charge no more than the battery's nominal capacity, and then discharge at
defined rate to defined end point voltage and track capacity. This varies
from a standard  cycle in that the battery is provided with no more charge
than a 100% efficient cell would require. The aim is to determine the
coulombic efficiency of the cells under various charge and discharge
conditions and with increasing cycle times.

eg if I have a 2000 mAh cell and charge it at C/5 = 400 mA for *4* hours and
discharge it at 200 mA until it reaches 1V loaded, what does the capacity
variation look like with time.

I anticipate that most chargers will not be able to meet this requirement
and that a 'roll you own' will probably have to follow - possibly by
'fooling' an MH-C9000 or similar. (eg thermal pulse to sensor at end of
defined charging period


[[This measure is of relatively little importance when abundant energy is
available and the cell energy content is of low value. eg it takes under 3
Watt-hour of energy to charge a 2000 mAh NimH cell. The energy cost the
energy content using mains energy at say $US0.20/ kWh is thus around $0.05.
ie you can charge 2000 such cells with $1 of electricity. At Chinese
wholesale factory prices the amortised cost of the cell with a cycle life of
500 cycles (optimistic for rapid deep discharge, realistic under some
scenarios)  is about $US0.002 or 4 x the energy costs. At US retail battery
costs the ratio is higher. In areas where mains energy costs are not so high
the battery cycle cost still predominates for mains charging. Where total
cost per cycle matters much then LiFePO4 look very attractive - as long as
their limitations
are acceptable (the most likely show stopper is temperature range in some
modes in extreme conditions).

Where energy is limited or extremely expensive (off grid solar etc where
energy needs exceed availability) then coulombic charge efficiency can
matter greatly. LiFePO4 can start at 99.5% and improve slightly with cycles
(although cell capacity drops). Note this is coulombic efficiency and NOT
energy efficiency - as charge voltage is not constant during the charge and
discharge cycle and internal losses will affect this. When it comes to NimH
cells not much is available on coulombic efficincy, what is available is
inconsistent, and typical claims are wrong - as relatively simple analysis
of the charging curves shows. (Discharge coulombic efficiency can be
arbitrarily defined as 100% at a given discharge rate (you get out
everything that you get out) and any inefficincies attributed to the charge
cycle. Standard charging recommendations fior NimH often specify something
like 40% coulombic overcharge, which is manifestly excessive, but safe
enough if maximum battery cycles is not a priority. With manufacturers it is
probably often not :-) !

________________

Summary dream charger/discharger spec:

- Charge at selected linear current rate 0 - 2A+
- Extra points for charge current profiling.

- Discharge at selected current rate 0- 2A+ OR
- Discharge at constant energy rate OR
- Discharge at user defineable load curve.

- Terminate charge on any mix of -dV, +dT, Temp, Time on charge, terminal
voltage.

- Terminate discharge on any of Vbat, time of discharge.

- Flexible charge / discharge cycling.

- Various conditioning and charging algorithms as per MH-C9000.

- Monitor and record charge and discharge capacities per cycle.

- Upload port (USB or serial or ... )

- Real time upload of current & voltage per cell and general stats "nice"

- Remote ability to control processes as required "nice" eg PC control..


         Russell



- Apologies for all the 'defined"s - starting to sound like a patent
document.
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[Russell McMahon-4]

Early models of Maha MH-C9000 sound to have been very problem prone.
Also appears to have been fixed with time AND they honour their 3 year
warranty.

Entertaining report of a NZ user who had to send back 3 units with different
problems until they got it right


http://www.videofoundry.co.nz/ianman/laboratory/research/battery_mh-c9000.shtml

Serial number should be OGOE01 or later.

Same site has some good material and links on rechargeable batteries.

 Russell
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[Lee Jones]

> Query summary: The Maha MC9000 (~=MH-C9000?) NimH/NiCd battery
> charger/reconditioner recently recommended here looks somewhat
> like what I want. Use is to cycle new NimH AA cells to check
> their long term capacity trends.

> Can anyone suggest other chargers which may suit my purpose?

La Crosse Technology BC-700 or BC-900 chargers or BC-9009 kit.
They appear to all be the same charger.  Kit includes 4 x AA &
4 x AAA batteries plus AA to C and C to D adapters plus case.

Charger has 4 slots, each holds 1 AA or 1 AAA battery.  LCD has
4 positions to display information for that slot; you can cycle
through voltage, current, time elapsed, and mAH injected/used.
(I believe Maha C9000 LCD has 1 position and you have to cycle
 through all 4 slots to get data for 4 batteries under charge.)

I have a couple BC-900's used mainly for charging NiMH batteries.
Charge current is adjustable -- given the time I have available
before I need a set of batteries, I adjust to minimize stress on
the cells or to minimize time to recharge.  Currents available
are 200mA, 500mA, 700mA, 1A, & 1.8A if my memory is correct.
When cell is fully charged, it switches to 20mA trickle.

They also can measure actual mAH which I use occasionally to
monitor cell status.  And there's a reconditioning cycle which
I've used and seems to work.

La Crosse BC-900 charger is physically smaller than Maha C9000.

Amazon: Maha MH-C9000 is US$55; La Crosse BC-700 charger is
US$30 and BC-9009 kit is US$40.

I'm happy with my BC-900 chargers; AA batteries are decent too.

I have not had any hands-on contact with a Maha C9000 but I have
wanted to do a comparison between them -- just too little time.

                                                Lee

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[arocholl]

Russell,

Try Schulze chargers, they are high end, very reliable and really sound
algorithms inside (maybe overkill for your requirements, not sure though).
Not sure what is your price range, try this distributor (close to you?) for
more info http://www.modelflight.com.au/schulze_battery_chargers.htm
If this is overkill, consider Hyperion chargers as next best option (
www.aircraft-world.com for instance)
2009/10/26 Russell McMahon apptechnz@...

>
> Can anyone suggest other chargers which may suit my purpose?
>
>
> Cheers,
Ariel Rocholl
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