Brakes

[nordschleife]

I am the original owner of a '96 Trophy 1200 with 30,000 miles. It is by far my favorite bike among the 8 that I own. I have had only one recurring problem that, inspite, of a change of everything related to it, I still can't cure; that is, that the front brake always requires a few pumps to bring the lever up to a solid feel. Without the pump, the lever can travel almost to the grip without much brake action.

Pads have been changed long before they really needed to be,  bleeding has been done, we've replaced the master cylinder. Rotors are in spec. We've always used OEM parts. Any suggestions?
LK

[john tabberer]

Are the hoses in good condition? if the hoses have a week spot, you might be pumping that up, before getting pressure.
 
john

--- On Wed, 4/11/09, nordschleife <chevronb36@...> wrote:


From: nordschleife <chevronb36@...>
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Brakes
To: TriumphTrophy@...
Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 4:06 PM


 



I am the original owner of a '96 Trophy 1200 with 30,000 miles. It is by far my favorite bike among the 8 that I own. I have had only one recurring problem that, inspite, of a change of everything related to it, I still can't cure; that is, that the front brake always requires a few pumps to bring the lever up to a solid feel. Without the pump, the lever can travel almost to the grip without much brake action.

Pads have been changed long before they really needed to be, bleeding has been done, we've replaced the master cylinder. Rotors are in spec. We've always used OEM parts. Any suggestions?
LK

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Poppa Jack]

Hey Bud,
   I fixed that problem, by going to a local hydraulics shop. Take  
your old set, and Get them "Braided stainless steel", and a couple  
inches longer. In case you want to change bars, or get risers. It's  
the stainless wrapped lines. they don't expand with pressure, as  
rubber or plastic does.
   Kindest regards,
    Poppa Jack
On Nov 4, 2009, at 8:06 AM, nordschleife wrote:

> I am the original owner of a '96 Trophy 1200 with 30,000 miles. It  
> is by far my favorite bike among the 8 that I own. I have had only  
> one recurring problem that, inspite, of a change of everything  
> related to it, I still can't cure; that is, that the front brake  
> always requires a few pumps to bring the lever up to a solid feel.  
> Without the pump, the lever can travel almost to the grip without  
> much brake action.
>
> Pads have been changed long before they really needed to be,  
> bleeding has been done, we've replaced the master cylinder. Rotors  
> are in spec. We've always used OEM parts. Any suggestions?
> LK
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jacques, Martin, VF-Group]

LK,

Unfortunately I can imagine a number of things it *could* be. Possibly a slight leak in a caliper seal or at the caliper banjo bolts, but I would imagine you would see evidence of fluid leak.

When you bled the brakes, did you crack open the m/cyl banjo bolt slightly to ensure the m/cyl was bled? Does sound like there is still some air in the lines. Changing the lines is probably wise, as others have suggested.

Might be worth doing the reasonably common upgrade to 6-pot Tokico calipers. The generic calipers fitted to all sorts of ZX7Rs, ZX9Rs, early K1/K2 GSXRs, most Hayabusas, ZRX1200s etc, etc are a straight swap onto the Trophy and a very worthwhile upgrade.

I paid £110 for mine, from an 06 'Busa.

Martin.

[john tabberer]

Hi Martin,
was that the custom modified 06 Busa with the shortened wheelbase and impact enhanced fork angle?
 
John

--- On Wed, 4/11/09, mjj_zx6rr <martin.jacques@...> wrote:


From: mjj_zx6rr <martin.jacques@...>
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Brakes
To: TriumphTrophy@...
Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 9:27 PM


 



LK,

Unfortunately I can imagine a number of things it *could* be. Possibly a slight leak in a caliper seal or at the caliper banjo bolts, but I would imagine you would see evidence of fluid leak.

When you bled the brakes, did you crack open the m/cyl banjo bolt slightly to ensure the m/cyl was bled? Does sound like there is still some air in the lines. Changing the lines is probably wise, as others have suggested.

Might be worth doing the reasonably common upgrade to 6-pot Tokico calipers. The generic calipers fitted to all sorts of ZX7Rs, ZX9Rs, early K1/K2 GSXRs, most Hayabusas, ZRX1200s etc, etc are a straight swap onto the Trophy and a very worthwhile upgrade.

I paid £110 for mine, from an 06 'Busa.

Martin.









     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Robert rawson]

Hi guys,

Interesting comments there as this has just happened to me too. Sadly I do not have a solution for you but the symptoms are the same as mine.

I have just removed both calipers and replaced them with Tokico 6 pots (bargain at £45 on eBay, but then nobody else bid on them) but the problem is still there indicating its not the caliper. I must admit i did not bleed the master cylinder at the banjo. When bleeding I had non return self bleed kits as used on cars which seemed to work fine on the rear. I was bleeding by topping up the caliper, replacing the rubber seal and loosely fitting the cap of the m cyl. Is the right way to do it, or can i do it without replacing the seal.?

I also read an article where it suggested you bled as far as you can and then cable tie the lever open and leave the brakes overnight to enable air to escape through the cylinder. I did this and thought I had cracked it but on a ride later it was apparent i hadn't.

I am interested to read other solutions to this as i know my discs pistons and seals to be OK but I just cannot get the air out


Regards

Robert
Platinum BBBB
UK


Unfortunately I can imagine a number of things it *could* be. Possibly a slight leak in a caliper seal or at the caliper banjo bolts, but I would imagine you would see evidence of fluid leak.

When you bled the brakes, did you crack open the m/cyl banjo bolt slightly to ensure the m/cyl was bled? Does sound like there is still some air in the lines. Changing the lines is probably wise, as others have suggested.

Might be worth doing the reasonably common upgrade to 6-pot Tokico calipers. The generic calipers fitted to all sorts of ZX7Rs, ZX9Rs, early K1/K2 GSXRs, most Hayabusas, ZRX1200s etc, etc are a straight swap onto the Trophy and a very worthwhile upgrade.

I paid £110 for mine, from an 06 'Busa.

Martin.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bob Clark-2]

In other vehicles such as my aircraft, Brake hoses are life limited to 7
years. And they don't have anywhere near the use or the UV exposure
compared to my Trophy. I'm not surprised people are starting to have
issues with hoses. I expect I will soon also  Robert, do you have a
"Power Bleeder"   Many times I have had more success bleeding up from
the caliper.  Just be sure that your tank is off of the bike and
everything else is covered.  Brake fluid will destroy the finish in seconds.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL

[philipwallington]

For what it's worth - I've had reasonable success bleeding the brakes (and the clutch) in reverse. With the comparative small displacement of the master cylinders and the height difference, getting all the air out through the nipple is always going to be difficult. I use a syringe on the bleed nipple and push fluid in through the caliper and up into the reservoir - the small bubbles wamt to go up so why fight them - obviously you need to remove fluid from the reservoir first and watch how much you push through - but it's worked well every time I've done it.

Learnt my lesson many years ago on car drum brakes with 2 slave cylinders - fluid feed into the top one and bleed out of the bottom one - pain in the ****.

Anyway - as I said - for what it's worth - works for me

Philip

[SATrident]

Like others have said a change in brake lines is probably a good idea, however I also believe that the trouble is air in the lines.

Swelling lines will generally give a slight delay and spongyness to the braking application and reduce the overall braking performance. Whereas air in the lines will require pumping to compress the air.

I had a clutch line on a truck that I couldn't get the air out of, I ended up putting brake fluid in a garden spray unit, pressurising it and attaching it to the slave cylinder so that I could bleed from the top.

Philip W's idea of using a syringe filled with fluid attached to the bleed screw with plastic hose and gently bleeding upwards sounds like a great idea to me.  But as someone else pointed out protect the fairing and tank etc from brake fluid, and just go very gently and you should be right.

Have a good one

Mark (Fennells)

[Robert rawson]

  Good morning and thanks for the reply.

No I do not have a power bleeder and presumably you are talking about the ones used by mechanics at dealerships. Bleeding is such a rare occasion I have never felt the need having only one bike and one car. I may consider the syringe approach though but again controversial as some say push up (back) and some say push through (down)

I think to be fair, at 10 years old and 45K on the clock maybe its time to renew the brake lines and banjos, after all brakes are a safety issue so would rather replace them.

I have winter servicing coming up and not cheap by a long chalk this year

New sprocket and chain
replacement front and rear rotors
Replacement caliper seals/pistons?
Shims
Airbox
Carb Overhall

I estimate well over a £1000 for all I need doing but then after that good for many years to come

Robert
UK
Platinum BBBB



<I expect I will soon also Robert, do you have a
"Power Bleeder" Many times I have had more success bleeding up from
the caliper. Just be sure that your tank is off of the bike and
everything else is covered. Brake fluid will destroy the finish in seconds.>

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Johnson-3]

I've heard all the war stories about touch the headlight bulbs with bare
hands. Would rubber gloves solve this problem?
Ed J.

[ondrej_sestak-2]

Hi,
I have relatively new related experience - I've bought new H4 bulbs and mounted them without gloves (...horrible task).
After 1 week of riding one of the bulb lights no more....- seems OK, but that's all.

> ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
> Od: Ed Johnson <edljohnson2@...>
> Předmět: [TriumphTrophy] Trophy Headlight replacement
> Datum: 05.11.2009 10:56:45
> ----------------------------------------
> I've heard all the war stories about touch the headlight bulbs with bare
> hands. Would rubber gloves solve this problem?
> Ed J.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------

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[philipwallington]

Hi Robert - all I would say on the subject of push back (up)or push through (down), particularly if you have the circuits empty, is - don't fight gravity - it tends to win more than it loses. Refilling from the lowest point tends to avoid small air bubbles being formed and getting stuck. If you fill from top down, whenever you stop the fluid moving, any bubbles in the feed pipe down to the caliper will simply float back up - can make for a very frustrating time.

2 tips - never try and suck through with a syringe - if you pull any vacuum I've had air going in past the seals. And when you have refilled and dont see bubbles coming into the reservoir - just finish off with a conventional pumped bleed down through the caliper in case there is a small bubble hiding in the top between the banjo coupling and the nipple.

As I said before - my experience, for what it's worth.

Philip

[philipwallington]

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
>
> I've heard all the war stories about touch the headlight bulbs with bare
> hands. Would rubber gloves solve this problem?
> Ed J.
>

Hi Ed - yes, it's true - the natural oils in your skin will react with the quartz glass and cause premature failure of the bulb. Clean rubber gloves should prevent it, unless you have contaminated the outside of them by handling of course - normally people wear gloves to protect their hands inside and forget about what's on the outside of them!!

I tend to use a clean piece of cloth to wrap the glass. If you do touch it with you 'dangerous' bare skin then wash the glass with an alcohol cleaner like IPA.

Philip

[Rod Gill]

Hi Guys,
Apparently our local mechanic has had this problem with trophy brakes before. He solves the proble by removing callipers, lifting them  as high as possible, then bleeding. He says it is the splitter that is the problem.
Hope this helps.
Rod  




________________________________
From: Robert rawson <OfficerRawson@...>
To: TriumphTrophy@...
Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 22:29:25
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Brakes

 
Hi guys,

Interesting comments there as this has just happened to me too. Sadly I do not have a solution for you but the symptoms are the same as mine.

I have just removed both calipers and replaced them with Tokico 6 pots (bargain at £45 on eBay, but then nobody else bid on them) but the problem is still there indicating its not the caliper. I must admit i did not bleed the master cylinder at the banjo. When bleeding I had non return self bleed kits as used on cars which seemed to work fine on the rear. I was bleeding by topping up the caliper, replacing the rubber seal and loosely fitting the cap of the m cyl. Is the right way to do it, or can i do it without replacing the seal.?

I also read an article where it suggested you bled as far as you can and then cable tie the lever open and leave the brakes overnight to enable air to escape through the cylinder. I did this and thought I had cracked it but on a ride later it was apparent i hadn't.

I am interested to read other solutions to this as i know my discs pistons and seals to be OK but I just cannot get the air out

Regards

Robert
Platinum BBBB
UK

Unfortunately I can imagine a number of things it *could* be. Possibly a slight leak in a caliper seal or at the caliper banjo bolts, but I would imagine you would see evidence of fluid leak.

When you bled the brakes, did you crack open the m/cyl banjo bolt slightly to ensure the m/cyl was bled? Does sound like there is still some air in the lines. Changing the lines is probably wise, as others have suggested.

Might be worth doing the reasonably common upgrade to 6-pot Tokico calipers. The generic calipers fitted to all sorts of ZX7Rs, ZX9Rs, early K1/K2 GSXRs, most Hayabusas, ZRX1200s etc, etc are a straight swap onto the Trophy and a very worthwhile upgrade.

I paid £110 for mine, from an 06 'Busa.

Martin.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Robert rawson]

Hi Guys,

You may have something there as when i was preparing the 6-pot Tokico calipers to go on, I mounted an old clutch master cylinder I have laying around in the vice with some old brake line and plumbed them in so i could push the pistons out to make it easier to remove them after splitting the calipers.  This is far easier if they are still on the bike of course but they weren't. They  bled like a breeze on the work bench but on the bike, no way hosay! Did the same for the original calipers after i had replaced them with minimal effort.

I am pretty sure there is not a splitter on my system though. I have one line from the master cylinder and a double banjo on the right caliper and a line to the left caliper from that. The bike has been like that since i bought it in 2002 as the second owner.

I bought some brake lines off ebay years ago as i had a knackered brake lever after the bike falling over and it came complete with master cylinder with lever attached and brake lines. I noticed they had a splitter and assumed them to be off an earlier model that's all and ignored it.  I never replaced the lines as the length is slightly shorter but that would be right if the splitter was in place. I have touch wood never had a problem until now 8 years on.

I may plumb in these lines to the bike to test the brakes if nothing else and if it bleeds ok i know it is a defective line. If that is the case i will just replace with new ones.

Has anyone else got this configuration or any other for that matter. I know Mik in Scotland has 2 x goodridge lines connected on a double banjo at the master cylinder feeding each caliper independently.

Newsflash

I have just read the parts catalogue prior to posting this and the splitter  was fitted  up to VIN 71698 and no splitter and the config as mine thereafter.

Regards

Robert





 
From: Rod Gill


  Hi Guys,
Apparently our local mechanic has had this problem with trophy brakes before. He solves the proble by removing callipers, lifting them  as high as possible, then bleeding. He says it is the splitter that is the problem.
Hope this helps.
Rod  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]