Bug #164774

[Christopher Howard-3]

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http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774

Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to make
it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image rulers.
However, it looks like the last comment was made about three years ago.
Since I'm new around here, I was wondering if there had been any
relevant discussion on the issue recently. (Or related discussion.)

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[Martin Nordholts-2]

On 08/04/2009 01:29 AM, Christopher Howard wrote:

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> Hash: SHA1
>
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774
>
> Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to make
> it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image rulers.
> However, it looks like the last comment was made about three years ago.
> Since I'm new around here, I was wondering if there had been any
> relevant discussion on the issue recently. (Or related discussion.)

Hi,

There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The
first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps
fulfill the product vision [1].

BR,
Martin

[1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

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[SHIRAKAWA Akira]

Martin Nordholts wrote:

> There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The
> first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps
> fulfill the product vision [1].

As left clicking and dragging with the mouse creates new freely movable
guides (left click-drag the upper ruler for horizontal guides, left
click-drag the left ruler for vertical guides), I suggest that clicking
and dragging the rulers (left-right for the upper one, up-down for the
vertical one) with another mouse button (for example middle or right)
could move their respective origin (zero point).

Then, another option in the "Image" menu and below "Configure
Guides...", called "Configure Rulers...", could be added for more
precise ruler option settings (I was thinking not only the origin, but
also font, style, number of notches, etc, if it's possible).

But this is just my 2-minutes brainstorm.

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[Christopher Howard-3]

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Martin Nordholts wrote:

> On 08/04/2009 01:29 AM, Christopher Howard wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774
>>
>> Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to make
>> it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image rulers.
>> However, it looks like the last comment was made about three years ago.
>> Since I'm new around here, I was wondering if there had been any
>> relevant discussion on the issue recently. (Or related discussion.)
>
> Hi,
>
> There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The
> first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps
> fulfill the product vision [1].
>
> BR,
> Martin
>
> [1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision
>

Maybe it would help get more people to chime in if I summarized what has
been going on:

Four years ago, a user submitted a feature request (bug #164774) asking
for the developers to make it possible for users to be able to set the
zero-points of the ruler. In other words, the user could have the rulers
tell him that point 0,0 begins at, say, the center of the image, instead
of the top-left. This is a feature which would be useful to web
developers and perhaps also game sprite developers.

Back then, none of the developers really had time to look into it. Now,
however, I am looking at it as a possible project. In and of itself, it
doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to modify the basic
gimpruler widget code to handle the offsets.

However, I also see that there are other parts of the User Interface
that display coordinates, including the box at the bottom left of the
main window, and several tools such as the measuring tool. So the
question I asked was: if it is possible to have an offset in the rulers,
should all these components be in sync with the rulers?

All the developers I've communicated with so far have said that not only
should all the components be working well together, but that this whole
issue should be discussed on the developers list from the perspective of
user interface considerations.

This e-mail is my attempt to start such a discussion.

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[Liam R E Quin]

On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 17:45 -0800, Christopher Howard wrote:
> [...]

> . In other words, the user could have the rulers
> tell him that point 0,0 begins at, say, the center of the image, instead
> of the top-left. This is a feature which would be useful to web
> developers and perhaps also game sprite developers.

A sufficiently discoverable and also precise way to do that might be to
have a context (pop-up) menu on the rulers, with items such as,
  "add new guide" (same as dragging a guide out)
  "set ruler zero-point to here"
  "0 is on the left (default)"
  "0 is on the right"
  "units >" (submenu)
  "[v]  show guides"



> However, I also see that there are other parts of the User Interface
> that display coordinates, including the box at the bottom left of the
> main window, and several tools such as the measuring tool. So the
> question I asked was: if it is possible to have an offset in the rulers,
> should all these components be in sync with the rulers?

Seems to me 0,0 is always going to be the top left corner of the image.
There's no way to have multiple coordinate systems without confusing
anyone not of a mathematical bent. It sounds like they should all work
together, but that would mean moving the origin of the image itself,
which might confuse scripts (e.g. they don't expect data at negative
coordinates I think) and might affect layer offsets when files are
exported.  So it should only be a "view" thing, and then it doesn't
need to be the same as the coordinates elsewhere, perhaps?

Liam


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[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 17:45 -0800, Christopher Howard wrote:

> However, I also see that there are other parts of the User Interface
> that display coordinates, including the box at the bottom left of the
> main window, and several tools such as the measuring tool. So the
> question I asked was: if it is possible to have an offset in the rulers,
> should all these components be in sync with the rulers?

IMO all places that show coordinates need to be adjusted. Otherwise it
will be a total mess. Of course the actual image origin will still be 0,
0. We are just talking about the user interface parts that display
coordinates. The core shouldn't know about this.


Sven


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[peter sikking]

On 5 Aug 2009, at 7:39, Martin Nordholts wrote:

I am only a month late...

> On 08/04/2009 01:29 AM, Christopher Howard wrote:
>> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774
>>
>> Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to  
>> make
>> it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image  
>> rulers.
>
> There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The
> first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps
> fulfill the product vision [1].

one way that is in use in graphics apps and which I diagnose as
being pretty good is:

grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it
anywhere on the canvas.

the dragging around needs to auto-scroll the
canvas just as dragging guides does (it does, does it?).
also while dragging the coordinates of the bottom left corner of square
(hmmm, do our rulers go r-to-l for r-to-l locales?)
that is dragged around c.v. the up-to-then origin needs to be displayed.

it would not be bad to comply with 'snap to canvas edge' when set.
somehow it feels wrong to me to snap to guides for this action.

     --ps

         founder + principal interaction architect
             man + machine interface works

         http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture





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[peter sikking]

second try sending this...

Liam wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 00:00 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
> [///]
>> grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it
>> anywhere on the canvas.
> the place that currently gives a pop-up menu?


damn. yes.

can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar  
right
below the menu bar?

    --ps

        founder + principal interaction architect
            man + machine interface works

        http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[David Gowers]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, peter sikking <peter@...> wrote:

> second try sending this...
>
> Liam wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 00:00 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
>> [///]
>>> grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it
>>> anywhere on the canvas.
>> the place that currently gives a pop-up menu?
>
>
> damn. yes.
>
> can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar
> right
> below the menu bar?
>

The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not.
(being that it belongs to the rulers)
Not that that is a good reason. I think it's confusing being able to
access menus 3 different ways, and the tiny icon is really not very
easy to click.
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[Simon Budig]

David Gowers (00ai99@...) wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, peter sikking <peter@...> wrote:
> > can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar
> > right below the menu bar?
>
> The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not.

Well, it has been introduced in the times where there was *no* menubar
and tablet-users (with no RMB) needed a way to invoke the menu.

Bye,
         Simon

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[peter sikking]

Simon Budig wrote:
> David Gowers wrote:
>> peter sikking wrote:
>>> can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar
>>> right below the menu bar?
>>
>> The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not.
>
> Well, it has been introduced in the times where there was *no* menubar
> and tablet-users (with no RMB) needed a way to invoke the menu.


so now on the one hand there is the impression that this is legacy UI
(aka old cruft) but on the other hand I am reluctant just to drive
a bulldozer over it.

it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff would
be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to
be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there,
to create a chance of having a clean image window and be able to  
create guides.

     --ps

         founder + principal interaction architect
             man + machine interface works

         http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[Michael J. Hammel]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 20:43 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
> it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff would
> be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to
> be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there,

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by
Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?

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[peter sikking]

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 20:43 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
>> it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff  
>> would
>> be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to
>> be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there,
>
> Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide  
> (by
> Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?

being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there'
by feeling using your expert eye.

     --ps

         founder + principal interaction architect
             man + machine interface works

         http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[Michael J. Hammel]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
> Michael J. Hammel wrote:
> > Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide  
> > (by
> > Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?
>
> being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there'
> by feeling using your expert eye.

You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.
Ruler visibility has be to toggled (when working in a "clean window")
but I would say that's less complex and more intuitive than overloading
keyboard/mouse combinations.  Rotating guides after creation is a
separate matter related to guide management, not guide creation.

I don't think current guide creation is complex enough (even when aiming
for a "clean window") to warrant separation from rulers, IMHO.

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[peter sikking]

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
>> Michael J. Hammel wrote:
>>> Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide
>>> (by
>>> Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?
>>
>> being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there'
>> by feeling using your expert eye.
>
> You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.

I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

     --ps

         founder + principal interaction architect
             man + machine interface works

         http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[Chris Mohler]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 5:09 PM, peter sikking <peter@...> wrote:

> Michael J. Hammel wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
>>> Michael J. Hammel wrote:
>>>> Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide
>>>> (by
>>>> Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?
>>>
>>> being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there'
>>> by feeling using your expert eye.
>>
>> You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.
>
>
> I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly
want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.

However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well -
something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click
on the window and get a new guide.  Maybe some sort of modifier to
toggle/go horizontal/vertical?  Seems like part of the code would
already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...

0.02
Chris
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[Michael J. Hammel]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 17:50 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
> I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly
> want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.
>
> However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well -
> something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click
> on the window and get a new guide.  Maybe some sort of modifier to
> toggle/go horizontal/vertical?  Seems like part of the code would
> already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...

This is actually the point I'm trying to make.  How is any key/mouse
combination going to be any more intuitive/less complex than dragging
from a ruler?  Decoupling adds complexity (at a minimum forcing users to
learn a new process, but probably worse than that) for the sake of
cleanliness (re: being able to hide the rulers), but I don't think the
trade offs are worth it.

In other words, I don't see that remembering something like
"Ctrl-Alt-Shift-R right mouse click" is any improvement over "view
ruler, drag guide from ruler, hide ruler" (assuming this only applies to
situations where the canvas is not showing the rulers in the first
place) especially when the latter is possible with one hand and one
finger.  Yes, simpler keyboard modifiers are possible but most are
already taken and it may not be so easy to assign a meaningful one to
this particular process.

So, again IMHO, the effort required to change this is hardly worth the
benefit gained by its implementation, especially when the result may not
(arguably) be an improvement in the UI.

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[Chris Mohler]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Michael J. Hammel
<mjhammel@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 17:50 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
>> I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly
>> want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.
>>
>> However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well -
>> something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click
>> on the window and get a new guide.  Maybe some sort of modifier to
>> toggle/go horizontal/vertical?  Seems like part of the code would
>> already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...
>
> This is actually the point I'm trying to make.  How is any key/mouse
> combination going to be any more intuitive/less complex than dragging
> from a ruler?  Decoupling adds complexity (at a minimum forcing users to
> learn a new process, but probably worse than that) for the sake of
> cleanliness (re: being able to hide the rulers), but I don't think the
> trade offs are worth it.

Well, I don't think so either.  I find the method of dragging from the
ruler to be quite intuitive already.  Then again, I was trained since
PS 2.0 (or thereabouts) that guides come from rulers - so I might be
biased ;)  But if ui team is determined to find a way to add guides
w/o rulers, then a kb shortcut is the way I'd go - that's all I had to
say :)

Chris
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[RobA]

> In other words, I don't see that remembering something like
> "Ctrl-Alt-Shift-R right mouse click" is any improvement over "view
> ruler, drag guide from ruler, hide ruler" (assuming this only applies to
> situations where the canvas is not showing the rulers in the first
> place) especially when the latter is possible with one hand and one
> finger.  Yes, simpler keyboard modifiers are possible but most are
> already taken and it may not be so easy to assign a meaningful one to
> this particular process.
>

And there is already Shift-Ctrl-R ro toggle rulers!  So hotkey, drag, hotkey.

-Rob A>
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[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:09 AM, peter sikking wrote:

>> You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.
>
> I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

Indeed it can be done. Scribus for one has a Manage Guides dialog that allows:

1. Adding/Removing single h/v guides with Astonishing Precision (C)(R) :)
2. Adding/Removing h/v guides in rows and columns
3. Removing guides from current/all pages

However removing drag-a-guide-from-ruler functionality will lead to
bugreports that will basically boil down to something in the lines of
"Are you crazy? GIMP doesn't have such a simple thing?". Creating a
guide by dragging it from a ruler is really one of the habits that
won't die any time soon. And there is no proof it should, is there? :)

Alexandre
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