C clone of Tomboy for Maemo

[Cornelius Hald]

Hi All,

I'm currently writing a Tomboy clone in C, targeting the embedded
Maemo[1] platform. The reason is, that I want the great Tomboy
functionality on my internet tablet (Nokia N810). I really would love to
use the original Tomboy-Maemo[2] port, but unfortunately the startup
time is too long (about 15 seconds) and the memory consumption of mono
is too high for having it always run in the background. This device has
only 128 MB Ram...

The project is far from finished, but it is already possible to read,
write and display notes which are compatible with Tomboy 0.12.0 from my
desktop machine.

I hope to be able to make a first release at the end of this week, but
first I have some questions, where you hopefully can help me with:

1) Is there a description of the Tomboy XML format? The link to the
XML-Namespace seems to be dead. I'm asking because I want to make sure
to be compatible with Tomboy. So far I have only a reverse engineered
version and maybe I missed some tags etc...

2) Is the "version" attribute of <note> actively maintained? So is there
some document that describes the XML formats of old versions? And which
version of Tomboy was using which version of the XML file? Version
0.12.0 on my desktop creates version="0.3" documents.

3) I have to choose a name and I came up with "Conboy". C because of the
programming language and the rest has something to do with my name
(*cough*) and with Tomboy of course... As this name is very close to the
name "Tomboy" I thought I should get your OK on that. As I'm not very
creative with names other suggestions are welcome too.

4) Are there other things I should be aware of? Especially concerning
the file format?

Any input is highly welcome :)
Cheers!
Conny


[1] http://www.maemo.org
[2] http://www.mono-project.com/Maemo

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[Sandy Armstrong]

On 03/24/2009 03:13 AM, Cornelius Hald wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm currently writing a Tomboy clone in C, targeting the embedded
> Maemo[1] platform. The reason is, that I want the great Tomboy
> functionality on my internet tablet (Nokia N810). I really would love to
> use the original Tomboy-Maemo[2] port, but unfortunately the startup
> time is too long (about 15 seconds) and the memory consumption of mono
> is too high for having it always run in the background. This device has
> only 128 MB Ram...

I did not realize Mono performance was so bad on Maemo; that's a shame.
  Sounds like your work could be very helpful to some.

> The project is far from finished, but it is already possible to read,
> write and display notes which are compatible with Tomboy 0.12.0 from my
> desktop machine.
>
> I hope to be able to make a first release at the end of this week, but
> first I have some questions, where you hopefully can help me with:
>
> 1) Is there a description of the Tomboy XML format? The link to the
> XML-Namespace seems to be dead. I'm asking because I want to make sure
> to be compatible with Tomboy. So far I have only a reverse engineered
> version and maybe I missed some tags etc...

An XML Namespace URI does not have to be a valid URL, so that is not
supposed to be a link, really.  If you look in our mailing list archives
or in bugzilla, you'll see that some people have worked on a XML schema
which might be helpful...I have yet to review it.

> 2) Is the "version" attribute of<note>  actively maintained? So is there
> some document that describes the XML formats of old versions? And which
> version of Tomboy was using which version of the XML file? Version
> 0.12.0 on my desktop creates version="0.3" documents.

No, we are not documenting that at this time.  There has never been a
need because there has never been another consumer of the note files
that cared.  That being said, new versions usually just add features, so
a parser of 0.1 notes would be able to read 0.3 notes just fine, it just
wouldn't see the note tags and a couple of other things.

> 3) I have to choose a name and I came up with "Conboy". C because of the
> programming language and the rest has something to do with my name
> (*cough*) and with Tomboy of course... As this name is very close to the
> name "Tomboy" I thought I should get your OK on that. As I'm not very
> creative with names other suggestions are welcome too.

Well, to be honest I don't think that's a very good name. :-)  But I'm
not great with names, either.  I'll let you know if anything comes to
mind.  I have no problem with you using "Conboy"...I'll have to think if
it would be a problem for me if you used "CTomboy" or something like that.

> 4) Are there other things I should be aware of? Especially concerning
> the file format?

Add-ins may add undocumented XML tags or attributes.  Keep an eye out
for that sort of thing.

Best,
Sandy
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[Alex Launi]

Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down mono's footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or whatever it ends up being).


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[Sandy Armstrong]

On 03/24/2009 07:12 AM, Alex Launi wrote:
> Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down mono's
> footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or whatever it
> ends up being).

As a follow-up to this, I should mention that memory usage is somewhat
reduced in Tomboy 0.14.0, and we are going to keep hacking away at it.
We don't want people leaving Tomboy off of netbooks (for example)
because of the memory usage and startup performance.

Sandy
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[Cornelius Hald]

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 07:02 -0700, Sandy Armstrong wrote:
> I did not realize Mono performance was so bad on Maemo; that's a shame.
>   Sounds like your work could be very helpful to some.

The runtime performance is really good but the startup time and memory
consumption are a bit high. Of course the maemo port of tomboy is quite
old and probably with a newer version of tomboy and mono it might look
better. Also AOT compilation might help, but it didn't work for me.

> An XML Namespace URI does not have to be a valid URL, so that is not
> supposed to be a link, really.  If you look in our mailing list archives
> or in bugzilla, you'll see that some people have worked on a XML schema
> which might be helpful...I have yet to review it.

You're right of course about the URLs. My fault. I'll look for the XML
schema, it could be very useful for testing my implementation.

> No, we are not documenting that at this time.  There has never been a
> need because there has never been another consumer of the note files
> that cared.  That being said, new versions usually just add features, so
> a parser of 0.1 notes would be able to read 0.3 notes just fine, it just
> wouldn't see the note tags and a couple of other things.

Ok, then I'll just try to keep my eyes open and watch for changes. If
ever someone else will use it, I surely get feedback if something
breaks ;)

> Well, to be honest I don't think that's a very good name. :-)  But I'm
> not great with names, either.  I'll let you know if anything comes to
> mind.  I have no problem with you using "Conboy"...I'll have to think if
> it would be a problem for me if you used "CTomboy" or something like that.

Well, yea... I'll sleep over it, but I'm not sure if I can come up with
something better :) I think something like "CTomboy" is not really an
option, because people might think that it is was made by you (the
Tomboy-Guys) and that it is 100% compatible. But I think that my program
will be more something like Tomboy-Lite (feature-wise). For example I'm
not sure if there will ever be support for plug-ins etc.

> > 4) Are there other things I should be aware of? Especially concerning
> > the file format?
>
> Add-ins may add undocumented XML tags or attributes.  Keep an eye out
> for that sort of thing.

I will. Thank you very much for your input. I very much appreciate
that :)

Cheers!
Conny


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[Cornelius Hald]

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 10:12 -0400, Alex Launi wrote:
> Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down
> mono's footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or
> whatever it ends up being).
>
>
> --
> --Alex Launi

Hi Alex,

if I would be able to do that, it would surely be a good thing.
Unfortunately my C skills are not the best and this project is a way for
me to learn the language a bit more. So I'm afraid, but hacking on a
highly complex virtual machine is just out of my league. At least for
now :)

Anyways, thanks for your input!
Conny


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[Alex Launi]

Sandy- How's this for a summer of code project!


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[Cornelius Hald]

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 07:57 -0700, Sandy Armstrong wrote:

> On 03/24/2009 07:12 AM, Alex Launi wrote:
> > Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down mono's
> > footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or whatever it
> > ends up being).
>
> As a follow-up to this, I should mention that memory usage is somewhat
> reduced in Tomboy 0.14.0, and we are going to keep hacking away at it.
> We don't want people leaving Tomboy off of netbooks (for example)
> because of the memory usage and startup performance.
>
> Sandy

That's good to hear! I really would prefer to use the real thing on the
N810. I'm using Tomboy on my desktop and notebook. I'm sure I also would
use it on my netbook (if I would have one). But IMHO Mono/Tomboy is
still a bit too heavy for the N810. Still, I hope in the not so distant
future I can change from my self-cooked software back to Tomboy and get
all the features and plug-ins for free :)

I wish you all the best!
Conny


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[Sandy Armstrong]

On 03/24/2009 09:51 AM, Cornelius Hald wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 07:57 -0700, Sandy Armstrong wrote:
>> On 03/24/2009 07:12 AM, Alex Launi wrote:
>>> Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down mono's
>>> footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or whatever it
>>> ends up being).
>> As a follow-up to this, I should mention that memory usage is somewhat
>> reduced in Tomboy 0.14.0, and we are going to keep hacking away at it.
>> We don't want people leaving Tomboy off of netbooks (for example)
>> because of the memory usage and startup performance.
>>
>> Sandy
>
> That's good to hear! I really would prefer to use the real thing on the
> N810. I'm using Tomboy on my desktop and notebook. I'm sure I also would
> use it on my netbook (if I would have one). But IMHO Mono/Tomboy is
> still a bit too heavy for the N810. Still, I hope in the not so distant
> future I can change from my self-cooked software back to Tomboy and get
> all the features and plug-ins for free :)

Well, we're always looking for help to fix memory usage and performance
issues.  They're actually fun to track down.  If you feel like helping
with that, it would be very welcome.  :-)

I'm not against new Tomboy clients, though.  I have high hopes for
Tomdroid, for example.

Sandy
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[Benjamin Podszun-2]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Cornelius Hald wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 07:57 -0700, Sandy Armstrong wrote:
>> On 03/24/2009 07:12 AM, Alex Launi wrote:
>>> Maybe your efforts would be better spent focusing on cutting down mono's
>>> footprint on maemo. Either way good luck with Conboy (or whatever it
>>> ends up being).
>>
>> As a follow-up to this, I should mention that memory usage is somewhat
>> reduced in Tomboy 0.14.0, and we are going to keep hacking away at it.
>> We don't want people leaving Tomboy off of netbooks (for example)
>> because of the memory usage and startup performance.
>>
>> Sandy
>
> That's good to hear! I really would prefer to use the real thing on the
> N810. I'm using Tomboy on my desktop and notebook. I'm sure I also would
> use it on my netbook (if I would have one). But IMHO Mono/Tomboy is
> still a bit too heavy for the N810. Still, I hope in the not so distant
> future I can change from my self-cooked software back to Tomboy and get
> all the features and plug-ins for free :)

Being a N810 owner myself I'd like to see tomboy on the device as well.
Maybe the next vacation is a good excuse to play with the port and check
if it can be brought to the newest version.
Would be nice to have it on the next maemo summit ;)
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[Cornelius Hald]

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 10:16 -0700, Sandy Armstrong wrote:
> Well, we're always looking for help to fix memory usage and performance
> issues.  They're actually fun to track down.  If you feel like helping
> with that, it would be very welcome.  :-)
>
> I'm not against new Tomboy clients, though.  I have high hopes for
> Tomdroid, for example.

For now I'll go with the C-client, but who knows what will happen in the
future... Actually I'm much better at writing C# code then I'm at
writing C code ;)

I'll report to the list as soon as the 0.1 is out. Maybe someone owns a
tablet and wants to give it a try...

Thank you!
Conny


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[Cornelius Hald]

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 18:31 +0100, Benjamin Podszun wrote:
> Being a N810 owner myself I'd like to see tomboy on the device as well.
> Maybe the next vacation is a good excuse to play with the port and check
> if it can be brought to the newest version.
> Would be nice to have it on the next maemo summit ;)

I know this is going of topic, but it might be helpful...

I think to make Tomboy a success on the tablets it is very important to
get it into the Extras-Repository. Otherwise many people will just never
know that this great app exists. The problem here is, that to get it
into this repository the dependencies of Tomboy (especially mono) need
to be in the Extras-Repository too.
To get a package to this repository it needs to be build be the maemo
auto-builder. This is a service that automatically builds your packages
from source inside scratchbox. Here lies the next problem: ATM it's not
possible to build mono completely inside scratchbox (due to qemu
limitations). So that means that is will be difficult to get Tomboy to
the Extras-Repository, where it would belong...

However, I don't want to discourage you. I'm not the most skilled person
with packaging and scratchbox development... There is still hope :)
It would be nice if you would overcome these problems, because I believe
that having mono easily available on maemo would be a big plus for other
projects too.

I wish you all the best and hope you'll find some time!

Cheers,
Conny


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[Pete Goodall]

Hi all,

Sorry for the top post, but I'm responding to this thread in general.

I think Tomboy on maemo is very compelling.  I have some contacts in
the maemo community and will ping them for any insights into the usage
of mono in the maemo platform.  Cornelius, have you run the idea of
using Mono-based applications in any of the maeomo development
communities?

Also, as a product manager for a netbook OS (Ubuntu Netbook Remix) I
very much would like to include Tomboy, but need to be conscious of
memory usage.  The other issue that always seems to come up is how the
UI fits on the screen.  Netbooks have a bit of an odd resolution.
Last year they were all 1024x600, but I'm seeing more of them with
1024x576 now.  I'm not sure how the Tomboy search dialog would fit in
that res.  Will test today as I'm testing other apps anyway.  If we
find any interesting metrics of using Tomboy on a netbook I'll post to
this list.

Lastly, name suggstion: Tomboy-mini?  Or would that imply too much of
a relationship with the main project?

- Pete


On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Cornelius Hald <hald@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 18:31 +0100, Benjamin Podszun wrote:
>> Being a N810 owner myself I'd like to see tomboy on the device as well.
>> Maybe the next vacation is a good excuse to play with the port and check
>> if it can be brought to the newest version.
>> Would be nice to have it on the next maemo summit ;)
>
> I know this is going of topic, but it might be helpful...
>
> I think to make Tomboy a success on the tablets it is very important to
> get it into the Extras-Repository. Otherwise many people will just never
> know that this great app exists. The problem here is, that to get it
> into this repository the dependencies of Tomboy (especially mono) need
> to be in the Extras-Repository too.
> To get a package to this repository it needs to be build be the maemo
> auto-builder. This is a service that automatically builds your packages
> from source inside scratchbox. Here lies the next problem: ATM it's not
> possible to build mono completely inside scratchbox (due to qemu
> limitations). So that means that is will be difficult to get Tomboy to
> the Extras-Repository, where it would belong...
>
> However, I don't want to discourage you. I'm not the most skilled person
> with packaging and scratchbox development... There is still hope :)
> It would be nice if you would overcome these problems, because I believe
> that having mono easily available on maemo would be a big plus for other
> projects too.
>
> I wish you all the best and hope you'll find some time!
>
> Cheers,
> Conny
>
>
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>

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[Benjamin Podszun-2]

Hi Pete.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Pete Goodall wrote:
> I think Tomboy on maemo is very compelling.  I have some contacts in
> the maemo community and will ping them for any insights into the usage
> of mono in the maemo platform.  Cornelius, have you run the idea of
> using Mono-based applications in any of the maeomo development
> communities?

Someone (Everaldo) more or less maintains the mono for maemo packages and
is quite helpful/responsive. I don't know about any applications that
actually use it on the table though, unfortunately. Vala seems to be the
way to go there if you want a GC and C# like syntax. Sad imo.

> Also, as a product manager for a netbook OS (Ubuntu Netbook Remix) I
> very much would like to include Tomboy, but need to be conscious of
> memory usage.  The other issue that always seems to come up is how the
> UI fits on the screen.  Netbooks have a bit of an odd resolution.
> Last year they were all 1024x600, but I'm seeing more of them with
> 1024x576 now.  I'm not sure how the Tomboy search dialog would fit in
> that res.  Will test today as I'm testing other apps anyway.  If we
> find any interesting metrics of using Tomboy on a netbook I'll post to
> this list.

Right now I read your mail as "You want Tomboy, the real thing, on a
netbook". Obviously memory consumption is a bigger issue there.
I'm confident that memory/performance issues have a high priority in the
bugtracker, so any help on that field (statistics, test data, whatever)
would be greatly appreciated.

> Lastly, name suggstion: Tomboy-mini?  Or would that imply too much of
> a relationship with the main project?

Does this line apply to the C port again? Are you actually talking about
the C port in the whole mail or were you talking about Tomboy first and
now merely suggesting a port name?

Ben
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[Sandy Armstrong]

On 03/26/2009 04:22 AM, Pete Goodall wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sorry for the top post, but I'm responding to this thread in general.
>
> I think Tomboy on maemo is very compelling.  I have some contacts in
> the maemo community and will ping them for any insights into the usage
> of mono in the maemo platform.  Cornelius, have you run the idea of
> using Mono-based applications in any of the maeomo development
> communities?
>
> Also, as a product manager for a netbook OS (Ubuntu Netbook Remix) I
> very much would like to include Tomboy, but need to be conscious of
> memory usage.  The other issue that always seems to come up is how the
> UI fits on the screen.  Netbooks have a bit of an odd resolution.
> Last year they were all 1024x600, but I'm seeing more of them with
> 1024x576 now.  I'm not sure how the Tomboy search dialog would fit in
> that res.  Will test today as I'm testing other apps anyway.  If we
> find any interesting metrics of using Tomboy on a netbook I'll post to
> this list.

I am totally with Benjamin on the issues of memory and performance (top
top priority now, have already made good improvements in 0.14.0), so I
won't add anything to that.

As for UI improvements, I just have two things to add:
* Do people care if the Tomboy search UI takes up (mostly) their whole
screen?  It seems like the sort of thing you don't leave open for long
periods of time.  Also, I don't see a ton of use cases where you need to
see another window while you're quickly doing a search.  I would guess
that "open file" dialogs probably take up a lot of space, too.
* That being said, I don't use a netbook.  :-)  If you are interested in
an alternate search UI, I would love to hear your thoughts.  I am not
against adding enhanced support for smaller screens.  One related thing
I'd like to knock out this cycle is support for hiding the note toolbar,
which takes up a significant amount of space.

Lastly, Pete, if you have any resources to contribute to having access
to Tomboy notes on netbooks, I would strongly suggest focusing on the
"real" Tomboy.  Mono on Maemo is a very different situation from Mono on
Netbooks.  We can *easily* improve memory and performance issues on your
target platforms, especially if we have help.  Here are the relevant
bugs at this time:

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=565790
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567989

Thanks for your input,
Sandy
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[Everaldo Canuto]

Hey all,

I am Everaldo, currently a Mono packager for Maemo and I also maintain
a port of an old tomboy version for Maemo (0.7).

I haven't tested recent versions of tomboy but in my Nokia 810 the
tomboy take less than 7 seconds to open. Also I haven't tested memory
consumption but at least here it don't see to be a problem.

IMHO, it is better to improve performance than rewrite all from scratch.

Cheers,
Everaldo.
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[Cornelius Hald]

On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 11:22 +0000, Pete Goodall wrote:
> I think Tomboy on maemo is very compelling.  I have some contacts in
> the maemo community and will ping them for any insights into the usage
> of mono in the maemo platform.  Cornelius, have you run the idea of
> using Mono-based applications in any of the maeomo development
> communities?

I was not discussing it with anyone on in the community. However if you
search for "mono" on http://www.internettablettalk.com you'll find many
related threads. I was only looking for some technical help regarding
qemu[1]. Because I was hoping that with the latest qemu release it would
be possible to run the whole compilation process of Mono inside
scratchbox without having to use a devkit.

Regards,
Conny


[1] Look for "qemu" here:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2009-March/thread.html


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[Cornelius Hald]

On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 13:41 +0100, Benjamin Podszun wrote:
> Someone (Everaldo) more or less maintains the mono for maemo packages and
> is quite helpful/responsive. I don't know about any applications that
> actually use it on the table though, unfortunately. Vala seems to be the
> way to go there if you want a GC and C# like syntax. Sad imo.

I think it is a bit of an chicken-egg problem. The advantage of C,
Python an Vala is, that the tools and dependencies are available in the
Extras-Repository. To get a Mono based app running, you first have to go
to the Mono webpage and add a new repository to your tablet. Then you
have to find the app somewhere on the net and install it.
It's just not as user friendly and people who actually want to develop
in C# have a problem announcing their software because it cannot be
uploaded to this common place.

If you Everaldo could get Mono, Gtk#, etc. to the Extras-Repository I
think this would be a first big step.

Cheers!
Conny


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[Cornelius Hald]

Hi Everaldo,

On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 12:37 -0300, Everaldo Canuto wrote:
> I haven't tested recent versions of tomboy but in my Nokia 810 the
> tomboy take less than 7 seconds to open. Also I haven't tested memory
> consumption but at least here it don't see to be a problem.

it looks like I should wipe the system on my N810 and do a fresh
reinstall. Tomboy takes constantly around 12-14 seconds to start (warm
start) on my tablet. This is with only one two notes in the .tomboy dir
and nothing else running. I'll look into it as soon as I have some
time.

Thanks for the info :)
Conny



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