Can anyone list examples of current production usage of these tools?

[jdn3times]

I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools that I personally believe embody best practices.  If I am correct in this assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools would be useful to me in this effort.

I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually considered to be the best tools available.  Well, I'm actually not against that debate, but it's a side discussion.  Theoretically, I might need to argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.

And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal the source.

Tools I'm interested in getting info about:

Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
StructureMap
NHibernate

TIA.

jdn

[Greg Young-2]

A committee of what kind of people? Tech people or business people?

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:53 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in this
> assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not against
> that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>
>

--
Les erreurs de grammaire et de syntaxe ont été incluses pour m'assurer
de votre attention

[Josh Coffman]

Sage Software uses NHibernate in at least one product that I know of but I
can't be more specific.  It's in the CRM space though.  Also, some
developers there are using Rhino Mocks for testing. RM is used in the same
department as the NHib product, and at least one other developer in another
division uses it.

Don't know how they rank vs. Fort 500.

Josh C.
480-270-4578 ¶ josh [at] computeristsolutions [dot] com ¶
http://computeristsolutions.com


On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 5:53 PM, jdn3times <jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in this
> assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not against
> that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>
>  
>

[jdn3times]

Both.  The tech people are more open to it, but ultimately, the biz needs to accept it.

That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to get F.500 references, as that is the sort of thing that will help with this group.  

I think I can do a good job of pitching it, and I have some important people in the process who are in favor of it, but I can use all the ammo I can get.

jdn

--- In altdotnet@..., Greg Young <gregoryyoung1@...> wrote:

>
> A committee of what kind of people? Tech people or business people?
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:53 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> > that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in this
> > assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> > would be useful to me in this effort.
> >
> > I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> > considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not against
> > that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> > argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> > hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
> >
> > Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> > the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
> >
> > And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> > reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> > the source.
> >
> > Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
> >
> > Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> > StructureMap
> > NHibernate
> >
> > TIA.
> >
> > jdn
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Les erreurs de grammaire et de syntaxe ont été incluses pour m'assurer
> de votre attention
>

[Richard Dingwall]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> Both. The tech people are more open to it, but ultimately, the biz needs to
> accept it.
>
> That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to get F.500 references, as that
> is the sort of thing that will help with this group.
>
> I think I can do a good job of pitching it, and I have some important people
> in the process who are in favor of it, but I can use all the ammo I can get.
>
> jdn

One example I often use to pitch is that study a few months back of
teams practicing TDD at Microsoft/IBM:

"The pre-release defect density of the four products, measured as
defects per thousand lines of code, decreased between 40% and 90%
relative to the projects that did not use TDD."

"The teams' management reported subjectively a 15–35% increase in
initial development time for the teams using TDD, though the teams
agreed that this was offset by reduced maintenance costs."

Hard to argue with these numbers.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/esm/nagappan_tdd.pdf

--
Richard Dingwall
http://richarddingwall.name


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altdotnet/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altdotnet/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    mailto:altdotnet-digest@...
    mailto:altdotnet-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    altdotnet-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Josh Coffman]

Ayende (Rhino) and Jeremy Miller (StructureMap) are both well respected. I
certainly do. You could ask for their input.  The numbers info that Richard
refers to should be about the only argument you need, but I know how this
sometimes goes. Resistance isn't always based on logic; sometimes it's just
cultural.

Ayende is also involved with NHib I believe. Tuna Toksoz (
http://twitter.com/tehlike) is also an NH dev, and is pretty helpful.


Josh C.
480-270-4578 ¶ josh [at] computeristsolutions [dot] com ¶
http://computeristsolutions.com


On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 7:59 PM, jdn3times <jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> Both. The tech people are more open to it, but ultimately, the biz needs to
> accept it.
>
> That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to get F.500 references, as that
> is the sort of thing that will help with this group.
>
> I think I can do a good job of pitching it, and I have some important
> people in the process who are in favor of it, but I can use all the ammo I
> can get.
>
> jdn
>
>
> --- In altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>, Greg Young
> <gregoryyoung1@...> wrote:
> >
> > A committee of what kind of people? Tech people or business people?
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:53 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of
> tools
> > > that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in
> this
> > > assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these
> tools
> > > would be useful to me in this effort.
> > >
> > > I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> > > considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not
> against
> > > that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> > > argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> > > hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
> > >
> > > Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed
> in
> > > the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
> > >
> > > And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for
> NDA
> > > reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never
> reveal
> > > the source.
> > >
> > > Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
> > >
> > > Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> > > StructureMap
> > > NHibernate
> > >
> > > TIA.
> > >
> > > jdn
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Les erreurs de grammaire et de syntaxe ont été incluses pour m'assurer
> > de votre attention
> >
>
>  
>

[alberto-40]

http://nhforge.org/wikis/successstories/success-stories.aspx

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:53 AM, jdn3times <jdn3times@...> wrote:

> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> that I personally believe embody best practices.  If I am correct in this
> assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> considered to be the best tools available.  Well, I'm actually not against
> that debate, but it's a side discussion.  Theoretically, I might need to
> argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[jdn3times]

--- In altdotnet@..., alberto <alberto.email@...> wrote:
>
> http://nhforge.org/wikis/successstories/success-stories.aspx
>

I wasn't aware of that resource.

Thanks.

jdn

[jdn3times]

--- In altdotnet@..., Josh Coffman <joshcoffman@...> wrote:
>
> Ayende (Rhino) and Jeremy Miller (StructureMap) are both well respected. I
> certainly do. You could ask for their input.  The numbers info that Richard
> refers to should be about the only argument you need, but I know how this
> sometimes goes. Resistance isn't always based on logic; sometimes it's just
> cultural.
>
> Ayende is also involved with NHib I believe. Tuna Toksoz (
> http://twitter.com/tehlike) is also an NH dev, and is pretty helpful.

Yep, got a very quick response from Ayende.

Thanks.

jdn

[jdn3times]

--- In altdotnet@..., Richard Dingwall <rdingwall@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Both. The tech people are more open to it, but ultimately, the biz needs to
> > accept it.
> >
> > That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to get F.500 references, as that
> > is the sort of thing that will help with this group.
> >
> > I think I can do a good job of pitching it, and I have some important people
> > in the process who are in favor of it, but I can use all the ammo I can get.
> >
> > jdn
>
> One example I often use to pitch is that study a few months back of
> teams practicing TDD at Microsoft/IBM:
>
> "The pre-release defect density of the four products, measured as
> defects per thousand lines of code, decreased between 40% and 90%
> relative to the projects that did not use TDD."
>
> "The teams' management reported subjectively a 15–35% increase in
> initial development time for the teams using TDD, though the teams
> agreed that this was offset by reduced maintenance costs."
>

I think the main issue is going to be the tools though.  At least at this early date, that is what I think could be the main issue.  TDD?  Fine, but e.g., you just can't use StructureMap for reasons <reasons ommited for brevity>.

jdn

[Richard Dingwall]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 1:43 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In altdotnet@..., Richard Dingwall <rdingwall@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Both. The tech people are more open to it, but ultimately, the biz needs
>> > to
>> > accept it.
>> >
>> > That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to get F.500 references, as
>> > that
>> > is the sort of thing that will help with this group.
>> >
>> > I think I can do a good job of pitching it, and I have some important
>> > people
>> > in the process who are in favor of it, but I can use all the ammo I can
>> > get.
>> >
>> > jdn
>>
>> One example I often use to pitch is that study a few months back of
>> teams practicing TDD at Microsoft/IBM:
>>
>> "The pre-release defect density of the four products, measured as
>> defects per thousand lines of code, decreased between 40% and 90%
>> relative to the projects that did not use TDD."
>>
>> "The teams' management reported subjectively a 15–35% increase in
>> initial development time for the teams using TDD, though the teams
>> agreed that this was offset by reduced maintenance costs."
>>
>
> I think the main issue is going to be the tools though. At least at this
> early date, that is what I think could be the main issue. TDD? Fine, but
> e.g., you just can't use StructureMap for reasons <reasons ommited for
> brevity>.
>
> jdn
>

If you take some developers who've never used IoC before and tell them
they should all be using StructureMap of course they're gonna look at
you funny :)

TDD is the only goal you should be selling. Effective testing requires
loosely coupled classes, which is easiest with dependency injection,
and to manage that you probably want an IoC container of some sort,
and StructureMap is better than the others because of reasons X, Y and
Z.

A container is just the enabler for TDD, not the ultimate goal. The
tools are just implementation details.

--
Richard Dingwall
http://richarddingwall.name


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altdotnet/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altdotnet/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    mailto:altdotnet-digest@...
    mailto:altdotnet-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    altdotnet-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[jdn3times]

--- In altdotnet@..., Richard Dingwall <rdingwall@...> wrote:

> >
> > I think the main issue is going to be the tools though. At least at this
> > early date, that is what I think could be the main issue. TDD? Fine, but
> > e.g., you just can't use StructureMap for reasons <reasons ommited for
> > brevity>.
> >
> > jdn
> >
>
> If you take some developers who've never used IoC before and tell them
> they should all be using StructureMap of course they're gonna look at
> you funny :)
>
> TDD is the only goal you should be selling.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm going to have to disagree a little bit with this.

I have not been in the position long enough to know exactly all of the steps required to get certain things approved (and though my initial post listed open-source tools, it isn't exactly an issue about open-source...NHibernate isn't currently approved, but neither is Entity Framework, for instance).

The developers don't have any immediate issue with, e.g. StructureMap, and wouldn't with Unity.  The biz types might (I think, do) have issues with both.  And their reasons may have nothing to do with technical considerations.

Pitching TDD per se may raise objections over and above an argument that I want to use StructureMap, Rhino Mocks, etc. just because I think I can argue that the resulting software would be better designed if I could use those tools.

I'm glossing over a lot of stuff for NDA/"easier to explain" reasons, but I asked about Fortune 500 references precisely because I believe (for yet to be proven reasons, but reasons I think I have reason to believe, so to speak) that they aren't convinced that there are other Fortune 500 companies that need these tools, so why should they accept them?

I don't personally believe in TDD (I have a visceral dislike of BDD, but that's what I actually practice, despite my visceral dislike), so I prefer not to go down that route.  

jdn
 

[Tuna Toksoz]

Don't know if it helps, but ASP.NET Mvc framework uses Moq.

Tuna Toksöz
Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.

http://devlicio.us/blogs/tuna_toksoz
http://tunatoksoz.com
http://twitter.com/tehlike




On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 3:53 AM, jdn3times <jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in this
> assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not against
> that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>
>  
>

[Richard Dingwall]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 4:05 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
> The developers don't have any immediate issue with, e.g. StructureMap, and
> wouldn't with Unity. The biz types might (I think, do) have issues with
> both. And their reasons may have nothing to do with technical
> considerations.

Why do the biz guys care what IoC container you use? How is it any of
their concern at all?

Fair enough if they have a big licensing agreement for SQL Server, or
the staff are all experienced Java developers... but if they are
dictating developer tools down to the level of the IoC container and
mocking framework then I'd say your team is pretty screwed...

--
Richard Dingwall
http://richarddingwall.name

[jdn3times]

--- In altdotnet@..., Richard Dingwall <rdingwall@...> wrote:

>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 4:05 PM, jdn3times<jdn3times@...> wrote:
> > The developers don't have any immediate issue with, e.g. StructureMap, and
> > wouldn't with Unity. The biz types might (I think, do) have issues with
> > both. And their reasons may have nothing to do with technical
> > considerations.
>
> Why do the biz guys care what IoC container you use? How is it any of
> their concern at all?
>
> Fair enough if they have a big licensing agreement for SQL Server, or
> the staff are all experienced Java developers... but if they are
> dictating developer tools down to the level of the IoC container and
> mocking framework then I'd say your team is pretty screwed...
>

Yeah, that's not it.  More a matter of them 'dictating' a common or approved toolset across a (fairly) large organization.

jdn

[Troy Gould-2]

Is the worry about the specific tools, or an argument about what are best
practices?

I know of at least five companies in the top 50 using RhinoMocks and/or
NHibernate on at least one project.  I can't give named because of NDA.  I
also know of another 5 in the top 50 that are using Java equivalments of
RhinoMock, StructureMap and NHibernate on at least one project.  I know of a
company in the top 5 using both NHibernate and Hibernate.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:53 PM, jdn3times <jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
>
> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools
> that I personally believe embody best practices. If I am correct in this
> assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools
> would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually
> considered to be the best tools available. Well, I'm actually not against
> that debate, but it's a side discussion. Theoretically, I might need to
> argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so
> hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in
> the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA
> reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal
> the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>
>  
>

[Addy Santo-2]

Moq is fairly widely used inside Microsoft (widely = at least a few hundred devs which I know of, probably more)
RhinoMocks is used by at least one group there too.  




________________________________
From: Troy Gould <tgould@...>
To: altdotnet@...
Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 7:21:18 PM
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] Can anyone list examples of current production usage  of these tools?

   
Is the worry about the specific tools, or an argument about what are best practices?

I know of at least five companies in the top 50 using RhinoMocks and/or NHibernate on at least one project.  I can't give named because of NDA.  I also know of another 5 in the top 50 that are using Java equivalments of RhinoMock, StructureMap and NHibernate on at least one project.  I know of a company in the top 5 using both NHibernate and Hibernate.    


On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:53 PM, jdn3times <jdn3times@yahoo. com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  >
>>
>I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools that I personally believe embody best practices.  If I am correct in this assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools would be useful to me in this effort.
>
>>I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually considered to be the best tools available.  Well, I'm actually not against that debate, but it's a side discussion.  Theoretically, I might need to argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
>>Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
>>And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal the source.
>
>>Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
>>Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
>>StructureMap
>>NHibernate
>
>>TIA.
>
>>jdn
>
>

   

[rhysevancampbell]

we currently use for the last year in prod applications
Nhibernate
Rhinomocks
Gallio
Td.Net
TeamCity
Resharper
ODP.Net
MSbuild Comunity Extensions
Psake
Powershell Community Extensions
MVC Community Extensions
Redgate tool suite
Telerik on some ASp.Net webform stuff
Topshelf (with Mgnum)
Automapper
ServiceLocator
Jquery
TFS (the team aspects of it out weigh the source control negatives for our team)
EntLib
Unity

not all are my choices. currently the only thing giving us real pain is the speed of TFS source control (would love to move to Git/Mercurial) but mostly Mstest. dont use it. it is aweful on anything other than the most trival code.

Company is a top 5 major Oil and Gas player with an office in perth (i cant spell it out ;))

Rhys


--- In altdotnet@..., "jdn3times" <jdn3times@...> wrote:

>
> I may be in a situation where I can press the adoption of a number of tools that I personally believe embody best practices.  If I am correct in this assessment, the availability of data about how others are using these tools would be useful to me in this effort.
>
> I'm not interested in debating if the tools I suggest are actually considered to be the best tools available.  Well, I'm actually not against that debate, but it's a side discussion.  Theoretically, I might need to argue for the usage of one of these tools in front of a committee, so hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
>
> Since I'm in the US, a reference to a company that is currently listed in the Fortune 500 would be really helpful.
>
> And if for whatever reason this info needs to remain confidential for NDA reasons (or whatever), an email to me would be fine and I will never reveal the source.
>
> Tools I'm interested in getting info about:
>
> Rhino Mocks and/or Moq
> StructureMap
> NHibernate
>
> TIA.
>
> jdn
>