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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pending> They should have invented a new file format - just a deflate compressed
> stream of BGRA values. They didn't. It's not PNG, we don't care. > > John Bowler <jbowler@...> They call it PNG and use the PNG signature and extension, so we do care. Indeed it's not PNG because it uses little-endian byte format, has a chunk ahead of IHDR, and has invalid CRC checksums. The compression method is not exactly zlib but we allow that (but not without changing the compression method byte in IHDR which apparently they are not doing). Unreadable CgBI PNGs are already deployed and people have written various applications to deal with them. Most of those are incorrect in one way or another, as far as I can tell -- they don't deal with the premultiplied alpha or the weird deflate compression. If the patent is granted, the patent holder could forbid or otherwise control such third-party applications. I was thinking of modifying the decoder in pngcrush and *Magick to handle them but since Bob pointed out the patent application I think all I will do is throw an error (we already do that because of the unknown chunk, but I'd try to produce a more useful error message). Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingFrom: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
> John Bowler <jbowler@...>: >> They should have invented a new file format - just a deflate compressed >> stream of BGRA values. They didn't. It's not PNG, we don't care. >They call it PNG and use the PNG signature and extension, so we do >care. Right; I was referring strictly to the patent. A valid implementation of the patent would necessarily change the PNG signature on the data as well, for the reasons we have discussed. CgBI is wrong for several reasons. Not least the chunk apparently has no Apple specific signature (IRC) - this sets Apple up for a situation where PNGs using a valid CgBI chunk from another source (e.g. anything produced by www.cgbi.fr) emerge and cause confusion (for Apple, not CGBI, who would presumably put a chunk signature in.) >Unreadable CgBI PNGs are already deployed and people >have written various applications to deal with them. > >If the patent is granted, the patent holder could forbid or >otherwise control such third-party applications. I'm not sure that would stand up in a US court (because of the data interoperability purpose), but then, IRC, the issue of using GIF decoders for data interoperability never got tested in a court. The problem is that the patent can clearly be used to menace weaker competitors into ceasing to compete should Apple desire. Alternatively it could be used to simply get money under threat of court action, should Apple come to think that extracting a few bucks from every user of a PNG decoder is a way of keeping its head above water. >I was thinking of modifying the decoder in pngcrush and *Magick >to handle them but since Bob pointed out the patent >application I think all I will do is throw an error (we already >do that because of the unknown chunk, but I'd try to >produce a more useful error message). Perhaps something along the lines of: "This PNG contains a CgBI chunk that prevents its display. Interpretation of data in a CgBI chunk may be patent protected." BTW you can't write the correct code: I don't think it is possible to generate post-multiplied RGBA values from the pre-multiplied values because, in general, the color component values required depend on the color components in the *destination*. (I.e. you want an RGBA PNG that will produce the same output as display of the Apple pre-multiplied BGRA data, but the display of the Apple data depends on the values of the pixels onto which the data is composited in a way that can't be expressed in PNG.) John Bowler <jbowler@...> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingFrom: Glenn Randers-Pehrson [mailto:glennrp@...]
>They call it PNG and use the PNG signature and extension, so we do >care. To put this in context, according to this thread: http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=8314150 The IHDR is being changed to CgBI. So far as I am concerned the PNG file signature is and always has been 12 bytes - the 8 byte "signature" followed by "IHDR" - because the specification requires that every valid PNG file start with those 12 bytes. The transformation is only happening when the data is packaged for the target device, apparently people, probably not Apple people, are hacking the result out and expecting it to work in other contexts. It won't, it's like compiled machine code versus the original source code. Most importantly: *the original PNG cannot be recovered*. It's a strictly one way operation and once it is done it cannot be undone. It's a pity they didn't zap, or just drop, the 8 byte header too, but, regardless of the merits of what they did, the real problem is a failure of understanding in people outside Apple as to what they can do with the compiled data. John Bowler <jbowler@...> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingOn Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:33 PM, John Bowler <jbowler@...> wrote:
> The IHDR is being changed to CgBI. So far as I am concerned the PNG file > signature is and always has been 12 bytes - the 8 byte "signature" followed > by "IHDR" - because the specification requires that every valid PNG file > start with those 12 bytes. Actually 16 bytes: the 8-byte signature, a 4-byte unsigned integer 13 in network byte order, then "IHDR". But there are plenty of applications, including all libpng-based ones, that only check 8 bytes or less. Simple applications like file(1) are entitled to expect to find the width and height in the next 8 bytes. If there is a CgBI chunk where IHDR is supposed to be, then weird results will be produced. Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingAdding insult to injury, Apple is using a modified version of pngcrush
to create these rogue non-PNGs, but they are still calling the program pngcrush. My license seems to allow that but it sux all the same. I would not mind seeing a copy of said modified pngcrush program. #:-( Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingBut whoever said Apple was a good Net-Citizen? Even with a MacBook Pro
being my daily workhorse, I'm still absolutely convinced that they have been doing more "grabbing" from the public domain than that they have contributed. Like so many other successful companies, they're the king of proprietary apps. No illusions there, Willem PS. I'm sure they would translate "you grabbed pngcrush" with "oh, we forked it". Unfortunately, the world isn't fair.... Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > Adding insult to injury, Apple is using a modified version of pngcrush > to create these rogue non-PNGs, but they are still calling the > program pngcrush. My license seems to allow that but it sux > all the same. I would not mind seeing a copy of said modified > pngcrush program. > > #:-( > > Glenn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations > Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of > expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry > leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf > and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf > _______________________________________________ > png-mng-misc mailing list > png-mng-misc@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc > -- Willem van Schaik <willem@...> http://www.schaik.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pending----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem van Schaik" <willem@...> PS. I'm sure they would translate "you grabbed pngcrush" with "oh, we forked it". Unfortunately, the world isn't fair.... How would they translate "you ignored the license requirements"? They are distributing a pngcrush, over my name (and Greg's) that produces invalid PNG files. They failed to abide by the simple requirement that they state that they modified the code (by adding -iPhone and -speed options and who knows what else). I don't know if they distribute source; the license does not require them to, so all I know is by applying "strings -a" to the executable that they distribute as a part of their SDK. They are damaging the reputation of pngcrush and my professional reputation. IANAL and IDNHAL but I guess I need one now. Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingFYI:
"CgBI" appears to mean "CGBitmap" which I believe is an Apple internal image representation. Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingFrom: glennrp@... [mailto:glennrp@...]
> They are damaging the reputation of pngcrush and my professional > reputation. Yes, I would say that too; my immediate reaction when I saw the comments about pngcrush was to wonder why an application supported by you was doing this. Of course that reaction lasted for just a fraction of a second, but I know much more about libpng than most developers... I'm sure Apple did not intentionally retain the name to add authenticity to their product, but nevertheless that seems to be the result. > IANAL and IDNHAL but I guess I need one now. Likewise IANAL, but I'm not sure you really need one - they tend stick around and get in the way. I guess the license could require a change to the executable name on any substantial modification, however I think this is just an example of sloppy development. The Apple pngcrush is apparently doing something new, I'd call it "pngtoxcode" or maybe "xcodepng". Good development practice requires that a spade be called a spade. I don't see why Apple shouldn't be amenable to simply changing the name and maybe even making it clear that the modifications are irreversible because of the loss of precision in the pre-multiplication. John Bowler <jbowler@...> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingOn Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:44 AM, John Bowler <jbowler@...> wrote:
> >> IANAL and IDNHAL but I guess I need one now. > > Likewise IANAL, but I'm not sure you really need one - they tend stick > around and get in the way. Google seems to think I do. The sidebar is full of IP lawyer ads when I use Gmail to look at this thread. Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pending> > How would they translate "you ignored the license requirements"? > > They are damaging the reputation of pngcrush and my professional > reputation. > > IANAL and IDNHAL but I guess I need one now. > As John said, maybe just start with writing them a letter / email and ask them friendly to reverse their actions. Besides the issues with PngCrush, isn't it time that as a PNG collective we write an 'open letter' to Apple simply asking them to use a different signature and file extension for their new format? Maybe we can get some publicity by sending an email to someone like Cringely (either of the two :-) he loves that type of stuff for his weekly column. -- Willem van Schaik <willem@...> http://www.schaik.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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Re: CgBI PNG derivative and patent pendingWillem van Schaik wrote:
> > Besides the issues with PngCrush, isn't it time that as a PNG collective > we write an 'open letter' to Apple simply asking them to use a different > signature and file extension for their new format? > Noticed the following piece (written by Greg, I guess) in the PNG history: "Nevertheless, progress continued. In June of 1995 I set up the PNG home page, now grown to roughly a dozen pages [7]; Kevin Mitchell officially registered the ``PNGf'' Macintosh file ID with Apple Computer. In August Alexander Lehmann and Willem van Schaik released a fine pair of additions to the NetPBM image-manipulation suite, particularly handy under Linux: pnmtopng and pngtopnm version 2.0. And in December at the Fourth International World Wide Web Conference, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) released the PNG Specification version 0.92 as an official standards-track Working Draft." -- Willem van Schaik <willem@...> http://www.schaik.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf _______________________________________________ png-mng-misc mailing list png-mng-misc@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/png-mng-misc |
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