Changes I've been thinking of...

[Gregory Casamento]

Guys,

There are a number of things which need to change on the project:

We need to:
1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
reflect our progress.
2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
update it's look.   The current look should always be available, but
not necessarily the default.
3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.

One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing.   I've been
trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer
to say the very least.

Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this?  I would
like to hear any and all input people have.

Later, GC
--
Gregory Casamento
Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant
yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa
[phone] (Cell)


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[Jesse Ross-3]

> We need to:
> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.
> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
> believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
> update it's look.   The current look should always be available, but
> not necessarily the default.
> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.
>
> One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing.   I've been
> trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer
> to say the very least.
>
> Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this?  I would
> like to hear any and all input people have.

I think all of these are really important, and I would love to make  
myself available on any or all of those fronts. Let me know what I can  
do to help.

J.




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[Richard Frith-Macdonald-2]

On 7 Oct 2009, at 20:24, Gregory Casamento wrote:

> Guys,
>
> There are a number of things which need to change on the project:
>
> We need to:
> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.

I've been dissatisfied with it too.  Not the basic appearance, which  
is generally a pleasantly clean/simple design, but more in function ...

a. If we can figure out what key areas of interest there are, we can  
link to them from the home page in a manner which makes it easy for  
people to find them. For instance, I recently noticed there was no  
link to the windows installer from the home page, so I added one.

b. Some inspiring news ought to be frequently updated on the front page.

c. links should be kept up to date ... old code which is no longer  
supported should be flagged as such or moved away from more current  
downloads.

d. the navigation links on the right should be highlighted in some  
way ... we read from left to right, and it's easy to fail to notice  
those links.  Look at http://www.apache.org/ for a clearer  
presentation with a broadly similar layout.

3. we should have a site search field on the home page!  The lack of a  
search facility is really annoying when someone is looking for  
something specific

> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern,

Then why did you say it? ... that's rather foolhardy.

> I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
> update it's look.

That's not a reason to change the default theme.  It's a reason to try  
to develop at least one good alternative theme.  You should not be  
proposing a change which will provoke argument when the alternative  
would achieve the same in a relatively non-contentious way/
If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to  
adopt it as the default.  The objective should be to develop a good  
theme (or multiple good themes).


>   The current look should always be available, but
> not necessarily the default.
> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.


Can't argue with that.



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[tjyang]

----------------------------------------

> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:24:01 -0400
> From: greg.casamento@...
> To: discuss-gnustep@...; gnustep-dev@...
> CC:
> Subject: Changes I've been thinking of...
>
> Guys,
>
> There are a number of things which need to change on the project:
>
> We need to:
> 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.

For item 1, I like to suggest move the web site over to sourceforge.net.
If advertisement on web page is a concern/annoying, we can use Trac like software
to host GNUStep site. Trac can even support auto-build feature(bitten).
Check out http://trac.edgewall.org yourself.


> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
> believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
> update it's look. The current look should always be available, but
> not necessarily the default.
> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.

To me theme is not an important issue, issue is GNUStep community is not as active as other projects. Apache,Firefox,extjs just to name a few.

Also there is no killer app in GNUStep.

All the software people need is on Windows, GNOME or KDE.

I like to suggest we come up with a killer app to
demonstrate GNUStep's write once run everywhere feature.

If GNUStep have a killer app, people will install GNUStep system on their OS.

Pick a most used software(maybe FireFox ?) and port the source code into objc language and GNUStep framework.

tj yang, a GNUStep lurker

>
> One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing. I've been
> trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer
> to say the very least.
>
> Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this? I would
> like to hear any and all input people have.

> Later, GC
> --
> Gregory Casamento
> Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant
> yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa
> [phone] (Cell)
>
>
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[Gregory Casamento]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Richard Frith-Macdonald
<richard@...> wrote:

>
> On 7 Oct 2009, at 20:24, Gregory Casamento wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> There are a number of things which need to change on the project:
>>
>> We need to:
>> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
>> reflect our progress.
>
> I've been dissatisfied with it too.  Not the basic appearance, which is
> generally a pleasantly clean/simple design, but more in function ...
>
> a. If we can figure out what key areas of interest there are, we can link to
> them from the home page in a manner which makes it easy for people to find
> them. For instance, I recently noticed there was no link to the windows
> installer from the home page, so I added one.
>
> b. Some inspiring news ought to be frequently updated on the front page.
>
> c. links should be kept up to date ... old code which is no longer supported
> should be flagged as such or moved away from more current downloads.
>
> d. the navigation links on the right should be highlighted in some way ...
> we read from left to right, and it's easy to fail to notice those links.
>  Look at http://www.apache.org/ for a clearer presentation with a broadly
> similar layout.
>
> 3. we should have a site search field on the home page!  The lack of a
> search facility is really annoying when someone is looking for something
> specific

I agree with all of these.

>> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
>> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
>> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern,
>
> Then why did you say it? ... that's rather foolhardy.

Because the current look is a source of constant criticism from people
outside the community and I hear it all of the time.  Also, I mention
it because I feel like the look (even though I, personally, like it)
may send the wrong message about the project.   Some people look at
how it looks and don't see that GNUstep is so much more than OpenStep.
  They look at it and they see NeXTSTEP and they think it's nothing
more than that.

This is a shame since GNUstep is SO much more.   What I don't want to
happen is for people to look at the current theme and think "it's just
NeXTSTEP/OpenStep" and don't think twice about it.

>> I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
>> update it's look.
>
> That's not a reason to change the default theme.  It's a reason to try to
> develop at least one good alternative theme.  You should not be proposing a
> change which will provoke argument when the alternative would achieve the
> same in a relatively non-contentious way/
> If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to adopt
> it as the default.  The objective should be to develop a good theme (or
> multiple good themes).

Indeed, I agree with this.

>>  The current look should always be available, but
>> not necessarily the default.
>> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.
>
>
> Can't argue with that.
>

:)

Later, GC

--
Gregory Casamento
Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant
## GNUstep Chief Maintainer
yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa
[phone] (Cell), [phone] (Home)


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[Lucas Holt]

> That's not a reason to change the default theme.  It's a reason to try
> to develop at least one good alternative theme.  You should not be
> proposing a change which will provoke argument when the alternative
> would achieve the same in a relatively non-contentious way/
> If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to
> adopt it as the default.  The objective should be to develop a good
> theme (or multiple good themes).
>
>
Also, document (in an easy to find place) how to select alternatives.  
The website should show similar screenshots with each theme so one can
decide what to use.  A section for package maintainers with things to
tweak (such as the theme) on the website would be nice too.  While it's
nice to have a consistent look and feel, different OS projects have
different goals.  Some might target end users who like a little eye
candy or "modern" look.  I would argue Ubuntu falls into that category
and I know we'll probably have to do that in MidnightBSD at some point.


Luke


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[icicle]

Hi!

> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.

IMHO the GNUstep wiki main page currently is more informative than the
plain www.gnustep.org front page. The wiki does a good job of showing
project progress, too.

> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
> believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
> update it's look.   The current look should always be available, but
> not necessarily the default.

As much as I love GNUstep base, I do not like GNUstep gui. Don't get me
wrong, I still burst in tears of agony if I have to use another GUI
library than GNUstep gui, because everyone still treats GUI as code,
even C# and WindowsForms. GNUstep gui still lacks in polishing. Using a
graphical GNUstep application on Gnome/KDE/Xfce ist still a pain
because:
1. it simply does not integrate with the rest of the desktop
2. lots of bugs in window handling (minimise, maximise, ordering, ...)
3. the look belongs back to the 80's

Simply put, GNUstep gui needs an associated desktop to fit in. And
please spare me with the default excuse, namely "WindowMaker integrates
with GNUstep" :) Maybe this sounds a little harsh, but most people out
there don't care for WindowMaker. Be it users or potential developers,
they prefer a more modern Desktop/Window manager.

Another issue is code quality. For example, the code in GNUstep back is
one hell of an ugly mess. I had to touch it, but I felt a chill running
down my spine in doing so. Everything in XGServerEvent and associates
looks like a mass of hacks piled on top of each other. It's such a
chaos, I do not want to touch it anymore in fear of breaking somthing
completely unrelated.
Additionally I really dislike the coding style, not because it's not
mine, but because it fails to make the code more readable. On the other
hand, there was code by Fred which looked really ok, so maybe it's just
about using the coding style in a sane way.... All I wanted to say is,
that it's not that easy to start hacking inside the GNUstep core
libraries.

> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.
Yep. IMHO Distributed Objects alone is one hell of a feature, making it
worth to use Foundation just because of that.
A modern look wouldn't hurt, too. You could talk to the Etoile people
if you need fancy images from a GNUstep based desktop :)


My 2 cents

Cheers
TOM



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[Stef Bidi]

I'll just give my opinion on each topic...

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@...> wrote:

1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
reflect our progress.

I agree here.  A while back, myself an Jesse from the Etoile project started, but I had to divert my attention to other things and I'm guessing so did Jesse.

I think the move to link the Software Index was great, but, at this point, GNUstep has 3 different sources for software look-up:
1. Software Index
2. Wiki
3. Website (which links to the wiki and freshmeat)
That's just plain confusing!  I personally like the Software Index better but it will require application developers to be more active in maintaining they're projects up to date.

Also, I think there needs to be a real content "audit".  If I want to get to the developer docs I need to go Developers -> Manuals and Documentations... and when I get there need to scroll through quite a few links, which may or may not be outdated and redudant... only then will I find the actual API docs.  This is just an example.  One this issue (content) I think the core developers need to take a step back and ask "who do we want to reach" and "what to we want to convey".

2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
update it's look.   The current look should always be available, but
not necessarily the default.

I agree with Richard on this one!  Windows, QT, GTK and FLTK (to name a few) all come default with a very bland theme (except Windows, but you still have the option).  Square buttons, grey everything, etc.  At most, I'd say the theme can be a little more subtle... the buttons just feel very raised for my taste.  In my opinion, and that's all it is, the problem here is a little deeper.

The first, and most obvious, is that GNUstep theming is still very young.  Apart from Camaleon (does it still work?) and some of Riccardo's themes there's nothing out there.

The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to globally define defaults.  If I'm out there creating a GNUstep package (and I mostly do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that.  I know it's been brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where the problem lies.

3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.

A new, targeted website would definitely get you off on the right foot.

Let me know if I can help in anyway.  My help will be limited, at best, because I just started grad school.

Stefan

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[Riccardo Mottola-4]

Hey,

I just read Richard's answer.. and I have to say I agree mostly with it.

Gregory Casamento wrote:
> Guys,
>
> There are a number of things which need to change on the project:
>
> We need to:
> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.
>  
Agreed. I like the look, but the information in it is sparse, not well
organized.
The website has to appeal to a broad range of people: New users,
developers, recurring users...
I personally feel that quite some information  is there, but needs to be
checked and made be better available.

For example the download page is something people expect, yet it is
confused. We have mirrors, do we still have them?
If, then I'd expect something like:

<package 1> [download version 1 main site]
[download version 1 mirror 1]
[download version 1 mirror 2]

<package 2> [download version 2 main site]
[download version 2 mirror 1]
[download version 2 mirror 2]

Just to make one of the many examples.

We had a very good improvment with the software index, but still some
information is dispersed between the site and the wiki.
> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general.
> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the
> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I
> believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
> update it's look.   The current look should always be available, but
> not necessarily the default.
>  
Let's do things gradually. Not just because I think the default look is
good, but because this is generally an open problem.
I agree mainly with Richard, I think it is good for themes to be
available, but it is not really necessary to change the default theme.

- GSTheme needs to be improved and GUI with it. THere are soem things
which are difficult to theme
- Thematic should track the above
- We need the ability to bundle Application and Document icons to make a
theme. I proposed that to some people but got no feedback. I intend that
it would be nice for a theme to supply new icons for several programs.
It is a feature that has drawbacks in consistency, but "themers" like
that a lot I believe!
- These themes, color schemes, bundles should be bundled in dedicated
pages on sites for easy access (I think here for example in etoile, and
GNUstep itself, in GAP I made a prototype of what I have in mind)

I released two early versions of themes and worked on a third (available
in CVS). They work, but are very incomplete, also because several
components need to be easier to theme, some settings need to be made
independent (mainly colors for example)

Then I may add that as much as I like our default theme, it can be
improved. Not newly "designed", but we are not good as OpenStep at all!
Some of our icons are missing, some are nice but not in the NeXT style.

So I believe that to improve on the theme side there are several tasks
to complete before even discussing "change the default theme".
Since this is an issue people have opinions about, let's procrastinate.
Working on the rest is already very interesting and promising!

> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general.
>
> One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing.   I've been
> trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer
> to say the very least.
>  

Marketing is difficult! But yes, we need to work on that. I tried to
market GNUstep professionally a couple of times and I found criticism or
doubts on:
- Windows compatibility (yes it is important!)
- integration (thus in this case theming in the sense of blending with
windows, more than the pure joy of ricing)
- ease to package on windows (currently it is difficult to make a single
self-contained application)
- incompleteness of some appealing applications
- bad packaging in the Distro X (where X was the choice of the customer...)

well more spots, but those are of note.
> Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this?  I would
> like to hear any and all input people have.
>  
I think we actually do well. The fact is that even if our core package
improved a LOT, just reading some 4 years old mails shows that for the
Joe average user or developer progress has been not very visible... and
what was there is not that well shown on the website.

I think other points we need to work on:
- make some useful applications more complete, less buggy... we have
tons of them, before even starting new ones. Let me cite:
    - ProjectCenter (the upcoming version is so much better.... try svn
trunk, but not there for a release)
    - GNUMail: a nice application, that is bitrotting
    - FlexiSheet
    - many others, text editors, etc

I also think we should devlop, document and make more prominent:
- GNUstepWeb. I got asked about that
- gdl2 and the other database related stuff inclduing the Gorm palettes.
People loved that at Fosdem
- did I mention packages in Linux and BSD? :)

Did you notice that there were people asking question and interest on
the Mailing list and on IRC? Let's keep that interest awake, reply nicely.

Riccardo


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[Riccardo Mottola-4]

Hey

I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to
update it's look.
      

That's not a reason to change the default theme.  It's a reason to try to
develop at least one good alternative theme.  You should not be proposing a
change which will provoke argument when the alternative would achieve the
same in a relatively non-contentious way/
If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to adopt
it as the default.  The objective should be to develop a good theme (or
multiple good themes).
    

Indeed, I agree with this.

  

A SystemPrefernces panel to set the theme, much like the current one in the InfoPanel, but working in the global domain... would help a lot! it would make a switch with a click and a revert with the same... and not for each application. What do you think? A small preview would be even more awesome. Maybe to simply things it could be faked with an included TIFF of a screenshot of a predefined palette

Richard, could you add the ability to change the theme icon in Thematic?

Riccardo


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[Matt Rice-2]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi <stefanbidi@...> wrote:

<snip>

> 13.0) there's not way for me
> to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above
> allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that.  I know it's been
> brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because
> of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where
> the problem lies.

I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings
fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain,

unless you mean on more than a per-user basis, e.g. on a system basis
extending the defaults system into the Local/ directories?


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[Philippe Roussel]

Hi

On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:24:01PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote:
> Guys,
>
> There are a number of things which need to change on the project:
>
> We need to:
> 1) improve our website.  It's been the same for years and doesn't
> reflect our progress.

For me, the one thing that really lowers GNUstep credibility is the
super high 'bitrot factor' : a lot of the software found in the wiki
is outdated, or it's website disappeared, or it won't compile or it's
almost useless. Building the core librairies is good (thanks guys !)
but we need a good set of working applications, easily found and
easily built.

One example I ran recently is AddressManager and the VCFViewer
inspector. There is one version in GAP, one version in Etoile. One
version of VCFViewer in AddressManager tree and one in GWorkspace
website and wiki page.

There are multiple terminal applications (gap, backbone, etoile ?) but
none really usable (to my knowledge, maybe I missed something).

There is Preferences and SystemPreferences.

GNUMail doesn't work for me and seems stalled.

What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize
things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined
applications instead of collecting random stuff.

One last thing about stable/unstable : the website frontpage advertize
gnustep startup 0.23.0 as a stable release with make 2.2.0, base 1.19.1,
gui 0.17.0 and back 0.17.0.
In the download page, stable startup version is 0.22.0 and unstable
0.19.3. Stable base is 1.18.0 which for me means that base 1.19.1
included in startup 0.23.0 is not stable. Same thing for gui and back.
Question is : what should I download ?!

I hope this doesn't sound too negative, really. I really like GNUstep
and wish to use a GNUstep desktop one day :o).

Thanks,
Philippe
--
Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are!



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[David Chisnall]

On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:38, Matt Rice wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi <stefanbidi@...>  
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> 13.0) there's not way for me
>> to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits  
>> above
>> allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that.  I know  
>> it's been
>> brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly  
>> it's because
>> of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion)  
>> that's where
>> the problem lies.
>
> I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings
> fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain,

Unless I have missed something, NSGlobalDomain is a per-user thing.  
There is no sensible way of setting a default value for a user default  
globally.  Apps can do this via the standard APIs, but there is no way  
for packagers to provide a default value for a default.  For example,  
we can put Camaelon and Nesedah in a package, but there is no way to  
make it the default theme for any users who have not selected a theme  
as part of the package installation.  This question has been asked on  
the list before and no one replied with a way, so I assume it is still  
impossible.

It would be nice to have a standard directory for plists which are  
merged together to provide the default user default values.  I looked  
at doing this a while ago, but it required implementing whiteout in  
the per-user defaults (so you could delete a default that exists in  
this directory).

This is something else that we need to address.  The OpenStep style of  
distribution is to provide drag and drop application bundles, which  
are great for single-user system but not ideal for multi-user systems  
like a typical *BSD or Linux distribution.  There are probably quite a  
few things that we could do to make it easier to package GNUstep and  
GNUstep apps / frameworks that we miss because we all build from  
source, which would help a lot with adoption.

David

-- Sent from my Apple II



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[Matt Rice-2]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Philippe Roussel <p.o.roussel@...> wrote:
> Hi

> What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize
> things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined
> applications instead of collecting random stuff.

Yuck.

first of all, this is impossible, because not everything out there is
copyright assigned.

IMO the way to go is decentralized,

that doesn't mean we can't have a central repository to collect all
the various decentralized projects in one easy to grab location.

doing this would also allow for the various forks out there to usurp
one another, if one repository dies, and someone picks it up, just
update the location in the 'central collection' to point to a new
repository maintained by whomever.

then the GNU FSF-copyright assigned collection only references GNU FSF
copyright assigned code, and someone else (e.g. the gap project) could
create a project which references the copyright assigned code, + the
other non assigned projects....

ideally you'd be able to build all the sub-projects i one go,
something that we don't get in our existing build system.


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[Riccardo Mottola-4]

Hi,



> The first, and most obvious, is that GNUstep theming is still very young.
> Apart from Camaleon (does it still work?) and some of Riccardo's themes
> there's nothing out there.
>  
Thank you for citing the effort. It is indeed very young. I was also
amazed at the little response it got, given the amount of time usually
spent talking/writing about theming.
My themes are just a beginning because they are pixmap themes that go
1:1 with Thematic capabilities.

Code themes can bemore powerful but more complex to write, I think we
should be able to do a good simple scheme by playing with pixmaps and
colors only.

If you look for something more subtle, look at the "Neos" theme.
> The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to globally
> define defaults.  If I'm out there creating a GNUstep package (and I mostly
> do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for 13.0) there's not way for me
> to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above
> allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that.  I know it's been
> brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because
> of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where
> the problem lies.
>  
 From a packager point of you that is understandable. Maybe an init
script wwhich sets defaults, a bit like windowmaker does?

Riccardo


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[Riccardo Mottola-4]

Hi,

Philippe Roussel wrote:
> For me, the one thing that really lowers GNUstep credibility is the
> super high 'bitrot factor' : a lot of the software found in the wiki
> is outdated, or it's website disappeared, or it won't compile or it's
> almost useless. Building the core librairies is good (thanks guys !)
> but we need a good set of working applications, easily found and
> easily built.
>
>  
True... applications need love and care just not to "bit rot". Whiich
gives the user a terrible impression.
> One example I ran recently is AddressManager and the VCFViewer
> inspector. There is one version in GAP, one version in Etoile. One
> version of VCFViewer in AddressManager tree and one in GWorkspace
> website and wiki page.
>  
I am working on that, you are helping me too there. The GAP version is
the official Addresses, Bjoern "donated" it to us.
GAP has become a kitchen-sink for apps not loved by their owners
anymore... I try my best to keep them going and added in the last years
several applications!
When a core developer like Enrico leaves, it leaves a lot of stuff... I
don't think everybody realized how much Enrico did for GNUstep. With the
releases, the wiki pages will be corrected, etc etc. We're gettign
there, just slowly. You yourself are helping me out lately!

> There are multiple terminal applications (gap, backbone, etoile ?) but
> none really usable (to my knowledge, maybe I missed something).
>
>  
These are harsh words? I don't know of etoile, but the one in GAP works.
I use it every single day! It may miss some features but works. ANd I
assume backbone's does too, the code bae is essentially the same, but
the philosophies about releases, makefiles etc. differ.
> There is Preferences and SystemPreferences.
>
>  
It is lecit to have more applications that do similar things! Happens on
windows too... SystemPreferences is from Enrico, it is Apple compatible.

Preference's is more limited in the UI, has different modules but looks
better :)
> GNUMail doesn't work for me and seems stalled.
>  
That is sadly very very true. TIm Kack found out what makes it crash,
made a partial patch... but it is left there. He can tell us the
details. But furthermore Ludovic should accept the patch, commit and
make a new beta tarball.
> What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize
> things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined
> applications instead of collecting random stuff.
>
>  
That is not striclty necessary, but things should be clearly linked from
the gnustep main site.
> One last thing about stable/unstable : the website frontpage advertize
> gnustep startup 0.23.0 as a stable release with make 2.2.0, base 1.19.1,
> gui 0.17.0 and back 0.17.0.
> In the download page, stable startup version is 0.22.0 and unstable
> 0.19.3. Stable base is 1.18.0 which for me means that base 1.19.1
> included in startup 0.23.0 is not stable. Same thing for gui and back.
> Question is : what should I download ?!
>  

Our downloads are terribly confusing!
> I hope this doesn't sound too negative, really. I really like GNUstep
> and wish to use a GNUstep desktop one day :o).
>  
It is honest, which is what counts.


Riccardo


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[Paul Csanyi]

Hi,

2009/10/7  <icicle@...>:

> Simply put, GNUstep gui needs an associated desktop to fit in. And please
> spare me with the default excuse, namely "WindowMaker integrates with
> GNUstep" :) Maybe this sounds a little harsh, but most people out there
> don't care for WindowMaker. Be it users or potential developers, they prefer
> a more modern Desktop/Window manager.

I don't think so.
The Window Maker Window Manager (it's a Desktop Environment too) is much better
for me than any other Desktop Environment (GNOME or KDE).

--
Regards, Paul Chany
http://csanyi-pal.info


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[Richard Frith-Macdonald-2]

On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:28, Stef Bidi wrote:
>
> The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to  
> globally define defaults.  If I'm out there creating a GNUstep  
> package (and I mostly do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for  
> 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--
> which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just  
> no way for me to do that.

Actually, you can define global defaults in the GobalDefaults.plist  
file, which lives in the same directory as the GNUstep configuration  
file (and you can also put simple string values directly in  
GNUstep.conf using GNUSTEP_EXTRA if you don't want the overhead of  
loading GlobalDefaults.plist).
See http://www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Base/Reference/index.html 
  and the NSUserDefaults documentation.



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[Richard Frith-Macdonald-2]

On 7 Oct 2009, at 23:37, Riccardo Mottola wrote:

> Richard, could you add the ability to change the theme icon in  
> Thematic?

It's already there ... just click on it, and an open panel will come  
up for you to select the new icon image.



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[Richard Frith-Macdonald-2]

On 7 Oct 2009, at 23:00, David Chisnall wrote:

> On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:38, Matt Rice wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi <stefanbidi@...>  
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> 13.0) there's not way for me
>>> to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI  
>>> toolkits above
>>> allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that.  I know  
>>> it's been
>>> brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly  
>>> it's because
>>> of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion)  
>>> that's where
>>> the problem lies.
>>
>> I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings
>> fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain,
>
> Unless I have missed something, NSGlobalDomain is a per-user thing.

Yes.

> There is no sensible way of setting a default value for a user  
> default globally.

GlobalDefaults.plist does that.

>  Apps can do this via the standard APIs, but there is no way for  
> packagers to provide a default value for a default.

GlobalDefaults.plist does that.

> For example, we can put Camaelon and Nesedah in a package, but there  
> is no way to make it the default theme for any users who have not  
> selected a theme as part of the package installation.

GlobalDefaults.plist does that.

> This question has been asked on the list before and no one replied  
> with a way, so I assume it is still impossible.

Maybe nobody bothered to answer, or they did and you missed it.

> It would be nice to have a standard directory for plists which are  
> merged together to provide the default user default values.  I  
> looked at doing this a while ago, but it required implementing  
> whiteout in the per-user defaults (so you could delete a default  
> that exists in this directory).

The per-user defaults override the global ones ... what we don't have  
is a mechanism for having global defaults which can't be  
overridden .... but I'm not sure we want to do that (it seems to be  
against the spirit of free software).



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