Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?

[blackrain-2]

hi !!!!!

> hahaha,
> actually this discussion was missing your point :)
> i knew when i was writing this down that you would probably send the flame
> on this point ;-)
>

oh I know...
but then, I am the grinch =)
how can I miss the opportunity to state whats a fact?
;)


> cheers,
> charles

cheers,

x

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[Nathaniel Virgo-2]

I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.

Nathaniel

2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>

Hi Pierre -

Disagreement is good, please carry on.

In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
investigate these issues.

Dan


2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:

> Sorry to disagree here.
>
>  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going
> within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is the base of
> it.
>
>  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and
> DSP.
>
>  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass
> at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional
> luthier for this.
>
>  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is
> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a
> fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
>  hugs from the North of England
>
>  pa
>
>
>
>  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>
>
> > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't
> program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't
> practiced their scales.
> >
> > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going
> back to music ;)
> > Lorien
> > Uri Sala wrote:
> >
> > > Dear list,
> > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using
> Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard
> time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that
> if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why
> the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti
> makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean,
> really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI,
> and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching
> themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets
> the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
> > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to
> shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> something that would take 1 line in SC.
> > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let
> me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs
> dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them
> whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're
> likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming
> with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said
> that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
> modules.
> > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes
> what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like
> to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points,
> print them and post them all over town.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my
> pill now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Uri
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sc-users mailing list
> > >
> > > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sc-users mailing list
> >
> > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > search:
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> >
>
>
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>
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[andrea valle-3]

That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.

Best

-a-

On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:

I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.

Nathaniel

2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>

Hi Pierre -

Disagreement is good, please carry on.

In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
investigate these issues.

Dan


2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:

> Sorry to disagree here.
>
>  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going
> within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is the base of
> it.
>
>  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and
> DSP.
>
>  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass
> at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional
> luthier for this.
>
>  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is
> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a
> fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
>  hugs from the North of England
>
>  pa
>
>
>
>  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>
>
> > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't
> program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't
> practiced their scales.
> >
> > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going
> back to music ;)
> > Lorien
> > Uri Sala wrote:
> >
> > > Dear list,
> > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using
> Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard
> time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that
> if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why
> the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti
> makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean,
> really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI,
> and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching
> themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets
> the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
> > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to
> shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> something that would take 1 line in SC.
> > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let
> me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs
> dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them
> whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're
> likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming
> with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said
> that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
> modules.
> > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes
> what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like
> to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points,
> print them and post them all over town.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my
> pill now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Uri
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sc-users mailing list
> > >
> > > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sc-users mailing list
> >
> > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> >
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  sc-users mailing list
>
>  info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>  archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>  search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>

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--------------------------------------------------

Andrea Valle

--------------------------------------------------

CIRMA - DAMS

Università degli Studi di Torino

--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/

--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle

--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/

-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle

--> andrea.valle@...

--------------------------------------------------

" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." 

(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

[thor-2]

>

> I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC  
> community is anti-MSP in particular.


Oh yes.. All SC users hate Max.

For example, I was shot with a perfume water-pistol-rifle by a  
japanese punk
in a pink dress, to whom I had confessed that I used Max (but only for  
teaching,
of course, since I am such a hunk) in a Haag nightclub a year ago.

The whole place was stinking with perfume.

Anyway, joke aside, I like to use graphical programming for some  
things, Pure Data
much preferred as it's open source and free. Why Max? To me the  
question is not of
SC vs. Max, but Pd vs. Max.

thor

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[Charles Céleste Hutchins]

Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block diagrams, which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.  It would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle <valle@...> wrote:

That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.

Best

-a-

On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:

I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.

Nathaniel

2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>

Hi Pierre -

Disagreement is good, please carry on.

In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
investigate these issues.

Dan


2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:

> Sorry to disagree here.
>
>  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going
> within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is the base of
> it.
>
>  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and
> DSP.
>
>  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass
> at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional
> luthier for this.
>
>  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is
> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a
> fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
>  hugs from the North of England
>
>  pa
>
>
>
>  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>
>
> > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't
> program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't
> practiced their scales.
> >
> > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going
> back to music ;)
> > Lorien
> > Uri Sala wrote:
> >
> > > Dear list,
> > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using
> Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard
> time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that
> if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why
> the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti
> makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean,
> really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI,
> and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching
> themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets
> the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
> > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to
> shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> something that would take 1 line in SC.
> > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let
> me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs
> dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them
> whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're
> likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming
> with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said
> that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
> modules.
> > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes
> what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like
> to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points,
> print them and post them all over town.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my
> pill now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Uri
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sc-users mailing list
> > >
> > > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sc-users mailing list
> >
> > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> >
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  sc-users mailing list
>
>  info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>  archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>  search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>

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--------------------------------------------------

Andrea Valle

--------------------------------------------------

CIRMA - DAMS

Università degli Studi di Torino

--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/

--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle

--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/

-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle

--> andrea.valle@...

--------------------------------------------------

" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." 

(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

--
cheers,
Les

--
Charles Céleste Hutchins http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh/podcast/
2430 5th St Ste N
Berkeley, CA 94710
USA

9 Matilda House
St Katharine's Way
London
E1W 1LQ
United Kingdom

Commission music (cheap!): http://celesteh.etsy.com

[nescivi]

On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
> Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block diagrams,
> which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.  It
> would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams
> down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.

There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.

sincerely,
Marije

>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle <valle@...> wrote:
> > That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so
> > that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.
> > Best
> >
> > -a-
> >
> > On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:
> >
> > I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though
> > it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of
> > SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write
> > little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically
> > - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would
> > be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical
> > metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find
> > text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.
> >
> > Nathaniel
> >
> >
> > 2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>
> >
> > Hi Pierre -
> >
> >> Disagreement is good, please carry on.
> >>
> >> In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
> >> rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
> >> all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
> >> different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
> >> and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
> >> would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
> >> patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
> >> managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
> >> investigate these issues.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
> >> > Sorry to disagree here.
> >> >
> >> >  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> >> > going within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is
> >> > the base
> >>
> >> of
> >>
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> >  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> > DSP.
> >> >
> >> >  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> >> > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play
> >>
> >> bass
> >>
> >> > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
> >>
> >> professional
> >>
> >> > luthier for this.
> >> >
> >> >  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
> >> > community
> >>
> >> is
> >>
> >> > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC
> >>
> >> being a
> >>
> >> > fantastic, different, complementary tool.
> >> >
> >> >  hugs from the North of England
> >> >
> >> >  pa
> >> >
> >> >  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
> >> > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play
> >> > > out
> >> >
> >> > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you
> >>
> >> can't
> >>
> >> > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who
> >>
> >> hasn't
> >>
> >> > practiced their scales.
> >> >
> >> > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
> >> > > going
> >> >
> >> > back to music ;)
> >> >
> >> > > Lorien
> >> > >
> >> > > Uri Sala wrote:
> >> > > > Dear list,
> >> > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> >> >
> >> > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> >> > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
> >> > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school
> >> > have a
> >>
> >> hard
> >>
> >> > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced
> >>
> >> that
> >>
> >> > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to
> >> > my
> >>
> >> why
> >>
> >> > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of
> >> > spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't
> >> > get it. I
> >>
> >> mean,
> >>
> >> > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic
> >>
> >> music
> >>
> >> > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice
> >>
> >> GUI,
> >>
> >> > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> >> > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start
> >>
> >> patching
> >>
> >> > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user
> >>
> >> gets
> >>
> >> > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> >> > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a
> >>
> >> week.
> >>
> >> > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my
> >> > > > strong
> >> >
> >> > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >> > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> >> > something that would take 1 line in SC.
> >> >
> >> > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.
> >> > > > Well,
> >>
> >> let
> >>
> >> > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma.
> >>
> >> Coding vs
> >>
> >> > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> >> > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of
> >> > them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and
> >> > you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great
> >> > programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even
> >> > Miller Puckette
> >>
> >> said
> >>
> >> > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher
> >> > for
> >>
> >> C
> >>
> >> > modules.
> >> >
> >> > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
> >>
> >> exposes
> >>
> >> > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I
> >> > would
> >>
> >> like
> >>
> >> > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest
> >>
> >> points,
> >>
> >> > print them and post them all over town.
> >> >
> >> > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will
> >> > > > have
> >>
> >> my
> >>
> >> > pill now.
> >> >
> >> > > > Cheers
> >> > > > Uri

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[Tim Walters]

> despite the supposed fact that
> 'real men use SuperCollider', as I once read somewhere.

That might have been me--I put those exact words in a comment on Kyle
Gann's blog. I was totally kidding--his post was about Max snobbery.

--
Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com



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[James Harkins-2]

Hehe ... I just found this post.

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2006/05/postsemester_rampage_electroni.html

Not much has changed in 3 years.

hjh

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Tim Walters <walters@...> wrote:
>> despite the supposed fact that
>> 'real men use SuperCollider', as I once read somewhere.
>
> That might have been me--I put those exact words in a comment on Kyle
> Gann's blog. I was totally kidding--his post was about Max snobbery.
>
> --
> Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com


--
James Harkins /// dewdrop world
jamshark70@...
http://www.dewdrop-world.net

"Come said the Muse,
Sing me a song no poet has yet chanted,
Sing me the universal."  -- Whitman

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[Charles Céleste Hutchins]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM, nescivi <nescivi@...> wrote:

On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
> Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block diagrams,
> which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.  It
> would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams
> down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.

There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.

That's true, but if would be nice if you could generate Faust (or ultimately SC) code from block diagrams.

 

sincerely,
Marije

>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle <valle@...> wrote:
> > That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so
> > that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.
> > Best
> >
> > -a-
> >
> > On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:
> >
> > I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though
> > it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of
> > SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write
> > little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically
> > - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would
> > be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical
> > metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find
> > text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.
> >
> > Nathaniel
> >
> >
> > 2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>
> >
> > Hi Pierre -
> >
> >> Disagreement is good, please carry on.
> >>
> >> In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
> >> rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
> >> all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
> >> different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
> >> and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
> >> would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
> >> patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
> >> managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
> >> investigate these issues.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
> >> > Sorry to disagree here.
> >> >
> >> >  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> >> > going within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is
> >> > the base
> >>
> >> of
> >>
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> >  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> > DSP.
> >> >
> >> >  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> >> > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play
> >>
> >> bass
> >>
> >> > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
> >>
> >> professional
> >>
> >> > luthier for this.
> >> >
> >> >  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
> >> > community
> >>
> >> is
> >>
> >> > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC
> >>
> >> being a
> >>
> >> > fantastic, different, complementary tool.
> >> >
> >> >  hugs from the North of England
> >> >
> >> >  pa
> >> >
> >> >  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
> >> > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play
> >> > > out
> >> >
> >> > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you
> >>
> >> can't
> >>
> >> > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who
> >>
> >> hasn't
> >>
> >> > practiced their scales.
> >> >
> >> > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
> >> > > going
> >> >
> >> > back to music ;)
> >> >
> >> > > Lorien
> >> > >
> >> > > Uri Sala wrote:
> >> > > > Dear list,
> >> > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> >> >
> >> > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> >> > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
> >> > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school
> >> > have a
> >>
> >> hard
> >>
> >> > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced
> >>
> >> that
> >>
> >> > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to
> >> > my
> >>
> >> why
> >>
> >> > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of
> >> > spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't
> >> > get it. I
> >>
> >> mean,
> >>
> >> > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic
> >>
> >> music
> >>
> >> > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice
> >>
> >> GUI,
> >>
> >> > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> >> > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start
> >>
> >> patching
> >>
> >> > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user
> >>
> >> gets
> >>
> >> > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> >> > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a
> >>
> >> week.
> >>
> >> > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my
> >> > > > strong
> >> >
> >> > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >> > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> >> > something that would take 1 line in SC.
> >> >
> >> > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.
> >> > > > Well,
> >>
> >> let
> >>
> >> > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma.
> >>
> >> Coding vs
> >>
> >> > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> >> > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of
> >> > them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and
> >> > you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great
> >> > programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even
> >> > Miller Puckette
> >>
> >> said
> >>
> >> > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher
> >> > for
> >>
> >> C
> >>
> >> > modules.
> >> >
> >> > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
> >>
> >> exposes
> >>
> >> > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I
> >> > would
> >>
> >> like
> >>
> >> > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest
> >>
> >> points,
> >>
> >> > print them and post them all over town.
> >> >
> >> > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will
> >> > > > have
> >>
> >> my
> >>
> >> > pill now.
> >> >
> >> > > > Cheers
> >> > > > Uri

_______________________________________________
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--
cheers,
Les

--
Charles Céleste Hutchins http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh/podcast/
2430 5th St Ste N
Berkeley, CA 94710
USA

9 Matilda House
St Katharine's Way
London
E1W 1LQ
United Kingdom

Commission music (cheap!): http://celesteh.etsy.com

[andrea valle-3]

To create a synthDef from a GUI with blocks representing UG shouldn't be that difficult.

When you'r ready you create the SynthDef, and an auto GUI for  tweaking the synth and testing.

To have the GUI run in RT, like a patcher, is more complicated

Best

-a-

On 25 Apr 2009, at 04:03, Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM, nescivi <nescivi@...> wrote:

On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
> Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block diagrams,
> which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.  It
> would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams
> down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.

There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.

That's true, but if would be nice if you could generate Faust (or ultimately SC) code from block diagrams.

 

sincerely,
Marije

>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle <valle@...> wrote:
> > That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so
> > that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.
> > Best
> >
> > -a-
> >
> > On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:
> >
> > I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though
> > it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of
> > SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write
> > little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically
> > - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would
> > be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical
> > metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find
> > text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.
> >
> > Nathaniel
> >
> >
> > 2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>
> >
> > Hi Pierre -
> >
> >> Disagreement is good, please carry on.
> >>
> >> In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
> >> rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
> >> all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
> >> different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
> >> and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
> >> would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
> >> patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
> >> managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
> >> investigate these issues.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
> >> > Sorry to disagree here.
> >> >
> >> >  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> >> > going within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is
> >> > the base
> >>
> >> of
> >>
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> >  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> > DSP.
> >> >
> >> >  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> >> > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play
> >>
> >> bass
> >>
> >> > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
> >>
> >> professional
> >>
> >> > luthier for this.
> >> >
> >> >  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
> >> > community
> >>
> >> is
> >>
> >> > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC
> >>
> >> being a
> >>
> >> > fantastic, different, complementary tool.
> >> >
> >> >  hugs from the North of England
> >> >
> >> >  pa
> >> >
> >> >  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
> >> > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play
> >> > > out
> >> >
> >> > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you
> >>
> >> can't
> >>
> >> > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who
> >>
> >> hasn't
> >>
> >> > practiced their scales.
> >> >
> >> > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
> >> > > going
> >> >
> >> > back to music ;)
> >> >
> >> > > Lorien
> >> > >
> >> > > Uri Sala wrote:
> >> > > > Dear list,
> >> > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> >> >
> >> > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> >> > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
> >> > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school
> >> > have a
> >>
> >> hard
> >>
> >> > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced
> >>
> >> that
> >>
> >> > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to
> >> > my
> >>
> >> why
> >>
> >> > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of
> >> > spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't
> >> > get it. I
> >>
> >> mean,
> >>
> >> > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic
> >>
> >> music
> >>
> >> > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice
> >>
> >> GUI,
> >>
> >> > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> >> > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start
> >>
> >> patching
> >>
> >> > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user
> >>
> >> gets
> >>
> >> > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> >> > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a
> >>
> >> week.
> >>
> >> > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my
> >> > > > strong
> >> >
> >> > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >> > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> >> > something that would take 1 line in SC.
> >> >
> >> > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.
> >> > > > Well,
> >>
> >> let
> >>
> >> > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma.
> >>
> >> Coding vs
> >>
> >> > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> >> > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of
> >> > them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and
> >> > you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great
> >> > programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even
> >> > Miller Puckette
> >>
> >> said
> >>
> >> > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher
> >> > for
> >>
> >> C
> >>
> >> > modules.
> >> >
> >> > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
> >>
> >> exposes
> >>
> >> > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I
> >> > would
> >>
> >> like
> >>
> >> > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest
> >>
> >> points,
> >>
> >> > print them and post them all over town.
> >> >
> >> > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will
> >> > > > have
> >>
> >> my
> >>
> >> > pill now.
> >> >
> >> > > > Cheers
> >> > > > Uri

_______________________________________________
sc-users mailing list

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--
cheers,
Les

--
Charles Céleste Hutchins http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh/podcast/
2430 5th St Ste N
Berkeley, CA 94710
USA

9 Matilda House
St Katharine's Way
London
E1W 1LQ
United Kingdom

Commission music (cheap!): http://celesteh.etsy.com

--------------------------------------------------

Andrea Valle

--------------------------------------------------

CIRMA - DAMS

Università degli Studi di Torino

--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/

--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle

--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/

-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle

--> andrea.valle@...

--------------------------------------------------

" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." 

(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

[Sciss-3]

i don't see really why you would need such a GUI patcher (merely for  
SynthDef) if it wasn't much smarter than PD/ Max. e.g., the  
interesting questions would be:

- how could you represent multichannel expansion?
- how could you represent the container of the ugen, i.e. the synth  
objects along with their dynamic appearing / disappearing, their bus  
interrouting, graph (group) topology etc.

ciao, -sciss-


Am 25.04.2009 um 09:49 schrieb Andrea Valle:

> To create a synthDef from a GUI with blocks representing UG  
> shouldn't be that difficult.
> When you'r ready you create the SynthDef, and an auto GUI for  
> tweaking the synth and testing.
> To have the GUI run in RT, like a patcher, is more complicated
>
> Best
>
> -a-
>
> On 25 Apr 2009, at 04:03, Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM, nescivi <nescivi@...> wrote:
>> On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
>> > Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for  
>> block diagrams,
>> > which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is  
>> text.  It
>> > would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block  
>> diagrams
>> > down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.
>>
>> There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.
>>
>> That's true, but if would be nice if you could generate Faust (or  
>> ultimately SC) code from block diagrams.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Marije
>>
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle  
>> <valle@...> wrote:
>> > > That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a  
>> SynthDef so
>> > > that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.
>> > > Best
>> > >
>> > > -a-
>> > >
>> > > On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms,  
>> though
>> > > it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of
>> > > SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can  
>> write
>> > > little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together  
>> graphically
>> > > - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  
>> It would
>> > > be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the  
>> graphical
>> > > metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically,  
>> but I find
>> > > text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis  
>> ideas.
>> > >
>> > > Nathaniel
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>
>> > >
>> > > Hi Pierre -
>> > >
>> > >> Disagreement is good, please carry on.
>> > >>
>> > >> In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is  
>> actually quite
>> > >> rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and  
>> sc (and
>> > >> all the other environments that offer similar possibilities)  
>> have
>> > >> different learning curves and make different things difficult/
>> easy,
>> > >> and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I  
>> for one
>> > >> would like to read more research on this topic - I only  
>> rarely use
>> > >> patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal  
>> experience of
>> > >> managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read  
>> studies which
>> > >> investigate these issues.
>> > >>
>> > >> Dan
>> > >>
>> > >> 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
>> > >> > Sorry to disagree here.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and  
>> get them
>> > >> > going within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and  
>> play is
>> > >> > the base
>> > >>
>> > >> of
>> > >>
>> > >> > it.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not  
>> confuse pedagogy
>> > >>
>> > >> and
>> > >>
>> > >> > DSP.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by  
>> completely
>> > >> > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely  
>> flawed. I play
>> > >>
>> > >> bass
>> > >>
>> > >> > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
>> > >>
>> > >> professional
>> > >>
>> > >> > luthier for this.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
>> > >> > community
>> > >>
>> > >> is
>> > >>
>> > >> > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest  
>> despite SC
>> > >>
>> > >> being a
>> > >>
>> > >> > fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  hugs from the North of England
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  pa
>> > >> >
>> > >> >  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>> > >> > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn  
>> to play
>> > >> > > out
>> > >> >
>> > >> > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument  
>> and you
>> > >>
>> > >> can't
>> > >>
>> > >> > program in a proper programming language, then you're the  
>> student who
>> > >>
>> > >> hasn't
>> > >>
>> > >> > practiced their scales.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia  
>> before
>> > >> > > going
>> > >> >
>> > >> > back to music ;)
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Lorien
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Uri Sala wrote:
>> > >> > > > Dear list,
>> > >> > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about  
>> the cheap
>> > >> >
>> > >> > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75%  
>> of the
>> > >> > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music  
>> has been
>> > >> > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced  
>> guys at school
>> > >> > have a
>> > >>
>> > >> hard
>> > >>
>> > >> > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am  
>> totally convinced
>> > >>
>> > >> that
>> > >>
>> > >> > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody  
>> explain to
>> > >> > my
>> > >>
>> > >> why
>> > >>
>> > >> > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of
>> > >> > spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I  
>> really don't
>> > >> > get it. I
>> > >>
>> > >> mean,
>> > >>
>> > >> > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning  
>> electronic
>> > >>
>> > >> music
>> > >>
>> > >> > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that  
>> is, a nice
>> > >>
>> > >> GUI,
>> > >>
>> > >> > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that,  
>> under that nice
>> > >> > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until  
>> they start
>> > >>
>> > >> patching
>> > >>
>> > >> > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line,  
>> every Max user
>> > >>
>> > >> gets
>> > >>
>> > >> > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe  
>> text would
>> > >> > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took  
>> me about a
>> > >>
>> > >> week.
>> > >>
>> > >> > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory  
>> for my
>> > >> > > > strong
>> > >> >
>> > >> > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a  
>> teacher tries
>> > >>
>> > >> to
>> > >>
>> > >> > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with  
>> nonsense to do
>> > >> > something that would take 1 line in SC.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal  
>> preference.
>> > >> > > > Well,
>> > >>
>> > >> let
>> > >>
>> > >> > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid  
>> dilemma.
>> > >>
>> > >> Coding vs
>> > >>
>> > >> > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non  
>> musical)
>> > >> > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask  
>> any of
>> > >> > them whether they think it would be better to program in  
>> that way and
>> > >> > you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have  
>> done great
>> > >> > programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too.  
>> Hey, even
>> > >> > Miller Puckette
>> > >>
>> > >> said
>> > >>
>> > >> > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use  
>> as patcher
>> > >> > for
>> > >>
>> > >> C
>> > >>
>> > >> > modules.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text  
>> somewhere that
>> > >>
>> > >> exposes
>> > >>
>> > >> > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If  
>> not, I
>> > >> > would
>> > >>
>> > >> like
>> > >>
>> > >> > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the  
>> strongest
>> > >>
>> > >> points,
>> > >>
>> > >> > print them and post them all over town.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning.  
>> I will
>> > >> > > > have
>> > >>
>> > >> my
>> > >>
>> > >> > pill now.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > > Cheers
>> > >> > > > Uri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>>
>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/ 
>> sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> cheers,
>> Les
>>
>> --
>> Charles Céleste Hutchins http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh/ 
>> podcast/
>> 2430 5th St Ste N
>> Berkeley, CA 94710
>> USA
>>
>> 9 Matilda House
>> St Katharine's Way
>> London
>> E1W 1LQ
>> United Kingdom
>>
>> Commission music (cheap!): http://celesteh.etsy.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Andrea Valle
> --------------------------------------------------
> CIRMA - DAMS
> Università degli Studi di Torino
> --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
> --> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
> --> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
> -->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
> --> andrea.valle@...
> --------------------------------------------------
> " This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a  
> lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
> (Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)
>

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[andrea valle-3]

I cannot say anything more than agreeing that you're right.

But sometimes I wonder about drawing on a paper a diagram and convert it into a sythDef...

A gui would be less funny but not totally useless

Best

-a-

On 25 Apr 2009, at 10:03, Sciss wrote:

i don't see really why you would need such a GUI patcher (merely for SynthDef) if it wasn't much smarter than PD/ Max. e.g., the interesting questions would be:

- how could you represent multichannel expansion?

- how could you represent the container of the ugen, i.e. the synth objects along with their dynamic appearing / disappearing, their bus interrouting, graph (group) topology etc.

ciao, -sciss-

Am 25.04.2009 um 09:49 schrieb Andrea Valle:

To create a synthDef from a GUI with blocks representing UG shouldn't be that difficult.

When you'r ready you create the SynthDef, and an auto GUI for  tweaking the synth and testing.

To have the GUI run in RT, like a patcher, is more complicated

Best

-a-

On 25 Apr 2009, at 04:03, Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM, nescivi <nescivi@...> wrote:

On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:

> Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block diagrams,

> which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.  It

> would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams

> down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.

There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.

That's true, but if would be nice if you could generate Faust (or ultimately SC) code from block diagrams.

sincerely,

Marije

>

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Andrea Valle <valle@...> wrote:

> > That's a good point. In the BabaKoto I often wrap a UGen in a SynthDef so

> > that graphically  patching Synth coincides with patching Ugens.

> > Best

> >

> > -a-

> >

> > On 24 Apr 2009, at 16:26, Nathaniel Virgo wrote:

> >

> > I've actually often daydreamed of combining the two paradigms, though

> > it's a project I will probably never have time for: a kind of

> > SuperCollider IDE (written in SC most likely) in which you can write

> > little re-useable modules in SC code and patch them together graphically

> > - and you can just double-click on them to get a code editor.  It would

> > be the best of both worlds from my perspective because the graphical

> > metaphor is sometimes very helpful when thinking musically, but I find

> > text vastly superior for expressing more low-level synthesis ideas.

> >

> > Nathaniel

> >

> >

> > 2009/4/24 Dan Stowell <danstowell@...>

> >

> > Hi Pierre -

> >

> >> Disagreement is good, please carry on.

> >>

> >> In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite

> >> rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and

> >> all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have

> >> different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,

> >> and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one

> >> would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use

> >> patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of

> >> managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which

> >> investigate these issues.

> >>

> >> Dan

> >>

> >> 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:

> >> > Sorry to disagree here.

> >> >

> >> >  As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them

> >> > going within an hour.  Not with SC.  The intuitive plug and play is

> >> > the base

> >>

> >> of

> >>

> >> > it.

> >> >

> >> >  SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy

> >>

> >> and

> >>

> >> > DSP.

> >> >

> >> >  And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely

> >> > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play

> >>

> >> bass

> >>

> >> > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a

> >>

> >> professional

> >>

> >> > luthier for this.

> >> >

> >> >  No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC

> >> > community

> >>

> >> is

> >>

> >> > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC

> >>

> >> being a

> >>

> >> > fantastic, different, complementary tool.

> >> >

> >> >  hugs from the North of England

> >> >

> >> >  pa

> >> >

> >> >  Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :

> >> > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play

> >> > > out

> >> >

> >> > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you

> >>

> >> can't

> >>

> >> > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who

> >>

> >> hasn't

> >>

> >> > practiced their scales.

> >> >

> >> > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before

> >> > > going

> >> >

> >> > back to music ;)

> >> >

> >> > > Lorien

> >> > >

> >> > > Uri Sala wrote:

> >> > > > Dear list,

> >> > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap

> >> >

> >> > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the

> >> > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been

> >> > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school

> >> > have a

> >>

> >> hard

> >>

> >> > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced

> >>

> >> that

> >>

> >> > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to

> >> > my

> >>

> >> why

> >>

> >> > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of

> >> > spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't

> >> > get it. I

> >>

> >> mean,

> >>

> >> > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic

> >>

> >> music

> >>

> >> > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice

> >>

> >> GUI,

> >>

> >> > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice

> >> > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start

> >>

> >> patching

> >>

> >> > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user

> >>

> >> gets

> >>

> >> > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would

> >> > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a

> >>

> >> week.

> >>

> >> > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my

> >> > > > strong

> >> >

> >> > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries

> >>

> >> to

> >>

> >> > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do

> >> > something that would take 1 line in SC.

> >> >

> >> > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.

> >> > > > Well,

> >>

> >> let

> >>

> >> > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma.

> >>

> >> Coding vs

> >>

> >> > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)

> >> > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of

> >> > them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and

> >> > you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great

> >> > programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even

> >> > Miller Puckette

> >>

> >> said

> >>

> >> > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher

> >> > for

> >>

> >> C

> >>

> >> > modules.

> >> >

> >> > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that

> >>

> >> exposes

> >>

> >> > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I

> >> > would

> >>

> >> like

> >>

> >> > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest

> >>

> >> points,

> >>

> >> > print them and post them all over town.

> >> >

> >> > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will

> >> > > > have

> >>

> >> my

> >>

> >> > pill now.

> >> >

> >> > > > Cheers

> >> > > > Uri

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-- 

cheers,

Les

--

Charles Céleste Hutchins http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh/podcast/

2430 5th St Ste N

Berkeley, CA 94710

USA

9 Matilda House

St Katharine's Way

London

E1W 1LQ

United Kingdom

Commission music (cheap!): http://celesteh.etsy.com

--------------------------------------------------

Andrea Valle

--------------------------------------------------

CIRMA - DAMS

Università degli Studi di Torino

--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/

--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle

--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/

-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle

--> andrea.valle@...

--------------------------------------------------

" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."

(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

_______________________________________________

sc-users mailing list

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--------------------------------------------------

Andrea Valle

--------------------------------------------------

CIRMA - DAMS

Università degli Studi di Torino

--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/

--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle

--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/

-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle

--> andrea.valle@...

--------------------------------------------------

" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." 

(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

[Andrew Pascoe]

While I much prefer coding to graphical programming, there are some  
instances in which a graphical interface is useful for seeing how a  
program should operate (see, for example, UML).  I think a feature  
that I would like to see in SC is something that goes like this:

Pressing the 'enter' button in SC could be equated with a bang object  
from Max or Pd.  In this paradigm, blocks on the screen represent  
chunks of code, and when a block receives a bang message, that code  
gets evaluated.  In this sense, the GUI functions as more of  
representation of a scheduler than anything else.  It's not always a  
simple task to determine in SC code exactly what will get evaluated  
when.  In Max, this sort of thing is inherently apparent (provided  
it's not horrible "spaghetti code").  One could also do something  
like when a block of code finishes evaluating, it passes a bang  
message on through an outlet, thus ensuring that certain code will  
always get evaluated after other code.

--Andrew

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[miguel.negrao]

Andrew Pascoe escreveu:

> While I much prefer coding to graphical programming, there are some
> instances in which a graphical interface is useful for seeing how a
> program should operate (see, for example, UML).  I think a feature that
> I would like to see in SC is something that goes like this:
>
> Pressing the 'enter' button in SC could be equated with a bang object
> from Max or Pd.  In this paradigm, blocks on the screen represent chunks
> of code, and when a block receives a bang message, that code gets
> evaluated.  In this sense, the GUI functions as more of representation
> of a scheduler than anything else.  It's not always a simple task to
> determine in SC code exactly what will get evaluated when.  In Max, this
> sort of thing is inherently apparent (provided it's not horrible
> "spaghetti code").  One could also do something like when a block of
> code finishes evaluating, it passes a bang message on through an outlet,
> thus ensuring that certain code will always get evaluated after other code.
>
> --Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
>

bang logic is a nightmare ! just the thought of having to deal with that
again leaves me felling a bit sick. In supercollider i've never had
problems with knowing what gets executed first, it's usually quite clear
  I think.

--
Miguel Negrão // ZLB
http://www.friendlyvirus.org/artists/zlb/

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[Andrew Pascoe]

I believe it depends on how much of the "bang logic" you choose to  
implement.  Max becomes a nightmare when you have to do things like  
have hot and cold inlets, forcing you to store things in float  
objects, and you may never be exactly sure about what data is flowing  
where at a particular time.  On the other hand, just using bangs to  
schedule things I find to be very intuitive.  A metro object is very  
clear in its definition, and you can use counters and selects to  
trigger things at very specific times with no ambiguity.  And if you  
bother to make a tidy patch, it's all right there for you to see  
without sifting through code that may have multiple routines running  
on different tempo clocks, or whatever.

Also, having a GUI for chunks of code encourages more modular  
programming.  There's a reason that complex software applications are  
(or should be) modeled before coding even begins.  As I said before,  
there's a reason UML exists: it's nice to be able to organize your  
thoughts, see how a program flows, and then fill in the details.  
Even if you didn't have any sort of bang logic, I believe it would be  
a really cool feature for SC to graphically represent chunks of code  
that say, you can click on to execute.  I just like the bang logic  
for automatically scheduling these executions.

--Andrew


On 25.04.2009, at 13:33, Miguel Negrao wrote:

> Andrew Pascoe escreveu:
>> While I much prefer coding to graphical programming, there are  
>> some instances in which a graphical interface is useful for seeing  
>> how a program should operate (see, for example, UML).  I think a  
>> feature that I would like to see in SC is something that goes like  
>> this:
>> Pressing the 'enter' button in SC could be equated with a bang  
>> object from Max or Pd.  In this paradigm, blocks on the screen  
>> represent chunks of code, and when a block receives a bang  
>> message, that code gets evaluated.  In this sense, the GUI  
>> functions as more of representation of a scheduler than anything  
>> else.  It's not always a simple task to determine in SC code  
>> exactly what will get evaluated when.  In Max, this sort of thing  
>> is inherently apparent (provided it's not horrible "spaghetti  
>> code").  One could also do something like when a block of code  
>> finishes evaluating, it passes a bang message on through an  
>> outlet, thus ensuring that certain code will always get evaluated  
>> after other code.
>> --Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/ 
>> sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> bang logic is a nightmare ! just the thought of having to deal with  
> that again leaves me felling a bit sick. In supercollider i've  
> never had problems with knowing what gets executed first, it's  
> usually quite clear  I think.
>
> --
> Miguel Negrão // ZLB
> http://www.friendlyvirus.org/artists/zlb/
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/ 
> sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/

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[nescivi]

On Friday 24 April 2009 22:03:45 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM, nescivi <nescivi@...> wrote:
> > On Friday 24 April 2009 12:14:14 Charles Céleste Hutchins wrote:
> > > Max/PD's strength is rapid prototyping.  It's also good for block
> > diagrams,
> > > which, for me, is an easier way to conceive of synthesis than is text.
> >  It
> > > would be really nice if there was a way to compile these block diagrams
> > > down to UGens.  Some kind of Faust add-on would be cool.
> >
> > There is. You can create UGens from Faust code.
>
> That's true, but if would be nice if you could generate Faust (or
> ultimately SC) code from block diagrams.
>

The IDE of Faust seems to have come a long way. At least I remember seeing a
blockdiagram with the code, during the talk about Faust on the LAC this year.

http://lad.linuxaudio.org/events/2009_cdm/slides/faust_presentation_lac2009.pdf
page 48


sincerely,
Marije

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[nescivi]

On Saturday 25 April 2009 13:17:47 Andrew Pascoe wrote:

> While I much prefer coding to graphical programming, there are some
> instances in which a graphical interface is useful for seeing how a
> program should operate (see, for example, UML).  I think a feature
> that I would like to see in SC is something that goes like this:
>
> Pressing the 'enter' button in SC could be equated with a bang object
> from Max or Pd.  In this paradigm, blocks on the screen represent
> chunks of code, and when a block receives a bang message, that code
> gets evaluated.  In this sense, the GUI functions as more of
> representation of a scheduler than anything else.  It's not always a
> simple task to determine in SC code exactly what will get evaluated
> when.  In Max, this sort of thing is inherently apparent (provided
> it's not horrible "spaghetti code").  One could also do something
> like when a block of code finishes evaluating, it passes a bang
> message on through an outlet, thus ensuring that certain code will
> always get evaluated after other code.

Cesare Marilungo made a bridge with Squeak, you can still download it here,
http://www.cesaremarilungo.com/download/SuperCollider-Morphs20070524.st

but unfortunately he is redesigning his website and has taken anything else
down (like screencasts).

I tried it some years back, and it allows you to have little blocks of code
and connect them with wires.

sincerely,
Marije

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[Scott Wilson-3]

This sort of thing would not be too hard to do with the existing GUI.

S.

On 25 Apr 2009, at 23:55, nescivi wrote:

> On Saturday 25 April 2009 13:17:47 Andrew Pascoe wrote:
>> While I much prefer coding to graphical programming, there are some
>> instances in which a graphical interface is useful for seeing how a
>> program should operate (see, for example, UML).  I think a feature
>> that I would like to see in SC is something that goes like this:
>>
>> Pressing the 'enter' button in SC could be equated with a bang object
>> from Max or Pd.  In this paradigm, blocks on the screen represent
>> chunks of code, and when a block receives a bang message, that code
>> gets evaluated.  In this sense, the GUI functions as more of
>> representation of a scheduler than anything else.  It's not always a
>> simple task to determine in SC code exactly what will get evaluated
>> when.  In Max, this sort of thing is inherently apparent (provided
>> it's not horrible "spaghetti code").  One could also do something
>> like when a block of code finishes evaluating, it passes a bang
>> message on through an outlet, thus ensuring that certain code will
>> always get evaluated after other code.
>
> Cesare Marilungo made a bridge with Squeak, you can still download  
> it here,
> http://www.cesaremarilungo.com/download/SuperCollider- 
> Morphs20070524.st
>
> but unfortunately he is redesigning his website and has taken  
> anything else
> down (like screencasts).
>
> I tried it some years back, and it allows you to have little blocks  
> of code
> and connect them with wires.
>
> sincerely,
> Marije
>
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> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
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[blackrain-2]

hey thor =)
please dont take me anti 'name a fav platform', I just used the space
to quote some well known flacks.

I do know they do offer audio rate patches - yet, the approach doesnt
really interface 'fully'. I could as well call r3aktwer ( =) doesnt do
it better.

no - I am not anti MSP.
ppl do what they can with the tools they get.

cheers,

x

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:02 AM, thor <th.list@...> wrote:

>
>
>>
>
>> I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC
>> community is anti-MSP in particular.
>
>
> Oh yes.. All SC users hate Max.
>
> For example, I was shot with a perfume water-pistol-rifle by a japanese punk
> in a pink dress, to whom I had confessed that I used Max (but only for
> teaching,
> of course, since I am such a hunk) in a Haag nightclub a year ago.
>
> The whole place was stinking with perfume.
>
> Anyway, joke aside, I like to use graphical programming for some things,
> Pure Data
> much preferred as it's open source and free. Why Max? To me the question is
> not of
> SC vs. Max, but Pd vs. Max.
>
> thor
>
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