Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
|
View:
New views
20 Messages
—
Rating Filter:
Alert me
|
| < Prev | 1 - 2 | Next > |
 |
Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by urisala
::
Rate this Message:
Dear list,
Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC. Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules. I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town. Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my pill now. Cheers Uri _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by andrea valle-3
::
Rate this Message:
Uri,
I totally agree here, as many I guess. Let's say. If you have to prototype a DSP engine, no control flow, maybe you can be faster and more intuitive with spaghetti. Every time you need organization, intelligence, modularity etc it's better if you eat spaghetti and learn to write code. This said, my multimedia students are scared by code (yes, it's bizarre, what can I do?) I've always appreciated Miller Puckette: " Programming in Max Musicians have often used Max as a programming environment, at which Max succeeds only very awkwardly. There is no concept of scoping or namespaces in Max; all symbols and their bindings live in one flat space. This decision was made to re- move a layer of complexity that did not seem strictly necessary in the context of computer music production, in order to make Max as accessible as possible to people who are not professional com- puter programmers. Further, Max lacks any notion of linear "control flow" such as is fundamental in any real-world pro- gramming environment. The whole notion of con- trol flow, with loops, conditionals, and subroutines, is easy to express in text languages, but thus far, graphical programming languages have not found the same fluency or economy of expression as text languages have. Rather than a programming environment, Max is fundamentally a system for scheduling real-time tasks and managing communication among them. " ( Max at Seventeen Author(s): Miller Puckette Source: Computer Music Journal, Vol. 26, No. 4, Languages and Environments for Computer Music (Winter, 2002), pp. 31-43 ) -a- On 24 Apr 2009, at 10:38, Uri Sala wrote:
-------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - DAMS Università degli Studi di Torino --> andrea.valle@... -------------------------------------------------- " This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." (Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski) |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Dan Stowell
::
Rate this Message:
M. Petre. Why looking isn’t always seeing: readership skills and
graphical programming. Communications of the ACM, 38(6):33–44, 1995. http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/203241.203251 " Graphical representations are more challenging than they appear at first. This article refers to research results to consider why the attractions of graphical representations are not matched by performance, putting forth the arguments: • that much of what contributes to the comprehensibility of a graphical representation isn’t part of the formal programming notation but a ‘secondary notation’ of layout, typographic cues, and graphical enhancements that is subject to individual skill; • that graphical readership is an acquired skill: structure, relationships, and relevance aren’t universally obvious; • that experts ‘see’ differently and use different strategies from novice graphical programmers; • that, although some of their touted qualities may be illusory, graphical representations are nevertheless persistently appealing and that this appeal may have its own value; • that the role of graphics in notation must be addressed realistically, rather than simplistically. " 2009/4/24, Uri Sala <urisala@...>: > Dear list, > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap analogy, > but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the theoretical > knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using Max/MSP. Most > of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard time grasping > the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that if they used > SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that > coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to > program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. Actually I > do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music student sees a Max > patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max > looks neat. They never think that, under that nice looking main patch is > hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure > that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so > many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind of > feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do > something that would take 1 line in SC. > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let me > get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical) > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them > whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're > likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming > with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C > modules. > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes what > I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like to > know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points, > print them and post them all over town. > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my pill > now. > > Cheers > Uri > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > -- http://www.mcld.co.uk _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by loriend
::
Rate this Message:
As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't practiced their scales. From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going back to music ;) Lorien Uri Sala wrote: > Dear list, > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school > have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am > totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much faster. > Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard and that > having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to program is still > in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. Actually I do, or I > think I do. When the beginning electronic music student sees a Max > patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, and thinks > WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice looking > main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user > gets the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text > would actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me > about a week. > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries > to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do > something that would take 1 line in SC. > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, > let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. > Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non > musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask > any of them whether they think it would be better to program in that > way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done > great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, > even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought out to program > with, just to use as patcher for C modules. > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I > would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the > strongest points, print them and post them all over town. > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my > pill now. > > Cheers > Uri > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Pierre Alexandre Tremblay
::
Rate this Message:
Sorry to disagree here.
As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is the base of it. SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and DSP. And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional luthier for this. No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool. hugs from the North of England pa Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play > out instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and > you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the > student who hasn't practiced their scales. > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before > going back to music ;) > Lorien > Uri Sala wrote: >> Dear list, >> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap >> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the >> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been >> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at >> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. >> I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much >> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard >> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to >> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. >> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic >> music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that >> is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think >> that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of >> subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, >> eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are >> so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be >> better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. >> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my >> strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a >> teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen >> with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC. >> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. >> Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a >> valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you >> know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes >> and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better >> to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course >> many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a >> soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was >> not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C >> modules. >> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that >> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If >> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to >> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town. >> >> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will >> have my pill now. >> >> Cheers >> Uri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sc-users mailing list >> >> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/ >> sc_mailing_lists.shtml >> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ >> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/ > sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by loriend
::
Rate this Message:
Ha,
no problem, I think all the max family are pretty neat for getting simple things up and running quickly, but complex things turn into a nightmare in my experience. I think Max MSP is far better for in class demos than SC because of the quick drag and drop GUI stuff, but for a serious project I find data flow "languages" agony. So I'm all for using Max like things for an introduction to interactive music, but think proper programming needs to be taught too, and several of my old study mates who stuck with Max have wished they'd learned C and C++ after seeing/hearing some of the things I did with video game audio systems. I seriously don't understand how anyone can disagree with programming being like scales for a computer musician, but I was trying to be inflammatory as requested. cheers, L Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote: > Sorry to disagree here. > > As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them > going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is > the base of it. > > SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy > and DSP. > > And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play > bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a > professional luthier for this. > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community > is probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite > SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool. > > hugs from the North of England > > pa > > > > Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > >> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out >> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you >> can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the >> student who hasn't practiced their scales. >> >> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before >> going back to music ;) >> Lorien >> Uri Sala wrote: >>> Dear list, >>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap >>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the >>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been >>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at >>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I >>> am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much >>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard >>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to >>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. >>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music >>> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a >>> nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, >>> under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, >>> until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually >>> along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many >>> cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind >>> of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. >>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong >>> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher >>> tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with >>> nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC. >>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, >>> let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid >>> dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know >>> any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and >>> cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to >>> program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many >>> people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with >>> a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought >>> out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules. >>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that >>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If >>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to >>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town. >>> >>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have >>> my pill now. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Uri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sc-users mailing list >>> >>> info (subscription, etc.): >>> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml >>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ >>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sc-users mailing list >> >> info (subscription, etc.): >> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml >> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ >> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Dan Stowell
::
Rate this Message:
Hi Pierre -
Disagreement is good, please carry on. In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy, and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which investigate these issues. Dan 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>: > Sorry to disagree here. > > As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going > within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is the base of > it. > > SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and > DSP. > > And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional > luthier for this. > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a > fantastic, different, complementary tool. > > hugs from the North of England > > pa > > > > Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > > > > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't > practiced their scales. > > > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going > back to music ;) > > Lorien > > Uri Sala wrote: > > > > > Dear list, > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using > Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti > makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do > something that would take 1 line in SC. > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical) > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them > whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're > likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming > with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C > modules. > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points, > print them and post them all over town. > > > > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my > pill now. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Uri > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sc-users mailing list > > > > > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > > > archive: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > > > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sc-users mailing list > > > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > > archive: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > -- http://www.mcld.co.uk _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
::
Rate this Message:
There's this:
http://www.nici.kun.nl/mmm/papers/dh-93-b.txt This used to be on the Cycling website but they seem to have taken it down. I think the thing with Max is that it was supposed to appeal to analog studio users, but as Ron once pointed out to me the old situation is reversed, with digital studio techniques now being 'basic' and analog being 'advanced'. This rather decreases the utility of the patching metaphor. I can think of a couple of things that contribute to the perception that max is 'easier'. The first is that Max does not constitute 'real programming', and that 'real programming' is hard. That's mostly prevalent amongst older users. More relevant is the fact that a language like SC requires you to deal with levels of abstraction more immediately. This is a small hurdle to get over mostly, but it can seem quite intimidating. I like to give an example like this to people: ( // harmonic swimming play({ var f, p, z, offset; f = 50; // fundamental frequency p = 20; // number of partials per channel z = 0.0; // start of oscil daisy chain offset = Line.kr(0, -0.02, 60); // causes sound to separate and fade p.do({ arg i; z = FSinOsc.ar(f * (i+1), 0, max(0, LFNoise1.kr(6 + [4.0.rand2, 4.0.rand2], 0.02, offset)), z)}); z })) and show them Sciss' max like representation: Then ask them to make p = 100 and imagine what the max patch would look like. That's when lights go on and people realise that the SC version is so elegant and expressive because of the abstraction. In essence it works so well because in SC you can tell the program to make you all these UGens, whereas in Max the visual metaphor requires you to 'make them' yourself. Thus Max's appeal (the metaphor of connecting 'real world' objects, which exist, i.e. they are seemingly tangible and persistent) becomes an important limitation. Nevertheless I think for certain types of fast prototyping, Max can be very effective, especially if you need to quickly insert control (sometimes it's nice that the 'code' for a slider is a slider), or introspection (we've tried to make SC better at this with UGen:poll and scope). It is certainly true that Max does not scale well though, and that for a supposedly 'high level' language, it really does allow you to shoot yourself in the foot with surprising ease. I find it quite fascinating that as Max grows it has taken on more aspects of 'real' programming languages (e.g. attributes), and expended a lot of effort working around the limitations of the visual metaphor. The biggest examples of this are patcher scripting, javascript, and java integration, which basically partially turn Max into a bunch of text based languages, albeit none of them as nice as SC IMO. On a closing note, for a few years I taught classes in which students had to learn both Max and SC. Interestingly, on the whole the more 'touchy-feely' intuitive types tended to gravitate towards SC, whereas the hard-core math types seemed to like Max. There is indeed something 'macho' about Max and its community, despite the supposed fact that 'real men use SuperCollider', as I once read somewhere. Ironically I think part of the long-term appeal of Max to power users is its impenetrability and poor scaling; using it allows one to display a certain virtuosity. Two cents, S. On 24 Apr 2009, at 09:38, Uri Sala wrote: > Dear list, > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been > using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at > school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I > am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much > faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard > and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to > program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. > Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a > nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, > under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, > until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually > along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many > cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind > of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher > tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with > nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC. > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, > let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid > dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know > any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and > cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to > program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many > people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with > a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought > out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules. > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that > exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If > not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to > collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town. > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have > my pill now. > > Cheers > Uri > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Eric Lyon
::
Rate this Message:
Programming v.s. patching is not an either/or proposition for Max/MSP. You can patch of course, but you can also code - write your own DSP externals in C, use JavaScript to wire up objects to interfaces (including everybody's favorite 1000 oscillators in a couple lines of code). Managing complexity is challenging in Max, but it's not a piece of cake in SC either. And I can speedily wire up a practical, good-looking, rapidly reconfigurable performance interface in Max that would be a slow, agonizing job in SC thanks to lack of WYSIWYG GUI design. SC has its own comparative advantages but I find Max more directly useful for practical performance design.
Cheers, Eric On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Lorien Dunn <loriendunn@...> wrote: Ha, |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Paul Jones
::
Rate this Message:
In my experience, I started studying music technology at the age of 25, well after I'd written much music and released a fair bit. Using commercial synths and samplers, sequencer. Max was the first programing I ever did, and it gave me a grounding to learn supercollider, if I had been presented with SC first I imagine I would have had a much harder time learning. I only bothered with supercollider in the first instance because my teacher would rant on a daily basis how much better it was. For my final project I used Max/Jitter to create a motion tracking patch and mapped this to SC via OSC. It was this process or using both languages that gave me the informed opinion that SC was both easier and more intuative once one had a grounding, however if you wanted to do motion tracking in SC I think you'd be up against it. Where I am doing my MA, they only teach max, which is a great shame. Even the teacher thinks so, but the sad truth is universities are buisnesses more that a learning institutes now, and Max is more trendy and attracts more students (for the time being). If on an open day you tell them they will be learning code, chances are they will go somewhere else with prety interfaces. Many of my freinds who produce in the traditional way find the site of code compleatly off putting. This is a natural reaction, often musicans are quite tunred off by such an aproach and to say "If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't practiced their scales" is a bit OTT in my opinion. These guys are producing realy good music, surely the end result is what matters? Hmm I could rant more and more but I should do some work. One more thing, without this list, learning SC would have been impossible for me. Thanks all Cheers, Paul From: Dan Stowell <danstowell@...> To: sc-users@... Sent: Friday, 24 April, 2009 11:02:19 Subject: Re: [sc-users] Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork? Hi Pierre - Disagreement is good, please carry on. In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy, and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which investigate these issues. Dan 2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>: > Sorry to disagree here. > > As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going > within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is the base of > it. > > SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and > DSP. > > And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass > at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional > luthier for this. > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a > fantastic, different, complementary tool. > > hugs from the North of England > > pa > > > > Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > > > > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out > instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't > program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't > practiced their scales. > > > > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going > back to music ;) > > Lorien > > Uri Sala wrote: > > > > > Dear list, > > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap > analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the > theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using > Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard > time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that > if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why > the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti > makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, > really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music > student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, > and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice > looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching > themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets > the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would > actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. > > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong > feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to > shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do > something that would take 1 line in SC. > > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let > me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs > dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical) > programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them > whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're > likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming > with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said > that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C > modules. > > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes > what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like > to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points, > print them and post them all over town. > > > > > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my > pill now. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Uri > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sc-users mailing list > > > > > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > > > archive: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > > > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sc-users mailing list > > > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > > archive: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > -- http://www.mcld.co.uk _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
::
Rate this Message:
Hey PA,
On 24 Apr 2009, at 10:39, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote: > Sorry to disagree here. No need to apologise. > > > As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them > going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is > the base of it. > > SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse > pedagogy and DSP. I think you're maybe equating your (rather impressive!) familiarity with Max as opposed to SC with pedagogical accessibility. It may be that it's a little easier to get 11 year olds to connect a patch cord than to assign something to a variable, but I would maintain that if you're talking about getting students (let's be general as I think it's safe to say that the 11 year old case is exceptional) to do something useful the difference is not so great, and I say that based on years of experience teaching both. Max may be arguably easier for steps 1 and 2, but it's curve goes up rather fast, and as you say complex stuff is easier in SC. (Steps 100-200 can be a real pain in Max.) > > And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely > computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I > play bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I > have a professional luthier for this. Your bass analogy doesn't fit, I think, as you're comparing output with design issues. Max does not scale well, but it is still possible to make good music with it. It is still possible to make good music with a poorly designed bass, but it is true that depending on what you're playing, the instrument may limit you or make you work harder. Design still has its advantages, and those issues are worth discussing. (I should say that I don't think that Max was poorly designed in general, but I do think it has suffered increasingly from growing pains as it has moved beyod Miller's original intentions for it.) > > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC > community is probably one of the reason why its growth is still > modest despite SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool. I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC community is anti-MSP in particular. (Although I have a funny feeling you might be referring to me? Did I say something offensive the last time we had a scotch together? ;-) I don't think anyone here is saying anything that prominent Max users haven't also said. To be fair I can't think of anything that comes close to the 'James McCartney is selfish anti-Max free software zealot' discussions that spring up periodically on the Max list. Certainly discussing differences in philosophy and design can be useful for everyone involved, so let's not try to discourage that. > > > hugs from the North of England > Ahhh.... > pa > PS Are you coming in May? I want a real hug... > > > Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > >> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play >> out instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and >> you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the >> student who hasn't practiced their scales. >> >> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before >> going back to music ;) >> Lorien >> Uri Sala wrote: >>> Dear list, >>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap >>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the >>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been >>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at >>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. >>> I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much >>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard >>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to >>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. >>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic >>> music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that >>> is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think >>> that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of >>> subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, >>> eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are >>> so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be >>> better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. >>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my >>> strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a >>> teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen >>> with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC. >>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. >>> Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a >>> valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you >>> know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes >>> and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better >>> to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course >>> many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a >>> soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was >>> not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C >>> modules. >>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that >>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If >>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to >>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over >>> town. >>> >>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will >>> have my pill now. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Uri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sc-users mailing list >>> >>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml >>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ >>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sc-users mailing list >> >> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml >> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ >> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
::
Rate this Message:
On 24 Apr 2009, at 11:15, Eric Lyon wrote: > And I can speedily wire up a practical, good-looking, rapidly > reconfigurable performance interface in Max that would be a slow, > agonizing job in SC thanks to lack of WYSIWYG GUI design. Hey Eric, Are you aware of the drag and drop GUI constructor (under the UI menu)? It helps a fair bit with that, but I agree that Max wins hands down for rapid GUI construction. I think SC (at least in recent years) does provide advantages in the form of something more like a full- featured traditional GUI library, but it's true that many people don't need that. S. _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by loriend
::
Rate this Message:
it's not an either or thing in SC either of course, and point taken
about the programmability of max family these days. But still I personally would choose to hand code a whole load of unnecessary stuff in C++ than use max, data flow simply isn't how I solve programming problems. Also I've seen the damage using fancy IDE's does to CS students- I've had some thinking C++ programming is all dragging and dropping Borland GUI components around and filling in the blanks and not being able to start from a blank slate to save themselves. It's not so important for music students, but the way Max is commonly used being contrary to normal programming practice makes it a bad way to teach students how to make a computer obey their wishes, in the long term at least. hi from melbourne btw, you're one of the GRAME folks I think? Lorien Eric Lyon wrote: > Programming v.s. patching is not an either/or proposition for Max/MSP. > You can patch of course, but you can also code - write your own DSP > externals in C, use JavaScript to wire up objects to interfaces > (including everybody's favorite 1000 oscillators in a couple lines of > code). Managing complexity is challenging in Max, but it's not a piece > of cake in SC either. And I can speedily wire up a practical, > good-looking, rapidly reconfigurable performance interface in Max that > would be a slow, agonizing job in SC thanks to lack of WYSIWYG GUI > design. SC has its own comparative advantages but I find Max more > directly useful for practical performance design. > > Cheers, > Eric > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Lorien Dunn <loriendunn@... > <mailto:loriendunn@...>> wrote: > > Ha, > no problem, I think all the max family are pretty neat for > getting simple things up and running quickly, but complex things > turn into a nightmare in my experience. I think Max MSP is far > better for in class demos than SC because of the quick drag and > drop GUI stuff, but for a serious project I find data flow > "languages" agony. > So I'm all for using Max like things for an introduction to > interactive music, but think proper programming needs to be taught > too, and several of my old study mates who stuck with Max have > wished they'd learned C and C++ after seeing/hearing some of the > things I did with video game audio systems. > I seriously don't understand how anyone can disagree with > programming being like scales for a computer musician, but I was > trying to be inflammatory as requested. > > cheers, > L > > > Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote: > > Sorry to disagree here. > > As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get > them going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug > and play is the base of it. > > SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse > pedagogy and DSP. > > And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by > completely computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is > completely flawed. I play bass at professional level, but > don't ask me to build one. I have a professional luthier for this. > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC > community is probably one of the reason why its growth is > still modest despite SC being a fantastic, different, > complementary tool. > > hugs from the North of England > > pa > > > > Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit : > > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn > to play out instruments well. If the computer is your > chosen instrument and you can't program in a proper > programming language, then you're the student who hasn't > practiced their scales. > > >From a music grad who made into computer science academia > before going back to music ;) > Lorien > Uri Sala wrote: > > Dear list, > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about > the cheap analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I > think that 75% of the theoretical knowledge I have > received in electronic music has been using Max/MSP. > Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at > school have a hard time grasping the concepts of > electronic music. I am totally convinced that if they > used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody > explain to my why the myth that coding is hard and > that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier > to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I > mean, really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the > beginning electronic music student sees a Max patch, > he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, and > thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, > under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of > subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am > sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user > gets the "god there are so many cables and windows > open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind of > feeling. I did, only it took me about a week. > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory > for my strong feelings about SC, and my increasing > unease every time a teacher tries to shove Max down > our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do > something that would take 1 line in SC. > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal > preference. Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. > Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging > is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non > musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes > and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it > would be better to program in that way and you're > likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done > great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a > fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was > not thought out to program with, just to use as > patcher for C modules. > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text > somewhere that exposes what I just said in more > objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like to > know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect > the strongest points, print them and post them all > over town. > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad > reasoning. I will have my pill now. > > Cheers > Uri > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: > http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > sc-users mailing list > > info (subscription, etc.): > http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml > archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ > search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ > > _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by andrea valle-3
::
Rate this Message:
1- The point is user interface (textual/graphical). Of course you can use Csound controlled by Python with a ultrachic Processing interface. 2- there is WYSISYG in SuperCollider as far as you have GUI 3- GUI is not necessary practical I prototyped this a year ago: I've used it a couple of times live. You can patch what you want, reorder, destroy/add synths etc. GUIs are autogenerated and updated. The fact is that you can do it from inside SC. This is a great advantage for me: a unique interface be it for real time electronic, for algorithmic composition to be written on common notation, for GUI stuff etc. But I'm not using it now. I like GUI for visualization of data, but neither for description of the logic, nor for controlling (I prefer to write on a physical keyboard or to move a real knob) Best -a- On 24 Apr 2009, at 12:15, Eric Lyon wrote: Programming v.s. patching is not an either/or proposition for Max/MSP. You can patch of course, but you can also code - write your own DSP externals in C, use JavaScript to wire up objects to interfaces (including everybody's favorite 1000 oscillators in a couple lines of code). Managing complexity is challenging in Max, but it's not a piece of cake in SC either. And I can speedily wire up a practical, good-looking, rapidly reconfigurable performance interface in Max that would be a slow, agonizing job in SC thanks to lack of WYSIWYG GUI design. SC has its own comparative advantages but I find Max more directly useful for practical performance design. -------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - DAMS Università degli Studi di Torino --> andrea.valle@... -------------------------------------------------- " This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." (Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski) |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Pierre Alexandre Tremblay
::
Rate this Message:
Hey Scott
I hope life is good in sunny Birmingham ;-) > I think you're maybe equating your (rather impressive!) familiarity > with Max as opposed to SC with pedagogical accessibility. thanks for the props, but I've check with my students as well, and the SC curve is offputting. I might need to have your rather impressive faith in SC to convey a motivation to go through the first painful steps of the language and discover its immense beauty. > I don't think the SC community is anti-MSP in particular. > (Although I have a funny feeling you might be referring to me? not at all! There is just a kind of max-is-not-real-stuff, gui-are- for-wimps vibe sometimes... > James McCartney is selfish anti-Max free software zealot' discussions I have those even more ;-) I just wish there was a sc~ sometimes... like csound~ chuck~ etc~ ;-) > Then ask them to make p = 100 and imagine what the max patch would > look like. this is a great example. This is coding, an abstract concept of iteration. Computer music is not necessary coding-based. We know very good, original sounding music from computer illiterate, ie Ms Gough. > It may be that it's a little easier to get 11 year olds to connect > a patch cord than to assign something to a variable, but I would > maintain that if you're talking about getting students (let's be > general as I think it's safe to say that the 11 year old case is > exceptional) to do something useful the difference is not so great, > and I say that based on years of experience teaching both. Max may > be arguably easier for steps 1 and 2, but it's curve goes up rather > fast, and as you say complex stuff is easier in SC. (Steps 100-200 > can be a real pain in Max.) Indeed, we agree. Let's add that the 'intuitive' aspect of objects is very well anchored into Piaget-type psycho theories AFAIR, and some garage coding by, let's be honest, mathematically-illiterate students sometimes yield interesting results that they will use in their tunes... Anyway, I love SC and Max and C, I hate java and javascript. I look forward to the enhanced gui tutorials in SC3.3 as this is a real pain now. pa > PS Are you coming in May? I want a real hug... I'm in the studio on the last weekend, I might come for the Friday. Is the programme out? If yes please plug it here! _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by thelych
::
Rate this Message:
Le 24 avr. 09 à 12:30, Scott Wilson a écrit :
personally i do like Max/Msp, i think it has some cool stuff in and with Max5 i find many things are better (including workflow). I also like the way you can now use Java to code max and msp externals (even if i am a C/C++ guy in the heart, it is very convenient too). I still use more sc but i do not feel like *against* Max/Msp. It always depend what you are and what you target. Since those apps are used by musicians, sound engineers, scientist, difficult to match all expectations... and i agree musicians does not really need to spend lots of time knowing the internal guts of a system to make their music. so see, even some supercollider ppl are far from being anti-MSP... (and for musicians that have still probs with Max and SuperCollider i think the "Max for Live" may be a very interesting (introducing) option for those new paradigms) flame shield on Scott :) charles |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
::
Rate this Message:
On 24 Apr 2009, at 11:50, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
I guess I'm saying that I suspect you're a lot better at teaching Max than SC; probably the reverse is a bit true for me as well.
Unfortunately that seems to be incomplete. I'll get Kevin to fix it so it should be right in a day or so. My piece is on the second Saturday concert. Salut, S.
|
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
::
Rate this Message:
On 24 Apr 2009, at 11:55, thelych@... wrote: > > so see, even some supercollider ppl are far from being anti-MSP... > > (and for musicians that have still probs with Max and SuperCollider > i think the "Max for Live" may be a very interesting (introducing) > option for those new paradigms) > > flame shield on Scott :) I think it's a wonderful infiltration! S. _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by blackrain-2
::
Rate this Message:
hey!
jamming in On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 5:55 AM, <thelych@...> wrote: > > Le 24 avr. 09 à 12:30, Scott Wilson a écrit : > > > No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is > probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a > fantastic, different, complementary tool. > > I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC > community is anti-MSP in particular. > > personally i do like Max/Msp, i think it has some cool stuff in and with > Max5 i find many things are better (including workflow). I also like the way > you can now use Java to code max and msp externals (even if i am a C/C++ guy > in the heart, it is very convenient too). > I still use more sc but i do not feel like *against* Max/Msp. > It always depend what you are and what you target. Since those apps are used > by musicians, sound engineers, scientist, difficult to match all > expectations... and i agree musicians does not really need to spend lots of > time knowing the internal guts of a system to make their music. > so see, even some supercollider ppl are far from being anti-MSP... > (and for musicians that have still probs with Max and SuperCollider i think > the "Max for Live" may be a very interesting (introducing) option for those > new paradigms) certainly. however, sorry to bring this up. max timing schedulers suck big time. ever tried to schedule sample accurate events under max/msp (pluggo)? good luck with that. wonder why the facto standard industry relays on 3 lines and a weak approximation of a beat? I guess now you know =) cheers, x _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
|
|
Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by thelych
::
Rate this Message:
Le 24 avr. 09 à 13:22, blackrain a écrit : > hey! > jamming in > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 5:55 AM, <thelych@...> wrote: >> >> Le 24 avr. 09 à 12:30, Scott Wilson a écrit : >> >> >> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC >> community is >> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite >> SC being a >> fantastic, different, complementary tool. >> >> I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC >> community is anti-MSP in particular. >> >> personally i do like Max/Msp, i think it has some cool stuff in and >> with >> Max5 i find many things are better (including workflow). I also >> like the way >> you can now use Java to code max and msp externals (even if i am a >> C/C++ guy >> in the heart, it is very convenient too). >> I still use more sc but i do not feel like *against* Max/Msp. >> It always depend what you are and what you target. Since those apps >> are used >> by musicians, sound engineers, scientist, difficult to match all >> expectations... and i agree musicians does not really need to spend >> lots of >> time knowing the internal guts of a system to make their music. >> so see, even some supercollider ppl are far from being anti-MSP... >> (and for musicians that have still probs with Max and SuperCollider >> i think >> the "Max for Live" may be a very interesting (introducing) option >> for those >> new paradigms) > > certainly. > however, sorry to bring this up. > max timing schedulers suck big time. > ever tried to schedule sample accurate events under max/msp (pluggo)? > good luck with that. > wonder why the facto standard industry relays on 3 lines and a weak > approximation of a beat? > I guess now you know =) > > cheers, > > x hahaha, actually this discussion was missing your point :) i knew when i was writing this down that you would probably send the flame on this point ;-) cheers, charles _______________________________________________ sc-users mailing list info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/ search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/ |
pastedGraphic1.jpg (29K) | < Prev | 1 - 2 | Next > |
| Free embeddable forum powered by Nabble | Forum Help |
