Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
|
View:
New views
6 Messages
—
Rating Filter:
Alert me
|
 |
Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by Ms2ger
::
Rate this Message:
|
|
|
RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by Richard Ishida
::
Rate this Message:
|
|
|
RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by CE Whitehead
::
Rate this Message:
Some parts of this message have been removed.
Learn more about Nabble's security policy.
I've so far got a few comments on the English grammar and punctuation in the introductory part and section 1 -- if you are taking those at this point (I've read through section 3 only however). "Status of this Document" par 2, last sentence {COMMENT: INSERT "in"} ". . . fragments of text these scripts" > ". . . fragments of text in these scripts" * * * "Introduction" 1.1 par 1, first 'sentence' ". . . localized to a language . . . " {COMMENT: ??I guess that's o.k. (I want to say "localized in a language" but o.k. I think your terminology is right; I don't use the 'jargon' yet.)} * * * 1.2.1 par 1, third sentence {COMMENT: change "they" to "the" and delete either "see" or "read"} " . . . they way you see read . . . " > " . . . the way you see [or "read"--but not both] . . . " * * * 1.2.3 last paragraph {COMMENT: I'd put commas around the name of the link} > ". . . follow the link, 'Check for browser-specific notes,' after each best practice." * * * 1.4 "inline element," 2nd sentence {COMMENT: change first "block" to "inline"} "The opposite of a block element . . . " > "The opposite of an inline element . . . " * * * One comment on the content 2.2 Can you mention here that the relationship is between the script and directionalit?? It's sort of understood but . . . Thanks, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@... > From: ishida@... > To: ms2ger@... > CC: www-international@... > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:56 +0100 > Subject: RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts > > Thanks for this useful feedback. Notes below... > > ============ > Richard Ishida > Internationalization Lead > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > http://rishida.net/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: www-international-request@... [mailto:www-international- > > request@...] On Behalf Of Ms2ger > > Sent: 15 July 2009 18:52 > > To: www-international@... > > Subject: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts > > > > Dear > > > > I have a few comments on the /Best Practices for Authoring HTML: > > Handling Right-to-left Scripts/ Working Draft of 14 July 2009. [1] > > > > BP 1, Examples 6 and 7: I find it unfortunate that the presentational id > > |rightjustified| and class |clearleft| are suggested as "best practice". > > It would be better to suggest picking ids and classes based on the > > meaning of the markup, rather than the (at this time) preferred > > presentation. (See [2] for example.) > > I totally agree that semantic names should be chosen for class names whenever possible. I think this will mean creating more complicated examples, but I will do so. You're right that the over-simplistic examples currently used are not good. > > > > > BP 3, Example 8: > > > > > <html dir="rtl" lang="ar" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > > > > As this looks like an XHTML document, I believe the attribute > > |xml:lang=""| would be more appropriate. > > Ah, thanks for drawing my attention to that. I converted the visible example text to HTML from the original XHTML before publishing, and I forgot to remove the xmlns in this example. I'll remove it. > > > > > BP 6, Example 9: > > > > > <blockquote dir="ltr" lang="en" cite="Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)">But, > > soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the > > sun.</blockquote> > > > > This snippet is incorrect HTML for two reasons: it uses |cite=""| > > incorrectly—the value should be a URI, and the contents of a > > /block/quote must be blocks. A more correct version would be > > > > > <blockquote dir="ltr" lang="en"><p>But, soft! What light through yonder > > window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.</p></blockquote> > > > > You're right. I'll change it. > > > > > Hoping these comments will help to improve the draft > > Very useful. Thanks! > > RI > > > > Ms2ger > > > > [1] <http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-i18n-html-tech-bidi-20090714/> > > [2] <http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/goodclassnames> > > > |
|
|
RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by Richard Ishida
::
Rate this Message:
Some parts of this message have been removed.
Learn more about Nabble's security policy.
Thanks for these comments. New version viewable at http://www.w3.org/International/docs/bp-html-bidi/
============
From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@...]
Hi. RI: Fixed
RI: Done
RI: Fixed
RI: Done
|
|
|
RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by CE Whitehead
::
Rate this Message:
Some parts of this message have been removed.
Learn more about Nabble's security policy.
My remaining comments on http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-bidi/ are on content. All of these comments are on pretty minor issues though. CONTENT: Section 4 Best Practice 1 (Just a note you can ignore: for css-illiterate browsers the deprecated html p align= is still the way to make things display correctly. And so I do prefer to use both css and the deprecated html together personally. But this is a personal preference, and I do write some terribly 'robust' code [I mean robust for the browsers] maybe to the extent that I know what I am doing; I doubt that it is recommended to write code as I often do.) * * * Section 4 Best Practice 2 " By default the dir attribute setting should produce the correct alignment" However, see the attached html page! (& sorry for this cumbersome phonetic transcription of Arabic [which may have an error or two] and this leaden morpheme-by-morpheme translation [in which I hope there are no errors]; I just used code from a page I had available; I did not feel like typing in more unicode character numbers at this time; regarding the alignment of the first six verses/half-verses, the following codes produce the following effects: p align="right" class="ArabicOriginal" Displays o.k. with text rtl p align="left" class="ArabicOriginal" aligns to the left as expected; text runs rtl as it should p class="ArabicOriginal" dir="rtl" still aligns to the left p align="right" aligns to the right; margin is off because I specify a margin with the class attribute! p align="right" class="ArabicOriginal" dir="rtl"aligns properly to the right p class="ArabicOriginal" dir="rtl" even coming in the middle of right-aligned paragraphs, it aligns to the left--and this with the directionality attribute set [which is wholly unneeded here since the whole block is in Arabic script!]) I'm sure I've misunderstood here; please let me know how I've misunderstood Best Practice 2. Also I've found that users can apparently sometimes control default text alignment--resetting it to center, for an example. Paragraphs on an html page may look odd centered in my opinion at least--and thus I always specify the text-alignment--but again this is more about my personal preferences than about what your best practices should be. * * * 5 Best Practice 3 Mati noted: M.A.] > 31) In the note for "Setting up a right-to-left page", IE v6-8, we find: " > In Internet Explorer, applying a right-to-left direction in the html or > body tag will affect the user interface, too. If the page has a scroll > bar, it will appear on the left side of the window. JavaScript alert boxes > will be mirror imaged." > As far as I remember, this is true for dir applied to the HTML tag, not > for the BODY tag, at least up to IE v7. Please check. > If I am right, then "they may prefer to not declare the document > directionality on the html or body tag" => "they may prefer to not declare > the document directionality on the html tag." > If I am correct, there is no need for a div element immediately inside the > BODY tag, it is enough to specify dir on the BODY tag. > I have no experience with IE v8. If the results are different for IE v8, > then I suggest to add that the proposed solution (div within Body) is more > than needed for IE versions until v7 but provides a unified solution for > all IE versions including v8. I myself feel that setting directionality for the body element might be useful in cases where the title of the document is in English but the page content is in Arabic (such as an Arabic poem in the Arabic language for English speakers???). * * * --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@... From: cewcathar@... To: ishida@...; www-international@... Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:28:59 -0400 Subject: RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts Hi. I've so far got a few comments on the English grammar and punctuation in the introductory part and section 1 -- if you are taking those at this point (I've read through section 3 only however). "Status of this Document" par 2, last sentence {COMMENT: INSERT "in"} ". . . fragments of text these scripts" > ". . . fragments of text in these scripts" * * * "Introduction" 1.1 par 1, first 'sentence' ". . . localized to a language . . . " {COMMENT: ??I guess that's o.k. (I want to say "localized in a language" but o.k. I think your terminology is right; I don't use the 'jargon' yet.)} * * * 1.2.1 par 1, third sentence {COMMENT: change "they" to "the" and delete either "see" or "read"} " . . . they way you see read . . . " > " . . . the way you see [or "read"--but not both] . . . " * * * 1.2.3 last paragraph {COMMENT: I'd put commas around the name of the link} > ". . . follow the link, 'Check for browser-specific notes,' after each best practice." * * * 1.4 "inline element," 2nd sentence {COMMENT: change first "block" to "inline"} "The opposite of a block element . . . " > "The opposite of an inline element . . . " * * * One comment on the content 2.2 Can you mention here that the relationship is between the script and directionalit?? It's sort of understood but . . . Thanks, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@... > From: ishida@... > To: ms2ger@... > CC: www-international@... > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:56 +0100 > Subject: RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts > > Thanks for this useful feedback. Notes below... > > ============ > Richard Ishida > Internationalization Lead > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > http://rishida.net/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: www-international-request@... [mailto:www-international- > > request@...] On Behalf Of Ms2ger > > Sent: 15 July 2009 18:52 > > To: www-international@... > > Subject: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts > > > > Dear > > > > I have a few comments on the /Best Practices for Authoring HTML: > > Handling Right-to-left Scripts/ Working Draft of 14 July 2009. [1] > > > > BP 1, Examples 6 and 7: I find it unfortunate that the presentational id > > |rightjustified| and class |clearleft| are suggested as "best practice". > > It would be better to suggest picking ids and classes based on the > > meaning of the markup, rather than the (at this time) preferred > > presentation. (See [2] for example.) > > I totally agree that semantic names should be chosen for class names whenever possible. I think this will mean creating more complicated examples, but I will do so. You're right that the over-simplistic examples currently used are not good. > > > > > BP 3, Example 8: > > > > > <html dir="rtl" lang="ar" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > > > > As this looks like an XHTML document, I believe the attribute > > |xml:lang=""| would be more appropriate. > > Ah, thanks for drawing my attention to that. I converted the visible example text to HTML from the original XHTML before publishing, and I forgot to remove the xmlns in this example. I'll remove it. > > > > > BP 6, Example 9: > > > > > <blockquote dir="ltr" lang="en" cite="Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)">But, > > soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the > > sun.</blockquote> > > > > This snippet is incorrect HTML for two reasons: it uses |cite=""| > > incorrectly—the value should be a URI, and the contents of a > > /block/quote must be blocks. A more correct version would be > > > > > <blockquote dir="ltr" lang="en"><p>But, soft! What light through yonder > > window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.</p></blockquote> > > > > You're right. I'll change it. > > > > > Hoping these comments will help to improve the draft > > Very useful. Thanks! > > RI > > > > Ms2ger > > > > [1] <http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-i18n-html-tech-bidi-20090714/> > > [2] <http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/goodclassnames> > > > From 'al-Khansaa, Inniy ariqtu fa-bittu-l-layla sahiritan(
Originally translated May-June, 1981 by C. E. W.; revised slightly May, 1985; I just added one more tweak or two, 2008 'al-Khansaa was from Arabia, during the time of Mohammed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khansa]; she wrote this poem upon the death of a half-brother which occurred before her conversion to Islam; women poets' wrote poems of grief apparently which is what it is.¹ The meter and rhyme scheme and part of the theme in this poem is echoed in Bertran de Born's Planh or 'lament' for the 'young king'². [Sorry for any roughness in the phonetic transcription; I'm obviously limited in my knowledge of Arabic & do need to get some help with the voweling--since vowels are not normally written in Arabic texts all my vowels are inferred from the vocabulary in the Hans Wehr Arabic dictionary (ed. Cowan) and the grammar in Abboud et. al.'s Elementary Modern Standard Arabic, vols. 1 & 2.] )
'in-nii 'ariq-tu fa-bit-tu l-layla saahirit-an/ fa-[']adhhab fa-laa yu-ba'' ''id{! ? a ?}-na-ka{! ?? did God in these days take a feminine plural form; alternately this is yu-ba''id{!? a ?}-n-a-ka form IV ? but what about gender?} 'allaah-u min rajul-i-n/
fa-sawfa [']abkii-ka maa naah.-at mut.awwaqat-u-n/ Morphemes
'Indeed'-'I' 'sleepless(perfective)'-'I' 'thus'-'spend['the night'](perfective?)'-'I' 'the'-'night' 'vigil keep'-'ing'/
'then'-'go'(imperative) 'then'-'not'(present) 'he'(?)-'keep far'(or 'banish')-[? (is this just a 'nuun' indicating a special tense, or does this 'nuun' indicate a plural feminine verb?)]-[jussive or subjunctive?]'-'you' 'God'-[nominative] 'being one of the type' 'man'-[genitive]-[indefinite]/
'then'-'I go' 'wail for'(or 'lament')-'you(accusative)' 'just as' 'cried(perfective)-'it'(or 'she') 'ringdove'/ Original Arabic
ٳني أرقت فبت ٱلليل ساهرة*
أرعى آلنجوم و لم كلفت رعيتها
و قد سمعت و لم أبجح به خبرا
يقول صخر مقيم ثم في جدث
فاذهب فلا يبعدنك آلله من رجل
قد كنت تحمل قلبا غير مهتضم
مثل آلسنان تضىء الليل صورته
فسوف آبكيك ما ناحت مطوقه
و لن أصالح قوما كنت حرهم
NOTESGENERAL:
(In my phonetic transcriptions of the Arabic, a '.' after a letter indicates that this sound is 'pharyngealized'--that is pronounced down in the pharynx) in Arabic; A 'pharyngeal' /h/ is indicated as /h./. Also Arabic has voiced pharyngeal and voiced velar fricatives--which I have no way to distinguish here--I'm using (1), /''/ to indicate the pharyngeal (or to me 'softer') fricative [ع], and (2), /gh/ to indicate the velar fricative [غ]; (3), the /'/ is used--for now--for glottal stops [ء & others]. (4), I use doubled (two) vowels to indicate long vowels although in the title I indicate long /i/ with /iy/--a vowel plus a glide. (5), /th/ indicates a voiceless interdental fricative [ث]; (6), /dh/ indicates a voiced interdental fricative [ذ]; (7), /sh/ indicates a voiceless palatal fricative [ش]; (8), /j/ indicates a voiced palatal fricative/affricate [in Levantine Arabic dialects it's a fricative; elsewhere it is an affricate actually] [ج]; (9), /q/ indicates the voiceless [? to my ear at least it's voiceless] uvular stop [a pharyngealized or uvularized k?; ق]. My phonetic transcription may have errors as my text from Arberry does not indicate vowels, or have any diacrtic marks. I am now getting some help with my transcription at www.wordreference.com, which I desperately need--as this is my third attempt to get the vowels and diacritic marks right; I first attempted to get this right in May of 1982 after a year of Arabic, when I started working on this translation; in 1985 as I was preparing to finish my M.A. I tried again & thought I finally had it all right; now one more try! The original poem appeared in A. J. Arberry, 1965, Arabic Poetry: A Primer for Students [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press]. For more on Arabic phonology, please see, Arabic Online (http://arabic.tripod.com/Arab10.htm)) THE ARABIC ORIGINAL * As noted this is from A. J. Arberry, 1965, Arabic Poetry: A Primer for Students [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press]. The display of the unicode characters is turning out o.k. so far; I am surprised; there do seem to be slightly different 'first' 'middle' and 'last' displays for each connected letter, so, it looks more like the typed copy I have than I really expected. (NOTE: the manuscript here deviates in one way from Arberry's because I've made a change; I've opted [someone please correct me if I am wrong] to indicate when an 'aleph' plus glottal stop has been elided with a previous vowel and become lengthened; to do so I use the unicode character for the long 'aleph' [U 0622]. If this is not correct, please correct me. It's to be noted that the Arabic character 'aleph' [ا] (without a seated hamza on/under it, or a long vowel mark on it) may be pronounced either as a vowel (as in the suffixes haa' 'her,' naa, 'our') or as an (which is the accusative indefinite ending after a noun, adjective, or participle--other case endings are not written in Arabic; case endings are not normally pronounced in spoken dialects but they are important in establishing the meter of classical odes. This poem is much more beautiful and moving than the rather leaden morpheme-by-morpheme translation suggests; but I did not see the point of including a translation for the purposes of showing how some browsers manage to align rtl text to the right??) |
|
|
RE: Comments on Best Practices for Authoring HTML: RTL scripts
by Richard Ishida
::
Rate this Message:
|
| Free embeddable forum powered by Nabble | Forum Help |
