Commerce blues or Why I am switching to tt_products:

[zylonne]

How I wish I had read a post like this before wasting literally weeks of my
time on typo3 commerce.  I bet that there are a lot of people out there like
me, who see the commerce extension and think, hmm, maybe worth a try.  Let
this posting be a warning to you! Here we go:

1. The Installation:
You can bring down your whole server just by clicking on "install this
extension". No dependency checks are made, and there are a LOT of
dependencies. Install all those extensions in the wrong order, and you will
have a blank screen, I mean, no Front End, NO BACKEND, NO TYPO3! Do not ever
install commerce  on a production server for the first time unless you think
it is fun desperately googling for help during a few panic stricken minutes
while your whole site is down.

2. Select Attributes:
For some reason the developers of commerce believe that the ability to
select attributes for your products is some kind of advanced functionality.
For example, you sell t-shirts. They come in 3 sizes and 5 colors.  The
commerce solution is to list ebay style 15 articles!  Oh but there is a way
to do it with drop down selects, only the code is broken, broken, broken and
has been for years. I finally got it working after spending many intimate
hours with the product php code. The problem?
Even when it works there is a fundamental structural flaw in the select
attribute code. Instead of using the radio/select form data itself,
javascript is used to set some hidden variable  that the basket page
expects.

BIG BUG: user selects color "yellow", javascript  reloads form. But  client
hits "Add to basket" immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds for the form
to reload.  The basket still shows the original selection, because there was
not enough time for the hidden form variables to get set.  I consider this a
serious bug since this is the single most important functionality of any
shop software "Add to basket".  No user will EVER understand that the reason
their attribute selection is not carried into the basket is because they hit
the button too fast.

3. No documentation for payment gateways:
I have looked everywhere, written everyone I could find to write, posted to
this list. There is simply no documentation anywhere on how to actually get
a payment gateway working. Sure there is the paymentlib, and the paymentlib
for commerce. I installed them. But when I configure everything that seems
reasonable to configure and hit that payment method all I get is this on
checkout "_ERROR". Maybe it works, but how can I know how without any docu?

4. Buggy Addresses:
Sometimes when I proceed to checkout I am asked to add an address, sometimes
not and the checkout skips right through to the end. I have no idea why.
Looking through the list there seems to be a long history of problems with
billing/delivery address. This afternoon was for me the final straw. First I
was offered the form, then I wasn't.  That's it. On to tt_products.

5. Clientitus:
This is by far the biggest problem with commerce. What is it? Clientitus is
a sickness that affects some, but not all, open source software projects.
90% of the code does what it is supposed to. 10% does not (see the
http://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-commerce/issues commerce bug list.
)  That 10% never gets fixed because everyone actually running commerce in
production is using some local branch.
Look, I understand as much as anyone that there is a need to make a living.
And I know how complicated it is to merge local branches to the main trunk.
But if those bugs never, ever get fixed in the main trunk of the project
(to say nothing about the TER version, 9.8, that is so fully non-functional
that the first thing everyone on this lists tells you to do is to get the
svn version) then a project has clientitus.
Cynics might say that the core developers intentionally foster clientitus
but I don't even believe that is true. I think they just don't have time to
deal with the main trunk and its many, many problems.

So, you like that fancy backend interface and still want to give it a try?
Be prepared for one of these 3 options:

1. Hire a commerce core programmer for 100EU/hour to get your commerce
working. Pay them again to merge the code each time a new version comes out.
2. Fix everything locally yourself. Then you never, ever upgrade to some
future version of commerce that has fewer or different bugs because your
code is all particular to your project.
3. Become a Commerce Saint. Join the core team with NO CLIENT paying you.
Devote your life to fixing all of the commerce bugs just to say you did.  

Signing off this list now, thanks to everyone who helped me here and
offlist. Good luck.

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Commerce-blues-or-Why-I-am-switching-to-tt_products%3A-tp25305023p25305023.html
Sent from the TYPO3 - Projects - Commerce mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-project-commerce mailing list
TYPO3-project-commerce@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-project-commerce

[Ralf Merz-2]

Hi zylonne,

how often do you plan to "retweet" this message?
I think your post did not get an answer because you are saying that
you´ll going to be offlist now.

So replying to someone who isn´t there anymore doesn´t make much sense.

I feel sorry for your anger about the commerce Extension. There are
still years old bugs, but the base core of commerce gives you a really
good shop framework that is very flexible, in my opinion. Of course,
this flexibility makes this extension also to be complex in some ways.

Demanding a 100% working code of a developer fitting all needs is not
the right way in my view, but trying to help and give thanks would help
everyone much more.

Well, if you think commerce is not the right thing for you, feel free
to try other things.
But, I also want to thank you for your post. There is much truth in it.
You wouldn´t have written it, if you haven´t had a reason for it.
But to tell people not to install it is a bit hard. I´ve installed
commerce on a production server a few weeks ago without any problems.
Well, I have to say that I know commerce since 3 years now, but such a
long experience is not needed with commerce to install it.

There will be a book about commerce, I say "soon", as I don´t know the
exact time. Maybe this will help you.

Have fun
Regards

Ralf Merz

On 2009-09-08 09:25:16 +0200, zylonne <zylonne@...> said:

>
> How I wish I had read a post like this before wasting literally weeks of my
> time on typo3 commerce.  I bet that there are a lot of people out there like
> me, who see the commerce extension and think, hmm, maybe worth a try.  Let
> this posting be a warning to you! Here we go:
>
> 1. The Installation:
> You can bring down your whole server just by clicking on "install this
> extension". No dependency checks are made, and there are a LOT of
> dependencies. Install all those extensions in the wrong order, and you will
> have a blank screen, I mean, no Front End, NO BACKEND, NO TYPO3! Do not ever
> install commerce  on a production server for the first time unless you think
> it is fun desperately googling for help during a few panic stricken minutes
> while your whole site is down.
>
> 2. Select Attributes:
> For some reason the developers of commerce believe that the ability to
> select attributes for your products is some kind of advanced functionality.
> For example, you sell t-shirts. They come in 3 sizes and 5 colors.  The
> commerce solution is to list ebay style 15 articles!  Oh but there is a way
> to do it with drop down selects, only the code is broken, broken, broken and
> has been for years. I finally got it working after spending many intimate
> hours with the product php code. The problem?
> Even when it works there is a fundamental structural flaw in the select
> attribute code. Instead of using the radio/select form data itself,
> javascript is used to set some hidden variable  that the basket page
> expects.
>
> BIG BUG: user selects color "yellow", javascript  reloads form. But  client
> hits "Add to basket" immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds for the form
> to reload.  The basket still shows the original selection, because there was
> not enough time for the hidden form variables to get set.  I consider this a
> serious bug since this is the single most important functionality of any
> shop software "Add to basket".  No user will EVER understand that the reason
> their attribute selection is not carried into the basket is because they hit
> the button too fast.
>
> 3. No documentation for payment gateways:
> I have looked everywhere, written everyone I could find to write, posted to
> this list. There is simply no documentation anywhere on how to actually get
> a payment gateway working. Sure there is the paymentlib, and the paymentlib
> for commerce. I installed them. But when I configure everything that seems
> reasonable to configure and hit that payment method all I get is this on
> checkout "_ERROR". Maybe it works, but how can I know how without any docu?
>
> 4. Buggy Addresses:
> Sometimes when I proceed to checkout I am asked to add an address, sometimes
> not and the checkout skips right through to the end. I have no idea why.
> Looking through the list there seems to be a long history of problems with
> billing/delivery address. This afternoon was for me the final straw. First I
> was offered the form, then I wasn't.  That's it. On to tt_products.
>
> 5. Clientitus:
> This is by far the biggest problem with commerce. What is it? Clientitus is
> a sickness that affects some, but not all, open source software projects.
> 90% of the code does what it is supposed to. 10% does not (see the
> http://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-commerce/issues commerce bug list.
> )  That 10% never gets fixed because everyone actually running commerce in
> production is using some local branch.
> Look, I understand as much as anyone that there is a need to make a living.
> And I know how complicated it is to merge local branches to the main trunk.
> But if those bugs never, ever get fixed in the main trunk of the project
> (to say nothing about the TER version, 9.8, that is so fully non-functional
> that the first thing everyone on this lists tells you to do is to get the
> svn version) then a project has clientitus.
> Cynics might say that the core developers intentionally foster clientitus
> but I don't even believe that is true. I think they just don't have time to
> deal with the main trunk and its many, many problems.
>
> So, you like that fancy backend interface and still want to give it a try?
> Be prepared for one of these 3 options:
>
> 1. Hire a commerce core programmer for 100EU/hour to get your commerce
> working. Pay them again to merge the code each time a new version comes out.
> 2. Fix everything locally yourself. Then you never, ever upgrade to some
> future version of commerce that has fewer or different bugs because your
> code is all particular to your project.
> 3. Become a Commerce Saint. Join the core team with NO CLIENT paying you.
> Devote your life to fixing all of the commerce bugs just to say you did.
>
> Signing off this list now, thanks to everyone who helped me here and
> offlist. Good luck.

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-project-commerce mailing list
TYPO3-project-commerce@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-project-commerce

[Bob Wild]

There will be a book? Are you going to be the author, Ralf? Will it also
be published at OpenSourcepress like tt_products?

Looking forward to this!

As for zyklonne's post: I do feel with you! Really! commerce has serious
troubles and it is questionable why bugs that already have solutions are
STILL NOT in the actual SVN (like attribute selectors). And it is very
annoying that the menu - even though from many people mentioned here -
still has severe troubles with recognizing active states etc.

Very troublesome, too, is the template setup, which for some reason
doesn't collaborate with TS as one is used from other extensions...

On the other hand: the docu - even though not mentioning everything - is
very good! Really! It points out very nicely how to install what, how to
use it (with good hands-on examples) and gives very good hints as to
what has to be paid attention to. Just take some time and read it.

Ingo just told me in a recent mail that "soon" there will be some
maintenance works done. He considers the status quo as pretty close to
final - so let's see what comes up next!

Zyklonne - take some time off from commerce, look into tt_products or
trade or webformat! (I dare to say that you will soon realize that none
of those systems work as much "out of the box" and "under one roof" as
commerce does.) But come back to this list and keep sharing your
experience with us! Even though your are desperate about the ext your
experience is quite valuable to the community!

Regards,
Robert

> Hi zylonne,
>
> how often do you plan to "retweet" this message?
> I think your post did not get an answer because you are saying that
> you´ll going to be offlist now.
>
> So replying to someone who isn´t there anymore doesn´t make much sense.
>
> I feel sorry for your anger about the commerce Extension. There are
> still years old bugs, but the base core of commerce gives you a really
> good shop framework that is very flexible, in my opinion. Of course,
> this flexibility makes this extension also to be complex in some ways.
>
> Demanding a 100% working code of a developer fitting all needs is not
> the right way in my view, but trying to help and give thanks would help
> everyone much more.
>
> Well, if you think commerce is not the right thing for you, feel free to
> try other things.
> But, I also want to thank you for your post. There is much truth in it.
> You wouldn´t have written it, if you haven´t had a reason for it.
> But to tell people not to install it is a bit hard. I´ve installed
> commerce on a production server a few weeks ago without any problems.
> Well, I have to say that I know commerce since 3 years now, but such a
> long experience is not needed with commerce to install it.
>
> There will be a book about commerce, I say "soon", as I don´t know the
> exact time. Maybe this will help you.
>
> Have fun
> Regards
>
> Ralf Merz
>
> On 2009-09-08 09:25:16 +0200, zylonne <zylonne@...> said:
>
>>
>> How I wish I had read a post like this before wasting literally weeks
>> of my
>> time on typo3 commerce.  I bet that there are a lot of people out
>> there like
>> me, who see the commerce extension and think, hmm, maybe worth a try.  
>> Let
>> this posting be a warning to you! Here we go:
>>
>> 1. The Installation:
>> You can bring down your whole server just by clicking on "install this
>> extension". No dependency checks are made, and there are a LOT of
>> dependencies. Install all those extensions in the wrong order, and you
>> will
>> have a blank screen, I mean, no Front End, NO BACKEND, NO TYPO3! Do
>> not ever
>> install commerce  on a production server for the first time unless you
>> think
>> it is fun desperately googling for help during a few panic stricken
>> minutes
>> while your whole site is down.
>>
>> 2. Select Attributes:
>> For some reason the developers of commerce believe that the ability to
>> select attributes for your products is some kind of advanced
>> functionality.
>> For example, you sell t-shirts. They come in 3 sizes and 5 colors.  The
>> commerce solution is to list ebay style 15 articles!  Oh but there is
>> a way
>> to do it with drop down selects, only the code is broken, broken,
>> broken and
>> has been for years. I finally got it working after spending many intimate
>> hours with the product php code. The problem?
>> Even when it works there is a fundamental structural flaw in the select
>> attribute code. Instead of using the radio/select form data itself,
>> javascript is used to set some hidden variable  that the basket page
>> expects.
>>
>> BIG BUG: user selects color "yellow", javascript  reloads form. But  
>> client
>> hits "Add to basket" immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds for
>> the form
>> to reload.  The basket still shows the original selection, because
>> there was
>> not enough time for the hidden form variables to get set.  I consider
>> this a
>> serious bug since this is the single most important functionality of any
>> shop software "Add to basket".  No user will EVER understand that the
>> reason
>> their attribute selection is not carried into the basket is because
>> they hit
>> the button too fast.
>>
>> 3. No documentation for payment gateways:
>> I have looked everywhere, written everyone I could find to write,
>> posted to
>> this list. There is simply no documentation anywhere on how to
>> actually get
>> a payment gateway working. Sure there is the paymentlib, and the
>> paymentlib
>> for commerce. I installed them. But when I configure everything that
>> seems
>> reasonable to configure and hit that payment method all I get is this on
>> checkout "_ERROR". Maybe it works, but how can I know how without any
>> docu?
>>
>> 4. Buggy Addresses:
>> Sometimes when I proceed to checkout I am asked to add an address,
>> sometimes
>> not and the checkout skips right through to the end. I have no idea why.
>> Looking through the list there seems to be a long history of problems
>> with
>> billing/delivery address. This afternoon was for me the final straw.
>> First I
>> was offered the form, then I wasn't.  That's it. On to tt_products.
>>
>> 5. Clientitus:
>> This is by far the biggest problem with commerce. What is it?
>> Clientitus is
>> a sickness that affects some, but not all, open source software projects.
>> 90% of the code does what it is supposed to. 10% does not (see the
>> http://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-commerce/issues commerce bug
>> list.
>> )  That 10% never gets fixed because everyone actually running
>> commerce in
>> production is using some local branch.
>> Look, I understand as much as anyone that there is a need to make a
>> living.
>> And I know how complicated it is to merge local branches to the main
>> trunk.
>> But if those bugs never, ever get fixed in the main trunk of the project
>> (to say nothing about the TER version, 9.8, that is so fully
>> non-functional
>> that the first thing everyone on this lists tells you to do is to get the
>> svn version) then a project has clientitus.
>> Cynics might say that the core developers intentionally foster clientitus
>> but I don't even believe that is true. I think they just don't have
>> time to
>> deal with the main trunk and its many, many problems.
>>
>> So, you like that fancy backend interface and still want to give it a
>> try?
>> Be prepared for one of these 3 options:
>>
>> 1. Hire a commerce core programmer for 100EU/hour to get your commerce
>> working. Pay them again to merge the code each time a new version
>> comes out.
>> 2. Fix everything locally yourself. Then you never, ever upgrade to some
>> future version of commerce that has fewer or different bugs because your
>> code is all particular to your project.
>> 3. Become a Commerce Saint. Join the core team with NO CLIENT paying you.
>> Devote your life to fixing all of the commerce bugs just to say you did.
>>
>> Signing off this list now, thanks to everyone who helped me here and
>> offlist. Good luck.
>
>

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-project-commerce mailing list
TYPO3-project-commerce@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-project-commerce

[Ralf Merz-2]

Hi Robert,

thanks for your post. Sounds nice! ;) You gave a warm helping hand to zylonne.
About the book: no, I´m not going to be the author. I also look forward
to this.
At the weekend I´ll be on T3CON09 and will talk to the author. I´m
curious what the conference will bring in cases of commerce.

Regards
Robert

On 2009-09-08 14:59:12 +0200, Bob Wild <rowild@...> said:

> There will be a book? Are you going to be the author, Ralf? Will it
> also be published at OpenSourcepress like tt_products?
>
> Looking forward to this!
>
> As for zyklonne's post: I do feel with you! Really! commerce has
> serious troubles and it is questionable why bugs that already have
> solutions are STILL NOT in the actual SVN (like attribute selectors).
> And it is very annoying that the menu - even though from many people
> mentioned here - still has severe troubles with recognizing active
> states etc.
>
> Very troublesome, too, is the template setup, which for some reason
> doesn't collaborate with TS as one is used from other extensions...
>
> On the other hand: the docu - even though not mentioning everything -
> is very good! Really! It points out very nicely how to install what,
> how to use it (with good hands-on examples) and gives very good hints
> as to what has to be paid attention to. Just take some time and read it.
>
> Ingo just told me in a recent mail that "soon" there will be some
> maintenance works done. He considers the status quo as pretty close to
> final - so let's see what comes up next!
>
> Zyklonne - take some time off from commerce, look into tt_products or
> trade or webformat! (I dare to say that you will soon realize that none
> of those systems work as much "out of the box" and "under one roof" as
> commerce does.) But come back to this list and keep sharing your
> experience with us! Even though your are desperate about the ext your
> experience is quite valuable to the community!
>
> Regards,
> Robert
>
>
>> Hi zylonne,
>>
>> how often do you plan to "retweet" this message?
>> I think your post did not get an answer because you are saying that
>> you´ll going to be offlist now.
>>
>> So replying to someone who isn´t there anymore doesn´t make much sense.
>>
>> I feel sorry for your anger about the commerce Extension. There are
>> still years old bugs, but the base core of commerce gives you a really
>> good shop framework that is very flexible, in my opinion. Of course,
>> this flexibility makes this extension also to be complex in some ways.
>>
>> Demanding a 100% working code of a developer fitting all needs is not
>> the right way in my view, but trying to help and give thanks would help
>> everyone much more.
>>
>> Well, if you think commerce is not the right thing for you, feel free
>> to try other things.
>> But, I also want to thank you for your post. There is much truth in it.
>> You wouldn´t have written it, if you haven´t had a reason for it.
>> But to tell people not to install it is a bit hard. I´ve installed
>> commerce on a production server a few weeks ago without any problems.
>> Well, I have to say that I know commerce since 3 years now, but such a
>> long experience is not needed with commerce to install it.
>>
>> There will be a book about commerce, I say "soon", as I don´t know the
>> exact time. Maybe this will help you.
>>
>> Have fun
>> Regards
>>
>> Ralf Merz
>>
>> On 2009-09-08 09:25:16 +0200, zylonne <zylonne@...> said:
>>
>>>
>>> How I wish I had read a post like this before wasting literally weeks of my
>>> time on typo3 commerce.  I bet that there are a lot of people out there like
>>> me, who see the commerce extension and think, hmm, maybe worth a try.  Let
>>> this posting be a warning to you! Here we go:
>>>
>>> 1. The Installation:
>>> You can bring down your whole server just by clicking on "install this
>>> extension". No dependency checks are made, and there are a LOT of
>>> dependencies. Install all those extensions in the wrong order, and you will
>>> have a blank screen, I mean, no Front End, NO BACKEND, NO TYPO3! Do not ever
>>> install commerce  on a production server for the first time unless you think
>>> it is fun desperately googling for help during a few panic stricken minutes
>>> while your whole site is down.
>>>
>>> 2. Select Attributes:
>>> For some reason the developers of commerce believe that the ability to
>>> select attributes for your products is some kind of advanced functionality.
>>> For example, you sell t-shirts. They come in 3 sizes and 5 colors.  The
>>> commerce solution is to list ebay style 15 articles!  Oh but there is a way
>>> to do it with drop down selects, only the code is broken, broken, broken and
>>> has been for years. I finally got it working after spending many intimate
>>> hours with the product php code. The problem?
>>> Even when it works there is a fundamental structural flaw in the select
>>> attribute code. Instead of using the radio/select form data itself,
>>> javascript is used to set some hidden variable  that the basket page
>>> expects.
>>>
>>> BIG BUG: user selects color "yellow", javascript  reloads form. But  client
>>> hits "Add to basket" immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds for the form
>>> to reload.  The basket still shows the original selection, because there was
>>> not enough time for the hidden form variables to get set.  I consider this a
>>> serious bug since this is the single most important functionality of any
>>> shop software "Add to basket".  No user will EVER understand that the reason
>>> their attribute selection is not carried into the basket is because they hit
>>> the button too fast.
>>>
>>> 3. No documentation for payment gateways:
>>> I have looked everywhere, written everyone I could find to write, posted to
>>> this list. There is simply no documentation anywhere on how to actually get
>>> a payment gateway working. Sure there is the paymentlib, and the paymentlib
>>> for commerce. I installed them. But when I configure everything that seems
>>> reasonable to configure and hit that payment method all I get is this on
>>> checkout "_ERROR". Maybe it works, but how can I know how without any docu?
>>>
>>> 4. Buggy Addresses:
>>> Sometimes when I proceed to checkout I am asked to add an address, sometimes
>>> not and the checkout skips right through to the end. I have no idea why.
>>> Looking through the list there seems to be a long history of problems with
>>> billing/delivery address. This afternoon was for me the final straw. First I
>>> was offered the form, then I wasn't.  That's it. On to tt_products.
>>>
>>> 5. Clientitus:
>>> This is by far the biggest problem with commerce. What is it? Clientitus is
>>> a sickness that affects some, but not all, open source software projects.
>>> 90% of the code does what it is supposed to. 10% does not (see the
>>> http://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-commerce/issues commerce bug list.
>>> )  That 10% never gets fixed because everyone actually running commerce in
>>> production is using some local branch.
>>> Look, I understand as much as anyone that there is a need to make a living.
>>> And I know how complicated it is to merge local branches to the main trunk.
>>> But if those bugs never, ever get fixed in the main trunk of the project
>>> (to say nothing about the TER version, 9.8, that is so fully non-functional
>>> that the first thing everyone on this lists tells you to do is to get the
>>> svn version) then a project has clientitus.
>>> Cynics might say that the core developers intentionally foster clientitus
>>> but I don't even believe that is true. I think they just don't have time to
>>> deal with the main trunk and its many, many problems.
>>>
>>> So, you like that fancy backend interface and still want to give it a try?
>>> Be prepared for one of these 3 options:
>>>
>>> 1. Hire a commerce core programmer for 100EU/hour to get your commerce
>>> working. Pay them again to merge the code each time a new version comes out.
>>> 2. Fix everything locally yourself. Then you never, ever upgrade to some
>>> future version of commerce that has fewer or different bugs because your
>>> code is all particular to your project.
>>> 3. Become a Commerce Saint. Join the core team with NO CLIENT paying you.
>>> Devote your life to fixing all of the commerce bugs just to say you did.
>>>
>>> Signing off this list now, thanks to everyone who helped me here and
>>> offlist. Good luck.

--
Ralf Merz
Dipl.-Ing. (FH)
merzilla
TYPO3 development, hosting, service

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-project-commerce mailing list
TYPO3-project-commerce@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-project-commerce

[Ralf Merz-2]

Aiiyyhh,

sorry Robert. Of course I mean

Regards
Ralf

That comes from doing several things at once. :)
So I´ll practise again:

Regards
Ralf


On 2009-09-08 18:38:08 +0200, Ralf Merz <ralf@...> said:

> Hi Robert,
>
> thanks for your post. Sounds nice! ;) You gave a warm helping hand to zylonne.
> About the book: no, I´m not going to be the author. I also look forward
> to this.
> At the weekend I´ll be on T3CON09 and will talk to the author. I´m
> curious what the conference will bring in cases of commerce.
>
> Regards
> Robert
>
> On 2009-09-08 14:59:12 +0200, Bob Wild <rowild@...> said:
>
>> There will be a book? Are you going to be the author, Ralf? Will it
>> also be published at OpenSourcepress like tt_products?
>>
>> Looking forward to this!
>>
>> As for zyklonne's post: I do feel with you! Really! commerce has
>> serious troubles and it is questionable why bugs that already have
>> solutions are STILL NOT in the actual SVN (like attribute selectors).
>> And it is very annoying that the menu - even though from many people
>> mentioned here - still has severe troubles with recognizing active
>> states etc.
>>
>> Very troublesome, too, is the template setup, which for some reason
>> doesn't collaborate with TS as one is used from other extensions...
>>
>> On the other hand: the docu - even though not mentioning everything -
>> is very good! Really! It points out very nicely how to install what,
>> how to use it (with good hands-on examples) and gives very good hints
>> as to what has to be paid attention to. Just take some time and read it.
>>
>> Ingo just told me in a recent mail that "soon" there will be some
>> maintenance works done. He considers the status quo as pretty close to
>> final - so let's see what comes up next!
>>
>> Zyklonne - take some time off from commerce, look into tt_products or
>> trade or webformat! (I dare to say that you will soon realize that none
>> of those systems work as much "out of the box" and "under one roof" as
>> commerce does.) But come back to this list and keep sharing your
>> experience with us! Even though your are desperate about the ext your
>> experience is quite valuable to the community!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>> Hi zylonne,
>>>
>>> how often do you plan to "retweet" this message?
>>> I think your post did not get an answer because you are saying that
>>> you´ll going to be offlist now.
>>>
>>> So replying to someone who isn´t there anymore doesn´t make much sense.
>>>
>>> I feel sorry for your anger about the commerce Extension. There are
>>> still years old bugs, but the base core of commerce gives you a really
>>> good shop framework that is very flexible, in my opinion. Of course,
>>> this flexibility makes this extension also to be complex in some ways.
>>>
>>> Demanding a 100% working code of a developer fitting all needs is not
>>> the right way in my view, but trying to help and give thanks would help
>>> everyone much more.
>>>
>>> Well, if you think commerce is not the right thing for you, feel free
>>> to try other things.
>>> But, I also want to thank you for your post. There is much truth in it.
>>> You wouldn´t have written it, if you haven´t had a reason for it.
>>> But to tell people not to install it is a bit hard. I´ve installed
>>> commerce on a production server a few weeks ago without any problems.
>>> Well, I have to say that I know commerce since 3 years now, but such a
>>> long experience is not needed with commerce to install it.
>>>
>>> There will be a book about commerce, I say "soon", as I don´t know the
>>> exact time. Maybe this will help you.
>>>
>>> Have fun
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Ralf Merz
>>>
>>> On 2009-09-08 09:25:16 +0200, zylonne <zylonne@...> said:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How I wish I had read a post like this before wasting literally weeks of my
>>>> time on typo3 commerce.  I bet that there are a lot of people out there like
>>>> me, who see the commerce extension and think, hmm, maybe worth a try.  Let
>>>> this posting be a warning to you! Here we go:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The Installation:
>>>> You can bring down your whole server just by clicking on "install this
>>>> extension". No dependency checks are made, and there are a LOT of
>>>> dependencies. Install all those extensions in the wrong order, and you will
>>>> have a blank screen, I mean, no Front End, NO BACKEND, NO TYPO3! Do not ever
>>>> install commerce  on a production server for the first time unless you think
>>>> it is fun desperately googling for help during a few panic stricken minutes
>>>> while your whole site is down.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Select Attributes:
>>>> For some reason the developers of commerce believe that the ability to
>>>> select attributes for your products is some kind of advanced functionality.
>>>> For example, you sell t-shirts. They come in 3 sizes and 5 colors.  The
>>>> commerce solution is to list ebay style 15 articles!  Oh but there is a way
>>>> to do it with drop down selects, only the code is broken, broken, broken and
>>>> has been for years. I finally got it working after spending many intimate
>>>> hours with the product php code. The problem?
>>>> Even when it works there is a fundamental structural flaw in the select
>>>> attribute code. Instead of using the radio/select form data itself,
>>>> javascript is used to set some hidden variable  that the basket page
>>>> expects.
>>>>
>>>> BIG BUG: user selects color "yellow", javascript  reloads form. But  client
>>>> hits "Add to basket" immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds for the form
>>>> to reload.  The basket still shows the original selection, because there was
>>>> not enough time for the hidden form variables to get set.  I consider this a
>>>> serious bug since this is the single most important functionality of any
>>>> shop software "Add to basket".  No user will EVER understand that the reason
>>>> their attribute selection is not carried into the basket is because they hit
>>>> the button too fast.
>>>>
>>>> 3. No documentation for payment gateways:
>>>> I have looked everywhere, written everyone I could find to write, posted to
>>>> this list. There is simply no documentation anywhere on how to actually get
>>>> a payment gateway working. Sure there is the paymentlib, and the paymentlib
>>>> for commerce. I installed them. But when I configure everything that seems
>>>> reasonable to configure and hit that payment method all I get is this on
>>>> checkout "_ERROR". Maybe it works, but how can I know how without any docu?
>>>>
>>>> 4. Buggy Addresses:
>>>> Sometimes when I proceed to checkout I am asked to add an address, sometimes
>>>> not and the checkout skips right through to the end. I have no idea why.
>>>> Looking through the list there seems to be a long history of problems with
>>>> billing/delivery address. This afternoon was for me the final straw. First I
>>>> was offered the form, then I wasn't.  That's it. On to tt_products.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Clientitus:
>>>> This is by far the biggest problem with commerce. What is it? Clientitus is
>>>> a sickness that affects some, but not all, open source software projects.
>>>> 90% of the code does what it is supposed to. 10% does not (see the
>>>> http://forge.typo3.org/projects/extension-commerce/issues commerce bug list.
>>>> )  That 10% never gets fixed because everyone actually running commerce in
>>>> production is using some local branch.
>>>> Look, I understand as much as anyone that there is a need to make a living.
>>>> And I know how complicated it is to merge local branches to the main trunk.
>>>> But if those bugs never, ever get fixed in the main trunk of the project
>>>> (to say nothing about the TER version, 9.8, that is so fully non-functional
>>>> that the first thing everyone on this lists tells you to do is to get the
>>>> svn version) then a project has clientitus.
>>>> Cynics might say that the core developers intentionally foster clientitus
>>>> but I don't even believe that is true. I think they just don't have time to
>>>> deal with the main trunk and its many, many problems.
>>>>
>>>> So, you like that fancy backend interface and still want to give it a try?
>>>> Be prepared for one of these 3 options:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Hire a commerce core programmer for 100EU/hour to get your commerce
>>>> working. Pay them again to merge the code each time a new version comes out.
>>>> 2. Fix everything locally yourself. Then you never, ever upgrade to some
>>>> future version of commerce that has fewer or different bugs because your
>>>> code is all particular to your project.
>>>> 3. Become a Commerce Saint. Join the core team with NO CLIENT paying you.
>>>> Devote your life to fixing all of the commerce bugs just to say you did.
>>>>
>>>> Signing off this list now, thanks to everyone who helped me here and
>>>> offlist. Good luck.

--
Ralf Merz
Dipl.-Ing. (FH)
merzilla
TYPO3 development, hosting, service

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[Christian Kuhn-2]

Hey there,

Ralf Merz wrote:
> So replying to someone who isn´t there anymore doesn´t make much sense.

that was my feeling, too.


> I feel sorry for your anger about the commerce Extension. There are
> still years old bugs, but the base core of commerce gives you a really
> good shop framework that is very flexible, in my opinion. Of course,
> this flexibility makes this extension also to be complex in some ways.

I was involved in some commerce projects recently and realized that
there are a lot of things to do for this extension. So I took care to
become a project member in forge and did some stuff (mainly cleanups,
but also some bugs I stumbled upon in projects).

I'll do my best to keep up the work but I'm also involved in other
things, so there's not too much spare time. But still, I'll check,
comment and commit bugfixes upstream that I had to fix in local projects.

From my experience: The team leaders welcome new active members. I was
accepted as member with commit rights very soon, sent my first patches
to the leaders and got pleasant feedback.

If your patches are clean and consider possible side effects and so on,
you'll receive positive feedback, too. It's up to the users,
administrators and coders to push this extension and keep it healthy.
Please keep in mind that commerce is one of the biggest extensions
available, with tons of fancy stuff.


Regards
Christian
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