DW Mailing List: Would it be better if it was not archived?

[Miriam Ruiz-4]

Hi,

One of the reasons -among others- that new women don't write in the
mailing list might be that the messages are being publicly archived
and exposed forever, and that could be quite intimidating. Do you
think it might help if the messages weren't archived?

Greetings,
Miry


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[Ursula Junque]

Hi MIriam,

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> One of the reasons -among others- that new women don't write in the
> mailing list might be that the messages are being publicly archived
> and exposed forever, and that could be quite intimidating. Do you
> think it might help if the messages weren't archived?

I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
(or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)


>
> Greetings,
> Miry

Cheers,

Úrsula

>
>
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>



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-- In Hiding, Pearl Jam

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[Miriam Ruiz-4]

2009/9/15 Ursula Junque <ursinha@...>:
> Hi MIriam,

Hi :)

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:

> I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
> (or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
> archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
> archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
> discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
> could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
> would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)

I'm not sure if the goal of the mailing list at the moment should be
discussing purely technical stuff. There are probably some other
mailing lists more suitable for that (d-mentors, d-devel, or some
others centered in certain technical aspects). I don't really know if
there is still an entry barrier for female newcomers at the moment (I
guess most of us who have been somehow involved in Free Software for
some time have already developed a thicker skin, so I'm not sure if
we're the best ones to evaluate that), but my perception is that once
a woman or a girl decides to step into the project, it's not that hard
to jump into the area they're more interested in. The most important
entry barrier I see at the moment is to convince new women or girls to
learn about the project and give it a chance. What I mean is that I'm
not exactly sure if it makes sense to consider d-women mailing list as
a technical list.

Greetings,
Miry


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[agnez]

Hello,
I can answer as a typical non writer here.
I don't think everything should be archived until forever, but I know
that other people care a lot about keeping somewhere what was once. So I
don't mind the archiving.

I'm rather intimidated to write here because I'm not a debian developer
but only a user which makes me think my place would be in the shadow of
this list..

cheers
ag

Miriam Ruiz wrote:

> Hi,
>
> One of the reasons -among others- that new women don't write in the
> mailing list might be that the messages are being publicly archived
> and exposed forever, and that could be quite intimidating. Do you
> think it might help if the messages weren't archived?
>
> Greetings,
> Miry
>
>
>  

--
Don't let Microsoft get any more from you... Stop using hotmail


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[Éric Araujo]

Hello

Since this is my first message here, I’ll introduce myself first. I am,
in no particular order, French, male, student, Python programmer,
activist, happy Debian user and Free Software enthousiast.

Debian-women is one of the two Debian mailing-lists I’m subscribed to;
other ones have too much traffic. The other one is
debian-devel-announce, to keep an eye on the news.

I subscribed to debian-women after reading about the project and paging
through the archive because I liked the goals of the project and the
atmosphere of the conversation. People are friendly, help each other,
don’t tell people their question is stupid, and are working to make
Debian a better place. They even talk about babies! Truly a different
atmosphere than some debian-devel threads.

So I’ve been getting mail for four months, following the debates without
piping in. I didn’t want to rush in and voice opinions before I had
observed the list. It was strange to feel myself in the minority, in the
group that had to be cautious, because not dominant. This is at least
one thing I’ve learned from d-w. My invisible contribution has been
going to the archives to report spam :)

Back on topic, I think archives are useful, because they turn discussion
into resources, both about technical stuff and women/inequality in
Debian/Free Software/computery things. Someone shy can directly mail
someone listed on the d-w website, can’t they? Plus, if someone writes
to the list confident it will not be made public, and then someone uses
the message to do something Bad™, the plan would backfire. Knowing your
message will be public when writing avoids that. (This scenario is very
hypothetical, but still.)

My €0.02.

Kind regards, Merwok


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[Don Armstrong]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> Do you think it might help if the messages weren't archived?

As long as the mailing list allows open subscriptions, someone,
somewhere is going to archive it, which will allow it to be indexed by
google.

So while discussing the effects of archival is interesting, actually
stoping archival would require closing the list, and auditing the
current subscribers. That's not something that I personally am
interested in doing (though I'm not speaking for other listmasters on
this issue).

Finally, if people are concerned about what they write being archived
for ever, they should use free email accounts like gmail to send
(relatively) anonymous messages to the list.


Don Armstrong

--
Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you. If you don't
bet, you can't win.
 -- Robert Heinlein _Time Enough For Love_ p240

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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[Brenda Wallace (Shiny)]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:

> 2009/9/15 Ursula Junque <ursinha@...>:
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>
>> I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
>> (or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
>> archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
>> archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
>> discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
>> could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
>> would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)
>
> I'm not sure if the goal of the mailing list at the moment should be
> discussing purely technical stuff. There are probably some other
> mailing lists more suitable for that (d-mentors, d-devel, or some
> others centered in certain technical aspects). I don't really know if
> there is still an entry barrier for female newcomers at the moment (I
> guess most of us who have been somehow involved in Free Software for
> some time have already developed a thicker skin, so I'm not sure if
> we're the best ones to evaluate that), but my perception is that once
> a woman or a girl decides to step into the project, it's not that hard
> to jump into the area they're more interested in. The most important
> entry barrier I see at the moment is to convince new women or girls to
> learn about the project and give it a chance. What I mean is that I'm
> not exactly sure if it makes sense to consider d-women mailing list as
> a technical list.

I mostly lurk on this list,  but I'd like the archives to stay. This
list, from time to time,  attracts those that want women to shut up
and go away. To have on public record the swift response from debian
that women are welcome is a good thing.

I can understand not wanting your post archived - i have numerous dumb
and obvious questions that i ask DDs usually on irc and don't want
those turning up next time an employer websearches for my name. I
wouldn't post those here (and i haven't seen tech questions on this
list)

But next time we get an obnoxious troll, i'd prefer their crap was
recorded against their name to be printed out at every job interview
they go to.


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[Jenna Gretsch]

I too am a lurker on this list, but I second Brenda's post.

Brenda Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>> 2009/9/15 Ursula Junque <ursinha@...>:
>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>>> I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
>>> (or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
>>> archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
>>> archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
>>> discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
>>> could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
>>> would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)
>> I'm not sure if the goal of the mailing list at the moment should be
>> discussing purely technical stuff. There are probably some other
>> mailing lists more suitable for that (d-mentors, d-devel, or some
>> others centered in certain technical aspects). I don't really know if
>> there is still an entry barrier for female newcomers at the moment (I
>> guess most of us who have been somehow involved in Free Software for
>> some time have already developed a thicker skin, so I'm not sure if
>> we're the best ones to evaluate that), but my perception is that once
>> a woman or a girl decides to step into the project, it's not that hard
>> to jump into the area they're more interested in. The most important
>> entry barrier I see at the moment is to convince new women or girls to
>> learn about the project and give it a chance. What I mean is that I'm
>> not exactly sure if it makes sense to consider d-women mailing list as
>> a technical list.
>
> I mostly lurk on this list,  but I'd like the archives to stay. This
> list, from time to time,  attracts those that want women to shut up
> and go away. To have on public record the swift response from debian
> that women are welcome is a good thing.
>
> I can understand not wanting your post archived - i have numerous dumb
> and obvious questions that i ask DDs usually on irc and don't want
> those turning up next time an employer websearches for my name. I
> wouldn't post those here (and i haven't seen tech questions on this
> list)
>
> But next time we get an obnoxious troll, i'd prefer their crap was
> recorded against their name to be printed out at every job interview
> they go to.
>
>

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[Lesley Binks]

2009/9/15 Jenna Gretsch <gretschj@...>:

> I too am a lurker on this list, but I second Brenda's post.
>
> Brenda Wallace wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2009/9/15 Ursula Junque <ursinha@...>:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>>>> I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
>>>> (or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
>>>> archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
>>>> archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
>>>> discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
>>>> could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
>>>> would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if the goal of the mailing list at the moment should be
>>> discussing purely technical stuff. There are probably some other
>>> mailing lists more suitable for that (d-mentors, d-devel, or some
>>> others centered in certain technical aspects). I don't really know if
>>> there is still an entry barrier for female newcomers at the moment (I
>>> guess most of us who have been somehow involved in Free Software for
>>> some time have already developed a thicker skin, so I'm not sure if
>>> we're the best ones to evaluate that), but my perception is that once
>>> a woman or a girl decides to step into the project, it's not that hard
>>> to jump into the area they're more interested in. The most important
>>> entry barrier I see at the moment is to convince new women or girls to
>>> learn about the project and give it a chance. What I mean is that I'm
>>> not exactly sure if it makes sense to consider d-women mailing list as
>>> a technical list.
>>
>> I mostly lurk on this list,  but I'd like the archives to stay. This
>> list, from time to time,  attracts those that want women to shut up
>> and go away. To have on public record the swift response from debian
>> that women are welcome is a good thing.
>>
>> I can understand not wanting your post archived - i have numerous dumb
>> and obvious questions that i ask DDs usually on irc and don't want
>> those turning up next time an employer websearches for my name. I
>> wouldn't post those here (and i haven't seen tech questions on this
>> list)
>>
>> But next time we get an obnoxious troll, i'd prefer their crap was
>> recorded against their name to be printed out at every job interview
>> they go to.
>>
>>

I'd like to keep the archive - it's useful reference.
There's an X- header you could add which prevented your post being
archived on news groups  X-No-Archive.
I have no idea if that is  recognised in this mailing-list environment.

Regards

Lesley


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[Dmitrijs Ledkovs]

I believe in transparent communication throughout debian. So yes to archiving.

And as far as I remember on d-w website there were contact details on
d-w mentors for private non public archived communication.

And I like d-w because it's like having a techny sawwy mom =)

On 16/09/2009, Lesley Binks <lesley.binks@...> wrote:

> 2009/9/15 Jenna Gretsch <gretschj@...>:
>> I too am a lurker on this list, but I second Brenda's post.
>>
>> Brenda Wallace wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2009/9/15 Ursula Junque <ursinha@...>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@...> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder why would this be a problem. If you discuss technical stuff
>>>>> (or are we talking about other stuff?), all lists everywhere are
>>>>> archived so other people with similar interests can search on its
>>>>> archives for other's problems, solutions or interesting related
>>>>> discussions. At least myself, thinking about how discussed subjects
>>>>> could be useful to others, never got intimidated thinking my messages
>>>>> would be kept forever. But maybe I'm missing something here. :)
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if the goal of the mailing list at the moment should be
>>>> discussing purely technical stuff. There are probably some other
>>>> mailing lists more suitable for that (d-mentors, d-devel, or some
>>>> others centered in certain technical aspects). I don't really know if
>>>> there is still an entry barrier for female newcomers at the moment (I
>>>> guess most of us who have been somehow involved in Free Software for
>>>> some time have already developed a thicker skin, so I'm not sure if
>>>> we're the best ones to evaluate that), but my perception is that once
>>>> a woman or a girl decides to step into the project, it's not that hard
>>>> to jump into the area they're more interested in. The most important
>>>> entry barrier I see at the moment is to convince new women or girls to
>>>> learn about the project and give it a chance. What I mean is that I'm
>>>> not exactly sure if it makes sense to consider d-women mailing list as
>>>> a technical list.
>>>
>>> I mostly lurk on this list,  but I'd like the archives to stay. This
>>> list, from time to time,  attracts those that want women to shut up
>>> and go away. To have on public record the swift response from debian
>>> that women are welcome is a good thing.
>>>
>>> I can understand not wanting your post archived - i have numerous dumb
>>> and obvious questions that i ask DDs usually on irc and don't want
>>> those turning up next time an employer websearches for my name. I
>>> wouldn't post those here (and i haven't seen tech questions on this
>>> list)
>>>
>>> But next time we get an obnoxious troll, i'd prefer their crap was
>>> recorded against their name to be printed out at every job interview
>>> they go to.
>>>
>>>
> I'd like to keep the archive - it's useful reference.
> There's an X- header you could add which prevented your post being
> archived on news groups  X-No-Archive.
> I have no idea if that is  recognised in this mailing-list environment.
>
> Regards
>
> Lesley
>
>
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>
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

With best regards


Dmitrijs Ledkovs (for short Dima),
Ледков Дмитрий Юрьевич


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[Helen Faulkner]

Hi all,

Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> One of the reasons -among others- that new women don't write in the
> mailing list might be that the messages are being publicly archived
> and exposed forever, and that could be quite intimidating. Do you
> think it might help if the messages weren't archived?

My opinion is that the value to the project of having the discussions archived
outweighs the potential problems with privacy involved.  There are so very many
mailing lists, forums and so forth online where everything that people say is
archived.  I would be surprised if the archiving was a big barrier to those who
are interested in contributing - it's something that we are all getting
increasingly used to.

Maybe we could try to solve the problem in another way.  Are there any contact
people listed somewhere that newcomers could email directly for information if
they were interested but shy?   Maybe highlighting that information more clearly
somewhere would help to encourage newcomers to post?

The other thing that I guess would be helpful would be encouraging people to
subscribe and lurk on the list.  Maybe we can make it clearer that people are
welcome to do that.  At least that way they will be reading posts and being
reminded about the existence of the project, and eventually I reckon that many
of the lurkers do end up posting something, it might just take them a few months
to get up to doing so.

Maybe it would help to point out that people can subscribe with a free email
address that doesn't have to identify them?

Helen


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[Lesley Binks]

2009/9/17 Helen Faulkner <helen@...>:

> Hi all,
>
> Miriam Ruiz wrote:
>> One of the reasons -among others- that new women don't write in the
>> mailing list might be that the messages are being publicly archived
>> and exposed forever, and that could be quite intimidating. Do you
>> think it might help if the messages weren't archived?
>
> My opinion is that the value to the project of having the discussions archived
> outweighs the potential problems with privacy involved.  There are so very many
> mailing lists, forums and so forth online where everything that people say is
> archived.  I would be surprised if the archiving was a big barrier to those who
> are interested in contributing - it's somethhing that we are all getting
> increasingly used to.
>
> Maybe we could try to solve the problem in another way.  Are there any contact
> people listed somewhere that newcomers could email directly for information if
> they were interested but shy?   Maybe highlighting that information more clearly
> somewhere would help to encourage newcomers to post?
>
> The other thing that I guess would be helpful would be encouraging people to
> subscribe and lurk on the list.  Maybe we can make it clearer that people are
> welcome to do that.  At least that way they will be reading posts and being
> reminded about the existence of the project, and eventually I reckon that many
> of the lurkers do end up posting something, it might just take them a few months
> to get up to doing so.
>
> Maybe it would help to point out that people can subscribe with a free email
> address that doesn't have to identify them?
>

Is it not possible to hide an email address when archiving?
Or write a server side script to hide it on screen ?

FWIW: I don't mind if people have an email address they use for
mailing lists or other purposes.
I do mind if they seek to completely hide their true identity for
ulterior motives - male or female.

Regards

L.


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[Patty Langasek]

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 02:25:38PM +0200, agnez wrote:

> I'm rather intimidated to write here because I'm not a debian developer  
> but only a user which makes me think my place would be in the shadow of  
> this list..


Please don't feel intimidated to write or post to this mailing list simply
because you're not a debian developer. The entire purpose of this group is
to encourage people (women, specifically) to be involved in some way - which
you don't have to be a developer to be involved. There are plenty of aspects
of the project that are important as well, and don't require programming,
packaging, or head-butting skills to do.

Everyone starts somewhere, even in Debian. As glorious as it would be to
wake up one day and simply know how to design an operating system, how to
manage a network, or how to program a
whatever-it-is-that-programmers-program, the simple truth of the matter is
we all start as users. Some of us will move beyond that scope, others will
remain as users, but we can still be involved.

Yours,
Patty

--
----------------------------------------------------------

Patty Langasek
harmoney@...

----------------------------------------------------------

At times, you may end up far away from home; you may not be
sure of where you belong anymore. But home is always
there... because home is not a place. It's wherever your
passion takes you.
                                --- J. Michael Straczynski


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