Dead Beat Clients.

[angry housewife]

Hello Everyone,

I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed.

Does a lawyer not charge for every hour of work that they do, whether they finish the case or not. Does a doctor not charge for every hour of work whether the patient lives or dies.Therefore, I do not understand why programmers should not be paid for every hour of work performed whether on-site or telecommute.

The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site.

What I want to see is a list of clients with a known reputation for not paying for work done. This is not libel but actual fact of broken contracts. Why should there be needless lawsuits when programmers can simply warn each other to avoid certain clients.

I will start this off by naming three clients who have not paid my husband. If you have also not been paid by these three clients please answer this post. If you have not been paid by other clients please post there names as well.

Are there people out there who are married or have a partner or family who has watched you slave over the computer for hours on end for nothing? Have you suffered  by not being able to pay the bills, or not being able to buy your children Christmas presents, or not even being able to fill up your gas tank in you car?

Most of us are living pay check by pay check. If you belong to a UNION not being payed would not happen to you and your spouse or partner or family would not have to watch you suffer over and over.

Now it is time to name names. These have not paid.


1. Online Corporation of America.
2. Network Solutions.
3. M.Chabot.


Lets add the others who either do not pay or do not pay in total and continue this very useful list to refer to. This list will help us all.

This is not consultants revenge, this is a housewife's initiative.

I look forward to reading the rest of the non-payers.


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[RobG-4]

I've been watching the Consultant's Revenge thread for a few days, but
haven't commented because most everything that I would say has been
said.  I like the idea, but I'm also worried about liability.  I also
like JW's idea about a place where both clients and companies can be listed.

I like this idea of the Deadbeat Clients list.  But I have a question...
shouldn't there be a list for clients who it's a fight to get paid, even
if you eventually do?  Or for clients who pay, but will negotiate you
down after-the-fact?  I have a few to add to the list if we're going to
have a list like that.

Rob


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[coderWil]

If this list is going to be created, you can probably break it off into
groups.  
1.  Dead Beats
2.  Slow Pays
3.  Partial Pays  (Partial invoices, not partial jobs)

I, personally, think this would be a grand idea.  I also think that the
company/client, should also be able to list on a similar system the names of
those consultants that left them in a lurch, walked away from the job, or
did something that specifically jeopardized the job.  I have recently been
speaking to a client who has had 3 people walk away.  As much as this is a
red flag for me to work with him, it also says something about consultants.
Unfortunately, I don't know if it was the client, the consultant, or the job
that was too obtrusive to be completed with.

I know for myself, such a list may not stop me from working with a client,
but it will make me 'stick to my requirements' harder.  (If my agreement is
weekly invoices, the first missed payment has all work stop until a
satisfactory explanation or payment has been received, if it is by
'milestone', no work until payment has been received based on the milestone,
etc.)

The unfortunate thing about a list like this is that it can't be 'amended'.
Once an email is sent on this list, it is forever searchable by the search
engines.  If you make a 'typo', or if a company name is the same for
different companies across regions, then there has been a 'mistake' that
cannot be 'redacted'.  I think this would be better served using a database
similar to the BBB system.

I know, for instance, that there is at least 1 client out there who would
say some poor things about me, and I about them.  What it comes down to is a
bad communication issue.  (the specs were, apparently, unclear (I had
thought that the client meant something, when they had meant something
else.)  Even though I have billed her for the hours I worked on it, she has
never paid, and never responded to additional contact.  I have written it
off and I hope that we both took a lesson away from it.  For me, even if you
have worked on a similar project before, address every project as if you
have never worked with them on one previously (get all the facts from
scratch).  Hers, be very clear in your specification documents.  And one for
both of us; don't just read and confirm each part of the specifications,
review them all with the other party to verify the verbiage relates the
intent.

William

--
William E. Seiter
 
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
 
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com =30099.21321.11


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[Matt Williams-2]

On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <rew12us@...> wrote:
> I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed.
>
> The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site.

I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of
the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay
several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same
contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
probably at fault.

Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.

I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone like
Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.

If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a reference
to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.

Just my 2 cents.

--
Matt Williams
"It's the question that drives us."

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[Vincent Cannady]

Hi Matt,

From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce

#1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
#2 Age - To young to be making a contract
#3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract

So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying

Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even though they have not paid you.

Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se).

The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,

I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create IT!


Just my $10,000!

> On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <rew12us@...> wrote:
> > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project
> is not completed.
> >
> > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for
> work done on-site.
>
> I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part
> of
> the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not
> pay
> several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the
> same
> contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> probably at fault.
>
> Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
>
> I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone
> like
> Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
> come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
> out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
> husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
> someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.
>
> If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a
> reference
> to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
> client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
> the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
> client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
> client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
> story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> --
> Matt Williams
> "It's the question that drives us.

"

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[S. Isaac Dealey]

> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one
> has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts
> would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union.
> Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back
> $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to
> a "National Technology Workers Union" that would have attorneys on
> staff would could deal with this mess,

Discussions like this always make me a bit uneasy, partly because I tend
to be "the odd man out" in conversations in general. Which makes it
tough for me to throw my hat in the ring on really controversial
subjects. Putting aside the current laws on the subject, I would like to
comment about public opinion and people's perception.

The mention of a union for IT workers actually reminds me of things I've
read or heard about the creation of the Screen Actors Guild. Many of the
reasons IT professionals cite for feeling exploited are similar in theme
if not in scope to the reasons actors felt exploited prior to 1937 when
producers finally agreed to negotiate with SAG. But in order for them to
get to that point they had to start bitching in 1925, over a decade
before hand. And I say bitching as no disrespect to the actors -- it was
absolutely necessary that they "bitch", loud, often and public.

It's not just on contract jobs either, but on full-time gigs. How many
companies demand more than 40hrs per week arbitrarily? I saw one company
in Texas that was ballzy enough to state 50+hr weeks in their job ad.
That's an extreme. How about keeping people on call and then insisting
that time spent working on call is not included in your 40hr week? How
many companies refuse to hire any kind of QA team in favor of using the
lack of QA as an excuse to make their programmers feel like shit for the
slightest mistake? What amounts to an excuse to make them feel like shit
for being human. Since they can be guaranteed that the programmers will
make mistakes, they can be guaranteed that they'll have their excuse for
berating them, so there's a constant steady stream of psychological abuse
from management and imo in many cases it's deliberate.

There's mention in Alan Cooper's book the Inmates Are Running the Asylum
of one of the early and influential IT managers who admitted to a
strategy of deliberately underestimating deadlines at roughly 50% of the
anticipated timeline for the express purpose of riding his programmers
like a jockey so that he could perpetually whip them into a frenzy with
comments about how they were behind schedule. And this guy was very
influential in the early days. Anyone want to guess why so few companies
have realistic deadlines in the software industry today?

I'm convinced honestly that things would be much worse for us if it
weren't for the fact that basic labor laws have improved so much since
1933 when SAG was first formed. Were it not for the fact that there's a
limit to how much companies can get away with pushing the work hours
laws here, we would probably be faced with something much more like the
MMORPG sweat shops in China or the much more exploitive contracts of
movie houses prior to 1937. The fact that our situation is better than
theirs doesn't make our situation reasonable, it just makes it not as
bad. There is no viable justification for continued psychological abuse
and fiscal exploitation (which imo are pretty closely related).

A large part of the reason we put up with it is because we're
conditioned to accept an unacceptable situation. Programmers given a
continued stream of psychological abuse from their managers over time
learn to believe that problems with the software are their fault, not
the fault of the company for refusing to hire QA. And then they start
flogging themselves on the company's behalf -- it just makes the
manager's "job" of abusing them that much easier. I've done it. I've
seen other programmers do it.

It's a well known phenomenon that abused people learn to expect the
abuse and then to justify it themselves. It happens with battered women,
etc. And it happens to programmers pretty much daily. So by the time any
of us strays from the standard response of "get it off your chest in
private, get over it and move on", the rest of us who are still
compliant automatically perceive whatever they have to say as being
indicative that there's something wrong with the person who's
complaining about the abuse, rather than being able to consider that
there might actually be abuse going on. The abuse has effectively become
invisibile to the abused.

So although a statement like "if several companies failed to pay you,
then that's got to be a problem with you" might seem rational, it only
seems that way. Without being intimately familiar with the specifics,
usually from the perspective of an impartial 3rd party, it's virtually
impossible to make that assessment with any veracity. It could be that a
person who charges very little for their services ends up frequently
subject to a poor perception of him and his work quality, i.e. that the
people hiring him are frequently hiring him because "he's cheap" with
the expectation that they can get away with exploiting him because "he's
cheap". Conversely, different types of abuse might be more common
amongst people who are paid higher amounts, with the perception that
"he can take the abuse, I pay him well enough". Frequently even the
"impartial 3rd party" can't be trusted, as judges will often simply side
with whomever the culture perceives to be "in the right", irrespective
of the facts. Five minutes looking at a few family-law cases is all the
proof you need that judges are equally susceptible to cultural illusions.
So the judge might be equally as apt to side with the "several people
didn't pay you -- it must be your fault" assessment, purely on the basis
of it being a popular opinion, irrespective of the facts.

I guess ultimately what I'm saying is if you find yourself reaading
complaints from someone else and saying "oh he's just bitter", it might
be beneficial to take a few minutes and try and get in touch with a
different headspace. He might "just be bitter" -- on the other hand, he
might just be pointing out a situation where as has been the case
repeatedly throughout history, abuse of a certain class of people is the
accepted norm.


--
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change?
     ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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[coderWil]

I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?

I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
would support it.

In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or a
lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
reviewed.

Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
worked well that they would share with the rest of us?

William

--
William E. Seiter
 
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
 
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:vnc@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.

Hi Matt,

From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what
Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to
work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit
for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at
that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce

#1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
#2 Age - To young to be making a contract
#3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
contract

So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not
do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying

Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
services even though they have not paid you.

Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract
Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court
Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
representing myself (pro se).

The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru
the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,

I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the
Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
create IT!


Just my $10,000!

> On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <rew12us@...> wrote:
> > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project
> is not completed.
> >
> > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for
> work done on-site.
>
> I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part
> of
> the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not
> pay
> several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the
> same
> contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> probably at fault.
>
> Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
>
> I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone
> like
> Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
> come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
> out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
> husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
> someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.
>
> If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a
> reference
> to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
> client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
> the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
> client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
> client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
> story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> --
> Matt Williams
> "It's the question that drives us.

"



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[Bryan Stevenson]

I will simply note 3 things:

1) I would never run such a list due to liability

2) Since 1995 I've only had 1 dead beat client.so perhaps it's not just
the clients??

3) Why are you hiding behind a temp Yahoo account and not giving your
name?  Surely this means you're ever bit as scared of liability as
everyone says you should be.

I feel for anyone that gets a raw deal from a client, so everyone should
protect themselves.  Paying upfront before code is released is great way
to avoid these issues.

Cheers

-  

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@...
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
 
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[Matt Williams-2]

It is true that I do not have much contracting experience. And I am
probably naive about all the things that can go wrong. Because of this
and due to Isaac's comments, I will retract my comment that because a
contractor has had several non-paying clients that the contractor is
at fault.

On the other hand, I will uphold my belief that there is two sides
(maybe even more, if there are other middle-men or vendors at play) to
the story. I'm not saying that a list is necessarily a bad idea. What
I am saying, and what I would encourage every other developer to do,
is take that list with a grain of salt. Heh, if I was approached by a
client that I knew had the worst reputation on the dead-beat list, I
would probably ask them about it straight up. But I would not
immediately rule them out until I felt I had both (all) sides of the
story.

As for a union, who knows, maybe it is a good idea. It would take a
bit more dissatisfaction than the few on this list before it would
happen. I know there are a lot of developers that have been burned,
but are probably quite satisfied overall.

I also will uphold my belief that getting some help on contracts and
communication with clients is always a good idea. Just like always
trying to expand and improve your programming skill, even the
experienced contractors should keep learning how to better deal with
clients.

My humble opinions,

Matt Williams

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[Aaron Rouse]

Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am
sure disadvantages as well.  One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT
workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a
collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things
like that.

On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter <william@...> wrote:

> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat
> clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.
>  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we
> have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>
> I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
> long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
> would support it.
>
> In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or
> a
> lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
> letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
> reviewed.
>
> Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
> worked well that they would share with the rest of us?
>
> William
>
> --
> William E. Seiter
>
> Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
> Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
> Enter passkey: goldengrove
>
> Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
> http://William.Seiter.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:vnc@...]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for
> what
> Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations
> to
> work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and
> submit
> for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client
> at
> that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
> Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
> Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
> negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
> break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce
>
> #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
> #2 Age - To young to be making a contract
> #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
> contract
>
> So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did
> not
> do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
> or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying
>
> Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
> wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
> meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
> services even though they have not paid you.
>
> Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
> different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
> different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in
> Contract
> Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT
> Court
> Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
> consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
> Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
> representing myself (pro se).
>
> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
> picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go
> thru
> the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
> not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
> pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
> Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,
>
> I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if
> the
> Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
> create IT!
>
>
> Just my $10,000!
>
> > On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <rew12us@...> wrote:
> > > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> > in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> > total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> > has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> > not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project
> > is not completed.
> > >
> > > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for
> > work done on-site.
> >
> > I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part
> > of
> > the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not
> > pay
> > several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the
> > same
> > contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> > probably at fault.
> >
> > Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> > helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> > clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> > contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
> >
> > I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> > would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone
> > like
> > Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> > experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
> > come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
> > out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
> > husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
> > someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.
> >
> > If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a
> > reference
> > to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
> > client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
> > the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
> > client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
> > client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
> > story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > --
> > Matt Williams
> > "It's the question that drives us.
> "
>
>
>
>

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[coderWil]

What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?

--
William E. Seiter
 
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
 
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:aaron.rouse@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 2:05 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.

Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am
sure disadvantages as well.  One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT
workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a
collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things
like that.

On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter <william@...> wrote:

> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat
> clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.
>  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we
> have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>
> I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
> long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
> would support it.
>
> In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or
> a
> lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
> letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
> reviewed.
>
> Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
> worked well that they would share with the rest of us?
>
> William
>
> --
> William E. Seiter
>
> Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
> Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
> Enter passkey: goldengrove
>
> Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
> http://William.Seiter.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:vnc@...]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for
> what
> Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations
> to
> work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and
> submit
> for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client
> at
> that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
> Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
> Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
> negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
> break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce
>
> #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
> #2 Age - To young to be making a contract
> #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
> contract
>
> So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did
> not
> do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
> or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying
>
> Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
> wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
> meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
> services even though they have not paid you.
>
> Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
> different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
> different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in
> Contract
> Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT
> Court
> Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
> consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
> Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
> representing myself (pro se).
>
> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
> picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go
> thru
> the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
> not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
> pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
> Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,
>
> I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if
> the
> Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
> create IT!
>
>
> Just my $10,000!
>
> > On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <rew12us@...> wrote:
> > > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> > in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> > total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> > has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> > not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project
> > is not completed.
> > >
> > > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for
> > work done on-site.
> >
> > I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part
> > of
> > the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not
> > pay
> > several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the
> > same
> > contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> > probably at fault.
> >
> > Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> > helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> > clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> > contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
> >
> > I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> > would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone
> > like
> > Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> > experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
> > come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
> > out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
> > husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
> > someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.
> >
> > If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a
> > reference
> > to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
> > client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
> > the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
> > client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
> > client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
> > story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > --
> > Matt Williams
> > "It's the question that drives us.
> "
>
>
>
>

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[Jerry Johnson]

I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today.

If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly
trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do
work without a union card, I would find another line of work.

On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter <william@...> wrote:
> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>

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[S. Isaac Dealey]

> It is true that I do not have much contracting experience. And I am
> probably naive about all the things that can go wrong. Because of
> this and due to Isaac's comments, I will retract my comment that
> because a contractor has had several non-paying clients that the
> contractor is at fault.

Thanks Matt. :) I really hadn't intended to single you out per se, and
was more voting for the "grain of salt" approach I think. But you
wouldn't believe the amount of anxiety I have over posting that message.
Or maybe you would. heh... suffice to say it makes me pretty
uncomfortable to post something like that and I'm glad that it was well
received by at least one person. :)


--
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change?
     ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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[Jeffry Houser]

  I thought unions dealt with employer-employee relationships; whereas
this thread has been dealing with "company - vendor" relationships.  Am
I wrong in that?

  I can't imagine how a "programmer's union" would help me.

Jerry Johnson wrote:

> I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today.
>
> If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly
> trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do
> work without a union card, I would find another line of work.
>
> On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter <william@...> wrote:
>> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
>> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
>> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
>> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>>
>
>

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[Jeffry Houser]

  I was wondering that too...

  I don't believe that myself, as a business owner, is treated any
differently than other business owners who are no in the IT field.

  In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web
development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
headache I have to deal with.

William Seiter wrote:
> What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?
>

--
Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author,
Recording Engineer
AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: [phone]
--
My Company: <http://www.dot-com-it.com>
My Podcast: <http://www.theflexshow.com>
My Blog: <http://www.jeffryhouser.com>


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[Aaron Rouse]

Sorry, but when I first ran into it is when I was doing
network/hardware/software consulting which was a number of years ago,
probably over 10 and I have long since slept since then.  All I remember at
the time was there were some specific things that as an IT person we are
treated different than other trades even though in both trades the people
would be independent contractors.  It just was not something that every
morning I woke up and thought to myself "that damn 'tax man' needs to change
this crap" instead it was something I discovered and just moved on past.  It
might have been a state thing but I think it was federal just because at the
time I remember thinking about how in the merchant marines we at least had
organized groups of people who lobbied and often helped us more so than hurt
us in what they were lobbying for.  I actually have a rather negative
opinion of unions, they seem like a good idea but more often than not they
seem to evolve into something not so helpful.

On Feb 3, 2008 10:13 PM, Jeffry Houser <jeff@...> wrote:

>  I was wondering that too...
>
>  I don't believe that myself, as a business owner, is treated any
> differently than other business owners who are no in the IT field.
>
>  In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web
> development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> headache I have to deal with.
>
> William Seiter wrote:
> > What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?
> >
>
> --
> Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author,
> Recording Engineer
> AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: [phone]
> --
> My Company: <http://www.dot-com-it.com>
> My Podcast: <http://www.theflexshow.com>
> My Blog: <http://www.jeffryhouser.com>
>
>
>

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[S. Isaac Dealey]

>   In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut,
> web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> headache I have to deal with.

I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch?

--
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change?
     ph: 503.236.3691

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[Aaron Rouse]

I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain forms of
labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on.  One could maybe
debate if code is a "product" though.

On Feb 3, 2008 10:24 PM, s. isaac dealey <info@...> wrote:

> >   In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut,
> > web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> > headache I have to deal with.
>
> I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch?
>
> --
> s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
>  isn't it time for a change?
>     ph: 503.236.3691
>
> http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
>
>
>
>

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[S. Isaac Dealey]

> I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain
> forms of labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on.
> One could maybe debate if code is a "product" though.

I would think it would at least depend on who owns the copyright. If
you're selling a license and retaining the copyright then there's a case
for it being a "product". If they get the copyright, then it's
definitely a service, same as any other "work for hire". Though I
suppose it might be arguable that the license to use someone else's
intellectual property is a "service" -- I'm not that familiar with IP
law though, so I know that's out of my depth.


--
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change?
     ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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[Vincent Cannady]

Hi Jeff,

Here is how a Union could help us all.

Number- the Unions deal with Government Issues such as the ones we are talking about
a. Taxes
b. liability
c. healthcare
d. Transferring jobs overseas
e. Employee Rights
f. Collective Bargaining

Even if you own your own company they could be a wealth of Resources

a. Training
b. Access 1,000,000 Liability Insurance
c. Network of Programmers
d. UNLIKE THIS SITE they could name DEADBEAT CLIENTS who don't pay (upon your request)

As Issac mentioned in his post we simply are taught and trained to accept abuse and another thing I think he is right about is the low rate gives people a low expectation of your skills.

So how do we win, charging clients up front runs many good clients away because they too have been burned by our unscrupulous lot who have found it easier to ask for money and do no work

Not asking for money up front leaves you being owed one months pay and trying to find money to pay your light bill and ISP, because nine out of tenpay the first check but nothing afterwards

Suing just takes time,money, and effort

Not working leaves you broke

We are a disenfranchised lot who argue amongst ourselves we cannot even find common ground to deal with clients who don't pay, some cannot stand the thought of a Union,   even the owners of this site tells us what we moan about and if we do they take down our posts.

I find our lack organization to be the one reason employers (contract or otherwise) can get away with the things that they do, I mean lawyers have the BAR Association, Doctors have the AAMA, Chambermaids have the SEIU. We have nothing and are treated just like that.Maybe the other guy who said stop programming is right. Maybe our lack of vision says something about us. Maybe we are so logical we are stupid. I do not know but every time someone on this site posts something that cold help us all , all we do is try to take them down instead of support them. Maybe just maybe we deserve what we get if we blame serial non payers on other programmers instead of this lousy system!

>I thought unions dealt with employer-employee relationships; whereas
>this thread has been dealing with "company - vendor" relationships.  Am
>I wrong in that?
>
>  I can't imagine how a "programmer's union" would help me.
>
>Jerry Johnson wrote:
>>

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