Nabble - Debian Devel

Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Re: Invitation to the BSP in M=c3=b6nchengladbach (Germany), 22-24 January 2010?=

2009-12-03T00:21:05Z

Hi,

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 04:52:59PM +0100, Adnan Hodzic wrote:
> I'm definitely interested in participating! One question tho, since I'm from Bosnia,

nice. :-)

> what other activities (perhaps involving Debian) could I be involved in during
> this whole week, since I wouldn't come to Germany just for two days ... suggestions? Share :)

Well, I don't think that anything is planned from our side,
because we were not expecting that. So basically you are on your own.
Here are some hints:

- Moenchengladbach is quit near two at least two bigger german cities (Cologne
and Duesseldorf) both in something more then half an hour of reach and its easy to get
to the Netherlands. Also about half an hour travel time. All of these
cities have their own attractions. A good start to find about them,
are the cities homepages [1], [2].
- Moenchengladbach has some pubs in its "Altstadt", a museum about
modern art ("Museum Abteiberg"), as well as a castle which is a museum
as well, featuring at least an exhibition about the history of art and
culture of european renessaince.

There is probably more for you in either of the cities, but
that depends on your interests. AFAIK here are also some geocaches
hidden, if you are a geo cacher. If you are really interested
in joining us, you may want to write, what you might be interested
about, so we can help you a bit, what you could do.

Best Regards,
Patrick

[1] http://www.koeln.de/cologne_tourist_information
[2] http://www.duesseldorf.de/en/index.shtml

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T23:53:40Z

Ana Guerrero <ana@...> writes:

> If you really want to help, read the mail archive of the debian-python
> mailing list [1] (optionally hang out in the IRC channel), and get
> an idea of what the problem is.
> I also advise to take a look to the archive to people participating
> in this thread who has not been following the list. If you are lazy,
> just look for all the emails from Matthias in the python list.
>
> Ana
>
> [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/

This is good advice, so I went looking there to find out what it's all
about. And you were definitely right: The mailing list archive fully
demostrates the complete lack of communication and cooperation from the
maintainer, which seems to be the main problem with python at the momemt

This is the only python3 relevant article I found from Matthias Klose:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/02/msg00431.html

So 16 Feb 2009 he wrote "I will start uploading python2.6 and related
packages, then proceed with python3.x in the next weeks." Did I miss
any updates after this? If so, do you have a direct thread link to that
discussion?

Bjørn

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Re: Unversioned .so file in /usr/lib vs dh_makeshlibs vs postinst-must-call-ldconfig

2009-12-02T21:40:10Z

Modestas Vainius <modestas@...> writes:
> On pirmadienis 23 Lapkritis 2009 23:35:28 Russ Allbery wrote:
>
>> Debian tries to avoid RPATH used in ways that might break multilib or
>> override local administrator settings, which means we want to avoid
>> RPATH pointing to /usr/lib or to build directories and the like. But
>> RPATH is the correct solution for finding private libraries in a
>> subdirectory included in the package or built from the same source
>> package.

> Is RUNPATH any better? At least "override local administrator settings"
> should not be a problem with it.

RUNPATH is better in that it doesn't override LD_LIBRARY_PATH. Hm, I
wonder if we should recommend its use instead of RPATH for that reason,
since it preserves more of the intention of LD_LIBRARY_PATH.

I believe it still has problems for multilib if set to things like
/usr/lib.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@...) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Re: mercurial-buildpackage, now with pristine-tar support

2009-12-02T15:31:43Z

2009/12/2 Jens Peter Secher <jps@...>
>
> Executive summary: mercurial-buildpackage can now recreate pristine
> upstream tarballs.
>

Does it support 3.0 (quilt) and puts them into mercurial queues? That
would be IMHO a killer feature (me is sad that git is getting used for
packages so much I am still hoping hg or bzr will overtake git in DVCS
package management)

--
With best regards

Dmitrijs Ledkovs (for short Dima),
Ледков Дмитрий Юрьевич

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mercurial-buildpackage, now with pristine-tar support

2009-12-02T14:19:25Z

Executive summary: mercurial-buildpackage can now recreate pristine
upstream tarballs.

mercurial-buildpackage is a set of tools for maintining Debian
packages in a Mercurial repository, and in version 0.2 you can run
"mercurial-pristinetar 1.2.3" to recreate a tarball that is identical
to the one that was imported by mercurial-importdsc or
mercurial-importorig.

The recreation is achieved by an elaborate use of Mercurial branches
where each upstream component is given its own branch in addition to a
"pristine" branch where xdeltas and pristine-gz/pristine-bz2
information is stored; all out of sight for normal use.

Upgrading: If you have repositories created with version 0.1, then you
_should_ be able to use version 0.2 without problems, but you will
then not be able to recreate already imported upstream tarballs, only
future imports. Also notice that it is no more needed to do special
initialisation of a Mercurial repository; simply do a "hg init mypack"
to start a package.

Cheers,
--
Jens Peter Secher.
_DD6A 05B0 174E BFB2 D4D9 B52E 0EE5 978A FE63 E8A1 jpsecher gmail com_.
A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion.
Q. Why is top posting bad?

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is it ok to listen on a localhost port for tests during build time?

2009-12-02T13:59:48Z

Hi all,

I'm packaging an in-memory message queuing service [0] that ships tests, which
require listening on a non-privileged port for the 1-2 seconds that the tests
last.

The service supports no authorisation/authentication and, as of now, has no
way of limiting the size of inserted messages. Would it be acceptable if I
were to patch the tests to accept connections only from the localhost?
(implies a potential risk of a local user attack)

>From a robustness perspective, I could patch the tests to try several
different port numbers if the default (11400) is not available.

Cheers,
Serafeim

[0] beanstalkd, ITP #557128

--
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Re: Bug#559134: ITP: shc -- a generic shell script compiler

2009-12-02T13:42:06Z

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 08:48, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 02 2009, Milan P. Stanic wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 15:58, Karl Goetz wrote:
> >> On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 05:58:17 +0100
> >> "Dario Minnucci \(midget\)" <debian@...> wrote:
> >> > * Package name : shc
> >>
> >> > shc's main purpose is to protect your shell scripts from
> >> > modification or inspection. You can use it if you wish to
> >> > distribute your scripts but don't want them to be easily
> >> > readable by other people.
> >> Does this mean its a tool to make software no longer DFSG compatible?
> >> seems a bit odd to include in Debian.
> >
> > Then gcc (and other compilers) are at the odd with DFSG because they
> > produce unreadable code for most people. (some can read machine code)
>
> What this argument is missing is the point that the primary (and
> stated) goal of gcc and the ilk is not obfuscation.
>
> And the goal of obfuscation is not preventing tampering (since
> one may still modify obfuscated code, just not as easily (access
> control mechanisms do the non tampering bit)).
>
> The goal of obfuscation seems to be to prevent people from
> gaining knowledge; and obfuscation is pointless when the sources are
> available, so it is facile to argue that the issues are orthogonal. So
> there is some merit to the argument that this package is against the
> spirit free software.

I absolutely agree with you here, but if some user of Debian want to use
such tools (libfilter-perl is in repos for long time, I think) and some
maintainer is ready to maintain it, I can't see any valid argument
against it.
Debian does not segregate usage of its packages by any means, IIRC.

> Having said that, I am not advocating blocking this package (nor
> am I advocating accepting it), I am just commenting on the arguments
> being presented here.

I also don't want to advocate for this package because it is
uninteresting for me.

--
Kind regards, Milan

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Re: Not-For-Us state

2009-12-02T11:12:21Z

On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Luk Claes wrote:

> Matthijs Mohlmann wrote:
>> I'm the maintainer of pdns-recursor. This program uses swapcontext which is not available on all platforms.
>>
>> Recently the mips, mipsel and sparc architecture got support for those calls. So I sent a mail to <arch>@buildd.debian.org
>> for enabling this. But until now I didn't get any response, so my question is, did I forgot something ? Or sent it to the wrong
>> people ?
>>
>> See the following url too:
>> https://buildd.debian.org/~luk/status/package.php?p=pdns-recursor
>>
>> Hopefully someone can help.
>
> I guess the buildd maintainers of these arches are quite busy. I have
> removed the Not-For-Us status for the three mentioned arches.
>
> Cheers
>
> Luk

Thanks.

Kind regards,

Matthijs Mohlmann

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Re: Not-For-Us state

2009-12-02T11:01:41Z

Matthijs Mohlmann wrote:

> I'm the maintainer of pdns-recursor. This program uses swapcontext which is not available on all platforms.
>
> Recently the mips, mipsel and sparc architecture got support for those calls. So I sent a mail to <arch>@buildd.debian.org
> for enabling this. But until now I didn't get any response, so my question is, did I forgot something ? Or sent it to the wrong
> people ?
>
> See the following url too:
> https://buildd.debian.org/~luk/status/package.php?p=pdns-recursor
>
> Hopefully someone can help.

I guess the buildd maintainers of these arches are quite busy. I have
removed the Not-For-Us status for the three mentioned arches.

Cheers

Luk

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Not-For-Us state

2009-12-02T10:36:29Z

I'm the maintainer of pdns-recursor. This program uses swapcontext which is not available on all platforms.

Recently the mips, mipsel and sparc architecture got support for those calls. So I sent a mail to <arch>@buildd.debian.org
for enabling this. But until now I didn't get any response, so my question is, did I forgot something ? Or sent it to the wrong
people ?

See the following url too:
https://buildd.debian.org/~luk/status/package.php?p=pdns-recursor

Hopefully someone can help.

Kind regards,

Matthijs Mohlmann

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T10:25:54Z

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 05:06:40PM +0900, Angus wrote:

> Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
>
> I appreciate all the hard work that needs to done to maintain
> packages, but if you're going to maintain packages as important as
> these, take some responsibility already and make the effort! Or
> otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).
>
> Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.
>
> [/rant]

If you really want to help, read the mail archive of the debian-python
mailing list [1] (optionally hang out in the IRC channel), and get
an idea of what the problem is.
I also advise to take a look to the archive to people participating
in this thread who has not been following the list. If you are lazy,
just look for all the emails from Matthias in the python list.

Ana

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T08:53:07Z

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
> > as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,
>
> *Really*?? I was looking into the rfkill code since I reimplemented
> the protocol in my python applet and I don't see that. You can
> switch on/off one rfkill at a time, and that is NOT a group.

Depends on how you call it. Evidently, you have read the documentation
and thus are doing it right. I thank you for that :)

> > and want to manipulate just one. Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
> > cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.
>
> And? That is the right way, or?

There are two user cases: group and individual. It is not a question of
right or wrong. If your tool is for general use, you might want to add
group support if it fits the use cases your tool should address.

Group support is absolutely required only if you're also going to
process the various EV_SW and EV_KEY events related to rfkill.

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh

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Re: Bug#559134: ITP: shc -- a generic shell script compiler

2009-12-02T08:50:00Z

[Manoj Srivastava]
> Having said that, I am not advocating blocking this package (nor
> am I advocating accepting it), I am just commenting on the arguments
> being presented here.

Indeed, the thing to do would probably be to provide both shc and an
equivalent decompiler - assuming of course that shc is largely a set of
reversible transforms, as I imagine it is. That way nobody can be
deceived into thinking, when they use shc, that they are actually
hiding very much.
--
Peter Samuelson | org-tld!p12n!peter | http://p12n.org/

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=?UTF-8?Q?Re: Invitation to the BSP in M=c3=b6nchengladbach (Germany), 22-24 January 2010?=

2009-12-02T07:52:59Z

I'm definitely interested in participating! One question tho, since I'm from Bosnia, what other activities (perhaps involving Debian) could I be involved in during this whole week, since I wouldn't come to Germany just for two days ... suggestions? Share :)

Adnan

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@...> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> to help Debian freeze[1], there will be a Bug-Squashing-Party in
> Mönchengladbach, Germany on the weekend of 22-24 January, 2010. It
> will be held in the office of the German Open-Source-Support-Center
> at credativ GmbH[2].
>
> Even if you are not a Debian developer, but are interested in helping
> Debian to get all the open release critical bugs fixed, you're welcome
> at the BSP. There will be enough developers around to sponsor your
> NMUs. Some more information about BSPs and RC-Bugsquashing can be found
> at [3] and [4].
>
> Targets for the BSP are:
> * Take care of bugs found by piuparts[5].
> * Help the ipv6 release goal by adding ipv6 support to programs which do
> not support it yet. There is a list of bugs to work on, but continue
> to file new ipv6-related bugs if you find them - and fix them!
> * Find obsolete and unmaintained packages in testing/unstable and file
> RoQA removal bugs.
>
> Coordination for the BSP is done on the wiki page[6], where you'll also
> find transport and accommodation details. Mönchengladbach is located
> about 30km west of Düsseldorf and 50km north-west of Cologne.
>
> If you need accommodation please add yourself to the list on the wiki
> page as soon as possible.
>
> Hope to see you here,
>
> Bernd
>
> [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/10/msg00002.html
> [2] http://www.credativ.de
> [3] http://people.debian.org/~vorlon/rc-bugsquashing.html
> [4] http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
> [5] http://piuparts.debian.org/
> [6] http://wiki.debian.org/BSP2010/Moenchengladbach
>
> - --
> Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer
> http://bzed.de http://www.debian.org
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> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T07:03:52Z

Hi Henrique,

not sure if it fits here, but still interesting.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> Ah, ok. NetworkManager is supposed to be able to deal with rfkill, too

But probably only for WLAN, not WWAN. And then, I don't want install
the whole bunch of horrible NM only to switch off my WWAN when I don't
need it and want to save energy.

> > This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
> > not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.
>
> Heh, already got some side comments about gnome interfering with
> bluetooth rfkill from an user :-p

I cannot comment on that, since I am not using bt.

> > My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
> > of /dev/rfkill.
>
> Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
> as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,

*Really*?? I was looking into the rfkill code since I reimplemented
the protocol in my python applet and I don't see that. You can
switch on/off one rfkill at a time, and that is NOT a group.

So I am not sure what you mean, maybe I misunderstood you.

> and want to manipulate just one. Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
> cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.

And? That is the right way, or?

Best wishes

Norbert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Norbert Preining Associate Professor
JAIST Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology preining@...
Vienna University of Technology preining@...
Debian Developer (Debian TeX Task Force) preining@...
gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLOVIS (q.v.)
One who actually looks forward to putting up the Christmas decorations
in the office.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

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DEP-5: removed files

2009-12-02T06:56:51Z

Hi,

I remember that debian/copyright should not only list where the source
was downloaded from, but also the files which were removed by the
packager and the motivation for the removal (DFSG, patents, large
convenience copy of a library...). At least, that's how I interpret
this (from [1], I cannot find an excerpt from policy):

"3) Include a description of how you obtained the upstream source
tarball. This should be sufficient for anybody to duplicate the
process immediately, but don't worry too much if it isn't (eg, the
server is not public or no longer accessible)."

I see no way with the current [2]DEP-5 proposal to store this
information.

My proposal would be to add a new type of sections:

Removed-Files: similar to Files, for removed files
Rationale: reason for the removal.

Best regards, Thibaut.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/12/msg00194.html
[2] http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:55:08Z

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389
>
> Nice try, but I was talking about a GNOME/systray applet I wrote
> so that you can click-point turning on/off the various hardwares.

Ah, ok. NetworkManager is supposed to be able to deal with rfkill, too
(might need bleeding edge for that). I don't have a clue on how well it
does that, though.

> This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
> not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.

Heh, already got some side comments about gnome interfering with
bluetooth rfkill from an user :-p

> My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
> of /dev/rfkill.

Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,
and want to manipulate just one. Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh

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Re: Bug#559134: ITP: shc -- a generic shell script compiler

2009-12-02T06:48:26Z

On Wed, Dec 02 2009, Milan P. Stanic wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 15:58, Karl Goetz wrote:
>> On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 05:58:17 +0100
>> "Dario Minnucci \(midget\)" <debian@...> wrote:
>> > * Package name : shc
>>
>> > shc's main purpose is to protect your shell scripts from
>> > modification or inspection. You can use it if you wish to
>> > distribute your scripts but don't want them to be easily
>> > readable by other people.
>> Does this mean its a tool to make software no longer DFSG compatible?
>> seems a bit odd to include in Debian.
>
> Then gcc (and other compilers) are at the odd with DFSG because they
> produce unreadable code for most people. (some can read machine code)

What this argument is missing is the point that the primary (and
stated) goal of gcc and the ilk is not obfuscation.

And the goal of obfuscation is not preventing tampering (since
one may still modify obfuscated code, just not as easily (access
control mechanisms do the non tampering bit)).

The goal of obfuscation seems to be to prevent people from
gaining knowledge; and obfuscation is pointless when the sources are
available, so it is facile to argue that the issues are orthogonal. So
there is some merit to the argument that this package is against the
spirit free software.

Having said that, I am not advocating blocking this package (nor
am I advocating accepting it), I am just commenting on the arguments
being presented here.

manoj
--
No matter how many reporters share a cab, and no matter who pays, each
puts the full fare on his own expense account. -- Edward P. O'Doyle
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@...> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:33:29Z

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389

Nice try, but I was talking about a GNOME/systray applet I wrote
so that you can click-point turning on/off the various hardwares.

This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.

My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
of /dev/rfkill.

Best wishes

Norbert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Norbert Preining Associate Professor
JAIST Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology preining@...
Vienna University of Technology preining@...
Debian Developer (Debian TeX Task Force) preining@...
gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DORCHESTER (n.)
A throaty cough by someone else so timed as to obscure the crucial
part of the rather amusing remark you've just made.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:29:11Z

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Actually I don't care. I have used python only for a small applet
> that allows turning on/off rfkills (why is there nothing in the world
> by now, strange, maybe I should package it for debian, but I have

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:26:27Z

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> Also, FWIW, I was told that Matthias is currently unable to read/answer
> email. So don't put too much hope in a statement from him in the next
> hours.

Actually I don't care. I have used python only for a small applet
that allows turning on/off rfkills (why is there nothing in the world
by now, strange, maybe I should package it for debian, but I have
no idea how to do that, as there is hardly any explanation ;-)
and I don't care for newer versions, I just saw that the tone was
going into the wrong direction.

Best wishes

Norbert

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:17:13Z

On 02/12/09 at 14:26 +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:

> HI all,
>
> I have no personal opinion on python, but seeing that the maintainer
> has not stepped up and at elast *explained* what is going on and why
> we are lacking behind several releases is not a good sign.
>
> On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> > complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.
>
> You should behave, too, and not starting calling other "ass", that
> does not help anyone.
>
> What is needed is a statement of the maintainer on what his plans are
> and why there are problems. If he does not come up witha decent
> argumentation that should simply be discussed in the technical committee
> and the package handed over.
>
> Insulting as you (Lucas) did does not help, your insults were worse than
> what the OP wrote.

Note that the "you" is collective, i.e not just Sandro, but the various
people involved in Python in Debian that have been attacking Matthias
like that for months (if not years).

Also, FWIW, I was told that Matthias is currently unable to read/answer
email. So don't put too much hope in a statement from him in the next
hours.
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T06:06:33Z

> I agree that the current situation sucks. However, I've been involved in
> discussion with various developers on both sides (Debian and Ubuntu)
> that are interested in finding solutions. I'm still confident that we
> can reach a solution. But clearly, attacking each other like that is
> counter-productive.
>
> Please give us some time, and stop throwing fuel on the fire.

Specifically, what solutions to what problem(s)? "Please give us some
time" doesn't quite cut it when more than a year has already passed
without so much as a shred of information or a reply from the
maintainer to emails sent. When applying open source software why not
also apply open decision making?

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T05:50:40Z

I agree that the current situation sucks. However, I've been involved in
discussion with various developers on both sides (Debian and Ubuntu)
that are interested in finding solutions. I'm still confident that we
can reach a solution. But clearly, attacking each other like that is
counter-productive.

Please give us some time, and stop throwing fuel on the fire.
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T05:26:52Z

HI all,

I have no personal opinion on python, but seeing that the maintainer
has not stepped up and at elast *explained* what is going on and why
we are lacking behind several releases is not a good sign.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.

You should behave, too, and not starting calling other "ass", that
does not help anyone.

What is needed is a statement of the maintainer on what his plans are
and why there are problems. If he does not come up witha decent
argumentation that should simply be discussed in the technical committee
and the package handed over.

Insulting as you (Lucas) did does not help, your insults were worse than
what the OP wrote.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Marc Haber wrote:
> We actually need people showing traces of social skills, which you
> don't.

On which fact do you pose this statement? I think the OP did clearly
specify what are the problems in this area, and it seems that the
maintainer didn't respond by now.

So what is the problem with social skills, maybe you are the one lacking
them?

Best wishes

Norbert

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the afternoon he is due to start his vigil. As the knight arrives at
the castle the squires attempt to raise the drawbridge very suddenly
as the knight and his charger step on to it.
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T05:03:16Z

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009 à 12:07 +0100, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit :
> Seriously, Sandro. Do you really think that, in Matthias' position, you
> would agree to team-maintain Python with people that attack you so
> harshly on public mailing lists?

I certainly wouldn’t want to co-maintain anything with such a person, so
that’s actually a desirable side-effect.

--
.''`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T04:54:35Z

On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:26, Sandro Tosi wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:17, Ben Finney <ben+debian@...> wrote:
>> Sandro Tosi <morph@...> writes:
>>
>>> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
>>> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>>>
>>> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
>>> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?
>>
>> You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;
>
> to form a team to maintain python core packages (there is already a
> team on alioth, pkg-python, I think created for this purpose; it
> currently doesn't have any content in it)

The perl binary currently is team maintained inside debian. This is a separate team from the perl packages team which maintains perl modules in debian. Teamwork has allowed us to maintain a huge amount of high-quality debs, as well as enjoy each others company. :)

The perl binary team is relatively new, but it has some talented veterans who keep the perl binary up-to-date.

I strongly recommend working with a team when contributing to debian, it is an effective way to maintain software.

Jeremiah

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T04:19:33Z

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@...> wrote:
> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.

Right. Let him talk about current status of Python in Debian.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T03:52:25Z

Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.

There were several nice and friendly attempts to get this problem fixed behind
the scenes - but Matthias didn't even bother to reply to a single mail. I'm done
with him and Python definitely needs a new maintainer team, without him.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T03:07:59Z

On 02/12/09 at 09:27 +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote:

> Hello Angus,
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 09:06, Angus <charmender@...> wrote:
> > Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> > hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> > Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
> >
> > I appreciate all the hard work that needs to done to maintain
> > packages, but if you're going to maintain packages as important as
> > these, take some responsibility already and make the effort! Or
> > otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).
> >
> > Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> > seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.
>
> The problem with Python (interpreters packages) is the maintainer,
> that's force us in his one-man-show and, as you can see, it's failing
> loudly. Matthias is holding back the release and his not willing to
> communicate to the project (nor as a whole nor to the small group of
> people maintaining modules & apps, that keeps asking him about it) his
> plan or anything at all about these packages.
>
> Buy hey, let's close our eyes and pretend he's doing a good job...
>
> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>
> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?

Seriously, Sandro. Do you really think that, in Matthias' position, you
would agree to team-maintain Python with people that attack you so
harshly on public mailing lists?

If you really think that Matthias is not doing a proper job maintaining
Python, behave like in adult and use the correct Debian process: ask the
technical committee to hand over the Python packages to you (or a team).

Errors have probably been made on both sides in this story. But on
Matthias' side, I've never seen any aggressiveness towards you or
Josselin, or at least not at all comparable to the shit you give him.

It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.
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Re: Bug#558797: ITP: sessioninstaller -- APT based installer using PackgeKit's session DBus API

2009-12-02T03:02:09Z

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 04:21:31PM +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> > The confirmation, error reporting and progress notification of the
> > installation is handled by sessioninstaller. Currently it comes only
> > with a GTK based user interface.
> Shouldn't this by 'only comes' instead of 'comes only'?

No. sessioninstaller does not only come, it does many other things; however
when it does come it does so only with one interface.

(further discussion should go to debian-l10n-english, -devel is not the
place.)

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T03:00:14Z

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:06:40 +0900, Angus <charmender@...> wrote:
>Or
>otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).

We actually need people showing traces of social skills, which you
don't.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T01:26:27Z

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:17, Ben Finney <ben+debian@...> wrote:
> Sandro Tosi <morph@...> writes:
>
>> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
>> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>>
>> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
>> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?
>
> You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;

to form a team to maintain python core packages (there is already a
team on alioth, pkg-python, I think created for this purpose; it
currently doesn't have any content in it)

> and what is it that has prevented it being done already?

That, without a formal ack from the maintainer, it would be an hijack;
and it's not we didn't ask for collaborative maintainership of python.
If instead the decision is made distribution-wide, it's a different
topic, and probably we can come out with something from this thread.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T01:22:27Z

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009 à 09:27 +0100, Sandro Tosi a écrit :
> The problem with Python (interpreters packages) is the maintainer,
> that's force us in his one-man-show and, as you can see, it's failing
> loudly. Matthias is holding back the release and his not willing to
> communicate to the project (nor as a whole nor to the small group of
> people maintaining modules & apps, that keeps asking him about it) his
> plan or anything at all about these packages.

I’m interested to know what Matthias’ boss has to say about this.

Mark, you told me once that you wanted “the best for Debian”. Currently,
a Canonical employee is specifically holding back development of a whole
area of the distribution, and has repeatedly broken his packages without
concertation over the last years.

This doesn’t look like “the best for Debian” to me; it looks more like
maintaining an artificial state where Debian always lags behind Ubuntu -
and when it doesn’t, it is to follow Ubuntu changes without the
opportunity to question them or to implement them in a way that conforms
to our quality principles.

Maybe now is the time to do more than saying those words.

Cheers,
--
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: :' :
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2009-12-02T01:17:15Z

Sandro Tosi <morph@...> writes:

> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>
> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?

You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;
and what is it that has prevented it being done already?

--
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`\ knowledge.” —Charles Darwin, _The Descent of Man_, 1871 |
_o__) |
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