Nabble - Debian Project

Re-thinking Debian membership - take #1: inactivity - getting implemented

2009-12-10T04:32:12Z

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 06:03:41PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> This proposal received a lot of interest back then, but in the end
> went nowhere. I think we should resurrect it and put into use at
> least some of its parts. In particular, the part about "expiration
> of DD rights" received only minor criticisms; criticisms which I've
> tried to address.

Here is a(nother) status update on [1].

In the past few days I've been in touch with Christoph Berg as a DAM
representative, which has been implementing the inactivity proposal
starting from the sample scripts of [1]. Then, DAM also had a first run
of the inactivity test (i.e. 2 years without neither an upload nor a
vote).

Given that it was the first run, instead of directly removing the
resulting account, DAM preferred to have a WAT run [2] on the accounts
resulting from the inactivity test. The recent set of WAT-related
resignations descended from that.

I've been told that in the recent future the removal will become
automatic de facto replacing WAT runs. DAM will probably post more
details separately when that will happen.

Many thanks to DAM for their integration work!
Cheers.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2009/07/msg00067.html
[2] http://blog.ganneff.de/blog/2007/07/14/wat-where-are-they.html

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-09T17:47:54Z

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 02:36:13PM +0100, Ana Guerrero wrote:
>
> Just a quick note, no all the post provided by news.d.n have to be agregated
> to planet. I think the weekly sections (new packages and wnpp[1]) could
> be skipped and just agregate the updates posts ...

I have just agregated this filtered feed to planet.

Ana

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2009-12-09T06:28:10Z

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2009-12-08T02:30:03Z

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Agenda for debian.ch AGM 10 Dec 2009

2009-12-08T00:59:18Z

Hello,

The following shall be the agenda for the upcoming debian.ch AGM[0] on
10 Dec 2009 in Bern, Switzerland. Attendance is open to everyone,
but we ask for prior notice via the Doodle poll[1]

0. http://lists.debian.ch/community@.../2009/msg00111.html
1. http://doodle.com/ytcdd4xii27pnftr

Agenda
''''''
1. Report of activities 2009
2. Financial report
3. Discharge of the board members
4. Vote of the new board
5. Change of bylaws
- expulsion of members
- waiving of an auditing agency
6. New members
7. Plans for 2010
- what do we do with the money?
7. Miscellaneous
- webpage
- repository, data organisation

If you have anything to add, I'd appreciate prior notice. I am
acting on behalf of the current actuary.

See you Thursday,

--
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@...> Related projects:
: :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck http://vcs-pkg.org
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T20:38:37Z

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 09:07, Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@...> wrote:
> Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
> purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
> have it added to Planet?

Even though I understand that people prefer to have personal blogs on
planet, it is also true that for most of us, planet is a way of being
current with what's going on. In that sense, I think that news would
be a great addition.

--
Martín Ferrari

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T06:15:29Z

On Monday 07 December 2009, Michael Goetze wrote:
> IANADD, and don't generally have time to keep up with the d-d mailing
> list, so I would just like to say that for me personally it would be a
> great improvement to the Planet if this Feed were added. It sometimes
> seems rather hard to keep up with all the interesting things going on in
> Debian without getting bogged down in details...

That is also possible without the feed being added to planet.d.o: just
subscribe to the feed separately in your RSS reader [1]...

Your argument ("cannot keep up with lists") is not the correct one to
include it.

Aggregators should remain true to their stated purpose and not become
random collections of interesting feeds. If too many feeds (or to many
posts) get included that don't match the stated purpose of an aggregator
you also run the risk of pushing some users away.

I'd personally prefer to keep news feeds separate from planet (although I'm
not 100% opposed to including news.d.n as long as it's relatively low
volume).

Cheers,
FJP

[1] As I do myself.

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T05:46:53Z

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 10:12:49AM +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote:
> IIRC something similar has been discussed previously, when the
> RSS-Feed of the Debian Weekly News was added to planet. I wasn't
> involved back then and would need to search through the archives,
> but since it isn't present any longer, the outcome of the discussion
> is clear.
>

I think the case of the DWN was different because it resulted in very
long long posts agregated to planet. This was not a surprised because
there were written in a bulletin format and not blog format. The resulting
posts in planet were somehow strange and felt out of place because of this.

Also, they had their own distribution channel already:
via website http://www.debian.org/News/
via mail http://lists.debian.org/debian-news/
both channel previous to the existence of planet, so maybe people felt planet
was for something different.

Ana

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T05:36:13Z

Thanks Zack for bringing this up.

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 09:07:04AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
> purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
> have it added to Planet?
>

Just a quick note, no all the post provided by news.d.n have to be agregated
to planet. I think the weekly sections (new packages and wnpp[1]) could
be skipped and just agregate the updates post, example: brief updates [2],
team updates [3] and new developers [4].
Then we have between 1-3 weekly posts, usually just one.

I also want to say again news.debian.net is not meant to replace d-d-announce
just to complement it.

Ana

[1] New packages: http://news.debian.net/category/new/
wnpp: http://news.debian.net/category/wnpp/
[2]
http://news.debian.net/2009/12/06/brief-updates-testing-broken-xorg-modules-broken-kde4-d-n-down-and-events-in-germany/
[3]
http://news.debian.net/2009/12/03/new-security-team-member-and-new-security-team-assistant/
[4] http://news.debian.net/2009/12/01/new-debian-developers-november-2009/

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T05:09:38Z

Hi,

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> Since a while now, Ana has been doing a great job in providing the
> news.debian.net service [1]. I personally find it a very useful service
> in "blog news" style: it provides useful bit of information, it goes
> straight to the point, and does not post too often (once/twice a week
> usually).
>
> I have been recently wondering [2] why that feed is not on Planet. Ana
> would be glad to be there, but she has the impression that Planet policy
> forbids non-individual feds to be there. I've been checking the current
> guidelines which in fact _implicitly_ refers to individual blogs.

IANADD, and don't generally have time to keep up with the d-d mailing
list, so I would just like to say that for me personally it would be a
great improvement to the Planet if this Feed were added. It sometimes
seems rather hard to keep up with all the interesting things going on in
Debian without getting bogged down in details...

Regards,
Michael

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T01:12:49Z

Hi!

Sune Vuorela schrieb:

> Please not. While I like news.debian.net, I also like the fact that
> planet is for individual blogs.
>
> I would be happy to see a link to news.dn from planet somewhere
> where you notice it.

IIRC something similar has been discussed previously, when the RSS-Feed
of the Debian Weekly News was added to planet. I wasn't involved back
then and would need to search through the archives, but since it isn't
present any longer, the outcome of the discussion is clear.

Best regards,
Alexander

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T01:05:11Z

> I have been recently wondering [2] why that feed is not on Planet. Ana
> would be glad to be there, but she has the impression that Planet policy
> forbids non-individual feds to be there. I've been checking the current
> guidelines which in fact _implicitly_ refers to individual blogs.

> Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
> purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
> have it added to Planet?

Yeah well. Planet is "for any active and directly involved participant
in the Debian development community.", which kind of implies
personal. But we made exceptions in the past, like for loldebian or the
DebConf or DSA blog. I think the basic requirement there was that we can
easily identify who posted it (like an Author: line in the post), and
that it fulfills all other requirements of Planet.

If thats true for news.debian.net, ie the "published by" line is in the
rss feed too, fine, add.

--
bye, Joerg
Ubuntu: An ancient african word meaning "I can't configure Debian"

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T01:04:21Z

On 2009-12-07, Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@...> wrote:
> I have been recently wondering [2] why that feed is not on Planet. Ana
> would be glad to be there, but she has the impression that Planet policy
> forbids non-individual feds to be there. I've been checking the current
> guidelines which in fact _implicitly_ refers to individual blogs.
>
> Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
> purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
> have it added to Planet?

Please not. While I like news.debian.net, I also like the fact that
planet is for individual blogs.

I would be happy to see a link to news.dn from planet somewhere
where you notice it.

/Sune

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Re: let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T00:28:15Z

Hi,

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 09:07:04AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I have been recently wondering [2] why that feed is not on Planet. Ana
> would be glad to be there, but she has the impression that Planet policy
> forbids non-individual feds to be there. I've been checking the current
> guidelines which in fact _implicitly_ refers to individual blogs.

uhm.. isn't loldebian a non-entity feed? So if it is, there is already
precedence that this is okay.

> Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
> purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
> have it added to Planet?

I'm all for it.

Regards,
Patrick

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let's add news.debian.net to planet.d.o (!?)

2009-12-07T00:07:04Z

Since a while now, Ana has been doing a great job in providing the
news.debian.net service [1]. I personally find it a very useful service
in "blog news" style: it provides useful bit of information, it goes
straight to the point, and does not post too often (once/twice a week
usually).

I have been recently wondering [2] why that feed is not on Planet. Ana
would be glad to be there, but she has the impression that Planet policy
forbids non-individual feds to be there. I've been checking the current
guidelines which in fact _implicitly_ refers to individual blogs.

Given how useful the service is, and given that it does fulfill the
purpose of planet (most of the news are community-oriented news), can we
have it added to Planet?

[ Of course every DD can actually add it, before doing that however I'd
like to check that choice would not bother anyone / too many people. ]

Cheers.

[1] http://news.debian.net/
[2] http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2009/12/RC_bugs_of_the_week_-_week_13/
[3] http://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime

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Debian Maintainers Keyring changes

2009-12-06T18:21:18Z

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Re: Debian Store, México. Urgent, PLEASE

2009-12-02T13:52:27Z

Daniel Bonifaz dijo [Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 01:02:00PM -0600]:
>
> Hello! I want to be a Debian reseller in Mexico, want to sell Debian
> in the original package. Which are the steps to continuing to be a
> reseller of Debian in Mexico? Urgent please. Thank you
>
> Daniel Bonifaz
> México
> +52 55 56774421
> azulyoro.pumas@...

Hi Daniel,

Debian does not have an «original package» or anything like that - We
are a group of volunteers who make a -we think- great, Free operating
system. Anybody can download it and package it in whatever fashion he
wants.

If you want to talk about a specific project or to fulfill a given
need with Debian, please give me a call and I will further explain any
questions you might have (my phone numbers are on the signature). I
see you are "puma" as well, so we might be located in the same area of
this city - I live in Copilco and work at Instituto de Investigaciones
Económicas, UNAM.

Greeteings,

--
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Re: Debian Store, México. Urgent, PLEASE

2009-12-01T17:36:51Z

[CCing since I presume you are not subscribed]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Daniel Bonifaz
<azulyoro.pumas@...> wrote:

> Hello! I want to be a Debian reseller in Mexico, want to sell Debian in the
> original package. Which are the steps to continuing to be a reseller of
> Debian in Mexico? Urgent please. Thank you

Please read the information on our website:

http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/info
http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/
http://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed#footer

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Debian Store, México. Urgent, PLEASE

2009-12-01T11:04:37Z

Hello! I want to be a Debian reseller in Mexico, want to sell Debian in the original package. Which are the steps to continuing to be a reseller of Debian in Mexico? Urgent please. Thank you

Daniel Bonifaz
México
+52 55 56774421
azulyoro.pumas@...

Cuida tu aguinaldo y tus cuentas bancarias, OTTO te enseña cómo.

Debian Store, México. Urgent, PLEASE

2009-12-01T11:02:00Z

Cuida tu aguinaldo y tus cuentas bancarias, OTTO te enseña cómo.

Where are we on this debian.org

2009-12-01T08:53:07Z

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I haven't heard from you in a while just wanted to know where we stand.
Aren't you meant to avoid people you owe money to,
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you :)

Thanks, Andrew

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Üç ayda İngilizce konuşmak istiyor musunuz?

2009-11-21T15:58:02Z

Üç ayda İngilizce konuşmak istiyor musunuz

Üç ayda İngilizce konuşmak

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-20T16:24:16Z

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:17:12PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Steve Langasek <vorlon@...> [2009.11.18.2201 +0100]:
> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 05:09:56PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > > Yes, the security FAQ addresses the non-free issue. This doesn't
> > > make the situation any more desirable. At least not for me.

> > But that's not what you expressed in your mail, which could have
> > been (and probably was) taken as an authoritative statement on
> > behalf of the project.

> Those who disagree can make similarly "authoritative" statements in
> the opposite direction.

No, then we would have *two* people misrepresenting themselves as speaking
on behalf of the project, further confusing and frustrating outsiders who
are trying to get a straight answer from us. The fix is to not put words in
the project's mouth to begin with.

There's nothing wrong with asking non-Debian folks who've contacted our
lists to take particular viewpoints into consideration, or explaining our
actual policies. But asserting that things are requirements when they
actually aren't is not ok.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@... vorlon@...

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2009-11-19T14:58:29Z

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-19T03:59:11Z

All,

Thanks for your constructive feedback and comments.

I really appreciate all advice we can get to better support Opera
users on Debian.

Next steps from my side:

- Run your all your comments on updates, security fixes and the Auto-
updater etc with our Opera Desktop Linux team.

- Redraft our license to include rights to redistribute the browser

If you have additional comments, questions, advice or just want to say
hi, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best,

Haakon

--
Haakon Flage Bratsberg
haakon.bratsberg@...

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T13:17:12Z

also sprach Steve Langasek <vorlon@...> [2009.11.18.2201 +0100]:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 05:09:56PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > Yes, the security FAQ addresses the non-free issue. This doesn't
> > make the situation any more desirable. At least not for me.
>
> But that's not what you expressed in your mail, which could have
> been (and probably was) taken as an authoritative statement on
> behalf of the project.

Those who disagree can make similarly "authoritative" statements in
the opposite direction.

Paul's e-mail says everything I wanted to say, and more, and better:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2009/11/msg00049.html

The only addition is that you cannot really backport packages from
unstable. But that's something that could be addressed on
a per-package exceptional basis.

--
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@...> Related projects:
: :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck http://vcs-pkg.org
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"women who want to be equal to men lack ambition."
-- timothy leary

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T13:01:23Z

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 05:09:56PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> Yes, the security FAQ addresses the non-free issue. This doesn't
> make the situation any more desirable. At least not for me.

But that's not what you expressed in your mail, which could have been (and
probably was) taken as an authoritative statement on behalf of the project.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@... vorlon@...

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T08:09:56Z

also sprach Noah Meyerhans <noahm@...> [2009.11.18.1604 +0100]:
> > To get the software into non-free, we'd need you to commit to
> > security support of the stable version throughout the lifetime of
> > our stable release.
>
> Not really:
> http://www.debian.org/security/faq#contrib

a requirement. The point I was trying to make instead of suggesting
that security support was a requirement was that we should exercise
care not to expose our users to the risk of potentially obtaining
unsupported software from our archive.

Yes, the security FAQ addresses the non-free issue. This doesn't
make the situation any more desirable. At least not for me.

--
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@...> Related projects:
: :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck http://vcs-pkg.org
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

the early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap.

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T07:45:13Z

[Assuming you are not subscribed so CCing you]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Haakon Flage Bratsberg
<haakon.bratsberg@...> wrote:

> Opera Software is investigating whether we should change our distribution
> policy to allow redistribution of our Opera Desktop web browser.
>
> We appreciate any advice on what you regard as acceptable license
> restriction for being included as No-Free software in your web software
> package <http://packages.debian.org/stable/web/>.

In short, it needs to be legally distributable and practical to distribute.

Some barriers to legal distribution include the copyright license,
trademarks and the patents owned by Opera.

Debian policy mentions some requirements for non-free in sections
2.2.3, 2.3 and 12.5:

http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-non-free
http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-pkgcopyright
http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-docs.html#s-copyrightfile

Of particular concern for non-free web browsers (especially those
without source code) is security support. The Debian security team
does not support contrib/non-free, so you would need to either
backport security fixes to the versions available in stable/oldstable.
Alternatively you could keep one version in sid/unstable and regularly
upload backports to backports.org.

Once the package is legally and practically distributable, you'll need
to find someone willing to upload it to Debian:

http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html

Please also read the earlier threads about distributing Opera in Debian:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2009/08/threads.html#00107
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2007/09/threads.html#00088
http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2001/07/threads.html#00260

Releasing Opera under a free software license would be far preferable of course.

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T07:04:10Z

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 03:46:53PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> To get the software into non-free, we'd need you to commit to
> security support of the stable version throughout the lifetime of
> our stable release.

Not really:
http://www.debian.org/security/faq#contrib

noah

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T06:46:53Z

also sprach Haakon Flage Bratsberg <haakon.bratsberg@...> [2009.11.18.1300 +0100]:
> Opera Software is investigating whether we should change our
> distribution policy to allow redistribution of our Opera Desktop web
> browser.
>
> We appreciate any advice on what you regard as acceptable license
> restriction for being included as No-Free software in your web
> software package <http://packages.debian.org/stable/web/>.

To get the software into non-free, we'd need you to commit to
security support of the stable version throughout the lifetime of
our stable release. This would make us dependent on you, and put our
users at risk because we'd have to way to maintain/support your
closed-source software in case you lose interest in or can no longer
allocate resources to maintaining an old version.

If you'd release the source code under a Free licence and provided
security support, I guarantee we'd distribute it for you to
thousands of users.

--
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@...> Related projects:
: :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck http://vcs-pkg.org
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

god is dead.
-- nietzsche
nietzsche is dead.
-- god
nietzsche is god.
-- dead

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Re: Acceptable license restrictions for Non-Free sofware included in Web software package?

2009-11-18T06:46:14Z

"Haakon Flage Bratsberg" <haakon.bratsberg@...> writes:
> Opera Software is investigating whether we should change our
> distribution policy to allow redistribution of our Opera Desktop web
> browser.
>
> We appreciate any advice on what you regard as acceptable license
> restriction for being included as No-Free software in your web
> software package <http://packages.debian.org/stable/web/>.

Thanks for your interest. Debian/non-free is pretty much free of
requirements, so there is not much to do. The current Opera license does
not allow redistribution, which obviously needs to be changed. Other
than that, you just need to find someone with upload rights to the
Debian repository to maintain it.

If this would work out, it would probably be a good idea to disable the
auto-updater in Opera itself to display a "please update opera using
apt-get upgrade" (or something along those lines) message instead.

Kind regards,
Marc Brockschmidt

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