Developer Registration Request

[dmelliott]

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Dear Søren,

 

    I'm back; thank you for your patience.

 

    In terms of where things should go, I can only judge by what I find in my installation.  The folder with existing mfiles corresponding to "integ1es.m" is

 

    "Octave\share\octave\packages\integration-#.#.#"

 

and that with the corresponding mfile demos, disguised as "test_ ... ", corresponding to "test_integ1es" is

 

    "Octave\share\octave\packages\integration-#.#.#\test\ "

 

Neither of these folders are in the path, so nothing here clogs up the namespace.

 

    The "test" routine never need be on path, since its name and location are referred to in the "integ1es" help section.  This would avoid the very real problem of name space overpopulation.

 

    As with the previous integrator authors, I do feel strongly that an explicit test function be provided.

 

 

    I do hope this is pretty near the end of all this, since this routine is only a minor auxiliary for the one I wish to submit.  This was submitted first so I could learn how to do submissions.  Perhaps, if I get the hang of it, it will become more pleasant.   Putting the procedure in the instructions might be a help.  I never did find "%!" therein.  

 

 

                                                                                                            dmelliott

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: soren@...

To: dmelliott@...

Cc: octave-dev@...

Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:51 AM

Subject: Re: [OctDev] Developer Registration Request

Hi

Sorry 'bout the delay in reply...

1) The package you sent contains three files: the actual function, a
demo function, and some documentation. This is two files too many. The
documentation should be integrated with the help text of 'integ1es'. The
demo should be made part of the 'integ1es.m' file. Specifically, this
file should contain something like

  %!demo
  %! ord = XXX: pick a good example value
  %! for pts = [2:45,100,200,500,1000,10000];
  %!   if (pts == 1)
  %!     f = ((xu+xl)*0.5)^ord;
  %!   else
  %!     f = linspace(xl,xu,pts).^ord;
  %!   endif
  %!
  %!   I = integ1es(f,xl,xu);
  %!
  %!   E = I*(ord+1)/(xu^(ord+1)-xl^(ord+1))-1;
  %!
  %!   printf("Points = %5.0d    I = %7.5f    RelErr = %10.3g
\n",pts,I,E);
  %!
  %! endfor

at the end. This example will then be available when the user types
'demo integ1es'. These two changes should be made to avoid filling up
the namespace. Could you make these changes?

2) Carlo, where should this function go. Is the 'integration' package a
suitable place?

3) If you put these functions in the public domain then you should not
include the GPL text as part of the license. You have previously said
that you would like to publish this as public domain. If this still
stands, then please only have the following license:

  ## This file is in the public domain.
  ## It would be appreciated if the statement of authorship is
  ## preserved.

Please put this text _after_ the help text as otherwise it seems 'help
integ1es' doesn't work.

Søren

lør, 06 06 2009 kl. 17:27 -0500, skrev dmelliott:

> Dear Søren,
>
>     I forgot to change the name of the demo per your instructions.  Please
> feel free to make this and any other changes necessary to achieve
> standard practice conformance.
>
>                                 dmelliott
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Søren Hauberg
> To: dmelliott
> Cc: octave-dev@...
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [OctDev] Developer Registration Request
>
>
> tir, 02 06 2009 kl. 14:12 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
> >     The idea of this routine is that it integrates existing data in its
> > most
> > ususal form.  That is, it does not need a function to call, and, since,
> > for
> > better or for worse, most data comes on a domain of equally sized steps,
> > this is what it uses.  This is an attempt to make it compatable whith most
> > experimantal data, and the outputs of other routines, e.g. sales by week,
> > Fourie analysed amplitudes by frequency, actuarial data by age, etc.  The
> > patrial interval integrals, including cumulative, can be achieved by
> > looping
> > or otherwise manipulating the endpoint values.
>
> Sounds sensible. Most of the data I work with are equidistantly spaced,
> so I can related :-)
>
> >     The best way to see its worth is to compare it to the available
> > routine
> > for existing data, by editing the "integrator_verifier" to use the "trapz"
> > routine.  The latter is only of first order, and even for as many as 500
> > points on [0,1] yields a 2.01e-6 relative error for the next higher order,
> > the second.  For higher orders higher than second it is even more useless.
> > There probably should a caution appended to the instructions about this.
>
> OK. It would probably be wise to write a bit about this in the
> documentation of the function. Could you do this?
>
> >     The problem with a copyright in the U.S. (it is different in many
> > other
> > places) is that if you do not want to spend the money to register and
> > fight
> > a challange, you may end up with a legal record of having lost a copyright
> > infringement suit.  The government here does not proctively protect
> > copyright claims, even if registered.
>
> My knowledge about (and interest in) copyright law is very limited. I
> think it is perfectly fine if you don't want to claim copyright of some
> of your work. What is wrong with putting your work in the public domain,
> then? Then you're bypassing copyright law (as far as I understand).
>
> >     With respect to the name, perhaps integratores for "integrator, even
> > steps", or some such thing, would be more suitable.  I note that the names
> > in the integration package go by internal workings insted of giving a clue
> > as to what they are for.
>
> That is probably because several of the functions are trying to solve
> the exact same problem, so it is hard to come up with discriminative
> names for the different algorithms. Does your approach have a standard
> name? Can it be explained in terms commonly used in numerical
> integration? If so, then it might be easier to come up with a name.
> Also, does it work in N-dimensions? If it is only for 1D data, then it
> should probably end with '1' to signal this.
>
>
> >     What is the name of the "ø" character?  I have asked all my second
> > generation Dansk relatives, but they do not know for some reason.
>
> Well the character is named "ø" :-) The English name for the character
> is "o slash" (i.e. an "o" with a slash through). The sound of the
> character has no corresponding sound in English. Basically, that sound
> is not part of the English language. You can hear the different
> pronunciations of the letter at http://udtale.dansk.nu/
> Recently, it was pointed out that we have a bug in Octave in the
> 'fscanf' function, that could be triggered by the letter "ø" :-)
>
> Søren
>

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[dmelliott]

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Dear Søren,

 

    Much better "help".

 

 

        dmelliott

 

 

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[dmelliott]

Dear All,

    Yes, all our texts have this example.

    However, the stricter criteria of the radius of convergence from any
point
on the real axis, x, for a power series representation of 1/(a^2+x^2), a
real, being R=(x^2+a^2)^0.5 should be observed instead, since this is
where it stops working.  The theorem deals with where the series becomes
divergent, whereas the radius of convergence indicates when the series will
not be sufficiently convergent.

    I am having trouble understanding the statement "poor performance",
since this does quite well, both on my Pentium 2 and the Core 2, although
the answers are not identical.  Apparently the math handling in the Core 2
is better.

    This does go to show that you never want to take data for an arctan
process.  Instead you want it to simply tell you what its functionality is,
so
you can better integrate it.


                                                dmelliott

________________________________________________________________


----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo de Falco
To: dmelliott
Cc: Søren Hauberg ; octave-dev@...
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OctDev] Developer Registration Request



On 7 Jun 2009, at 00:25, dmelliott wrote:

>
> Dear Mr. de Falco,
>
>    While it does not have a singularity on the path of
> integration, it does at x = +/- i/5.  Thus the radius of
> convergence, from zero, interferes with the construction
> of a polynomial approximation therefrom.  This is also
> early calculus, and not subtle.
>
>    In the real world data comes to you as it comes to you,
> usually on an equal step domain and often without
> tolerance (necessary for any coherent data processing).
> If you can convince the all manufacturers of measuring
> equipment to modify all their machines, I am sure we
> would all be better off.  The Octave routines that give
> this type of output might be a place to start.
>
>    If you have a better method for equal step integration,
> it would indeed be of great value.
>
>
>                              dmelliott

On 7 Jun 2009, at 00:25, dmelliott wrote:

>
> Dear Mr. de Falco,
>
>    While it does not have a singularity on the path of
> integration, it does at x = +/- i/5.  Thus the radius of
> convergence, from zero, interferes with the construction
> of a polynomial approximation therefrom.  This is also
> early calculus, and not subtle.

The counterexample I proposed is indeed a very well-known one
(usually referred to as "Runge's counterexample") you can find
in any elementary text book on numerical analysis,
see for example [1], page 390 example 9.3.

But complex roots in the denominator do not have anything to do with
the poor
performance of high order Newton-Cotes formulae.

The reason why Runge's function exposes the limitations of Lagrange
interpolation on equispaced nodes (and therefore of quadrature rules
based on this kind of interpolation)
has rather to do, to put it simply, with the fact that it has large
areas near the
ends of the integration interval where it is nearly flat so that high
order, highly oscillating polynomials are not able to approximate it
correctly.

You should see the same effect by substituting a gaussian curve for
Runge's function in the example.

>    In the real world data comes to you as it comes to you,
> usually on an equal step domain and often without
> tolerance (necessary for any coherent data processing).
> If you can convince the all manufacturers of measuring
> equipment to modify all their machines, I am sure we
> would all be better off.  The Octave routines that give
> this type of output might be a place to start.

I did not object your idea to provide a function for doing quadrature on
(equispaced) data samples.
I just wanted to put out a warning that increasing the order of the
quadrature
formula does not always improve the accuracy, in the extreme case of
Runge's function it's even the other way around.
That being said,  I have nothing to object about your approach
as long as the docs explain exactly what your function is doing:
it is then left to the user to apply it wisely.

>    If you have a better method for equal step integration,
> it would indeed be of great value.

My suggestion was to simply use composit formulae of a fixed order and
let the users
choose the order depending on whatever a-priori knowledge they might
have about
how the data they are analyzing were generated.
An example of how to do this is in the attached function, you can see
a test by typing
"demo integ1samp"

I'm not proposing this as a substitute for your approach, it is just a
quick hack to explain my idea, do whatever you wish with it as I'm not
willing to pursue this subject any further.

c.
>
>                              dmelliott

[1] A. Quarteroni, R. Sacco, F. Saleri,
Numerical Mathematics, secon edition.
Springer Verlag (2007)


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[dmelliott]

Dear Søren,

    Wait, wait!

    Too many versions hanging around.  I picked the wrong one.  This should
work.

    Sorry, my fault.

    dmelliott


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[dmelliott]

Is this guy ever going to get it right?

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[Søren Hauberg]

lør, 13 06 2009 kl. 07:31 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
> Is this guy ever going to get it right?

:-)

I'm sorry to keep bringing up small issues -- I truly hope this doesn't
scare you from contributing. That being said I have three comments

1) In the license you write: "This file is distributed with Octave."
   This is not true. When we add the function to a package it will be
   distributed with the package, which is not "Octave". This is just a
   minor detail, but the line should be removed.

2) I still do not think the 'test_integ1es' function should be included.
   It seems like a demonstration to me, and not a function anybody would
   be using in their own programs. Is this true, or am I missing
   something? If it is true, then it would be better to add the example
   as a demo. We already have too many '_test' functions in various
   packages. These are but a remedy of old days.

3) You do not need to add semi-colons after keywords such as 'endif',
   'endfunction', etc. I don't care if you add or remove these
   semi-colons, I just thought you should know that you do not need
   them :-)

Other than these minor issues, I think your code looks good. Thanks for
doing this :-)

Søren


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[dmelliott]

Dear Søren,


    Please feel more than free to bring up any issue of compliance.
Learning how to do this was my goal for this submission.  Having been, among
many other things, a QA Manager, I am quite sensitive to document control,
and understand the importance of document uniformity.  Please feel totally
free, especially with my terrible spelling, and poor typing.

1)  Gone.  Need incorrectly assumed.  Does the 'help' work for you in the
last submission?


3)  I understand the lack of requirement.  I use it just because I find it
helpful to myself.  Also gone.


2)  Finally found the 'demo' documentation, sorry.  Will get back to you on
this.


    Question about these E-Mails.  I keep changing them to 'plain text'
because of a poor looking "Help" posting I once had, and trying to chop
things off at 80 characters.  Besides finding this something of a bother, I
can't believe that people are not using one of the many, free E-Mail
programs that do perfectly well with HTML (even if the forum doesn't).  Can
I stop doing this?


                                                                             
                Yours truly,

                                                                             
                        dmelliott




----- Original Message -----
From: Søren Hauberg
To: dmelliott
Cc: octave-dev@...
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [OctDev] Developer Registration Request


lør, 13 06 2009 kl. 07:31 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
> Is this guy ever going to get it right?

:-)

I'm sorry to keep bringing up small issues -- I truly hope this doesn't
scare you from contributing. That being said I have three comments

1) In the license you write: "This file is distributed with Octave."
   This is not true. When we add the function to a package it will be
   distributed with the package, which is not "Octave". This is just a
   minor detail, but the line should be removed.

2) I still do not think the 'test_integ1es' function should be included.
   It seems like a demonstration to me, and not a function anybody would
   be using in their own programs. Is this true, or am I missing
   something? If it is true, then it would be better to add the example
   as a demo. We already have too many '_test' functions in various
   packages. These are but a remedy of old days.

3) You do not need to add semi-colons after keywords such as 'endif',
   'endfunction', etc. I don't care if you add or remove these
   semi-colons, I just thought you should know that you do not need
   them :-)

Other than these minor issues, I think your code looks good. Thanks for
doing this :-)

Søren


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[Søren Hauberg]

lør, 13 06 2009 kl. 21:48 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
>     Please feel more than free to bring up any issue of compliance.
> Learning how to do this was my goal for this submission.  Having been, among
> many other things, a QA Manager, I am quite sensitive to document control,
> and understand the importance of document uniformity.  Please feel totally
> free, especially with my terrible spelling, and poor typing.

Usually, we only have minimal QA here at Octave-Forge, whereas things
are controlled more thoroughly at Octave. I mainly reacted to the
license issues (with this point, we need to show some caution), and then
I thought I might as well comment on your code :-)

> 1)  Gone.  Need incorrectly assumed.  Does the 'help' work for you in the
> last submission?

Actually, no. You're missing a "@end deftypefn" at the end of the help
text.

> 3)  I understand the lack of requirement.  I use it just because I find it
> helpful to myself.  Also gone.

If you find it more clear with the semi-colons in the end, then by all
means keep them. The Octave coding style requires that you remove them,
but we don't enforce that style here at Octave-Forge.

> 2)  Finally found the 'demo' documentation, sorry.  Will get back to you on
> this.

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have posted a link or something to show you how
demos are made.

>     Question about these E-Mails.  I keep changing them to 'plain text'
> because of a poor looking "Help" posting I once had, and trying to chop
> things off at 80 characters.  Besides finding this something of a bother, I
> can't believe that people are not using one of the many, free E-Mail
> programs that do perfectly well with HTML (even if the forum doesn't).  Can
> I stop doing this?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Are you receiving mail that
is formated as HTML or something like that?

Søren


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[dmelliott]

Dear Søren,

    O.K., let's give this a try.  The demo is changed.  See if it is O.K.,
if you would  (works on my Pentium II).

    No, it is not that I am getting things in HTML, although I wish I was.
It is that Octave is the only recipient that I write to that seems to want
'plain text'.  I can't believe that anybody still does E-Mail in plain text;
gopher?  Even my spell checker does not work with plain text.  HTML is much
easier to read, and has the normal facilities for written documents.
    So the question is:  do you prefer to receive things in 'plain text'?

                                                                             
            Cheers,

                                                                             
                     dmelliott

__________________________________________________________


----- Original Message -----
From: Søren Hauberg
To: dmelliott
Cc: octave-dev@...
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: [OctDev] Developer Registration Request


lør, 13 06 2009 kl. 21:48 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
>     Please feel more than free to bring up any issue of compliance.
> Learning how to do this was my goal for this submission.  Having been,
> among
> many other things, a QA Manager, I am quite sensitive to document control,
> and understand the importance of document uniformity.  Please feel totally
> free, especially with my terrible spelling, and poor typing.

Usually, we only have minimal QA here at Octave-Forge, whereas things
are controlled more thoroughly at Octave. I mainly reacted to the
license issues (with this point, we need to show some caution), and then
I thought I might as well comment on your code :-)

> 1)  Gone.  Need incorrectly assumed.  Does the 'help' work for you in the
> last submission?

Actually, no. You're missing a "@end deftypefn" at the end of the help
text.

> 3)  I understand the lack of requirement.  I use it just because I find it
> helpful to myself.  Also gone.

If you find it more clear with the semi-colons in the end, then by all
means keep them. The Octave coding style requires that you remove them,
but we don't enforce that style here at Octave-Forge.

> 2)  Finally found the 'demo' documentation, sorry.  Will get back to you
> on
> this.

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have posted a link or something to show you how
demos are made.

>     Question about these E-Mails.  I keep changing them to 'plain text'
> because of a poor looking "Help" posting I once had, and trying to chop
> things off at 80 characters.  Besides finding this something of a bother,
> I
> can't believe that people are not using one of the many, free E-Mail
> programs that do perfectly well with HTML (even if the forum doesn't).
> Can
> I stop doing this?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Are you receiving mail that
is formated as HTML or something like that?

Søren


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[Søren Hauberg]

tir, 16 06 2009 kl. 04:50 -0500, skrev dmelliott:
>     O.K., let's give this a try.  The demo is changed.  See if it is O.K.,
> if you would  (works on my Pentium II).

This looks fine to me, although you should use '%!demo' rather than '%!
test' -- the latter is for unit testing, whereas '%!demo' is for
demonstrating function usage. I've made this change and submited the
function to the 'integration' package in SVN.

>     No, it is not that I am getting things in HTML, although I wish I was.
> It is that Octave is the only recipient that I write to that seems to want
> 'plain text'.  I can't believe that anybody still does E-Mail in plain text;
> gopher?  Even my spell checker does not work with plain text.  HTML is much
> easier to read, and has the normal facilities for written documents.

You are the first person I have ever heard say this. To me it sounds as
if you have a really bad e-mail client.

>     So the question is:  do you prefer to receive things in 'plain text'?

Yes. I think _all_ mailing lists out there prefers this. It it the
common way of doing things.

Søren


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