Did God create matter?

[Ray, Debanjan IN BLR SISL]

Did God create matter?

 

Dear all,

 

After reading Raja Rammohun Roy's "The Brahmunical Magazine", I found
one interesting section which might question or even shatter one of our
fundamental beliefs about Brahmoism.

 

Let me first quote from the creed of Brahmo Dharma as written by
Debendranath Tagore : "In the beginning was one God, none else, and
naught but He, the Creator of all things." . We see similar ideas in
chapter II : "Nothing of this(universe) existed at the beginning. The
Real alone, Oh beloved! existed before creation as the one without a
second" [verse 10] , or, " He mediated and having mediated created all
this that exists. Before creation no other object besides the Supreme
God existed." [verse 11]. The verses have been taken from various
Upanishads e.g. Brihadaranyaka I.ii.1 , Taittriya II-vi etc.  We see
similar concept in Bible.

 

What can be interpreted from the above statements is that there was a
time when there was no material object in this universe; but only God,
who was a spirit or energy.  The whole universe was empty.

 

Now, let us look at what Rammohun commented in "The Brahmunical
Magazine" in 1821.  "The world as Vedanta says, is but matter, the
effect of Maya, and God is spirit". .... "It is obvious that the
material cause of the world is its most minute particles whose
destruction is evidently impossible: these are called anus or atoms. The
immaterial God cannot be supposed the material cause of those particles,
nor can Nothing be supposed to be the cause of them: therefore these
particles must be eternal, and are only brought into different forms, at
different times and places, by the will of God. We see all that
originate in volition or voluntary causes, producing effects by means of
materials; and as God is acknowledged by all parties to be voluntary
cause of the world, he therefore is believed to have created the world
by means of matter, space and time."

 

What Rammohun suggested is that both matter and God are eternal. He
clarified that God is spirit; and spirit cannot create particles. God is
like energy, and energy can generate force only to rearrange the
particles to create this world. But energy can not create matter. Are
not these two theories contradicting? Did the matter exist forever or
did energy (God) create the matter?

 

I would like all to comment on this. I have some study on this. But, I
would like to hear from you.

 

Regards,
- Debanjan Ray
 
 

 



 
 
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[sarbajitr]

"Matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
ie, The Law of conservation of energy as applicable for closed /
isolated systems.

We understand a bit more of cosmology nowadays compared to the
19th century. Of course there are some who say that Hindus are
very advanced in astronomical / cosmological sciences because
we are descended from aliens / gods from other planets /
universes / dimensions etc.

--- In brahmoconferenceorg@..., "Ray, Debanjan  IN BLR
SISL" <debanjan.ray@...> wrote:

>
> Did God create matter?
>
> Dear all,
>
> After reading Raja Rammohun Roy's "The Brahmunical Magazine", I found
> one interesting section which might question or even shatter one of our
> fundamental beliefs about Brahmoism.
>
> Let me first quote from the creed of Brahmo Dharma as written by
> Debendranath Tagore : "In the beginning was one God, none else, and
> naught but He, the Creator of all things." . We see similar ideas in
> chapter II : "Nothing of this(universe) existed at the beginning. The
> Real alone, Oh beloved! existed before creation as the one without a
> second" [verse 10] , or, " He mediated and having mediated created all
> this that exists. Before creation no other object besides the Supreme
> God existed." [verse 11]. The verses have been taken from various
> Upanishads e.g. Brihadaranyaka I.ii.1 , Taittriya II-vi etc.  We see
> similar concept in Bible.
>
> What can be interpreted from the above statements is that there was a
> time when there was no material object in this universe; but only God,
> who was a spirit or energy.  The whole universe was empty.
>
> Now, let us look at what Rammohun commented in "The Brahmunical
> Magazine" in 1821.  "The world as Vedanta says, is but matter, the
> effect of Maya, and God is spirit". .... "It is obvious that the
> material cause of the world is its most minute particles whose
> destruction is evidently impossible: these are called anus or atoms. The
> immaterial God cannot be supposed the material cause of those particles,
> nor can Nothing be supposed to be the cause of them: therefore these
> particles must be eternal, and are only brought into different forms, at
> different times and places, by the will of God. We see all that
> originate in volition or voluntary causes, producing effects by means of
> materials; and as God is acknowledged by all parties to be voluntary
> cause of the world, he therefore is believed to have created the world
> by means of matter, space and time."
>
> What Rammohun suggested is that both matter and God are eternal. He
> clarified that God is spirit; and spirit cannot create particles. God is
> like energy, and energy can generate force only to rearrange the
> particles to create this world. But energy can not create matter. Are
> not these two theories contradicting? Did the matter exist forever or
> did energy (God) create the matter?
>
> I would like all to comment on this. I have some study on this. But, I
> would like to hear from you.
>
> Regards,
> - Debanjan Ray

[sarbajitr]

Part-II

There is no contradiction between Debendranath and Rammohun.

Using the "Big Bang" of cosmology theory, All "matter" in the universe
is indestructible - and contracts and expands regularly. This is the
"sound" of God "breathing". At some points in this breath cycle, all
matter condenses into a single point "Singularity" at which brief
moment in time there is a "Big Bang" symbolised as "AUM" - the
primordial sound and Creation starts anew. At this moment in time, God
is AUM, and as Debendranath wrote "Before creation no other object
besides the Supreme God existed."

ergo: The Supreme God at that moment is also an "object" ie. material
and comprises all the matter in the universe.

--- In brahmoconferenceorg@..., "sroy1947" <sroy1947@...>
wrote:

>
> "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
> ie, The Law of conservation of energy as applicable for closed /
> isolated systems.
>
> We understand a bit more of cosmology nowadays compared to the
> 19th century. Of course there are some who say that Hindus are
> very advanced in astronomical / cosmological sciences because
> we are descended from aliens / gods from other planets /
> universes / dimensions etc.
>
> --- In brahmoconferenceorg@..., "Ray, Debanjan  IN BLR
> SISL" <debanjan.ray@> wrote:
> >
> > Did God create matter?
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > After reading Raja Rammohun Roy's "The Brahmunical Magazine", I found
> > one interesting section which might question or even shatter one

of our

> > fundamental beliefs about Brahmoism.
> >
> > Let me first quote from the creed of Brahmo Dharma as written by
> > Debendranath Tagore : "In the beginning was one God, none else, and
> > naught but He, the Creator of all things." . We see similar ideas in
> > chapter II : "Nothing of this(universe) existed at the beginning. The
> > Real alone, Oh beloved! existed before creation as the one without a
> > second" [verse 10] , or, " He mediated and having mediated created all
> > this that exists. Before creation no other object besides the Supreme
> > God existed." [verse 11]. The verses have been taken from various
> > Upanishads e.g. Brihadaranyaka I.ii.1 , Taittriya II-vi etc.  We see
> > similar concept in Bible.
> >
> > What can be interpreted from the above statements is that there was a
> > time when there was no material object in this universe; but only God,
> > who was a spirit or energy.  The whole universe was empty.
> >
> > Now, let us look at what Rammohun commented in "The Brahmunical
> > Magazine" in 1821.  "The world as Vedanta says, is but matter, the
> > effect of Maya, and God is spirit". .... "It is obvious that the
> > material cause of the world is its most minute particles whose
> > destruction is evidently impossible: these are called anus or

atoms. The
> > immaterial God cannot be supposed the material cause of those
particles,
> > nor can Nothing be supposed to be the cause of them: therefore these
> > particles must be eternal, and are only brought into different
forms, at
> > different times and places, by the will of God. We see all that
> > originate in volition or voluntary causes, producing effects by
means of
> > materials; and as God is acknowledged by all parties to be voluntary
> > cause of the world, he therefore is believed to have created the world
> > by means of matter, space and time."
> >
> > What Rammohun suggested is that both matter and God are eternal. He
> > clarified that God is spirit; and spirit cannot create particles.
God is

> > like energy, and energy can generate force only to rearrange the
> > particles to create this world. But energy can not create matter. Are
> > not these two theories contradicting? Did the matter exist forever or
> > did energy (God) create the matter?
> >
> > I would like all to comment on this. I have some study on this. But, I
> > would like to hear from you.
> >
> > Regards,
> > - Debanjan Ray
>

[Debanjan Ray]

Dear Sarbajit,
 
I am resending the message below, since it did not somehow earlier reach to the group.
 
Regards,
- Debanjan Ray
 
 



From: Ray, Debanjan IN BLR SISL
Sent: Thursday, 27 November, 2008 11:28 AM
To: 'brahmoconferenceorg@...'
Subject: RE: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
 
Dear Sarabajit,
 
Excellent thoughts…thanks...but few remarks below:
 
1)      Conservation: "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed" = Conservation of Mass, which was propounded by Lavoisier in 1789. But later on, with the advent of special theory of relativity, it was proved to be false by Einstein in 1905. Mass can be converted into energy. Atomic bomb, nuclear fission (which was discovered later on) experimentally proved loss of matter can result into energy. Similarly, “conservation of energy” is replaced by “mass-energy-equivalence”. Question: Whether energy can be converted into mass?
 
2)      Big Bang: Big Bang has many proofs; thus many proponents of Big Bang have won Nobel Prize too. But on the other hand it has several versions, because scientists have many unanswered questions, which they try to answer by several different theories. These theories are yet to be experimentally proved.
 
3)      Counter logic of Upanishad(and belief  of Debendranath): Assuming that God created the matter; and He is the first cause of such creation, and then assuming that, God existed forever, we can conclude that there must be a definite time when the matter was first created. Then “What did God do before he created the first matter?” We can frame the question in a different way: Since God existed forever, this means from the time of creation of first matter, we can go back infinitely back along the timeline, where there existed no matter. Then how comes God, after being inactive for infinitely long time, suddenly decided to create first matter?  This question was actually mentioned by St Augustine, Bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the 5th Century.  
 
 
 
Regards,
- Debanjan Ray
 
 



From: brahmoconferenceorg@... [mailto:brahmoconferenceorg@...] On Behalf Of sroy1947
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:22 PM
To: brahmoconferenceorg@...
Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
 
 
From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@...>
Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
To: brahmoconferenceorg@...
Date: Tuesday, 25 November, 2008, 2:21 PM






Part-II

There is no contradiction between Debendranath and Rammohun.

Using the "Big Bang" of cosmology theory, All "matter" in the universe
is indestructible - and contracts and expands regularly. This is the
"sound" of God "breathing". At some points in this breath cycle, all
matter condenses into a single point "Singularity" at which brief
moment in time there is a "Big Bang" symbolised as "AUM" - the
primordial sound and Creation starts anew. At this moment in time, God
is AUM, and as Debendranath wrote "Before creation no other object
besides the Supreme God existed."

ergo: The Supreme God at that moment is also an "object" ie. material
and comprises all the matter in the universe.

--- In brahmoconferenceorg @yahoogroups. com, "sroy1947" <sroy1947@.. .>
wrote:

>
> "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
> ie, The Law of conservation of energy as applicable for closed /
> isolated systems.
>
> We understand a bit more of cosmology nowadays compared to the
> 19th century. Of course there are some who say that Hindus are
> very advanced in astronomical / cosmological sciences because
> we are descended from aliens / gods from other planets /
> universes / dimensions etc.
>
> --- In brahmoconferenceorg @yahoogroups. com, "Ray, Debanjan IN BLR
> SISL" <debanjan.ray@ > wrote:
> >
> > Did God create matter?
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > After reading Raja Rammohun Roy's "The Brahmunical Magazine", I found
> > one interesting section which might question or even shatter one

of our

> > fundamental beliefs about Brahmoism.
> >
> > Let me first quote from the creed of Brahmo Dharma as written by
> > Debendranath Tagore : "In the beginning was one God, none else, and
> > naught but He, the Creator of all things." . We see similar ideas in
> > chapter II : "Nothing of this(universe) existed at the beginning. The
> > Real alone, Oh beloved! existed before creation as the one without a
> > second" [verse 10] , or, " He mediated and having mediated created all
> > this that exists. Before creation no other object besides the Supreme
> > God existed." [verse 11]. The verses have been taken from various
> > Upanishads e.g. Brihadaranyaka I.ii.1 , Taittriya II-vi etc. We see
> > similar concept in Bible.
> >
> > What can be interpreted from the above statements is that there was a
> > time when there was no material object in this universe; but only God,
> > who was a spirit or energy. The whole universe was empty.
> >
> > Now, let us look at what Rammohun commented in "The Brahmunical
> > Magazine" in 1821. "The world as Vedanta says, is but matter, the
> > effect of Maya, and God is spirit". .... "It is obvious that the
> > material cause of the world is its most minute particles whose
> > destruction is evidently impossible: these are called anus or

atoms. The
> > immaterial God cannot be supposed the material cause of those
particles,
> > nor can Nothing be supposed to be the cause of them: therefore these
> > particles must be eternal, and are only brought into different
forms, at
> > different times and places, by the will of God. We see all that
> > originate in volition or voluntary causes, producing effects by
means of
> > materials; and as God is acknowledged by all parties to be voluntary
> > cause of the world, he therefore is believed to have created the world
> > by means of matter, space and time."
> >
> > What Rammohun suggested is that both matter and God are eternal. He
> > clarified that God is spirit; and spirit cannot create particles.
God is

> > like energy, and energy can generate force only to rearrange the
> > particles to create this world. But energy can not create matter. Are
> > not these two theories contradicting? Did the matter exist forever or
> > did energy (God) create the matter?
> >
> > I would like all to comment on this. I have some study on this. But, I
> > would like to hear from you.
> >
> > Regards,
> > - Debanjan Ray
>

 














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[sarbajitr]

1) Law of Conservation of Mass is still valid for closed / isolated
systems. The Special theory of Relativity sets a limit E=mc2 on the
amount of energy which can be released by the extinction of matter by
anti-matter (this is a gross simplification).

2) Special relativity is not of interest to us since as Brahmos we
speak of One God and One Universe (ie. a single closed system).

3) I only used the Big Bang theory as a parable. In essence, at some
moment in time all mass (matter) in a Universe is "God" which explodes
outwards. Each mass particle of God has an associated energy (inertia)
which propels it to its limit in space. When the inertia (energy) is
exhausted, the particles will start moving backwards (acquiring
energy) and eventually condense back into all mass and explode again
(ad infinitum). To maintain balance, the "matter + anti-matter" cycles
are mirrored in multiverses.

4) God did not "create" matter, God is matter just as God is equally
energy. God created the universe and all the worlds within. Which came
first the chicken or the egg? Before God there was nothing except
Chaos which is still all-pervasive. God sprang from Chaos.

Sarbajit

> From: Ray, Debanjan IN BLR SISL
> Sent: Thursday, 27 November, 2008 11:28 AM
> To: 'brahmoconferenceorg@...'
> Subject: RE: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
> Â
> Dear Sarabajit,
> Â
> Excellent thoughts…thanks...but few remarks below:
> Â
> 1)Â Â Â Â Â  Conservation: "Matter can neither be created nor

destroyed" = Conservation of Mass, which was propounded by Lavoisier
in 1789. But later on, with the advent of special theory of
relativity, it was proved to be false by Einstein in 1905. Mass can be
converted into energy. Atomic bomb, nuclear fission (which was
discovered later on) experimentally proved loss of matter can result
into energy. Similarly, “conservation of energy” is replaced by
“mass-energy-equivalence”. Question: Whether energy can be
converted into mass?
> Â
> 2)Â Â Â Â Â  Big Bang: Big Bang has many proofs; thus many
proponents of Big Bang have won Nobel Prize too. But on the other hand
it has several versions, because scientists have many unanswered
questions, which they try to answer by several different theories.
These theories are yet to be experimentally proved.
> Â
> 3)      Counter logic of Upanishad(and belief  of
Debendranath): Assuming that God created the matter; and He is the
first cause of such creation, and then assuming that, God existed
forever, we can conclude that there must be a definite time when the
matter was first created. Then “What did God do before he created
the first matter?” We can frame the question in a different way:
Since God existed forever, this means from the time of creation of
first matter, we can go back infinitely back along the timeline, where
there existed no matter. Then how comes God, after being inactive for
infinitely long time, suddenly decided to create first matter? Â This
question was actually mentioned by St Augustine, Bishop of Hippo in
North Africa in the 5th Century. Â

> Â
> Â
> Â
> Regards,
> - Debanjan Ray
> Â  
> Â  
>
>
>
> From: brahmoconferenceorg@...

[mailto:brahmoconferenceorg@...] On Behalf Of sroy1947

> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:22 PM
> To: brahmoconferenceorg@...
> Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
> Â
> Â
> From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@...>
> Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Did God create matter?
> To: brahmoconferenceorg@...
> Date: Tuesday, 25 November, 2008, 2:21 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Part-II
>
> There is no contradiction between Debendranath and Rammohun.
>
> Using the "Big Bang" of cosmology theory, All "matter" in the universe
> is indestructible - and contracts and expands regularly. This is the
> "sound" of God "breathing". At some points in this breath cycle, all
> matter condenses into a single point "Singularity" at which brief
> moment in time there is a "Big Bang" symbolised as "AUM" - the
> primordial sound and Creation starts anew. At this moment in time, God
> is AUM, and as Debendranath wrote "Before creation no other object
> besides the Supreme God existed."
>
> ergo: The Supreme God at that moment is also an "object" ie. material
> and comprises all the matter in the universe.
>
> --- In brahmoconferenceorg @yahoogroups. com, "sroy1947" <sroy1947@ .>
> wrote:
> >
> > "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
> > ie, The Law of conservation of energy as applicable for closed /
> > isolated systems.
> >
> > We understand a bit more of cosmology nowadays compared to the
> > 19th century. Of course there are some who say that Hindus are
> > very advanced in astronomical / cosmological sciences because
> > we are descended from aliens / gods from other planets /
> > universes / dimensions etc.
> >
> > --- In brahmoconferenceorg @yahoogroups. com, "Ray, Debanjan IN BLR
> > SISL" <debanjan.ray@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Did God create matter?
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > After reading Raja Rammohun Roy's "The Brahmunical Magazine", I

found
> > > one interesting section which might question or even shatter one
> of our
> > > fundamental beliefs about Brahmoism.
> > >
> > > Let me first quote from the creed of Brahmo Dharma as written by
> > > Debendranath Tagore : "In the beginning was one God, none else, and
> > > naught but He, the Creator of all things." . We see similar ideas in
> > > chapter II : "Nothing of this(universe) existed at the
beginning. The
> > > Real alone, Oh beloved! existed before creation as the one without a
> > > second" [verse 10] , or, " He mediated and having mediated
created all
> > > this that exists. Before creation no other object besides the
Supreme
> > > God existed." [verse 11]. The verses have been taken from various
> > > Upanishads e.g. Brihadaranyaka I.ii.1 , Taittriya II-vi etc. We see
> > > similar concept in Bible.
> > >
> > > What can be interpreted from the above statements is that there
was a
> > > time when there was no material object in this universe; but
only God,

> > > who was a spirit or energy. The whole universe was empty.
> > >
> > > Now, let us look at what Rammohun commented in "The Brahmunical
> > > Magazine" in 1821. "The world as Vedanta says, is but matter, the
> > > effect of Maya, and God is spirit". .... "It is obvious that the
> > > material cause of the world is its most minute particles whose
> > > destruction is evidently impossible: these are called anus or
> atoms. The
> > > immaterial God cannot be supposed the material cause of those
> particles,
> > > nor can Nothing be supposed to be the cause of them: therefore these
> > > particles must be eternal, and are only brought into different
> forms, at
> > > different times and places, by the will of God. We see all that
> > > originate in volition or voluntary causes, producing effects by
> means of
> > > materials; and as God is acknowledged by all parties to be voluntary
> > > cause of the world, he therefore is believed to have created the

world
> > > by means of matter, space and time."
> > >
> > > What Rammohun suggested is that both matter and God are eternal. He
> > > clarified that God is spirit; and spirit cannot create particles.
> God is
> > > like energy, and energy can generate force only to rearrange the
> > > particles to create this world. But energy can not create
matter. Are
> > > not these two theories contradicting? Did the matter exist
forever or
> > > did energy (God) create the matter?
> > >
> > > I would like all to comment on this. I have some study on this.
But, I

> > > would like to hear from you.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > - Debanjan Ray
> >
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
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