Disappointment about the appearance of our CLT booth

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Hi!

I thought very hard about this mail, and believe me, that it is not
intended as a personal attack, but as a call for action / rethought / or
whatever. It's just that I don't think Debian should continue as it has
done at the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage. Debian has done, can do and must do
better.

So, what am I talking about? Well, it's just that I don't think, that we
did a very good job. Look for example at [1], where someone mistook the
booth of the sidux project for our own. Or look at [2], where you can
read: "[..] The many booths needed to be visited as well, especially at
the sidux-booth I spend some time. Other distributions where present,
two: Gentoo, Fedora, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Skole Linux, openSuse, Communtu.
But not only Linux OSes where there, but also the complete BSD-familie
NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD as well as the BeOS based HAIKU." Note that
the author doesn't mention Debian, although he was standing in front of
our booth for a longer time (the sidux booth was right opposite of the
Debian one). Considering, that he has written several blog posts about
Debian, one would think he would notice us as well. But he didn't.

Okay, so we had problems getting stuff to Chemnitz and had only a booth
with one poster provided by the organizers and some CDs we got to the
best of my knowledge from the Sidux project. No flyers to give away, no
real posters showing what project can be found here, no demo machine. If
you came to the booth it often looked like [5] or [6] or was even
completely abandoned!

It happened several times, that users approached me or Meike (both of us
being busy with giving talks, interviews, doing session moderation and
keeping a couple of other appointments) in order to ask questions,
because they didn't want to go to the Debian booth, having the feeling
to disturb there, and instead asked the questions to us directly.
That is already a bad sign. If we are even approached by journalists
about the state of our booth, it's a very bad sign. But if the
organizers themselves approach us about the booth and they inform us,
that they regularly take pictures of all booths and decide based on
these pictures where and if to place a project the next year and how
much space to grant it, we've really blown it!
I really got the feeling, that if it wasn't the Debian project they
would have considered droping us from the exhibition next year. And you
know what?  I can't really say anything against it; I agree with them,
that booths should either be done adhering to a minimum standard or not all.

Think about it... You go an exhibition, and there is someone siting at a
booth, turning his back to you while hacking or watching a video, even
with headphones covering his ears so he can hear better. Would you ask
this person a question or step closer to see what the booth is showing?


So, the question is now, what can we do to prevent things like that from
happening again. We already have the old booth checklist [9], a
requirements page[8] and the more recent Events Howto[7], and there
where enough Debian related people present to have enough manpower for a
really good booth. What went wrong? How do we ensure it doesn't happen
again next year? The Chemnitzer Linux-Tage are one of Germany's biggest
and most popular Linux events and I really don't think we can afford
leaving such a bad impression with all the people there!


Best regards,
Alexander


Links:
1:
http://gallery.kickino.org/chemnitzer_linux_tage/chemnitzer_linux_tage_2009/img_0397.jpg.html
2:
http://www.manpath.de/2009/03/16/das-waren-die-chemnitzer-linux-tage-2009/
5: http://www.schmehl.info/tmp/debian-booth-1.jpg
6: http://www.schmehl.info/tmp/debian-booth-2.jpg
7: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEventsHowto
8: http://www.debian.org/events/requirements
9: http://www.debian.org/events/checklist

[Julien BLACHE]

Alexander Reichle-Schmehl <tolimar@...> wrote:

Hi,

> organizers themselves approach us about the booth and they inform us,
> that they regularly take pictures of all booths and decide based on
> these pictures where and if to place a project the next year and how
> much space to grant it, we've really blown it!

I see that as a really good thing. Solutions Linux is the perfect
example of what happens when organizers don't do that, and it's not
pretty.

> Think about it... You go an exhibition, and there is someone siting at a
> booth, turning his back to you while hacking or watching a video, even
> with headphones covering his ears so he can hear better. Would you ask
> this person a question or step closer to see what the booth is showing?
>
> So, the question is now, what can we do to prevent things like that from
> happening again. We already have the old booth checklist [9], a

For what's described in the previous paragraph:
 - throw away those chairs
 - ban personal laptops

Laptops should be in their bags, unless required to give a demo that
can't be given on the demo machines (you had none, granted) or to
check something specific.

People manning the booth should be briefed about their behaviour on
the booth, what's right and what's wrong. If they don't behave, have
them leave the booth, they're not helping anyway.

That's roughly how I managed our presence at Solutions Linux those
past years, except I haven't had to show the door to anyone. It's hard
for geeks not to touch their laptops for 3 days in a row, but with
enough prodding they can manage it, really. And the next year they
know how it all works and some don't even bring their laptops again.

Bottom line: if our presence is going to suck, it's better to cancel
it.


Now, about demo machines and merchandise. Merchandise is painful to
manage, it's very time consuming but it can and should be done if at
all possible.

For demo machines, my plan for next time is to rent a couple of
machines for the week. It's easier than arranging for and relying on
people to bring hardware, and in the end it's cheaper than acquiring
hardware that won't be used that much and will have to be shipped
around etc.

I know just how hard it is to make a nice booth, and it can't be done
alone. It's teamwork, and if there's no committed team, there's no
booth.

All of the above is IME.

JB.

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[Michael Mohn]

Am 21.03.2009 um 15:22 schrieb Julien BLACHE:

Alexander Reichle-Schmehl <tolimar@...> wrote:

So, the question is now, what can we do to prevent things like that from

happening again. We already have the old booth checklist [9], a

For what's described in the previous paragraph:
- throw away those chairs
- ban personal laptops

Laptops should be in their bags, unless required to give a demo that
can't be given on the demo machines (you had none, granted) or to
check something specific.

What about a real booth? with counter and so on?

it's killing communication if you can't show the passers-by something on their level (meant to be: NOT sitting on a desk and so on)

my first impression of that stand was: "how did they transfer that 70's classroom to the fair..."

i don't now anything on how you organize those fairs and what budget there is and so on.. i know there will probably be nothing leftover for a nice impression.

on the other hand: when you can't do it right, maybe save the pennies for appearance on fewer shows and do it nice there?

bye bye,

Michael.

don't take it personal, please!

[Julien BLACHE]

Michael Mohn <mailinglists@...> wrote:

Hi,

> What about a real booth? with counter and so on?

That would be best, of course, but it's often overkill or not
possible for a variety of reasons.

> it's killing communication if you can't show the passers-by something
> on their level (meant to be: NOT sitting on a desk and so on)

In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and
everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often
the case.

JB.

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[Michael Mohn]

Am 21.03.2009 um 17:01 schrieb Julien BLACHE:

Michael Mohn <mailinglists@...> wrote:

Hi,

What about a real booth? with counter and so on?

That would be best, of course, but it's often overkill or not
possible for a variety of reasons.

naa, i meant not overkill, but just something like a desk i a convenient height for standing on it. and maybe something like a backdrop with debian-logo to hide the whole "sitting and talking"-area behind it. (or completely leaving that out, if not enough room)

it's killing communication if you can't show the passers-by something

on their level (meant to be: NOT sitting on a desk and so on)

In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and
everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often
the case.

but one HAS to use that stuff? or can you opt-out of using that furniture that just fills up the booth?

i would suggest having no sitting-stuff arround, because it is not a room to rest but a small booth. if there are real talks going on, i am shure there will be some place where you can take the people then.

and some nice light and a sympathic banner that states clearly readable what project there is. that would be enough to draw some attention. maybe there could be some sort of demo machine like a laptop on the "counter" but that would be enough, as its an event mainly focused on gathering together, social contact and so on.

the main part is, to get the people talking and listening, to get feedback and maybe stay in the minds of one or two visitors as a project, that really has community and not only one big protegé-verdor like Sun, Novell or any other.

another hard part cleary is, to have someone on the counter, that can interact in the right way with the visitors.

how about that part? are there volunteers for the booths? are there enough? are these volunteers competent in debian AND socializing with "coustumers"?

bye bye,

Michael.

[Meike Reichle-4]

Hi all

Michael Mohn said/sagte on/am 21.03.2009 15:34:

> i don't now anything on how you organize those fairs and what budget
> there is and so on.. i know there will probably be nothing leftover for
> a nice impression.
> on the other hand: when you can't do it right, maybe save the pennies
> for appearance on fewer shows and do it nice there?

I don't think the problem is that we don't *know* how to do a proper
booth. Everybody who was at the CLT for Debian has been doing these kinds
of events for a couple years already.
In my opinion the problem is more that keeping up a good booth requires
some discipline, both in the preparation and (probably even more) the
actual event. As Julien said, refraining from your laptop or from having
long talks with your friends instead of the users is not what we usually
do and thus requires some kind of conscious and constant effort.

As I see it we've in recent times become somewhat lax in this regard.
We all know perfectly well what a good booth should be like and there's
plenty places to read up on that kind of stuff. So maybe we should just
all pull ourselves together once more and put some more effort in our
exhibition presences like we used to do and thus avoid such glitches in
the future. We certainly owe it to our users and the people providing us
with the opportunities to show off our project at their events.

Best,
Meike


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[Julien BLACHE]

Michael Mohn <mailinglists@...> wrote:

Hi,

>> In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and
>> everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often
>> the case.
>
> but one HAS to use that stuff? or can you opt-out of using that
> furniture that just fills up the booth?

Opting-out is (pretty much) always possible, but then you look very
different from the other boothes, which might not be desirable in this
type of community events.

JB.

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[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Hi!

Julien BLACHE schrieb:

>> What about a real booth? with counter and so on?
> That would be best, of course, but it's often overkill or not
> possible for a variety of reasons.
>
>> it's killing communication if you can't show the passers-by something
>> on their level (meant to be: NOT sitting on a desk and so on)
> In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and
> everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often
> the case.

Yes, while these Demo-Points with bar stools are very useful, they are
often simply not available.  In this case, the exhibition hall was the
foyer of the lecture hall building and Debian got some tables from
seminary rooms.

That didn't stopped the people from other booths to stand, waiting for
visitors to come and greeting them eye to eye.

I wouldn't throw stools away, just put them in the background, just in
case there is a visitor, who gets something shown, which takes a bit longer.


Best regards,
  Alexander

PS:  I would also like to note, that the organizers of this event did
take care, that there are tables, banks and more or less quite rooms
available for booth personal and speakers.  So there was really no need
to sit at the booth hacking.

[Michael Mohn]

Am 21.03.2009 um 17:40 schrieb Julien BLACHE:

Michael Mohn <mailinglists@...> wrote:

Hi,

In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and

everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often

the case.

but one HAS to use that stuff? or can you opt-out of using that

furniture that just fills up the booth?

Opting-out is (pretty much) always possible, but then you look very
different from the other boothes, which might not be desirable in this
type of community events.

to change the formulation: "to stand out from the crowd"

but i see your point.

[Michael Mohn]

Am 21.03.2009 um 17:50 schrieb Alexander Reichle-Schmehl:

Hi!

Julien BLACHE schrieb:

What about a real booth? with counter and so on?

That would be best, of course, but it's often overkill or not

possible for a variety of reasons.

it's killing communication if you can't show the passers-by something

on their level (meant to be: NOT sitting on a desk and so on)

In this case, the table and chairs were provided by the organizers and

everybody had the same thing on their booth, I think. Which is often

the case.

Yes, while these Demo-Points with bar stools are very useful, they are
often simply not available.  In this case, the exhibition hall was the
foyer of the lecture hall building and Debian got some tables from
seminary rooms.

i think it is always possible to organize some sort of table like a bar-table or so used for all kinds of events and availible almost everywhere for like 10€ a day for rent...

That didn't stopped the people from other booths to stand, waiting for
visitors to come and greeting them eye to eye.

very right. but for me, it would certantly be easier, if i had a table to stand on, and not just look like another "ordinary" visitor. it will also be easier to draw attantion and to get the people ask you questions.

I wouldn't throw stools away, just put them in the background, just in
case there is a visitor, who gets something shown, which takes a bit longer.

PS:  I would also like to note, that the organizers of this event did
take care, that there are tables, banks and more or less quite rooms
available for booth personal and speakers.  So there was really no need
to sit at the booth hacking.

i think one table and a few ( no more than 4) chairs would be apropriate... as this booth looks pretty small.

bye,

Michael.

[Michael Mohn]

Am 21.03.2009 um 17:25 schrieb Meike Reichle:

Hi all

Michael Mohn said/sagte on/am 21.03.2009 15:34:

i don't now anything on how you organize those fairs and what budget

there is and so on.. i know there will probably be nothing leftover for

a nice impression.

on the other hand: when you can't do it right, maybe save the pennies

for appearance on fewer shows and do it nice there?

I don't think the problem is that we don't *know* how to do a proper
booth. Everybody who was at the CLT for Debian has been doing these kinds
of events for a couple years already.

which does obviously not hinder anybody to mess it up.

In my opinion the problem is more that keeping up a good booth requires
some discipline, both in the preparation and (probably even more) the
actual event. As Julien said, refraining from your laptop or from having
long talks with your friends instead of the users is not what we usually
do and thus requires some kind of conscious and constant effort.

that's the point. you're right.

but the layout of the booth does a lot to change the attitude of the visitor and even of the booths personal. when everything looks nice and tidy, and there is always a spokesperson availible, the whole mood in the booth changes and probably every one picks that up a lot easier, as if there are tables an laptops everywhere and it seems just like a geek-chillout.

As I see it we've in recent times become somewhat lax in this regard.
We all know perfectly well what a good booth should be like and there's
plenty places to read up on that kind of stuff. So maybe we should just
all pull ourselves together once more and put some more effort in our
exhibition presences like we used to do and thus avoid such glitches in
the future. We certainly owe it to our users and the people providing us
with the opportunities to show off our project at their events.

i like that.

if i can help. tell me. ;)

bye,

Michael.

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

as the person who became responsible for the booth 5 days ago
before the event started I feel obliged to answer here.  At first
I admit I see your point and I admit that it might not have been
the best presence of Debian at a booth.  The reasons split up
into four parts.

1. Stuffing the booth with projector and posters.

  Debian logistics failed completely.  I agree that this stuff
  should be there - but please do not blame the booth personal
  for this.  And yes, Alexander, you did not do this - but I want
  to clarify this here.  This definitely has to be enhanced.

2. Stuffing the booth with T-Shirts and other fan stuff

  Well, there was no such stuff.  I could say: Well this was not
  my fault - people from Cebit failed to send stuff to Chemnitz,
  (see above) other people who usually carry the stuff did not
  attend.  All people maintaining the booth were traveling by train.

  This was the point which was critizised by visitors.  But for
  me the lack of a projector and some poster - perhaps about the
  new features of Lenny (hey, this was the first booth I was
  stuffing where not a single person asked: When will Debian
  be released?) would have done a perfect job.

  Thinking twice about the lack of T-Shirts and Co. compared to
  the lack of a projector I started wondering whether the main
  feature of a booth are really T-Shirts and stuff. You can buy
  this at several places for the same price with much larger
  collections and you are even served by professional sellers.
  I admit - I'm not a professional seller of T-Shirts and other
  things - I'm a computer expert.

  I always stick to the rule: Do those things you are good in.
  Perhaps that's the reason why I'm in Debian.  If the main
  issue to handle a Debian booth is to sell advertising for
  Debian I suggest (and I nearly seem to be in one line with
  other suggestions of this thread but I'm intentionally
  overstretching the suggestion) to employ some nice looking
  girls (sorry, no offence against women here - but that's what
  I observe at Cebit - one reason why I do not visit such fairs
  any more) who are handing out some sweets and sell T-Shirts.
  There is no reason for developers to spend their time to
  have smalltalk with people.

  If you ask me - I would stop selling stuff at a booth at
  all - so the situation was not intended, but after all I
  liked it.  And yes, I know that this is one feature visitors
  expect from a booth - but isn't Debian something that gives
  you *more* than you expect?  We even provide knowledge and
  real help at the booth (now coming to the next point).

3. Attention to visitors.

  I agree that it looks friendlier if you show visitors your
  face.  Perhaps we did not the best considering the photos
  you linked to.

  I have to say that I asked every visitor close to the booth
  whether we can be of any help.  Other booth stuff did so
  as well.  Several people seemed to not want any help - just
  looking.  I do not see a main difference for people who
  are "just looking" if they see busy people working on
  Debian stuff.

  I was able to help several visitors by talking to them
  directly and we were able to solve several problems. As a
  sidenote we helped people of Debian child distributions
  and fixed problems of distributors which were running boothes
  you might regard as an example for a proper Debian booth.

  So I think that those visitors who had real problems or
  asked serious questions were served properly.  Alexander
  you mentioned that people contacted you because they did
  not recognised the Debian booth.  This sounds a bit strange.
  I admit that according to item 1 we were not as visible as I
  wanted us to be - but hey asking on the Sidux booth for
  Debian people or reading the booth map would have most
  probably working strategies - even if you might have addressed
  people to our booth if you was busy with other stuff might
  have been an option.

  So in the sense of item 2.: Do we want to show friendly
  faces or do we want to provide help to those who need.
  Do we want to just copy "established" methods to run a
  booth as we know it from professional fairs?  If the answer
  is "Yes, we try to run boothes in what is called professional
  manner" I wonder whether our volunteers regard this as enough
  fun for them to spend a weekend off from home.  The Debian
  project just attracts people addictive to hacking while
  beeing helpful to people who have problems and are able
  to report them (astonishing enough reportbug seems to be
  a quite hidden feature for our users - and several visitors
  I talked to did not know it).

  I guess people might consider words like this as arrogant,
  and I'm a big friend of enhancing personal skills and learn
  some softskills to work better on a booth.  But I'm afraid
  we will not find enough volunteers to work on a booth if
  we require them to work as if it would be a professional
  booth on a commercial fair.  At least I would like to draw
  a line between fairs like Cebit and probably LinuxTag
  which tends in this professional direction since several
  years and events where "you want to meet the hackers".

  If you want me to have less fun than I might like to have you
  will probably find me next year in "Praxis Dr. Tux" (were I
  applied for before I took over the booth job in replacement for
  somebody who were not able to attend) or at a different place
  than the booth.  I love CLT because it gives a chance for both
  things: Meeting visitors *and* get some stuff with Debian people
  done.  Getting things done is perfectly in the interest of
  people attending the event and if you make sure that people
  who need help really get help IMHO everything is fine.
  I would assess that we solved this job.

4. Handing over CDs/DVDs

  Besides the fact that we had no own CDs (see above logistics
  problem) we got a bunch of Lenny CD1 from Sidux people (thanks
  to them).  But I admit I'm reluctant to just throw them away.
  It does not serve the environment if you hand over random
  people any CD and they feed their dustbin two weeks later
  with this.

  If I hand over a CD I always ask people for what purpose they
  want to use it.  Call me penetrant but I just want to know
  my users better.  Most people start mumbling well, I tried
  Distro A, B and perhaps C but "they were not stable enough"?
  Hmm, what does this mean "not stable enough".  Honestly I
  do not think that our "competitors" are that bad these days
  that Joey Randomuser has serious stability problems.  So
  I asked "What *exactly* happened" with distribution A, B or
  C and did you reported this problem to them?  This question
  reveals quickly the "distribution hopper".

  If you ask me we should not waste those persons time and serve
  him just another CD which takes him two weeks time to notice
  "ahh, Debian is not stable enough" and switches to dist E.
  I think we should rather tell them to report bugs and try to
  stick to things he just spended some time to learn it to know.
  If we might loose a potential Debian user to Fedora or Ubuntu
  because I told him to try to find the real problem instead of
  just blaming his distribution about "not stable enough" this
  is pefectly fine for me.  I want to spread Free Software and
  I can not bear uneducated people who just claim "dist A, B
  or C" are bad - these distros are not bad.  People just try to
  cover their own failure in not understanding the Free Software
  principle.  Make them understand this principle finally helps
  Debian as well and if we are *really* the best distribution
  those people will sooner or later come to us anyway - but we
  will not reach this goal by handing over random people Debian
  install media without any question.

  So please do not simply serve your visitors wish to any
  random CD but try to educate them Free Software principles
  when they have some missconception about it.

In short: The Debian project did not made the best job at CLT
his year but I wonder whether it is rectified to only blame the
booth people for this.  And we should think twice whether we
should really try to copy "professional booth" behaviour for
events like this.

Kind regards

        Andreas.

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http://fam-tille.de


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[Julien BLACHE]

Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

Hi Andreas,

>  There is no reason for developers to spend their time to
>  have smalltalk with people.

Those two lines really sum up your whole mail: you are way off.

Smalltalk is exactly what we're doing in this kind of
exhibitions. That's called "meeting the community", the other one, the
*users* community. If you're not interested in that, I suggest you
stick to high-profile technical conferences and don't run a booth
again.

Most people come to those exhibitions to have a look at this Linux
thing and ask basic questions, sometimes even stupid questions. We
answer them, show them our distro, walk them through some demos. If
they're interested, they'll want to take a CD/DVD (or a LiveCD) home
to try it out on their own.

Even on Solutions Linux, which is a professional exhibition, those are
the people we see most at our booth.

Enthusiasts make up for a small part of the people we get to see, and
they come see us for a variety of reasons: saying hello, meeting the
developers of their favorite distributions, giving some feedback on
stuff they've done, telling us about Debian installations we couldn't
even dream of, getting their laptop fixed, getting some help on
packaging something, ...

That's what these exhibitions are for.

I appreciate that you gave some of your time to man a booth at an
exhibition, but really, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it again.

JB.

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[Jan Wagner-4]

Hi Julien,

as I'm also one of the guys running the booth (on saturday), I've to add some
to your mail.

I completly ack, that the booth _this year_ was far away from being perfect.
Most reasons are already targeted. Just a short side note ... all people
attending this year where also there in the last years, where it seems to be
much better ... so ... it may not just be a problem of the people running the
booth.

On Sunday 22 March 2009, Julien BLACHE wrote:

> Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
> >  There is no reason for developers to spend their time to
> >  have smalltalk with people.
>
> Those two lines really sum up your whole mail: you are way off.
>
> Smalltalk is exactly what we're doing in this kind of
> exhibitions. That's called "meeting the community", the other one, the
> *users* community. If you're not interested in that, I suggest you
> stick to high-profile technical conferences and don't run a booth
> again.

Knowing Andreas for a while and seeing how he is communicating every year at
CLT, you where using "smalltalk" in different understandings.

> Most people come to those exhibitions to have a look at this Linux
> thing and ask basic questions, sometimes even stupid questions. We
> answer them, show them our distro, walk them through some demos. If
> they're interested, they'll want to take a CD/DVD (or a LiveCD) home
> to try it out on their own.

Thats exactly what Andreas is doing there ... If you did read his mail
carefully, he is asking people, why they has the need for an installation
medium and is trying to find out, if they are really interested. That is
exactly what you define as "smalltalk".

> I appreciate that you gave some of your time to man a booth at an
> exhibition, but really, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it again.

Judging from time spending with Andreas there, he stated many times, that he
loves especially this event and even this was also my feeling.
Even if he is working on a problem on his laptop, which assumedly was raised
by a visitor, he is always so mindfull to recognize people needing help
standing beside/in from of the booth.

With kind regards, Jan.
--
Never write mail to <waja@...>, you have been warned!
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[Jan Wagner-4]

Hi Andreas,

On Sunday 22 March 2009, Andreas Tille wrote:
> 2. Stuffing the booth with T-Shirts and other fan stuff
>
>   Well, there was no such stuff.  I could say: Well this was not
>   my fault - people from Cebit failed to send stuff to Chemnitz,
>   (see above) other people who usually carry the stuff did not
>   attend.  All people maintaining the booth were traveling by train.

thats not completely, I was traveling by car, but the timeframe to organize
sending stuff to me was too short, when the problem with stuff pops up. So in
the end, the problem was still present.

>   Thinking twice about the lack of T-Shirts and Co. compared to
>   the lack of a projector I started wondering whether the main
>   feature of a booth are really T-Shirts and stuff. You can buy
>   this at several places for the same price with much larger
>   collections and you are even served by professional sellers.
>   I admit - I'm not a professional seller of T-Shirts and other
>   things - I'm a computer expert.
[...]
>   If you ask me - I would stop selling stuff at a booth at
>   all - so the situation was not intended, but after all I
>   liked it.  And yes, I know that this is one feature visitors
>   expect from a booth - but isn't Debian something that gives
>   you *more* than you expect?  We even provide knowledge and
>   real help at the booth (now coming to the next point).

I think users want to express their connection to our project. Selling
posters/stickers/t-shirt (to get money) should not be the target, but serving
our users/contributers some ways to express themself, should be a good reason
to offer such things.

Just my 2 EUR-Cent, Jan.
--
Never write mail to <waja@...>, you have been warned!
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[Axel Beckert]

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 02:50:57PM +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote:
> So, what am I talking about? Well, it's just that I don't think, that we
> did a very good job. Look for example at [1], where someone mistook the
> booth of the sidux project for our own. [...[
>
> 1: http://gallery.kickino.org/chemnitzer_linux_tage/chemnitzer_linux_tage_2009/img_0397.jpg.html

Just talked with Sebastian (kickino) on IRC after I read this
paragraph.

He seemed not having mistaken the Sidux booth for the Debian booth at
the fair. He just saw the "Debian logo" when writing the captions for
his pictures in the gallery:

10:44:42 <kickino> Ich wusste es nicht besser :(
10:45:19 <kickino> Hab' beim Durchschauen der Bilder hab' ich halt nur
                   das Debian-Logo gesehen und deshalb die
                   Beschriftung so gewählt.

So I would say this example is mostly based on the closeness of Sidux'
logo to the Debian Swirl (plus perhaps not having in mind the exact
appearances of the booths when labelling the photos) and not on the
appearance of the Debian booth itself.

Nevertheless I agree with Tolimar that Debian can do better and also
has done much better in the past, at CLT and elsewhere.

BTW, this case reminds me that although there was and still is a lot
of activity in the repositories around the Lenny release and Sid
unfreeze, I saw a lot of Debian inactivity in real life recently, e.g.
only four (!) Lenny release parties worldwide [2] compared to 29 Etch
release parties [3] two years ago. And on the Swiss Lenny release
party were only five people compared to about 20-30 people at the Etch
release party. So that improvised CLT booth somehow fits in there.

  [2] http://wiki.debian.org/ReleasePartyLenny
  [3] http://wiki.debian.org/ReleasePartyEtch

I don't see this as Debian going down in general (in contrary!), but I
slightly wonder what the reason for this real life inactivity could
be. The economical regression? People ony doing what they care most
about (releases, packages and flame wars on d-d@...? ;-)? Or can
Debian developers build packages and releases but not partying during
hibernation -- and it's mostly a winter vs. early summer thing?

                Regards, Axel
--
Axel Beckert - abe@..., abe@... - http://noone.org/abe/


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[Michael Mohn]

Am 22.03.2009 um 11:26 schrieb Jan Wagner:

Hi Julien,

as I'm also one of the guys running the booth (on saturday), I've to add some
to your mail.

I completly ack, that the booth _this year_ was far away from being perfect.
Most reasons are already targeted. Just a short side note ... all people
attending this year where also there in the last years, where it seems to be
much better ... so ... it may not just be a problem of the people running the
booth.

i think we all should stop pointing fingers at anyone and start asking and answering the one question:

"how can I contribute to make it even better the next event?"

how about that?

bye,

Michael.

On Sunday 22 March 2009, Julien BLACHE wrote:

Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

There is no reason for developers to spend their time to

have smalltalk with people.

Those two lines really sum up your whole mail: you are way off.

Smalltalk is exactly what we're doing in this kind of

exhibitions. That's called "meeting the community", the other one, the

*users* community. If you're not interested in that, I suggest you

stick to high-profile technical conferences and don't run a booth

again.

Knowing Andreas for a while and seeing how he is communicating every year at
CLT, you where using "smalltalk" in different understandings.

Most people come to those exhibitions to have a look at this Linux

thing and ask basic questions, sometimes even stupid questions. We

answer them, show them our distro, walk them through some demos. If

they're interested, they'll want to take a CD/DVD (or a LiveCD) home

to try it out on their own.

Thats exactly what Andreas is doing there ... If you did read his mail
carefully, he is asking people, why they has the need for an installation
medium and is trying to find out, if they are really interested. That is
exactly what you define as "smalltalk".

I appreciate that you gave some of your time to man a booth at an

exhibition, but really, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it again.

Judging from time spending with Andreas there, he stated many times, that he
loves especially this event and even this was also my feeling.
Even if he is working on a problem on his laptop, which assumedly was raised
by a visitor, he is always so mindfull to recognize people needing help
standing beside/in from of the booth.

With kind regards, Jan.
--
Never write mail to <waja@...>, you have been warned!
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GIT d-- s+: a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W+++ N+++ o++ K++ w--- O M V- PS PE
Y++ PGP++ t-- 5 X R tv- b+ DI- D++ G++ e++ h-- r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

[Michael Mohn]

Am 22.03.2009 um 12:01 schrieb Axel Beckert:

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 02:50:57PM +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote:

So, what am I talking about? Well, it's just that I don't think, that we

did a very good job. Look for example at [1], where someone mistook the

booth of the sidux project for our own. [...[

1: http://gallery.kickino.org/chemnitzer_linux_tage/chemnitzer_linux_tage_2009/img_0397.jpg.html

Just talked with Sebastian (kickino) on IRC after I read this
paragraph.

He seemed not having mistaken the Sidux booth for the Debian booth at
the fair. He just saw the "Debian logo" when writing the captions for
his pictures in the gallery:

10:44:42 <kickino> Ich wusste es nicht besser :(
10:45:19 <kickino> Hab' beim Durchschauen der Bilder hab' ich halt nur
  das Debian-Logo gesehen und deshalb die
  Beschriftung so gewählt.

Imagine this on a comercial linux-fair. one would never mistaken the novell booth for the redhat-booth.

as the lesson: there always must be a prominent logo and a sign stating what exactly that logo means (for anyone new).

thats not hard to do and should always be possible. (talking of the mentioned logistics problem)

bye,

Michael.

[Michael Mohn]

Am 22.03.2009 um 09:34 schrieb Andreas Tille:

Hi,

as the person who became responsible for the booth 5 days ago
before the event started I feel obliged to answer here.  At first
I admit I see your point and I admit that it might not have been
the best presence of Debian at a booth.  The reasons split up
into four parts.

there were only 5 days pre-flight? why? is such an event not sheduled at least a year before it takes place?

thats hard. 

1. Stuffing the booth with projector and posters.

2. Stuffing the booth with T-Shirts and other fan stuff

3. Attention to visitors.

4. Handing over CDs/DVDs

In short: The Debian project did not made the best job at CLT his year but I wonder whether it is rectified to only blame the
booth people for this.  And we should think twice whether we
should really try to copy "professional booth" behaviour for
events like this.

i think it is not about copying everything. but instead everyone should learn their part. it's all about communication. and a communication friendly environment.

[Michael Mohn]

Am 22.03.2009 um 10:21 schrieb Julien BLACHE:

Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

Hi Andreas,

There is no reason for developers to spend their time to

have smalltalk with people.

Those two lines really sum up your whole mail: you are way off.

Smalltalk is exactly what we're doing in this kind of
exhibitions. That's called "meeting the community", the other one, the
*users* community. If you're not interested in that, I suggest you
stick to high-profile technical conferences and don't run a booth
again.

Most people come to those exhibitions to have a look at this Linux
thing and ask basic questions, sometimes even stupid questions. We
answer them, show them our distro, walk them through some demos. If
they're interested, they'll want to take a CD/DVD (or a LiveCD) home
to try it out on their own.

Even on Solutions Linux, which is a professional exhibition, those are
the people we see most at our booth.

Enthusiasts make up for a small part of the people we get to see, and
they come see us for a variety of reasons: saying hello, meeting the
developers of their favorite distributions, giving some feedback on
stuff they've done, telling us about Debian installations we couldn't
even dream of, getting their laptop fixed, getting some help on
packaging something, ...

That's what these exhibitions are for.

I appreciate that you gave some of your time to man a booth at an
exhibition, but really, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it again.

i completely agree.

that should be, what is done on a fair. a lot of community work.

get the people to remember you (and the project) as friedly, helpful and aware of the problems and so on.

bye,

Michael.