Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/28 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>:
>> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>
>>> Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was.
>>> The
>>> dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.
>
>> I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR
>> list.
>
>
> It used to be a place to send unblock requests. These then went to
> unblock-en-l, which is now all but moribund.
>
>
> - d.
>

Not really, I've been attending to it and have either unblocked or
created accounts for about 50 people just this month.

Fred



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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>:

>> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>>> Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was.
>>> The
>>> dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.
>>
>> I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR
>> list.
>>
>
> It is a general purpose list to discuss any matter regarding the English
> Wikipedia, including dispute resolution. About the only thing that will
> get you in real trouble is trying to discuss the content of an article,
> which get a "to the talk page" response.

DR in the abstract is fine (that's what we're talking about now), but
bringing up specific disputes usually results in being told to take it
to the appropriate DR forum, whether they are content disputes or user
conduct disputes or any other kind of dispute (except possibly policy
disputes).

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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> Ah, but you aren't abusing logic by ignoring the fact that each
>> language has
>> its own list anyway are you? My point dealt with the historical usage
>> of
>> wikipedia-l as the *only mailing list, and by
>> default/convention/necessity/genius was an international mailing list.
>> It
>> worked out pretty well, didn't it?
>
> I'm not sure I was subscribed to it that long ago... Was there ever a
> significant number of emails in languages other than English?
>

No

Fred



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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>wrote:

> > It used to be a place to send unblock requests. These then went to
> > unblock-en-l, which is now all but moribund.
> >
> > - d.
>
> Not really, I've been attending to it and have either unblocked or
> created accounts for about 50 people just this month.
>

Hm. I guess its a good thing for blocked people that David isn't the one
watching that list.

-Stevertigo
Excuse me: "Users." Not "people."
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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> > Ah, but you aren't abusing logic by ignoring the fact that each language
> has
> > its own list anyway are you? My point dealt with the historical usage of
> > wikipedia-l as the *only mailing list, and by
> > default/convention/necessity/genius was an international mailing list. It
> > worked out pretty well, didn't it?
>
> I'm not sure I was subscribed to it that long ago... Was there ever a
> significant number of emails in languages other than English?
>

No
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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> > Ah, but you aren't abusing logic by ignoring the fact that each language
>> has
>> > its own list anyway are you? My point dealt with the historical usage of
>> > wikipedia-l as the *only mailing list, and by
>> > default/convention/necessity/genius was an international mailing list. It
>> > worked out pretty well, didn't it?
>>
>> I'm not sure I was subscribed to it that long ago... Was there ever a
>> significant number of emails in languages other than English?
>>
>
> No

So what was your point?

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Emily Monroe <bluecaliocean@...> wrote:

> I like formality--plus I tend not to use idioms online. Even in an
> English forum, we'll have people who don't read English well, or who
> can't interpret metamorphic speech very well.
>

Excellent points.

Just a little nitpick: "metamorphic" is not used in linguistics - the
lingustic term is "morphological," but I understand you probably mean
"idiomatic" or 'conceptually amorphous.' Interesting point, but in reality
we just use the terms "informal," "idiomatic" or "colloquial"
(language/speech) to deal with expressions that are not "formal," and thus
more direct.

> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the
> terms "too much" and "can happen"?

> What I've already said, actually.


I read everything you've written here and didn't catch any specifics. That's
why I asked.


> I've read a
> little in the arbcom archives, and know people sometimes won't
> participate in their own RfC, or won't comply with whatever consensus
> there is (that was achieved through DR). If people won't participate/
> cooperate with something most definitely *on wiki*, why would they
> participate on something that talks about Wikipedia?
>

Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?

-Stevertigo

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant." - Louis Brandeis
"Here comes the sun." - George Harrison
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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> > No
>

> So what was your point?
>

Erm, I was answering.. your question.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:13 PM, stevertigo <stvrtg@...> wrote:

> Interesting point, but in reality we just use the terms "informal,"
> "idiomatic" or "colloquial" (language/speech) to deal with expressions that
> are not "formal," and thus more direct.
>

Correction: "..not "formal" or "direct."

-Stevertigo
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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> > No
>>
>
>> So what was your point?
>>
>
> Erm, I was answering.. your question.

No, before that. You mentioned wikipedia-l in reference to
multilingual lists being a success but wikipedia-l is neither
multilingual nor a success, so I fail to see your point.

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> No, before that. You mentioned wikipedia-l in reference to
> multilingual lists being a success but wikipedia-l is neither
> multilingual nor a success, so I fail to see your point.
>

You definition of "success" is admirably vague. Does "America" have to
survive forever to be a "success" in promoting human freedom (such that
there eventually be no more need for a particular nation called the "U.S.A")
?  The defunct-ness of a thing is not an indication of its failure. Take
your ancestors for example.

And yes, it was originally an international mailing list, IIRC, albeit there
were few international wikis then, few people used it for such, wrote in
English anyway, and in any case IIRC the first fork from wikipedia-l was
en-l largely to separate the former for global wiki usage.

-Stevertigo
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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> No, before that. You mentioned wikipedia-l in reference to
>> multilingual lists being a success but wikipedia-l is neither
>> multilingual nor a success, so I fail to see your point.
>>
>
> You definition of "success" is admirably vague. Does "America" have to
> survive forever to be a "success" in promoting human freedom (such that
> there eventually be no more need for a particular nation called the "U.S.A")
> ?  The defunct-ness of a thing is not an indication of its failure. Take
> your ancestors for example.

I wasn't aware that was the stated goal of the USA, but that's not
really relevant. Wikipedia-l didn't cease to be needed, it was
replaced because it wasn't up to the job.

> And yes, it was originally an international mailing list, IIRC, albeit there
> were few international wikis then, few people used it for such, wrote in
> English anyway, and in any case IIRC the first fork from wikipedia-l was
> en-l largely to separate the former for global wiki usage.

Exactly, they wrote in English because multilingual mailing lists don't work.

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[Carcharoth]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM, stevertigo<stvrtg@...> wrote:

<snip>

> Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
> participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?

If you catch us in a good mood, maybe. :-)

[I'm currently one of those arbitrators, if that's a bit cryptic for some.]

More seriously, if you find the right venue and present a good case
that something needs discussion or clarification, even after a case is
closed, you stand a good chance of getting a reasonable level of
responses eventually. The main problem, as those who are current
arbitrators and those who were former arbitrators, should be able to
attest, is time and the amount of stuff to deal with. Some of it is
pure overload, other bits are time-management (some of us deal with
simple or interesting stuff first, before tackling the difficult stuff
- it's human nature really).

One of the things that has been suggested, is reviews of cases after
the dust has settled. Not returning to the old discussions, but seeing
how effective the remedies have been, and looking at the enforcement
of cases, and whether the articles involved (if the case involved
articles) have improved at all. Another aspect of review would be
whether any of the policy-related stuff suggested by ArbCom principles
would gain community consensus  to be incorporated into polices.
Technically, the principles should be interpreting existing policies,
but sometimes ArbCom does strongly suggest that change is needed in a
certain area. Whether that happens or not, as Fred points out, depends
on the resulting community discussions. In some cases, though, those
community discussions don't actually take place, and six-month reviews
could point this out.

Eh. I seem to have six-month reviews on the brain for some reason.

Carcharoth

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Carcharoth <carcharothwp@...>wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM, stevertigo<stvrtg@...> wrote:
> > Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't participate much in
> openly
>
> discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?
>
> If you catch us in a good mood, maybe. :-)
>

Hm. If Arbcom mood is the impeding issue, then anything the community can do
to mitigate Arbcom caseload is naturally the first solution. Beyond that,
issues related to how Arbcom members deal with stress, have to change their
editing patterns, have to reconceptualize how they interact with people,
etc. may require some kind of closed support group. I would not object even
proposals for Wikimedia to hire cousellors for our Arbcom members from each
of our various language wikis.

[I'm currently one of those arbitrators, if that's a bit cryptic for some.]
>

Identifying yourself as an Arbcom member might be appropriate. Something
like "User:Carcharoth (Arbcom, Jan. 2009 - Dec. 2010, inactive)" would work.

More seriously, if you find the right venue and present a good case
> that something needs discussion or clarification, even after a case is
> closed, you stand a good chance of getting a reasonable level of
> responses eventually.


Hm. By "right venue" do you mean arbcom-l or some IRC? Wouldn't a "dispute
resolution" mailing list work well for this purpose?


> The main problem, as those who are current
> arbitrators and those who were former arbitrators, should be able to
> attest, is time and the amount of stuff to deal with. Some of it is
> pure overload, other bits are time-management (some of us deal with
> simple or interesting stuff first, before tackling the difficult stuff
> - it's human nature really).
>

Hm. Issues that we can deal with on res-l, and perhaps we can even find
solutions for them. I have ideas for mitigating caseload, as I'm sure do you
and others. The main issue in that aspect is just dealing with them. A
closed list is not the place for brainstorming.

One of the things that has been suggested, is reviews of cases after
> the dust has settled. Not returning to the old discussions, but seeing
> how effective the remedies have been, and looking at the enforcement
> of cases, and whether the articles involved (if the case involved
> articles) have improved at all.


Good points, though "returning to the old discussions" implies that there
actually were "discussions," and that by being "old" they were also not
currently relevant. There are certain very old things that remain relevant,
despite what anyone says about their age. I'm sure this applies in the
context of Arbcom case arguments as well.

Another aspect of review would be
> whether any of the policy-related stuff suggested by ArbCom principles
> would gain community consensus  to be incorporated into polices.
>
Technically, the principles should be interpreting existing policies,
>
but sometimes ArbCom does strongly suggest that change is needed in a
> certain area.


That's like finding that a house is on fire, and at the same time telling
the fire department that putting it out is optional, and subject to only
whims - whims that might mathematically resemble common housecat herding
patterns.

Whether that happens or not, as Fred points out, depends
> on the resulting community discussions.


Isn't voting still evil?

Just like IAR is still a "pillar" of "principle?"


> In some cases, though, those
> community discussions don't actually take place, and six-month reviews
> could point this out.
>

Six months is a long time. We should try living in the real world, instead
of a shell.

-Stevertigo
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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Thomas Dalton
>> <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>>
>>> > No
>>>
>>
>>> So what was your point?
>>>
>>
>> Erm, I was answering.. your question.
>
> No, before that. You mentioned wikipedia-l in reference to
> multilingual lists being a success but wikipedia-l is neither
> multilingual nor a success, so I fail to see your point.
>

Wikipedia-l is not a failure, just not used much any more.

Fred



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[Fred Bauder-2]

>
> Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
> participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?
>
> -Stevertigo
>

Not really, doing the work is hard enough. Additional communication is on
top of that. If decisions are made privately, it would have to be copied
over again to make them public. The only alternative is to engage in open
discussion on the wiki. They can talk about why they don't do that.

Fred



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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...> wrote:

> > Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
> > participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?
>
> Not really, doing the work is hard enough. Additional communication is on
> top of that. If decisions are made privately, it would have to be copied
> over again to make them public. The only alternative is to engage in open
> discussion on the wiki. They can talk about why they don't do that.
>

Well it was Erik who finally convinced me of the superiority of open-sourced
over closed-source technology. Open-source software allows for a greater
degree of freedom of movement, which itself has a synergistic relationship
with greater social freedom concepts in general.

So I agree with your implied meaning, that in a very short amount of time,
we can make it so that no one has to buy or else deal with Microsoft's
products at all.

-Stevertigo
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[Emily Monroe]

> Just a little nitpick: "metamorphic" is not used in linguistics - the
> lingustic term is "morphological," but I understand you probably mean
> "idiomatic" or 'conceptually amorphous.'

I meant slang words, idioms, etc. Is that what you're talking about?

> I read everything you've written here and didn't catch any  
> specifics. That's
> why I asked.

Maybe I can't be more specific, due to inexperience. That sounds like  
an excuse, but still, it's the truth.

Emily
On Jun 28, 2009, at 2:13 PM, stevertigo wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Emily Monroe  
> <bluecaliocean@...> wrote:
>
>> I like formality--plus I tend not to use idioms online. Even in an
>> English forum, we'll have people who don't read English well, or who
>> can't interpret metamorphic speech very well.
>>
>
> Excellent points.
>
> Just a little nitpick: "metamorphic" is not used in linguistics - the
> lingustic term is "morphological," but I understand you probably mean
> "idiomatic" or 'conceptually amorphous.' Interesting point, but in  
> reality
> we just use the terms "informal," "idiomatic" or "colloquial"
> (language/speech) to deal with expressions that are not "formal,"  
> and thus
> more direct.
>
>> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the
>> terms "too much" and "can happen"?
>
>> What I've already said, actually.
>
>
> I read everything you've written here and didn't catch any  
> specifics. That's
> why I asked.
>
>
>> I've read a
>> little in the arbcom archives, and know people sometimes won't
>> participate in their own RfC, or won't comply with whatever consensus
>> there is (that was achieved through DR). If people won't participate/
>> cooperate with something most definitely *on wiki*, why would they
>> participate on something that talks about Wikipedia?
>>
>
> Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
> participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?
>
> -Stevertigo
>
> "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." - Louis Brandeis
> "Here comes the sun." - George Harrison
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@...
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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[Fred Bauder-2]

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>
> wrote:
>
>> > Good point, Emily. Ironically enough though, Arbcom itself doesn't
>> > participate much in openly discussing its cases. Strange isn't it?
>>
>> Not really, doing the work is hard enough. Additional communication is
>> on
>> top of that. If decisions are made privately, it would have to be
>> copied
>> over again to make them public. The only alternative is to engage in
>> open
>> discussion on the wiki. They can talk about why they don't do that.
>>
>
> Well it was Erik who finally convinced me of the superiority of
> open-sourced
> over closed-source technology. Open-source software allows for a greater
> degree of freedom of movement, which itself has a synergistic
> relationship
> with greater social freedom concepts in general.
>
> So I agree with your implied meaning, that in a very short amount of
> time,
> we can make it so that no one has to buy or else deal with Microsoft's
> products at all.
>
> -Stevertigo
>

And abandon the star chamber, absolutely not!

Fred


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