Dispute resolution mailing list

[Risker]

2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...
> >wrote:
>
> > 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> >
>
>
> > > You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
> > there
> > > we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
> > appliances.
> > > :-)
> >
> > That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
> > and "fix".
>
>
> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>
> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:" Every
> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was 5.7
> years ago.
> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> "convention" is not a "system."
>
> -Stevertigo
>

It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
to solve.

Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we hear
at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
content.

Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the person(s)
whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
join the mailing list?

Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
happens when only one party joins the mailing list?

Just some thoughts.

Risker
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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...> wrote:

> > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
> >
> > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
> > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
> > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
> > life time constraints.
> >
> > Two, discussion.
> >
> > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
> > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
> > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
> > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
> > bandwidth...
>
> I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
>

I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be populated
either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe not
a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list first
though.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Risker <risker.wp@...> wrote:

> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
> to solve.
>

Great comments, Risker.

For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
things because they are experimental or synergistic.

Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
> content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we hear
> at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
> content.
>

Excellent point. In a certain way, it seems that there must be some
limitation upon what depth content disputes may be discussed on list. In
another respect, a certain integration between talk page and list discussion
may help to 1) abstract conflicts from being localized to unseen talk pages,
and 2) bring abstract general-interest attention to specific talk pages.  In
reality, this is the way wikien-l used to work, before it got all
abstractified and focused exclusively on talking about what newspapers are
saying about us.

Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
> current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
> hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the person(s)
> whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
> join the mailing list?
>

Indeed, the list should not replace anything else. Rather it should give
people an eagle-eye view of disputes, and from this vantage this offers a
certain extra dimension to using RFC's, etc.

Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
> happens when only one party joins the mailing list?
>

Very good point. Again, as far as specific conflicts go, it would be more of
an announce list. As far as general discussion goes, well this aspect at
least to my mind is quite necessary, as general discussion on talk pages is
not useful to anyone.

-Stevertigo
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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>
>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> >
>>
>>
>> > > You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
>> and
>> > there
>> > > we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
>> > appliances.
>> > > :-)
>> >
>> > That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of
>> "broke"
>> > and "fix".
>>
>>
>> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>>
>> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:"
>> Every
>> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was
>> 5.7
>> years ago.
>> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
>> "convention" is not a "system."
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>>
>
> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be
> intended
> to solve.
>
> Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
> content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we
> hear
> at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
> content.
>
> Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
> current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
> hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the
> person(s)
> whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
> join the mailing list?
>
> Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
> happens when only one party joins the mailing list?
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Risker
>

It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.

Fred



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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>:
> It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
> not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.

That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?

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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Risker <risker.wp@...> wrote:
>
>> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
>> to solve.
>>
>
> Great comments, Risker.
>
> For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
> things because they are experimental or synergistic.

Ok, you may not want to solve a problem, but presumably you want to
achieve something. What is your goal?

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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>> 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>>> You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
>>> there
>>> we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
>>> appliances.
>> That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
>> and "fix".
> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"

Yes. A logical argument generally starts by defining some terms and
stating a few axioms and following logical implications from those.

> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:" Every
> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was 5.7
> years ago.
> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> "convention" is not a "system."

I'm guessing you don't mean "edit conflict" as in when two people edit
the same page at the same time? You mean "edit *war*", yes? I don't
see why an old system is necessarily a bad one and you haven't
explained how your system would be better than the current one (which
is far more than just conventions, we have very clear policy on DR).

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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:


> 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>

> For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
> > things because they are experimental or synergistic.
>
> Ok, you may not want to solve a problem, but presumably you want to
> achieve something. What is your goal?


 My goal is total and complete synergy.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>:
> > It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
> > not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.
>
> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?


I don't see Fred's ideas or insights as being particularly in conflict with
the idea I proposed.
In fact, as I proposed it, I didn't get into any particular details. I
simply assumed that if people
agreed on the general scope, they could also agree on the scope such a list
might have.

Indeed, someone who might be interested in getting help for a particular
edit conflict and might want to drop a note to the mailing list might like
not getting their head bitten off by someone on this one.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> > Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>
> Yes. A logical argument generally starts by defining some terms and
> stating a few axioms and following logical implications from those.
>

My arguments tend to be more rational than "logical."

> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:"
> Every
> > edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was
> 5.7
> > years ago.
> > You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> > "convention" is not a "system."
>
> I'm guessing you don't mean "edit conflict" as in when two people edit
> the same page at the same time? You mean "edit *war*", yes? I don't
> see why an old system is necessarily a bad one and you haven't
> explained how your system would be better than the current one (which
> is far more than just conventions, we have very clear policy on DR).
>

Not all "conflicts" rise to the level of "wars."  So not all edit conflicts
are "edit wars." The latter term has implications that transcend most
"conflicts between editors" or "editorial conflicts."

The technical usage of "edit conflict" to mean a state wherein a session has
been interrupted by changes by another user, in a certain way usurps the
canonical (common English) usage of the word "conflict" for a technical
purpose.  And even in technical context, its a bit of an outdated misnomer:

* Outdated, because since  section editing was implemented five years ago,
they rarely happen.
* Misnomer, because those "conflicts" are technical and not "edit"-orial,
and anyway are not so much "conflicts" as they are "interrupts." (Note that
other wiki software have these handled via simple usage of session lockouts.
Not to say that such would work for us, though).

If its got a simple technical solution, its probably not the "conflict" we
are talking about. This should correct not just your terminology, but our
general conventional misuse which I too once or twice have been a party to.
Its been a while since Ive had an "edit interrupt" myself.  Edit conflicts
(not "wars") however occur hourly. :-)

-Stevertigo
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[Risker]

2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>
> wrote:
>
> > > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
> > >
> > > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
> > > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
> > > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
> > > life time constraints.
> > >
> > > Two, discussion.
> > >
> > > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
> > > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
> > > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
> > > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
> > > bandwidth...
> >
> > I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
> >
>
> I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
> George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be populated
> either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe not
> a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list first
> though.
>
> -Stevertigo
> _______________________________________________
>

Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups and
see how many people sign up?

Risker
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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Risker <risker.wp@...> wrote:

>
> Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
> list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups
> and
> see how many people sign up?
>
>
Risker, from experience, I know what you say to be not true. I remember
Brion starting several language mailing lists in about 10 minutes with
nothing more than a casual request on intlwiki-l.

Even you and Thomas who have expressed several critical concerns and
questions, do not outright state your opposition to such a lists' creation.
If you are receiving transmissions that indiate other concerns, please list
those concerns along with their sources here, so we can deal with those.

-Stevertigo
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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>
>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
>> > >
>> > > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute
>> resolution
>> > > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
>> > > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
>> > > life time constraints.
>> > >
>> > > Two, discussion.
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
>> > > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.
>> I
>> > > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
>> > > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
>> > > bandwidth...
>> >
>> > I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
>> >
>>
>> I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
>> George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be
>> populated
>> either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe
>> not
>> a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list
>> first
>> though.
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
> Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
> list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups
> and
> see how many people sign up?
>
> Risker
>

It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
party.

Fred



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[Fred Bauder-2]

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton
> <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>:
>> > It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It
>> would
>> > not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to
>> it.
>>
>> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
>> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
>> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
>> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?
>
>
> I don't see Fred's ideas or insights as being particularly in conflict
> with
> the idea I proposed.
> In fact, as I proposed it, I didn't get into any particular details. I
> simply assumed that if people
> agreed on the general scope, they could also agree on the scope such a
> list
> might have.
>
> Indeed, someone who might be interested in getting help for a particular
> edit conflict and might want to drop a note to the mailing list might
> like
> not getting their head bitten off by someone on this one.
>
> -Stevertigo
>

Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.

Fred



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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>:
>> It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
>> not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.
>
> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?
>

I think one goal might be to provide a menu which empowered people to
both avoid drama and engage in substantive conversations of interest.

Fred



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[stevertigo-2]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...> wrote:

> It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
> party.
>

Well, I took his meaning to be something like "go Google yourself," albeit
put in very nice terms.


> Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.
>

Your further insights on this matter would be most welcome!

-Stevertigo
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[Risker]

No, it was not intended that way, Steve. I do know that Brion has a very
long job queue, and mailing lists haven't been his top priority for a long
time. If the WMF powers that be consider it a priority, then it will move up
in his list; if not, then you may be in for quite a wait.

Risker

2009/6/27 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...>
> wrote:
>
> > It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
> > party.
> >
>
> Well, I took his meaning to be something like "go Google yourself," albeit
> put in very nice terms.
>
>
> > Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.
> >
>
> Your further insights on this matter would be most welcome!
>
> -Stevertigo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@...
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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[K. Peachey]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Risker<risker.wp@...> wrote:
> No, it was not intended that way, Steve. I do know that Brion has a very
> long job queue, and mailing lists haven't been his top priority for a long
> time. If the WMF powers that be consider it a priority, then it will move up
> in his list; if not, then you may be in for quite a wait.
>
> Risker
>
I believe mailing lists are handled by cary actually, but it doesn't
matter if anyone doesn't have time because you just log it in bugzilla
and when someone has time they will do it.

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[AGK-2]

>
> Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and
> what happens when only one party joins the mailing list?


My understanding is that the list would not be a forum for dispute
resolution, but rather a forum for discussion of dispute resolution (and of
ongoing disputes on enwiki) - and so the problems posed by only one party to
a disagreement subscribing wouldn't be a hinderance to operations on the
list.

AGK
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[Charles Matthews]

AGK wrote:

>> Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and
>> what happens when only one party joins the mailing list?
>>    
>
>
> My understanding is that the list would not be a forum for dispute
> resolution, but rather a forum for discussion of dispute resolution (and of
> ongoing disputes on enwiki) - and so the problems posed by only one party to
> a disagreement subscribing wouldn't be a hinderance to operations on the
> list.
>
>  

No, but don't you think it might be a hindrance to getting the dispute
resolved? Which precise problem are we trying to solve here?

Charles


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