Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> Note: Why not make it a general "dres-l" and let all language wikis submit?

Because multi-lingual mailing lists don't work. I don't want my inbox
full of emails written in languages I don't understand.

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> > Why not discuss on this list?
>
> I agree. This list, or the village pump, would seem a perfectly
> adequate place for that.
>

Because dispute resolution is broad, general, and conceptual enough to deal
with separately from wikien-l, which, again, appears now largely devoted to
what the Daily Mirror says about us.

And of course, the fact that people on this list will routinely bounce or
bonk anyone who raises specific article issues may also be a factor in
dealing with dispute resolution separately.

Wiken-l would thus be entirely free to talk about how WP looks in the media
mirror.

-Stevertigo
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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> > Why not discuss on this list?
>>
>> I agree. This list, or the village pump, would seem a perfectly
>> adequate place for that.
>>
>
> Because dispute resolution is broad, general, and conceptual enough to deal
> with separately from wikien-l, which, again, appears now largely devoted to
> what the Daily Mirror says about us.

We talk about whatever people start threads on. If you have other
discussion topics within the scope of the mailing list (like this one,
for example), then start threads for them.

> And of course, the fact that people on this list will routinely bounce or
> bonk anyone who raises specific article issues may also be a factor in
> dealing with dispute resolution separately.

That's because there are already plenty of places to discuss issues
with specific articles. You still haven't said why a mailing list
would be better than any of the existing ways.

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> > Note: Why not make it a general "dres-l" and let all language wikis
> submit?
>
> Because multi-lingual mailing lists don't work. I don't want my inbox
> full of emails written in languages I don't understand.
>

Hm. They do work. In fact wikipedia-l was a kind of international mailing
list, though in reality most people who deal with intnl issues write in
English anyway.

And this is to suppose that after some short time of usage, there wouldn't
be some language forking going on? Seems natural that when intl usage gets
too high, maybe 18%, then we can start forking.

There is also a neat little tool now called Google Translate - I use a
little toolbar button in ffox that does it in one click (much better than
the extensions that try to do it all, actually). Not perfect, and not usable
for certain things, but usable anyway to read things and to send terse,
grammatically formal and concise messages.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> [Gossip] - We talk about whatever people start threads on. If you have
> other
> discussion topics within the scope of the mailing list (like this one,
> for example), then start threads for them.



> [Bonk] - That's because there are already plenty of places to discuss
> issues
> with specific articles. You still haven't said why a mailing list
> would be better than any of the existing ways.
>

Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was. The
dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.

-Stevertigo
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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was. The
> dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.

I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR list.

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[David Gerard-2]

2009/6/28 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>:
> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

>> Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was. The
>> dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.

> I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR list.


It used to be a place to send unblock requests. These then went to
unblock-en-l, which is now all but moribund.


- d.

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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> > Note: Why not make it a general "dres-l" and let all language wikis
>> submit?
>>
>> Because multi-lingual mailing lists don't work. I don't want my inbox
>> full of emails written in languages I don't understand.
>>
>
> Hm. They do work. In fact wikipedia-l was a kind of international mailing
> list, though in reality most people who deal with intnl issues write in
> English anyway.

wikipedia-l is pretty much dormant. I haven't counted, but I'd guess
it gets about one thread every couple of months. I hardly thing that
is an example of a list that works.

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...>wrote:

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> > Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was.
> The
> > dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.
>
> I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR list.
>

Hm. I guess I may have been going all the way back to 2003-5. The days when
Jimbo sorted everything out and blasted everyone with wikilove.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

David Gerard <dgerard@...> wrote:


> It used to be a place to send unblock requests. These then went to
> unblock-en-l, which is now all but moribund.


Well, there you go.

Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@...> wrote:


> wikipedia-l is pretty much dormant. I haven't counted, but I'd guess
> it gets about one thread every couple of months. I hardly thing that
> is an example of a list that works.
>

Ah, but you aren't abusing logic by ignoring the fact that each language has
its own list anyway are you? My point dealt with the historical usage of
wikipedia-l as the *only mailing list, and by
default/convention/necessity/genius was an international mailing list. It
worked out pretty well, didn't it?

-Stevertigo
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[Charles Matthews]

stevertigo wrote:
> Hm. I guess I may have been going all the way back to 2003-5. The days when
> Jimbo sorted everything out and blasted everyone with wikilove.
>
>  
Right. The old days, where there was some chance of coming up with right
answers by kicking ideas around. Before we actually succeeded in
building the most complex website ever and getting taken seriously.

Charles


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[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
> Ah, but you aren't abusing logic by ignoring the fact that each language has
> its own list anyway are you? My point dealt with the historical usage of
> wikipedia-l as the *only mailing list, and by
> default/convention/necessity/genius was an international mailing list. It
> worked out pretty well, didn't it?

I'm not sure I was subscribed to it that long ago... Was there ever a
significant number of emails in languages other than English?

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[stevertigo-2]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Emily Monroe <bluecaliocean@...> wrote:

> Just to add my voice in the conversation...
>

We usually employ the idiom "two cents," but you are right - "voice [to] the
conversation" is formal and probably translates quite well. "Adding my two
rupees.." probably doesn't mean anything.

I also don't think it's a good idea to have a mailing list to have
> dispute resolution to happen.
>


> *About* resolution is another
> matter--I have no opinion about that.
>

Think of it like a patch of sky (mailing list) where the eagles (helpers)
could see things better (overview): They would still have to fly down to
Earth (wiki) to do their hunting (dispute resolution).

We can also discuss dispute resolution issues in general, though there are
probably a few yokels who think dispute resolution is perfect and thus
doesn't need improvement, and thus think discussion about its improvement is
unnecessary.

If you are already a bit familiar with our DR process(es), you might
understand there are general issues that need to be dealt with.

Too much can happen.


Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the terms
"too much" and "can happen"?


> People will be unable or unwilling to join, etc.


Well I agree there is a little technical issue here, and this is a criticism
Ive had of IRC for a long time; that it exposes people's IPs and therefore
they might not want to participate. Not everyone wants to show their emails.
But we can set up a way to submit emails to the list through the wiki. A
"dres-l" user account has just been set up on the wiki. I can set it up to
forward any messages to the "dres-l" list, I think. IIRC the form masks the
email address, but shows the username.


> I also find it kind of ironic that a discussion about dispute
> resolution will cause a dispute.
>

The word is "iconic." Not "ironic." "Ironic" would be if George Takei came
back from the dead to edit his article, and we banned him for lack of
reliable sources.

-Stevertigo
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[stevertigo-2]

Emily Monroe <bluecaliocean@...> wrote:
>> Too much can happen.
>
>
Stevertigo <stvrtg@...> wrote:
> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the terms
"too much"
>  and "can happen"?

Note: For some reason, in my previous post, Emilys statement above was shown
unthreaded in the pipermail display, making it look like I said "too much
can happen" On my Gmail it looks fine. Dunno why.

-Stevertigo
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[Fred Bauder-2]

> 2009/6/28 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>> Because this is not a dispute resolution mailing list, as it once was.
>> The
>> dispute resolution mailing lists - are now closed-source.
>
> I've been on this list for years, I don't remember it ever being a DR
> list.
>

It is a general purpose list to discuss any matter regarding the English
Wikipedia, including dispute resolution. About the only thing that will
get you in real trouble is trying to discuss the content of an article,
which get a "to the talk page" response.

Fred



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[Fred Bauder-2]

> stevertigo wrote:
>> Hm. I guess I may have been going all the way back to 2003-5. The days
>> when
>> Jimbo sorted everything out and blasted everyone with wikilove.
>>
>>
> Right. The old days, where there was some chance of coming up with right
> answers by kicking ideas around. Before we actually succeeded in
> building the most complex website ever and getting taken seriously.
>
> Charles
>

We can do the same thing now, if we choose to.

Fred



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[Fred Bauder-2]

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Fred Bauder<fredbaud@...>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> An example of the sort of thing we might discuss on a dispute
>> resolution
>> mailing list.
>
> Why not discuss on this list?
>
> Carcharoth
>

This list can take only so much discussion of dispute resolution.

Fred



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[stevertigo-2]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:37 AM, stevertigo <stvrtg@...> wrote:

>
> A "dres-l" user account has just been set up on the wiki. I can set it up
> to forward any messages to the "dres-l" list, I think.
>

This is not actually true. Apparently dres-l is too close to someone's
username. The account is user:dres-list. Will set up as needed.

-Stevertigo
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[Emily Monroe]

> We usually employ the idiom "two cents," but you are right - "voice  
> [to] the
> conversation" is formal and probably translates quite well. "Adding  
> my two
> rupees.." probably doesn't mean anything.
I like formality--plus I tend not to use idioms online. Even in an  
English forum, we'll have people who don't read English well, or who  
can't interpret metamorphic speech very well.

> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the  
> terms
> "too much" and "can happen"?
"Too much can happen"=What I've already said, actually. I've read a  
little in the arbcom archives, and know people sometimes won't  
participate in their own RfC, or won't comply with whatever consensus  
there is (that was achieved through DR). If people won't participate/
cooperate with something most definitely *on wiki*, why would they  
participate on something that talks about Wikipedia?

Emily

On Jun 28, 2009, at 1:37 PM, stevertigo wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Emily Monroe <bluecaliocean@...>  
> wrote:
>
>> Just to add my voice in the conversation...
>>
>
> We usually employ the idiom "two cents," but you are right - "voice  
> [to] the
> conversation" is formal and probably translates quite well. "Adding  
> my two
> rupees.." probably doesn't mean anything.
>
> I also don't think it's a good idea to have a mailing list to have
>> dispute resolution to happen.
>>
>
>
>> *About* resolution is another
>> matter--I have no opinion about that.
>>
>
> Think of it like a patch of sky (mailing list) where the eagles  
> (helpers)
> could see things better (overview): They would still have to fly  
> down to
> Earth (wiki) to do their hunting (dispute resolution).
>
> We can also discuss dispute resolution issues in general, though  
> there are
> probably a few yokels who think dispute resolution is perfect and thus
> doesn't need improvement, and thus think discussion about its  
> improvement is
> unnecessary.
>
> If you are already a bit familiar with our DR process(es), you might
> understand there are general issues that need to be dealt with.
>
> Too much can happen.
>
>
> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the  
> terms
> "too much" and "can happen"?
>
>
>> People will be unable or unwilling to join, etc.
>
>
> Well I agree there is a little technical issue here, and this is a  
> criticism
> Ive had of IRC for a long time; that it exposes people's IPs and  
> therefore
> they might not want to participate. Not everyone wants to show their  
> emails.
> But we can set up a way to submit emails to the list through the  
> wiki. A
> "dres-l" user account has just been set up on the wiki. I can set it  
> up to
> forward any messages to the "dres-l" list, I think. IIRC the form  
> masks the
> email address, but shows the username.
>
>
>> I also find it kind of ironic that a discussion about dispute
>> resolution will cause a dispute.
>>
>
> The word is "iconic." Not "ironic." "Ironic" would be if George  
> Takei came
> back from the dead to edit his article, and we banned him for lack of
> reliable sources.
>
> -Stevertigo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@...
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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[Carcharoth]

If this mailing list is created, I predict an "article rescue" list
will follow shortly. The fact of the matter is that anyone interested
in helping out in dispute resolution already has a vast array of
places to go to and to get involved. Now, if a bot was to mail out a
summary from various places, that might work. But a centralised place
to ask for help is likely to be overwhelmed if it ever becomes
popular, and will be accused of elitism and forum shopping if people
parachute in to help out.

Publicising discussions is tricky. I started a mini-how-to guide on it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Publicising_discussions

The critical bit I think is here:

"Normal discussions do not always need large amounts of input, and a
balance needs to be struck between gaining sufficient input for
consensus, and overwhelming a discussion with too much input."

What I would like to see is examples of the very largest discussions
and polls (e.g. ArbCom elections, polls on Flagged Revisions, the poll
on the Main Page redesign, some of the large naming disputes) to the
the intermediate ones (RfCs, RfAs) to the smallest ones (some dispute
between two people on some obscure page in some forgotten corner of
Wikipedia).

Of course, WP:3O (third opinion) was tailor-made for resolving the
'small' disputes between two people.

But I'd still like to see examples of intermediate-sized discussions,
and what level of participation or publicity is appropriate there. For
example - a banning discussion at ANI - how much attention and of what
sort, does that receive? Compare to a ban proposal handed down in an
ArbCom case. Compare policy-related discussions on ArbCom cases with
discussion on (sometimes poorly-watched) policy pages, and compare
again with discussions on the most widely watched policy talk pages.

As Charles said, this is a complex structure we've built here.

Carcharoth

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM, stevertigo<stvrtg@...> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Emily Monroe <bluecaliocean@...> wrote:
>
>> Just to add my voice in the conversation...
>>
>
> We usually employ the idiom "two cents," but you are right - "voice [to] the
> conversation" is formal and probably translates quite well. "Adding my two
> rupees.." probably doesn't mean anything.
>
> I also don't think it's a good idea to have a mailing list to have
>> dispute resolution to happen.
>>
>
>
>> *About* resolution is another
>> matter--I have no opinion about that.
>>
>
> Think of it like a patch of sky (mailing list) where the eagles (helpers)
> could see things better (overview): They would still have to fly down to
> Earth (wiki) to do their hunting (dispute resolution).
>
> We can also discuss dispute resolution issues in general, though there are
> probably a few yokels who think dispute resolution is perfect and thus
> doesn't need improvement, and thus think discussion about its improvement is
> unnecessary.
>
> If you are already a bit familiar with our DR process(es), you might
> understand there are general issues that need to be dealt with.
>
> Too much can happen.
>
>
> Ah. But could you please clarify what specifically you mean by the terms
> "too much" and "can happen"?
>
>
>> People will be unable or unwilling to join, etc.
>
>
> Well I agree there is a little technical issue here, and this is a criticism
> Ive had of IRC for a long time; that it exposes people's IPs and therefore
> they might not want to participate. Not everyone wants to show their emails.
> But we can set up a way to submit emails to the list through the wiki. A
> "dres-l" user account has just been set up on the wiki. I can set it up to
> forward any messages to the "dres-l" list, I think. IIRC the form masks the
> email address, but shows the username.
>
>
>> I also find it kind of ironic that a discussion about dispute
>> resolution will cause a dispute.
>>
>
> The word is "iconic." Not "ironic." "Ironic" would be if George Takei came
> back from the dead to edit his article, and we banned him for lack of
> reliable sources.
>
> -Stevertigo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@...
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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