Distributed Pairprogramming for Drupal

[Eike Starkmann]

Dear Drupal Team,

My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
Team at the Freie University in Berlin.

Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.

It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with  to
other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.

In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
many advantages to Open Source Software development:

* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.

* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
give new developers an introduction to the code.

* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.

Saros can be useful in the following contexts:

* Working on complicated problems in the code
* Performing code reviews
* Debugging
* Code presentation
* Code sprints
* Introducing new developers to the project
* ...

What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
programming using Saros?

If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
please visit our website or feel free to contact me.

I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.

Kind regards, Eike Starkmann

Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin


--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Mori Sugimoto-2]

Sounds very interesting :)
What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you
are essentially only sending text back and forth?

When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local
workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version
control?

-Mori



Eike Starkmann wrote:

> Dear Drupal Team,
>
> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>
> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>
> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with
> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>
> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>
> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability,
> etc.
>
> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>
> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your
> own.
>
> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>
> * Working on complicated problems in the code
> * Performing code reviews
> * Debugging
> * Code presentation
> * Code sprints
> * Introducing new developers to the project
> * ...
>
> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
> programming using Saros?
>
> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>
> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>
> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>
> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>
>

[Antonio P. P. Almeida-2]

Aos Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:21:37 +0100 em Re: [development] Distributed
Pairprogramming for Drupal Mori Sugimoto <foss@...>
escreveu:

foss>
foss> Sounds very interesting :)
foss> What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC,
as you
foss> are essentially only sending text back and forth?
foss>
foss> When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in
the local
foss> workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are
using version
foss> control?
foss>
foss> -Mori

Not to rain on someone else's parade but you can do the same in Emacs:

http://technomancy.us/129

Has you can read commiting with a version control system can be done
only by one person at a time, otherwise you get conflicts.

--- appa

[Olivier Jacquet]

This sounds very similar to
http://codesurgeonblog.com/2008/06/cola-real-time-shared-editing.html 
which was demonstrated last year. How is Saros related to that effort? A
quick search didn't reveal much.



Eike Starkmann wrote:

> Dear Drupal Team,
>
> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>
> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>
> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with  to
> other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>
> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>
> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
>
> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>
> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
>
> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>
> * Working on complicated problems in the code
> * Performing code reviews
> * Debugging
> * Code presentation
> * Code sprints
> * Introducing new developers to the project
> * ...
>
> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
> programming using Saros?
>
> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>
> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>
> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>
> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>
>

[Eike Starkmann]

Mori Sugimoto wrote:
> Sounds very interesting :)
Thanks, would be great if it can improve your work.
> What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you
> are essentially only sending text back and forth?
It is much smaller than VNC, because only the diff of the text is send
via XMPP. So only (compressed)text is send.
>
> When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local
> workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version
> control?
Yes, the files are stored in the local workspace and are kept sync
between users. The normal way you work is that the host shares his/the
project with others. But everybody can also just check out the project
via svn/git/etc. before they start a session.
In don't know if i got your question right. Derived files aren't send
via Saros, e.g. .svn isn't synchronized.

Greets, Eike

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Eike Starkmann]

Antonio P. P. Almeida wrote:

> Aos Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:21:37 +0100 em Re: [development] Distributed
> Pairprogramming for Drupal Mori Sugimoto <foss@...> escreveu:
>
> foss>
> foss> Sounds very interesting :)
> foss> What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as
> you
> foss> are essentially only sending text back and forth?
> foss>
> foss> When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the
> local
> foss> workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using
> version
> foss> control?
> foss>
> foss> -Mori
>
> Not to rain on someone else's parade but you can do the same in Emacs:
>
> http://technomancy.us/129
>

That's true, but i'm not using emacs ;-)
> Has you can read commiting with a version control system can be done
> only by one person at a time, otherwise you get conflicts.

This isn't a problem with Saros because after a session everybody has
the same project. So i makes no difference who is committing.

Greets, Eike
--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Eike Starkmann]

Olivier Jacquet wrote:
>
> This sounds very similar to
> http://codesurgeonblog.com/2008/06/cola-real-time-shared-editing.html 
> which was demonstrated last year. How is Saros related to that effort? A
> quick search didn't reveal much.
It is similar, but Saros is not related in any way to Cola. Saros is an
own project done by Freie University Berlin. Have you ever worked with Cola?

>
>
>
> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>> Dear Drupal Team,
>>
>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
>> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>>
>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
>> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
>> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>>
>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with  
>> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>>
>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
>> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>>
>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
>> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability,
>> etc.
>>
>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
>> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>>
>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
>> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
>> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your
>> own.
>>
>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>>
>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>> * Performing code reviews
>> * Debugging
>> * Code presentation
>> * Code sprints
>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>> * ...
>>
>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
>> programming using Saros?
>>
>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>>
>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>>
>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>>
>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>>
>>

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide
en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we all
have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in
our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So "Could
use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.

That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers
if they choose to use it.

Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP,
so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one
particular language's development idiosyncrasies.

--Larry Garfield

Eike Starkmann wrote:

> Dear Drupal Team,
>
> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>
> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>
> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with  to
> other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>
> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>
> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
>
> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>
> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
>
> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>
> * Working on complicated problems in the code
> * Performing code reviews
> * Debugging
> * Code presentation
> * Code sprints
> * Introducing new developers to the project
> * ...
>
> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
> programming using Saros?
>
> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>
> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>
> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>
> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>
>

[Ken Winters]

I was thinking along the same lines.  Most of the Drupal development  
that I've seen is either:

A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in  
the issue tracker rather than working at the same time
B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case  
it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development

I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who  
do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless  
I got a tele-working position somewhere.

Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those  
tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.

- Ken Winters

On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@... wrote:

> Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could  
> decide en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed  
> that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of  
> tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although  
> there, too).  So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong  
> question to ask.
>
> That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain  
> developers if they choose to use it.
>
> Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not  
> PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to  
> one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>
> --Larry Garfield
>
> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>> Dear Drupal Team,
>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the  
>> Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and  
>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers  
>> to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to  
>> Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in  
>> Eclipse.
>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when  
>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact  
>> with  to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good  
>> response.
>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it  
>> brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This  
>> should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase  
>> readability, etc.
>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one  
>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help  
>> to give new developers an introduction to the code.
>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions  
>> inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working  
>> on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the  
>> project on your own.
>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>> * Performing code reviews
>> * Debugging
>> * Code presentation
>> * Code sprints
>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>> * ...
>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair  
>> programming using Saros?
>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works  
>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin

[Cameron Eagans]

I was just looking for something like this! I'll be using this very soon on another project of mine =D

As far as Drupal goes, I think that something like this would be particularly useful for core in a time like...oh,say....now. With code freeze ~38 hours away, efficiency is key to getting the patches from the exception list into core. If more than one person is working on a patch, it really makes sense to use something like this and have everyone looking at the same code at the same time so that it's not a constant string of upload to the issue queue, have a minor bug pointed out, reroll with bug fixes. Two sets of eyes on any of those patches at any one time would be awesome, and I think it would help get them ready to be committed.
-----
Cameron Eagans
Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC
http://www.blackstormsstudios.com

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Ken Winters <kwinters@...> wrote:

I was thinking along the same lines.  Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:

A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time
B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development

I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I got a tele-working position somewhere.

Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.

- Ken Winters

On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@... wrote:

Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.

That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.

Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.

--Larry Garfield

Eike Starkmann wrote:

Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with  to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code
* Performing code reviews
* Debugging
* Code presentation
* Code sprints
* Introducing new developers to the project
* ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin

[Eike Starkmann]

larry@... wrote:
> Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide
> en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we all
> have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in
> our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So "Could
> use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
>
I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the
people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are
workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if
there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair
reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also
something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this
because we are all working too distributed and in different time zones"
this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and
improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
> That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers
> if they choose to use it.
>
Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
> Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP,
> so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one
> particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>
Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following
the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and
PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page:
https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please
let me know and we will try to but it in the next release.

Greets, Eike

> --Larry Garfield
>
> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>> Dear Drupal Team,
>>
>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
>> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>>
>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
>> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
>> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>>
>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with
>> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>>
>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
>> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>>
>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
>> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability,
>> etc.
>>
>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
>> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>>
>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
>> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
>> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your
>> own.
>>
>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>>
>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>> * Performing code reviews
>> * Debugging
>> * Code presentation
>> * Code sprints
>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>> * ...
>>
>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
>> programming using Saros?
>>
>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>>
>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>>
>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>>
>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>>
>>

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Robert Douglass]

Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention.  
It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you  
could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code  
directly.

Robert Douglass

The RobsHouse.net Newsletter: http://robshouse.net/newsletter/robshousenet-newsletter
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/robertDouglass

On Oct 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Eike Starkmann wrote:

> larry@... wrote:
>> Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could  
>> decide
>> en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we  
>> all
>> have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in
>> our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So  
>> "Could
>> use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
>>
> I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the
> people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are
> workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if
> there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair
> reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also
> something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this
> because we are all working too distributed and in different time  
> zones"
> this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and
> improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
>> That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain  
>> developers
>> if they choose to use it.
>>
> Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
>> Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not  
>> PHP,
>> so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one
>> particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>>
> Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following
> the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and
> PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page:
> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
> If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please
> let me know and we will try to but it in the next release.
>
> Greets, Eike
>> --Larry Garfield
>>
>> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>>> Dear Drupal Team,
>>>
>>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the  
>>> Saros
>>> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>>>
>>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
>>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more  
>>> developers to
>>> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to  
>>> Gobby,
>>> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>>>
>>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
>>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with
>>> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>>>
>>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it  
>>> brings
>>> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>>>
>>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This  
>>> should
>>> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase  
>>> readability,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
>>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
>>> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>>>
>>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions  
>>> inside
>>> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on  
>>> (think
>>> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on  
>>> your
>>> own.
>>>
>>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>>>
>>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>>> * Performing code reviews
>>> * Debugging
>>> * Code presentation
>>> * Code sprints
>>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>>> * ...
>>>
>>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
>>> programming using Saros?
>>>
>>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
>>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>>>
>>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>>>
>>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>>>
>>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Eike Starkmann
> This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to  
> contact
> my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
> christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Vladimir Zlatanov]

The tool is usable, in some limited fashion - project teams etc... It is
not a Drupal tool - there is no such beast - drupal is the tool itself.

Having said that the irc paste combo is used exactly in the manner you
suggest. Not just by the drupal crowd, but by most projects I've
touched.

Is there space for this tool - yes. Is it big? No. Until you can
collaborate with others - eclipse, emacs, textmate, put your favourite
environment, it is not going to be attractive. People don't like to be
dependent on a specific platform. Everyone has their own.

[Eike Starkmann]

Cameron Eagans wrote:
> I was just looking for something like this! I'll be using this very soon
> on another project of mine =D
>
Great, is it also an Open Source Project? Would be nice if I can help
you with Saros, so that I can find out how you work with it and what has
to be improved in Saros

> As far as Drupal goes, I think that something like this would be
> particularly useful for core in a time like...oh,say....now. With code
> freeze ~38 hours away, efficiency is key to getting the patches from the
> exception list into core. If more than one person is working on a patch,
> it really makes sense to use something like this and have everyone
> looking at the same code at the same time so that it's not a constant
> string of upload to the issue queue, have a minor bug pointed out,
> reroll with bug fixes. Two sets of eyes on any of those patches at any
> one time would be awesome, and I think it would help get them ready to
> be committed.
> -----

Now, that sounds like good scope. Would be great if you give this a try.
Normally people work together with Saros and using Skype or Mumlbe for
voice communication. I would offer you to join this session, to give you
realtime support if something doesn't work out. What do you think about
this?

Greets, Eike

>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Ken Winters <kwinters@...
> <mailto:kwinters@...>> wrote:
>
>     I was thinking along the same lines.  Most of the Drupal development
>     that I've seen is either:
>
>     A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in
>     the issue tracker rather than working at the same time
>     B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case
>     it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
>
>     I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others
>     who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros
>     unless I got a tele-working position somewhere.
>
>     Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those
>     tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.
>
>     - Ken Winters
>
>
>     On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@...
>     <mailto:larry@...> wrote:
>
>         Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could
>         decide en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so
>         distributed that we all have our own development workflows using
>         a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our
>         offices (although there, too).  So "Could use and Drupal
>         benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
>
>         That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain
>         developers if they choose to use it.
>
>         Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java,
>         not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being
>         centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>
>         --Larry Garfield
>
>         Eike Starkmann wrote:
>
>             Dear Drupal Team,
>             My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of
>             the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>             Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing
>             and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more
>             developers to work together in real-time on the same files.
>             It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but
>             focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>             It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful
>             when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in
>             contact with  to other projects, for example Typo3 and got
>             some good response.
>             In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think
>             it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>             * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review.
>             This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs,
>             increase readability, etc.
>             * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more
>             than one person look at and work with the same code. This
>             should also help to give new developers an introduction to
>             the code.
>             * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your
>             actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you
>             are both working on (think privacy) and you are still
>             independent to explore the project on your own.
>             Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>             * Working on complicated problems in the code
>             * Performing code reviews
>             * Debugging
>             * Code presentation
>             * Code sprints
>             * Introducing new developers to the project
>             * ...
>             What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing
>             pair programming using Saros?
>             If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how
>             it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>             I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>             Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>             Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>             Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>             Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>             Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>             https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>
>
>

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Eike Starkmann]

Robert Douglass wrote:
> Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention.
> It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you
> could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code
> directly.
>
Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers
 to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code
tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if
somebody has done this. What do you think?

Greets, Eike

> Robert Douglass
>
> The RobsHouse.net Newsletter:
> http://robshouse.net/newsletter/robshousenet-newsletter
> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/robertDouglass
>
> On Oct 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
>
>> larry@... wrote:
>>> Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide
>>> en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we all
>>> have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in
>>> our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So "Could
>>> use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
>>>
>> I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the
>> people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are
>> workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if
>> there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair
>> reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also
>> something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this
>> because we are all working too distributed and in different time zones"
>> this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and
>> improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
>>> That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers
>>> if they choose to use it.
>>>
>> Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
>>> Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP,
>>> so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one
>>> particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>>>
>> Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following
>> the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and
>> PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page:
>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>> If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please
>> let me know and we will try to but it in the next release.
>>
>> Greets, Eike
>>> --Larry Garfield
>>>
>>> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>>>> Dear Drupal Team,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros
>>>> Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>>>>
>>>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
>>>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to
>>>> work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby,
>>>> SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>>>>
>>>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
>>>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with
>>>> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
>>>> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>>>>
>>>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should
>>>> help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
>>>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
>>>> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>>>>
>>>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside
>>>> of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think
>>>> privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your
>>>> own.
>>>>
>>>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>>>>
>>>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>>>> * Performing code reviews
>>>> * Debugging
>>>> * Code presentation
>>>> * Code sprints
>>>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>>>> * ...
>>>>
>>>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
>>>> programming using Saros?
>>>>
>>>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
>>>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>>>>
>>>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>>>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>>>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>>>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>>>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eike Starkmann
>> This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
>> my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
>> christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...
>

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Eike Starkmann]

Ken Winters wrote:
> I was thinking along the same lines.  Most of the Drupal development
> that I've seen is either:
>
> A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the
> issue tracker rather than working at the same time
> B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it
> would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
>
If you are working just like this perhaps Saros really doesn't make
sense. But what is about the issue Cameron was thinking of? Working
together with Saros and getting the patches in the core?
> I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do
> as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I
> got a tele-working position somewhere.
>
> Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those
> tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.
>
Would be great if there are some people, how would like to find this out.

Greets, Eike

>
> On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@... wrote:
>
>> Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide
>> en masse to use a tool like this.  Drupal is so distributed that we
>> all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often
>> in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too).  So
>> "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
>>
>> That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain
>> developers if they choose to use it.
>>
>> Is it language-dependent?  Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not
>> PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one
>> particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
>>
>> --Larry Garfield
>>
>> Eike Starkmann wrote:
>>> Dear Drupal Team,
>>> My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the
>>> Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
>>> Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and
>>> distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers
>>> to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to
>>> Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
>>> It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when
>>> developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with
>>> to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
>>> In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings
>>> many advantages to Open Source Software development:
>>> * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This
>>> should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase
>>> readability, etc.
>>> * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one
>>> person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to
>>> give new developers an introduction to the code.
>>> * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions
>>> inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on
>>> (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project
>>> on your own.
>>> Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
>>> * Working on complicated problems in the code
>>> * Performing code reviews
>>> * Debugging
>>> * Code presentation
>>> * Code sprints
>>> * Introducing new developers to the project
>>> * ...
>>> What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair
>>> programming using Saros?
>>> If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works
>>> please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
>>> I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
>>> Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
>>> Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP
>>> Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update
>>> Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/
>>> Programming Languages Supported by Saros :
>>> https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
>

--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Ken Winters]

On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:

> Ken Winters wrote:
>> I was thinking along the same lines.  Most of the Drupal development
>> that I've seen is either:
>>
>> A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously  
>> in the
>> issue tracker rather than working at the same time
>> B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which  
>> case it
>> would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
>>
> If you are working just like this perhaps Saros really doesn't make
> sense. But what is about the issue Cameron was thinking of? Working
> together with Saros and getting the patches in the core?

It might work in some cases, but I suspect it won't reach wide  
adoption.  Time
is very tight, so any delays messing with connection problems, etc.  
aren't
really acceptable.  So, both parties would need to have already used  
it in the
past and frequently for it to be usable during crunch time.

- Ken Winters

[Michael Favia-2]

On 10/15/2009 08:14 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:

> Robert Douglass wrote:
>    
>> Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention.
>> It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you
>> could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code
>> directly.
>>
>>      
> Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers
>   to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code
> tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if
> somebody has done this. What do you think?
>    

This is exactly what i find myself doing with my developers that are new
to the "drupal way" I plan on installing this today and integrating it
into my eclipse workflow for a test run. Thanks for bringing it to my
attention. Its a novel solution to an old problem of communicating via
line numbers :). -mf

[Eike Starkmann]

Michael Favia wrote:

> On 10/15/2009 08:14 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
>> Robert Douglass wrote:
>>  
>>> Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention.
>>> It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you
>>> could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code
>>> directly.
>>>
>>>      
>> Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers
>>   to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code
>> tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if
>> somebody has done this. What do you think?
>>    
> This is exactly what i find myself doing with my developers that are new
> to the "drupal way" I plan on installing this today and integrating it
> into my eclipse workflow for a test run. Thanks for bringing it to my
> attention. Its a novel solution to an old problem of communicating via
> line numbers :). -mf

Thanks for testing it, would be great if you can keep me up to date and
give me some feedback.

Greets, Eike



--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...

[Eike Starkmann]

Vladimir Zlatanov wrote:
> The tool is usable, in some limited fashion - project teams etc... It is
> not a Drupal tool - there is no such beast - drupal is the tool itself.
>
> Having said that the irc paste combo is used exactly in the manner you
> suggest. Not just by the drupal crowd, but by most projects I've
> touched.
>
That's a good point. So there is a need for collaborate editing or lets
say realtime collaborate working, which is often done using irc, but I
think that this way of collaboration can be improved.
> Is there space for this tool - yes. Is it big? No. Until you can
> collaborate with others - eclipse, emacs, textmate, put your favourite
> environment, it is not going to be attractive. People don't like to be
> dependent on a specific platform. Everyone has their own.
>
So you think nobody would change their favourite environment to eclipse
 just because working together with Saros? That might be true, but what
about doing reviews, you just have to use eclipse to do pair reviews,
you don't have to switch to eclipse totally, you can keep on developing
with what ever you want.

Greets, Eike
>
>


--
Eike Starkmann
This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact
my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side:
christopher.oezbek@... and stephan.salinger@...