Divergent Wiktionary logos

[Cary Bass-4]

Hi all,

The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
completely different logos.  [1], [2]

The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.

I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
diverges wildly from project to project.  Of the top ten Wiktionary
projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
variation of the classic version:

fr: new
en: classic
tr: new
vi: new
ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
io: classic (English version)
el: new
zh: classic (divergent variation)
pl: classic (divergent variation)
fi: classic (English version)

As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating.  The
new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
least, the English Wiktionary community.

I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.

Cary

[1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
[2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
[3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>


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[Анатолій Гончаров]

I think that "new" logo is easier for creating (and translating). That's why
I chose "new" variant of logo for uk.wiktionary logo. And community
supported me.

2009/3/25 Cary Bass <cary@...>

> Hi all,
>
> The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
> completely different logos.  [1], [2]
>
> The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
> place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
> the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
> they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
>
> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> diverges wildly from project to project.  Of the top ten Wiktionary
> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> variation of the classic version:
>
> fr: new
> en: classic
> tr: new
> vi: new
> ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
> io: classic (English version)
> el: new
> zh: classic (divergent variation)
> pl: classic (divergent variation)
> fi: classic (English version)
>
> As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
> visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
> should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
> identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating.  The
> new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
> least, the English Wiktionary community.
>
> I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
> be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
> of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
> process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
> recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
>
> Cary
>
> [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
> [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
> [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l@...
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

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mailto:anatoliy.goncharov@...
ICQ: 364-176-156
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[Cary Bass-4]

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Hash: SHA1

We also have the issue of the favicon to consider.  At the moment,
it's identical to Wikipedia's, and will be, unless the logo gains wide
acceptance.

See [4]

Cary

[4] <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16315>

Анатолій Гончаров wrote:

> I think that "new" logo is easier for creating (and translating).
> That's why I chose "new" variant of logo for uk.wiktionary logo.
> And community supported me.
>
> 2009/3/25 Cary Bass <cary@...>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
>>  completely different logos.  [1], [2]
>>
>> The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was
>> taken place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta
>> [3]; which the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound
>> by, because they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
>>
>> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements
>> too closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too
>> cartooned to some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual
>> identity as a project logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really
>> a logo at all, and diverges wildly from project to project.  Of
>> the top ten Wiktionary projects, four of them use the new
>> version, while 6 of them use some variation of the classic
>> version:
>>
>> fr: new en: classic tr: new vi: new ru: classic (a variation
>> which little resembles the original) io: classic (English
>> version) el: new zh: classic (divergent variation) pl: classic
>> (divergent variation) fi: classic (English version)
>>
>> As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
>>  visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think
>> it should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common
>> visual identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of
>> creating.  The new logo, however, met with rather heavy
>> resistance in, at the very least, the English Wiktionary
>> community.
>>
>> I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs
>> to be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet
>> binding of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails,
>> starting the process again, and succeeding to foment an
>> individual logo like the recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
>>
>>
>> Cary
>>
>> [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org> [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org> [3]
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Wiktionary-l
>> mailing list Wiktionary-l@...
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>>
>
>
>

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[Jay Walsh]

Hi all,

Just wanted to second Cary's note - we talked about it briefly today.  
A single brand identity for the project would be so much stronger, so  
I encourage discussion on the matter.  I completely appreciate the  
challenges and how things have evolved up to this point, but it would  
certainly be worth a deeper discussion and resolution.

Generally speaking we want to ensure all of the brand identities line  
up across languages.  I'm always impressed by the simple and elegant  
way the project marks get localized in other languages/scripts but  
still nicely translate with the visual style.

Best,

--
Jay Walsh
Head of Communications
WikimediaFoundation.org
[phone] x 609

On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Cary Bass wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
> completely different logos.  [1], [2]
>
> The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
> place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
> the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
> they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
>
> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> diverges wildly from project to project.  Of the top ten Wiktionary
> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> variation of the classic version:
>
> fr: new
> en: classic
> tr: new
> vi: new
> ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
> io: classic (English version)
> el: new
> zh: classic (divergent variation)
> pl: classic (divergent variation)
> fi: classic (English version)
>
> As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
> visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
> should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
> identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating.  The
> new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
> least, the English Wiktionary community.
>
> I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
> be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
> of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
> process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
> recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
>
> Cary
>
> [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
> [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
> [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
>

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[Conrad Irwin]

Hi,

I personally like the new logo, but from the discussion on en.wikt,
we/they have resisted it so long that I suspect it would seem to be
losing face to back down now. I believe a portion of the resistance is
due to a rumour that Hasbro have some kind of legal claim to a
scrabble tile, and so we might be infringing on that; if that rumour
could be publicly debunked that would help.

The favicon I regard as a non-issue and is not really relevant here.
All(?) Wikipedias use an, almost universally recognised, globe logo;
they should have a globe favicon. Wiktionary doesn't have a clearly
preferred logo, but the W is about the only feature common to both
(though on the tiles I think it is a true W as opposed to overlayed
Vs).

Conrad

2009/3/25 Jay Walsh <jwalsh@...>:

> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to second Cary's note - we talked about it briefly today.
> A single brand identity for the project would be so much stronger, so
> I encourage discussion on the matter.  I completely appreciate the
> challenges and how things have evolved up to this point, but it would
> certainly be worth a deeper discussion and resolution.
>
> Generally speaking we want to ensure all of the brand identities line
> up across languages.  I'm always impressed by the simple and elegant
> way the project marks get localized in other languages/scripts but
> still nicely translate with the visual style.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> [phone] x 609
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Cary Bass wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
>> completely different logos.  [1], [2]
>>
>> The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
>> place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
>> the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
>> they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
>>
>> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
>> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
>> some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
>> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
>> diverges wildly from project to project.  Of the top ten Wiktionary
>> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
>> variation of the classic version:
>>
>> fr: new
>> en: classic
>> tr: new
>> vi: new
>> ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
>> io: classic (English version)
>> el: new
>> zh: classic (divergent variation)
>> pl: classic (divergent variation)
>> fi: classic (English version)
>>
>> As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
>> visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
>> should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
>> identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating.  The
>> new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
>> least, the English Wiktionary community.
>>
>> I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
>> be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
>> of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
>> process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
>> recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
>>
>> Cary
>>
>> [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
>> [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
>> [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l@...
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

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[Elisabeth Anderl-2]

Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as copyright
issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most ugly
thing I have ever seen.

Btw.: from alexa.com:
Where people go on Wiktionary.org:

   - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
   - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
   - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
   - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
   - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
   - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
   - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
   - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
   - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
   - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo

Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...

Best regards, E.

2009/3/25 Jay Walsh <jwalsh@...>

> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to second Cary's note - we talked about it briefly today.
> A single brand identity for the project would be so much stronger, so
> I encourage discussion on the matter.  I completely appreciate the
> challenges and how things have evolved up to this point, but it would
> certainly be worth a deeper discussion and resolution.
>
> Generally speaking we want to ensure all of the brand identities line
> up across languages.  I'm always impressed by the simple and elegant
> way the project marks get localized in other languages/scripts but
> still nicely translate with the visual style.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> [phone] x 609
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Cary Bass wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
> > completely different logos.  [1], [2]
> >
> > The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
> > place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
> > the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
> > they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
> >
> > I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> > closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> > some.  The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> > logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> > diverges wildly from project to project.  Of the top ten Wiktionary
> > projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> > variation of the classic version:
> >
> > fr: new
> > en: classic
> > tr: new
> > vi: new
> > ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
> > io: classic (English version)
> > el: new
> > zh: classic (divergent variation)
> > pl: classic (divergent variation)
> > fi: classic (English version)
> >
> > As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
> > visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
> > should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
> > identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating.  The
> > new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
> > least, the English Wiktionary community.
> >
> > I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
> > be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
> > of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
> > process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
> > recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
> >
> > Cary
> >
> > [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
> > [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
> > [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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[Yann Forget-2]

Elisabeth Anderl wrote:

> Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
> the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as copyright
> issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most ugly
> thing I have ever seen.
>
> Btw.: from alexa.com:
> Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
>
>    - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
>    - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
>    - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
>    - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
>    - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
>    - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
>    - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
>    - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
>    - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
>    - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
>
> Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...

I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
Wiktionary because of the logo.

> Best regards, E.

Regards,

Yann
--
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http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
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[Elisabeth Anderl-2]

You do get me wrong, I am not justifying the old logo, it is not a logo,
but the new logo is not accepted by many communities and there is a dispute
going on for long time now [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and I do not recommend
to force all these communities with something ugly like that after all these
failed attempts to get them to accept it.
If there would be someone able to design a new one from the scratch,
something that looks more serious and not like a kindergarden sign, maybe
that might get more projectwide acception.

E.

[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo#Trademark_infringement
[2]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-November/subject.html
[3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-February/subject.html
[4]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-January/subject.html
[5]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2006-September/subject.html


2009/3/25 Yann Forget <yann@...>

> Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
> > Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
> > the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as
> copyright
> > issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most
> ugly
> > thing I have ever seen.
> >
> > Btw.: from alexa.com:
> > Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
> >
> >    - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
> >    - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
> >    - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
> >    - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
> >    - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
> >    - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
> >    - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
> >    - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
> >    - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
> >    - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
> >
> > Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...
>
> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
> attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
> Wiktionary because of the logo.
>
> > Best regards, E.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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[Matthieu Barba]

Hi,

I didn't like the new logo (and the way it was chosen), but we installed it
anyway on fr.wiktionary because we wanted to have a unified logo. If all the
Wiktionaries don't use it, it is useless.

I'd like to vote for a new logo, but the process should be better prepared
than last time.

Note on the scrabble thing: personally it's not the copyright with Hasbro
that bothered me. I just think that the logo should identify the project
("hey, it's the Wiktionary!") without reference to something else ("hey,
it's that dictionary that uses scrabble tiles!").

Darkdadaah
from fr.wiktionary

2009/3/25 Yann Forget <yann@...>

> Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
> > Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
> > the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as
> copyright
> > issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most
> ugly
> > thing I have ever seen.
> >
> > Btw.: from alexa.com:
> > Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
> >
> >    - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
> >    - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
> >    - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
> >    - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
> >    - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
> >    - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
> >    - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
> >    - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
> >    - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
> >    - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
> >
> > Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...
>
> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
> attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
> Wiktionary because of the logo.
>
> > Best regards, E.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Matthieu Barba, doctorant première année
Evolution Moleculaire et Bioinformatique des Genomes
Institut de Genetique et Microbiologie, CNRS UMR 8621
Universite Paris Sud, Batiment 400
91405 Orsay Cedex, France
Tel : [phone]
http://www.igmors.u-psud.fr/Equipe-Bernard-LABEDAN.html
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[Cary Bass-4]

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I'd like to propose the following page:

<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be opened for
arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.

I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
projects and managing the page, as well.

Cary

Elisabeth Anderl wrote:

> You do get me wrong, I am not justifying the old logo, it is not a
> logo, but the new logo is not accepted by many communities and
> there is a dispute going on for long time now [1], [2], [3], [4],
> [5], and I do not recommend to force all these communities with
> something ugly like that after all these failed attempts to get
> them to accept it. If there would be someone able to design a new
> one from the scratch, something that looks more serious and not
> like a kindergarden sign, maybe that might get more projectwide
> acception.
>
> E.
>
> [1]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo#Trademark_infringement
>  [2]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-November/subject.html
>  [3]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-February/subject.html
>  [4]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-January/subject.html
>  [5]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2006-September/subject.html
>
>
>
> 2009/3/25 Yann Forget <yann@...>
>
>> Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
>>> Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue, the
>>> problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as
>> copyright
>>> issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO
>>> the most
>> ugly
>>> thing I have ever seen.
>>>
>>> Btw.: from alexa.com: Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
>>>
>>> - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo - de.wiktionary.org -
>>> 12.8% <- old logo - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo -
>>> ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1%
>>> <- old logo - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo -
>>> pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3%
>>> <- old logo - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo -
>>> el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
>>>
>>> Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...
>> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a
>> poor attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web
>> site like Wiktionary because of the logo.
>>
>>> Best regards, E.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la
>> non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
>> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
>> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>>
>> _______________________________________________ foundation-l
>> mailing list foundation-l@... Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________ foundation-l
> mailing list foundation-l@... Unsubscribe:
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[Casey Brown-3]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@...> wrote:
> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
> projects and managing the page, as well.
>

CentralNotice on all wiktionaries? :-)

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[Cary Bass-4]

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Nathan wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@...>
> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I'd like to propose the following page:
>>
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be
>> opened for arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.
>>
>> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
>> projects and managing the page, as well.
>>
>> Cary
>>
>
> Goes to the question of who determines the logo to be used, doesn't
> it? If the meta vote approves the new logo, but a vote on en.wikt
> does not, which is binding? Can meta participants vote to change
> any logo?
>
> Nathan

Of course Meta participants can vote; Wiktionary isn't solely "owned"
by the people who most actively use it. It's a Wikimedia project,
first and foremost. I generally expect most people who use Meta to
respectfully give weight to the Wiktionarians, however, and not just
"vote" on impulse. Most of us do that.

And to ensure that we have Wiktionarian participation, this is where
"advertising" comes in. It should be promoted on the Village Pumps
and mailing lists, as well as on IRC. I don't think there's much more
we can do. If people don't pay attention to any of those, then I
can't see how much interest they actually have in their community.
(of course, one could also put it up in the Sitenotice).

Cary
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[Gerard Meijssen-3]

Hoi,
With the refusal of the logo by many wiktionaries, a precedent was set. The
basis for this precedent is very much based on the autonomy of the
individual projects. For the Wiktionaries there have been several moments
where proposals failed because the perceived need for collaboration by some
projects was not shared by all projects.

When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a process will
start with a compulsory outcome. I understand the rationale for one shared
logo and favicon. The problem is that it is people outside of Wiktionary
that want to improve the Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very
much these outsiders that made the selection.

The result is known.

I am in favour of having this matter resolved. Putting time constraints on
this issue is not a good thing. The first thing I would do is inform that
this is a matter that needs to be resolved. Have the Wiktionarians discuss
this for some time and have them define and commit to a timeline. We have
all the time in the world. If it takes an extra month, two, three it takes
another month two three. What you want is a resolution and you have to get
it from the Wiktionarians.
Thanks,
       GerardM

2009/3/25 Cary Bass <cary@...>

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>
> Nathan wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> I'd like to propose the following page:
> >>
> >> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be
> >> opened for arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.
> >>
> >> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
> >> projects and managing the page, as well.
> >>
> >> Cary
> >>
> >
> > Goes to the question of who determines the logo to be used, doesn't
> > it? If the meta vote approves the new logo, but a vote on en.wikt
> > does not, which is binding? Can meta participants vote to change
> > any logo?
> >
> > Nathan
> Of course Meta participants can vote; Wiktionary isn't solely "owned"
> by the people who most actively use it. It's a Wikimedia project,
> first and foremost. I generally expect most people who use Meta to
> respectfully give weight to the Wiktionarians, however, and not just
> "vote" on impulse. Most of us do that.
>
> And to ensure that we have Wiktionarian participation, this is where
> "advertising" comes in. It should be promoted on the Village Pumps
> and mailing lists, as well as on IRC. I don't think there's much more
> we can do. If people don't pay attention to any of those, then I
> can't see how much interest they actually have in their community.
> (of course, one could also put it up in the Sitenotice).
>
> Cary
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>
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[Casey Brown-3]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@...> wrote:
> With the refusal of the logo by many wiktionaries, a precedent was set.

If a precedent was set then, then it was reversed by the successful
Wikibooks logo change: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks/Logo>

As should be the case, when that happened it was enforced and all the
projects were updated -- if they had no translation, they were given a
plane version without any words (this could later be translated and
requested on bugzilla).  The Wikibooks way is probably the best way to
go about it.

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Nathan <nawrich@...> wrote:
> Sure - the first part of what I wrote (discussing a conflict of vote
> outcomes) related specifically to Wiktionary, the second part was more
> general. Given the status of the logos as marks of the Foundation, can the
> meta community vote to change any logo?

It's not "the Meta community".  If a vote is held on Meta-Wiki in the
mainspace (not Meta: space), then it has to do with multiple projects
and we use Meta-Wiki because it is the "Wikimedia project coordination
wiki".  This means that the vote is intended for all communities and
they are the ones who vote and discuss.

> If not, what is the 'right way' to
> pursue a logo change - using a staff driven process like this one, where the
> vote is more confirmatory than determinant?

IMO, the process doesn't need to be staff-*driven*, but they need to
be involved and know about the progress of the change.  This being
said, their input would be valuable and would mean a lot -- if Jay
says "no, this isn't going to happen", I think that would either make
it so that the proposal wouldn't move forward or people would be less
likely to vote in favor of it.

--
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[Dominic-21]

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a process will
> start with a compulsory outcome. I understand the rationale for one shared
> logo and favicon. The problem is that it is people outside of Wiktionary
> that want to improve the Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very
> much these outsiders that made the selection.
>  


Exactly. Despite the fact that fr.wikt and a few others eventually
adopted the logo, the logo debacle was not en.wikt's making. It wasn't a
refusal to accept the the outcome of the proposal, it was a reluctance
to be dictated to by people who weren't a part of the community. I'm
afraid this will be interpreted the same way, if we're proposing to just
slap a sitenotice on all the Wiktionaries telling them to discuss a new
logo. There needs to be community impetus for the change, so that the
meta discussion evolves out of actual community desire for a new logo.
We should start at places like en.wikt's [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour]],
fr.wikt's [[Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie]], and es.wikt's
[[Wikcionario:Café]], not foundation-l.

Dominic

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[Cary Bass-4]

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Dominic wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>>> When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a
>>> process will start with a compulsory outcome. I understand the
>>> rationale for one shared logo and favicon. The problem is that
>>> it is people outside of Wiktionary that want to improve the
>>> Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very much these
>>> outsiders that made the selection.
>>>
>>
>
>
> Exactly. Despite the fact that fr.wikt and a few others eventually
>  adopted the logo, the logo debacle was not en.wikt's making. It
> wasn't a refusal to accept the the outcome of the proposal, it was
> a reluctance to be dictated to by people who weren't a part of the
> community. I'm afraid this will be interpreted the same way, if
> we're proposing to just slap a sitenotice on all the Wiktionaries
> telling them to discuss a new logo. There needs to be community
> impetus for the change, so that the meta discussion evolves out of
> actual community desire for a new logo. We should start at places
> like en.wikt's [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour]], fr.wikt's
> [[Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie]], and es.wikt's [[Wikcionario:Café]], not
> foundation-l.

I have to respectfully disagree that a proposal that will affect all
these projects has to originate in thirty different places.  Since
there is no central Wiktionary community, the Meta project, and
Foundation-l as well as Wiktionary-l (which was cross-posted) is the
place to get the discussion going.

While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
one logo has to be used across projects, whether or not the English
Wiktionary wants it or not.  The discussion has to get started, no
matter where it is, and meta and the two mailing lists are, in fact,
the appropriate place to start the discussion.  I do expect (and have
asked) that links to that discussion are made from those projects (and
in the Central Notice as well)

I would find it sad if the English Wiktionary were to choose not to
involve itself in a process that will ultimately affect its
appearance; however, I don't anticipate this will actually be the case.

Cary
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[Cary Bass-4]

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Cary Bass wrote:
>> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be
>> satisfied with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a
>> visual identity, one logo has to be used across projects, whether
>> or not the English Wiktionary wants it or not.
I'd like a chance to rephrase this, for poor grammar, as well as
unintended harshness.
Cary Bass wrote:

> Dominic wrote:
>> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>>>> When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a
>>>> process will start with a compulsory outcome. I understand
>>>> the rationale for one shared logo and favicon. The problem is
>>>> that it is people outside of Wiktionary that want to improve
>>>> the Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very much
>>>> these outsiders that made the selection.
>>>>
>
>> Exactly. Despite the fact that fr.wikt and a few others
>> eventually adopted the logo, the logo debacle was not en.wikt's
>> making. It wasn't a refusal to accept the the outcome of the
>> proposal, it was a reluctance to be dictated to by people who
>> weren't a part of the community. I'm afraid this will be
>> interpreted the same way, if we're proposing to just slap a
>> sitenotice on all the Wiktionaries telling them to discuss a new
>> logo. There needs to be community impetus for the change, so that
>> the meta discussion evolves out of actual community desire for a
>> new logo. We should start at places like en.wikt's
>> [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour]], fr.wikt's
>> [[Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie]], and es.wikt's [[Wikcionario:Café]],
>> not foundation-l.
> I have to respectfully disagree that a proposal that will affect
> all these projects has to originate in thirty different places.
> Since there is no central Wiktionary community, the Meta project,
> and Foundation-l as well as Wiktionary-l (which was cross-posted)
> is the place to get the discussion going.
>
> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
> with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual
> identity, one logo has to be used across projects, whether or not
> the English Wiktionary wants it or not.  The discussion has to get
> started, no matter where it is, and meta and the two mailing lists
> are, in fact, the appropriate place to start the discussion.  I do
> expect (and have asked) that links to that discussion are made from
> those projects (and in the Central Notice as well)
>
> I would find it sad if the English Wiktionary were to choose not to
>  involve itself in a process that will ultimately affect its
> appearance; however, I don't anticipate this will actually be the
> case.
>
> Cary

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The Wiktionary projects should maintain a unique visual identity.  It
is of the utmost importance that the identity be unique to Wiktionary,
but common among the projects.

Also, I want to point out:  Guillaume Paumier did a great presentation
at Wikimania 2007 on Visual Identity here:
<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:GP1>

The PDF linked has some well-researched information about Visual
Identity, and the workshop was extremely interesting.

Cary


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[Brion Vibber-3]

On 3/25/09 10:51 PM, Michael Snow wrote:
> Cary Bass wrote:
>> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
>> with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
>> one logo has to be used across projects
> My impression is that the current split is a natural result of the fact
> that nobody has yet put forward a satisfactory solution. The "classic"
> logo is not a logo at all, but has the inertia of long use.

Just as background -- I created the current logo over the course of
about 5 minutes as a placeholder, figuring it would be replaced with a
more permanent logo within a few weeks.

It's been about 6 years. :)

-- brion

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[Milos Rancic-2]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Анатолій Гончаров <ahonc.ua@...> wrote:
> I think that "new" logo is easier for creating (and translating). That's why
> I chose "new" variant of logo for uk.wiktionary logo. And community
> supported me.

At the other side, the old logo is the only WMF logo which may express
diversity inside of one language at the little bit more intelligent
way than "Slobodna енциклопедија" (cf. [1]).

This means that sh.wikt (and, possibly, sr.wikt) will wait with
adoption of the new logo until en.wikt and de.wikt adopt them.

[1] - http://sh.wiktionary.org/

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