Document system variable change in behavior

[Gene McGlasson-3]

>From the 11.4 docs:

Document contains the "long name" (access path+name) of the last file opened
or created
using the following commands:
<snip>
QR REPORT
PRINT LABEL
</endsnip>

Opening or saving a document from either editor fails to load the correct
path in the Document variable. The path is incorrect from the QR editor and
is completely missing from the Label editor. The work-around is UGLY and
demands the user be more proficient than we want to expect. Like, "You just
saved a document. Now please locate it for me so I can save it into the
database."

I filed a bug (ACI0063851) report on this and if it's an issue for others,
it may help to have multiple reports of this bug. Would that be "bugging
4D"?

--

*************************
* Gene McGlasson        *
* By The Book, Inc      *
* gene@...    *
* 406.552.0494          *
*************************



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[MIYAKO]

Hi,

let me attempt to give an explanation,
not as excuse or defense,
but to help understand the apparent contradiction in statement.

once we identify what is going on,
then we can determine what move to make,
like bug report, feature request, etc.

A: the documentation
http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU10097.HTM

Document contains the "long name" (access path+name) of the last file  
opened or created using the following commands:

QR REPORT

notice the phrase "last file opened (or created) by".

the command QR REPORT expects an incoming second parameter,
which tells the command which file to open.

http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00197.HTM

yes, you can say that the command can also "open",
or even "create" a report, (via menu),
but that kind of operation I don't think is what the documentation is  
addressing;
it is simply saying that if you pass a short name to the command,
the system variable document will be updated with the long name.

i.e.

C_TEXT(document)
QR REPORT([Table_1];"abc")

  document is now (Get 4D folder(database folder)+"abc"+".4qr")

so in that sense, the command is in line with the documentation.

B: the response from engineering

with regards to the updating of the system variable document,
after a save action via the menu,
you have already read the explanation that engineering has
deliberately opted not to update the system variable,
aware that it is not consistent with 2004.

http://forums.4d.fr/Post/FR/3050305/0/0/

in that sense,
technically there is no bug,
neither in the documentation or in the application.

there is,
however,
an inconvenience due to a feature being dropped
and lack of effective workaround.

personally I would encourage a feature request,
rather than a bug report (although I can understand the sentiment).

something like,

please create a new system variable (radical?)
editor_document (or something)
for documents that were created by one of the system editors.

(because engineering has decided not to update the document variable,
for rational reasons, I don't think we can revert the decision at this  
point)

or

please supply a new function, like

GET LAST DOCUMENT PATHS( $editor_names; $document_paths)

or

Get editor document( editor_type )

to capture the document path created using the standard GUI.

miyako

On 2009/11/05, at 6:56, Gene McGlasson wrote:

>> From the 11.4 docs:
>
> Document contains the "long name" (access path+name) of the last  
> file opened
> or created
> using the following commands:
> <snip>
> QR REPORT
> PRINT LABEL
> </endsnip>
>
> Opening or saving a document from either editor fails to load the  
> correct
> path in the Document variable. The path is incorrect from the QR  
> editor and
> is completely missing from the Label editor. The work-around is UGLY  
> and
> demands the user be more proficient than we want to expect. Like,  
> "You just
> saved a document. Now please locate it for me so I can save it into  
> the
> database."
>
> I filed a bug (ACI0063851) report on this and if it's an issue for  
> others,
> it may help to have multiple reports of this bug. Would that be  
> "bugging
> 4D"?

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[Gene McGlasson-3]

Hi Miyako,

Try this:
1. Load a QR from a document.
2. Modify the QR.
3. Select Save from the File menu.
4. Exit the QR editor.

Did this create a document. I guess not as the Document variable is empty.
Do Save as and the Document variable is correct.

Also, it was good that you used the QR REPORT as your example because if you
used PRINT LABEL you would find that the Document variable is blank when you
exit the PRINT LABEL editor no matter what you do. Show me a way to read the
documentation that is consistent with that.

Engineering has "rational" reasons to remove functionality that we've
depended on. This provides "rational" reasons to forgo the upgrade.

Miyako, I've long admired your reasoned and gentle posts to the community
and I thank you for this one.

Gene

On 11/4/09 18:29 PM, "miyako" <miyako@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> let me attempt to give an explanation,
> not as excuse or defense,
> but to help understand the apparent contradiction in statement.
>
> once we identify what is going on,
> then we can determine what move to make,
> like bug report, feature request, etc.
>
> A: the documentation
> http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU10097.HTM
>
> Document contains the "long name" (access path+name) of the last file
> opened or created using the following commands:
>
> QR REPORT
>
> notice the phrase "last file opened (or created) by".
>
> the command QR REPORT expects an incoming second parameter,
> which tells the command which file to open.
>
> http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU00197.HTM
>
> yes, you can say that the command can also "open",
> or even "create" a report, (via menu),
> but that kind of operation I don't think is what the documentation is
> addressing;
> it is simply saying that if you pass a short name to the command,
> the system variable document will be updated with the long name.
>
> i.e.
>
> C_TEXT(document)
> QR REPORT([Table_1];"abc")
>
>   document is now (Get 4D folder(database folder)+"abc"+".4qr")
>
> so in that sense, the command is in line with the documentation.
>
> B: the response from engineering
>
> with regards to the updating of the system variable document,
> after a save action via the menu,
> you have already read the explanation that engineering has
> deliberately opted not to update the system variable,
> aware that it is not consistent with 2004.
>
> http://forums.4d.fr/Post/FR/3050305/0/0/
>
> in that sense,
> technically there is no bug,
> neither in the documentation or in the application.
>
> there is,
> however,
> an inconvenience due to a feature being dropped
> and lack of effective workaround.
>
> personally I would encourage a feature request,
> rather than a bug report (although I can understand the sentiment).
>
> something like,
>
> please create a new system variable (radical?)
> editor_document (or something)
> for documents that were created by one of the system editors.
>
> (because engineering has decided not to update the document variable,
> for rational reasons, I don't think we can revert the decision at this
> point)
>
> or
>
> please supply a new function, like
>
> GET LAST DOCUMENT PATHS( $editor_names; $document_paths)
>
> or
>
> Get editor document( editor_type )
>
> to capture the document path created using the standard GUI.
>
> miyako
>
> On 2009/11/05, at 6:56, Gene McGlasson wrote:
>
>>> From the 11.4 docs:
>>
>> Document contains the "long name" (access path+name) of the last
>> file opened
>> or created
>> using the following commands:
>> <snip>
>> QR REPORT
>> PRINT LABEL
>> </endsnip>
>>
>> Opening or saving a document from either editor fails to load the
>> correct
>> path in the Document variable. The path is incorrect from the QR
>> editor and
>> is completely missing from the Label editor. The work-around is UGLY
>> and
>> demands the user be more proficient than we want to expect. Like,
>> "You just
>> saved a document. Now please locate it for me so I can save it into
>> the
>> database."
>>
>> I filed a bug (ACI0063851) report on this and if it's an issue for
>> others,
>> it may help to have multiple reports of this bug. Would that be
>> "bugging
>> 4D"?
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* By The Book, Inc      *
* gene@...    *
* 406.552.0494          *
*************************



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[MIYAKO]

Hi,

It was my negligence that I did not test PRINT LABEL.
I can confirm that

C_TEXT(document;$document)
$document:="abc.4lb"
PRINT LABEL([Table_1];$document)

does not load document with the long name for $document,

which is not the same as QR REPORT, where

C_TEXT(document;$document)
$document:="abc.4qr"
QR REPORT([Table_1];$document)

will load document with the long name for $document.

this is obviously in conflict with what is specified in the  
documentation,
http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU10097.HTM
and thus needs to be addressed as a bug.

with regards to the 2004 vs v11 difference in behavior,
I believe there is good reason to further push for compatibility.

FYI

there was an undocumented change in behavior in v11,
that affected Japanese string comparison.
the change was first perceived as inevitable and unfixable due to the  
switch to Unicode,
but after much discussion with engineering,
a new compatibility check box was introduced in 11.5. (coming soon)
I think 4D has a fairly good track record when it comes to respecting  
backward compatibility.
I truly hope a good outcome will result from this discussion.

miyako

On 2009/11/06, at 0:19, Gene McGlasson wrote:

> Also, it was good that you used the QR REPORT as your example  
> because if you
> used PRINT LABEL you would find that the Document variable is blank  
> when you
> exit the PRINT LABEL editor no matter what you do. Show me a way to  
> read the
> documentation that is consistent with that.


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[Gene McGlasson-3]

Miyako,

Thanks for the confirmation.

On 11/5/09 16:13 PM, "miyako" <miyako@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It was my negligence that I did not test PRINT LABEL.
> I can confirm that
>
> C_TEXT(document;$document)
> $document:="abc.4lb"
> PRINT LABEL([Table_1];$document)
>
> does not load document with the long name for $document,
>
> which is not the same as QR REPORT, where
>
> C_TEXT(document;$document)
> $document:="abc.4qr"
> QR REPORT([Table_1];$document)
>
> will load document with the long name for $document.
>
> this is obviously in conflict with what is specified in the
> documentation,
> http://www.4d.com/docs/CMU/CMU10097.HTM
> and thus needs to be addressed as a bug.
>
> with regards to the 2004 vs v11 difference in behavior,
> I believe there is good reason to further push for compatibility.
>
> FYI
>
> there was an undocumented change in behavior in v11,
> that affected Japanese string comparison.
> the change was first perceived as inevitable and unfixable due to the
> switch to Unicode,
> but after much discussion with engineering,
> a new compatibility check box was introduced in 11.5. (coming soon)
> I think 4D has a fairly good track record when it comes to respecting
> backward compatibility.
> I truly hope a good outcome will result from this discussion.
>
> miyako
>
> On 2009/11/06, at 0:19, Gene McGlasson wrote:
>
>> Also, it was good that you used the QR REPORT as your example
>> because if you
>> used PRINT LABEL you would find that the Document variable is blank
>> when you
>> exit the PRINT LABEL editor no matter what you do. Show me a way to
>> read the
>> documentation that is consistent with that.
>
>
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>    
>
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*************************
* Gene McGlasson        *
* By The Book, Inc      *
* gene@...    *
* 406.552.0494          *
*************************



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