Does everything depend on everything?

[Rick Pasotto]

Today dpkg and dpkg-dev showed up as being held back. When I ran

aptitude -s install dpkg dpkg-dev

the result was that kdebase, kicker, kpersonalizer, ksplash, and
libkonq5 became BROKEN.

Something is wrong somewhere if updating required core packages breaks
optional packages.

--
"Life is like an over long drama through which we sit being nagged
 by the vague memories of having read the reviews." -- John Updike
    Rick Pasotto    rick@...    http://www.niof.net


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[celejar]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:28:28 -0400
Rick Pasotto <rick@...> wrote:

> Today dpkg and dpkg-dev showed up as being held back. When I ran
>
> aptitude -s install dpkg dpkg-dev
>
> the result was that kdebase, kicker, kpersonalizer, ksplash, and
> libkonq5 became BROKEN.
>
> Something is wrong somewhere if updating required core packages breaks
> optional packages.

Why does anything have to be wrong?  It just means that you'll have to
wait to upgrade the core packages until newer versions of the optional
packages, compatible with the new core packages, become available.

I assume that you're running testing or unstable?  This sort of thing
is not uncommon with those flavors, IIUC.

Celejar
--
foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Dave Sherohman-3]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 09:49:08AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> Why does anything have to be wrong?  It just means that you'll have to
> wait to upgrade the core packages until newer versions of the optional
> packages, compatible with the new core packages, become available.
>
> I assume that you're running testing or unstable?  This sort of thing
> is not uncommon with those flavors, IIUC.

Expected, even.  That's why they're *called* "testing" (as in, "it's not
fully-tested yet, so it may break") and "unstable" (as in, "it's not
stable").

--
Dave Sherohman


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Micha Feigin]

On 31/10/2009 11:57, Dave Sherohman wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 09:49:08AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>> Why does anything have to be wrong?  It just means that you'll have to
>> wait to upgrade the core packages until newer versions of the optional
>> packages, compatible with the new core packages, become available.
>>
>> I assume that you're running testing or unstable?  This sort of thing
>> is not uncommon with those flavors, IIUC.
>
> Expected, even.  That's why they're *called* "testing" (as in, "it's not
> fully-tested yet, so it may break") and "unstable" (as in, "it's not
> stable").
>

actually it's unstable as we only tested it very little and sometimes packages
don't go in all at the same time and you have to wait a bit, but it will be
sorted in a couple of days. It's mostly upstream stable packages though except
for software that's in beta in the first place.

Testing is as in it's already been tested for several weeks in unstable and
found to be stable enough but another version of stable is not due for a couple
of years.

For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.

Stable is as in it's been tested for a year, will not change for the next couple
of years and you can put it on a server that you will not turn off for the next
several months not to mention update anything other than security updates.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Micha wrote:

[snip some talk about testing and unstable]

> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.

Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
time and it works great.

YMMV, of course.

- --
Johannes

Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
Liberia, and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkrsRGsACgkQC1NzPRl9qEWztQCfZIA9bMiDEKAeFrEftw/Urhaq
/eIAmwS9Sj5MU9HwX5RLqbgGtLqAhiXY
=+29K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Micha Feigin]

On 31/10/2009 16:06, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Micha wrote:
>
> [snip some talk about testing and unstable]
>
>> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.
>
> Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
> time and it works great.

I also know people who still run windows 98 and it works great, it doesn't mean
that it's the right desktop solution

>
> YMMV, of course.
>
> - --
> Johannes
>
> Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
> of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
> Liberia, and the United States.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkrsRGsACgkQC1NzPRl9qEWztQCfZIA9bMiDEKAeFrEftw/Urhaq
> /eIAmwS9Sj5MU9HwX5RLqbgGtLqAhiXY
> =+29K
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Dennis Wicks-2]

Johannes Wiedersich wrote the following on 10/31/2009 09:06 AM:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Micha wrote:
>
> [snip some talk about testing and unstable]
>
>> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.
>
> Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
> time and it works great.
>
> YMMV, of course.
>
> - --
> Johannes
>
> Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
> of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
> Liberia, and the United States.

As long as you don't need any new features or programs there
is no need to ever upgrade. That is generally my situation.

My wife however, is always discovering something new that
she wants to do. The latest is video creation and editing
and at least two of the programs she wanted to try out
required versions of libraries, etc., only available in
Squeeze and newer.

Dennis

- --
Sadly, only three nations have the good sense not to spend
10's of millions of their GNP converting to Yet Another
Arbitrary System Of Measurement. Burma, Liberia, and the
United States.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Micha wrote:
> On 31/10/2009 16:06, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
>>>> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.
>>
>> Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
>> time and it works great.
>
> I also know people who still run windows 98 and it works great, it
> doesn't mean that it's the right desktop solution

The fact that you compare lenny to win98 just tells us that you don't
know much about debian (and/or about win98).

As I wrote, your mileage may vary and there can be valid reasons to use
testing or sid on workstations. One of the is that the next stable
version of workstation software will benefit from a larger number of
testers.

However, your claim that 'stable is not a right desktop solution' is an
offence against our developers and the security team who put a lot of
work and effort in releasing stable versions of gnome, kde, iceweasel to
name a few -- and then continue their efforts and work on security
updates for those workstation packages.

BTW, did I mention that lenny works great as a desktop system?

Please try to convince the people running win98 to run it inside a
virtual machine on a lenny system and continue trolling somewhere else,
not here.

- --
Johannes

Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
Liberia, and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkrsehgACgkQC1NzPRl9qEXScwCfVjqLblwtE7M5zCgCRvshRro/
QkgAnikuUUwjBZqeiHY2umTv8pm3nVZ+
=fj8t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Norbert Zeh]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:46:34AM -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:

> Johannes Wiedersich wrote the following on 10/31/2009 09:06 AM:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Micha wrote:
>>
>> [snip some talk about testing and unstable]
>>
>>> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.
>>
>> Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
>> time and it works great.
>>
>> YMMV, of course.
>>
>> - --
>> Johannes
>>
>> Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
>> of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
>> Liberia, and the United States.
>
> As long as you don't need any new features or programs there is no need
> to ever upgrade. That is generally my situation.
>
> My wife however, is always discovering something new that she wants to
> do. The latest is video creation and editing and at least two of the
> programs she wanted to try out required versions of libraries, etc., only
> available in Squeeze and newer.

My solution to this situation is to run a mixed system.  It gives me the
the stability of tried and tested software that Lenny provides but
allows me to upgrade to a new version from testing/sid for applications
where I really feel I need it.  All the dependencies are then pulled in.

BTW: I wholeheartedly second that Lenny is great as desktop system.
Comparing this to Win98 is more than ridiculous because we're not
talking about an OS version from a different era, only about packages
that are a few minor version numbers back.  In most cases, the
functionality is nearly where the testing/sid versions are.  When
there's a huge gap, that's when I may decide to pull in the latter.

Cheers,
Norbert


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Micha Feigin]

On 31/10/2009 19:55, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Micha wrote:
>> On 31/10/2009 16:06, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
>>>>> For a desktop you want one of these but there is a debate which.
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
>>> time and it works great.
>>
>> I also know people who still run windows 98 and it works great, it
>> doesn't mean that it's the right desktop solution
>
> The fact that you compare lenny to win98 just tells us that you don't
> know much about debian (and/or about win98).
>

I think I do know a few things about both, probably more than you. I've been
with debian since 1997 on multiple setups (desktops to servers to clusters), did
embedded Linux/kernel work and abused every version of Microsoft since Dos one
point something.

I'll grant that maybe a better comparison would have been windows NT. Stable but
ancient. Would run that either. Same with word 97 which is a bit more mature
that the version of openoffice in Lenny.

> As I wrote, your mileage may vary and there can be valid reasons to use
> testing or sid on workstations. One of the is that the next stable
> version of workstation software will benefit from a larger number of
> testers.
>

Servers tend to run on older hardware, desktop tend to run on newer hardware
that usually only partially supported by stable.

> However, your claim that 'stable is not a right desktop solution' is an
> offence against our developers and the security team who put a lot of
> work and effort in releasing stable versions of gnome, kde, iceweasel to
> name a few -- and then continue their efforts and work on security
> updates for those workstation packages.
>

I generally find that the software is so old that I can't collaborate with
anyone and some non critical bugs just stay around for years (literally). Also
half the hardware doesn't work on laptops and newer desktops.

> BTW, did I mention that lenny works great as a desktop system?
>
> Please try to convince the people running win98 to run it inside a
> virtual machine on a lenny system and continue trolling somewhere else,
> not here.
>

I feel that pushing lenny on unsuspecting newbies just makes them run screaming
from linux. I'm a traditionalist in most things but archeology is good for long
running servers, not for desktops that need to run on new hardware and
collaborate with other people.

The last cluster I setup won't even boot on Lenny, to tell the truth it won't
even have network even with testing, not to mention a few other things.

And as for virtual machine, I'm wondering if I can get a current virtual machine
run on Lenny.

My experience over the last 12 years or so is that stable, testing, unstable
talks more about how volatile the distribution is rather than how stable it
actually is.

> - --
> Johannes
>
> Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
> of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
> Liberia, and the United States.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkrsehgACgkQC1NzPRl9qEXScwCfVjqLblwtE7M5zCgCRvshRro/
> QkgAnikuUUwjBZqeiHY2umTv8pm3nVZ+
> =fj8t
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dennis Wicks wrote:
> Sadly, only three nations have the good sense not to spend 10's of
> millions of their GNP converting to Yet Another Arbitrary System Of
> Measurement. Burma, Liberia, and the United States.

FWIW, I don't think that it makes sense that different countries, etc.
use different sets of standards. The standards [1] of the ISO [2] are
not 'Yet Another Arbitrary System Of Measurement'. They are *the* common
standard that exists. All other systems are arbitrary (ie. different for
different countries, different purposes, etc.).

Note that this very mailing list would not exist in its present form, if
instead of a common standard there were different implementations for
email for the different applications and/or countries. There are many
more examples, why common standards are important.

Johannes

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units

[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards_organizations#International_Standards_Organizations
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkrspoUACgkQC1NzPRl9qEVNEQCfV+lo95RVEBi1yiQ63TY6l+Ao
SYMAniNYXcUsWjyQS7yxc9qKFdsOB0vF
=8oZ7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Lee Winter]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Johannes Wiedersich
<johannes@...> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dennis Wicks wrote:
>> Sadly, only three nations have the good sense not to spend 10's of
>> millions of their GNP converting to Yet Another Arbitrary System Of
>> Measurement. Burma, Liberia, and the United States.
>
> FWIW, I don't think that it makes sense that different countries, etc.
> use different sets of standards. The standards [1] of the ISO [2] are
> not 'Yet Another Arbitrary System Of Measurement'. They are *the* common
> standard that exists.

I wish that were true, but it is not.  It is just ISO propoganda.

> All other systems are arbitrary (ie. different for
> different countries, different purposes, etc.).

Wrong.  The system of natural units is not arbitrary.  So it is the
One True System if you want to get religious about it.

However, the individual metrics in all possible systems, including
those based on natural units, have several equivalent forms, the
choice of which is necessarily arbitrary, but only slightly.

>
> Note that this very mailing list would not exist in its present form, if
> instead of a common standard there were different implementations for
> email for the different applications and/or countries.

By that reasoning the US component of this mailing list is necessarily
incompatible with the rest of the internet.  Since that conclusion is
manifestly false either your factr or your reasoning is wrong.  IMHO
both are.

> There are many
> more examples, why common standards are important.

That statement confuses "common" with "right", which is a serious
error.  It also implicitly assumes that "common standards" are
intolerant of alternatives, which is also manifestly wrong.

And at one time the ISO system was uncommon, so it would have been
subject to the same criticisms that you now level against its
competitors.  That indicates that your assertions are based on the
shifting sands of history and its accidents rather than on objectively
measureable merits.  So why should anyone care about the current fads
of metricians?  After all they are certain to change. (C.F. the
shrinkage in the ISO national standards for weight as compared to the
master standard.)

Please consider these propositions:

    Resolved: that the existence of standards is a Good Thing(tm).

    Resolved: that the existence of standards zealotry is a Bad Thing(tm).

Since we have adequate standards we should not tolerate any kind of
standards zealotry.

-- Lee

P.S.  Astute observers will note that the Imperial/American system of
units has already been converted to an ISO basis.  That is why the
modern inch is DEFINED to be 2.54 cm.  -- L.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[John Hasler]

Lee Winter writes:
> Astute observers will note that the Imperial/American system of units
> has already been converted to an ISO basis.  

And that the metric system has been an official standard and legal for
trade in the USA since 1866.  The USA was one of the original
signatories to the Metre Convention.  International metric standards
have been the fundamental standards for length and mass in the USA since
1893.

> That is why the modern inch is DEFINED to be 2.54 cm.  -- L.

As of 1959.

The difference is that US residents are still permitted the liberty of
using the units with which they are comfortable rather than those which
the all-knowing government imposes.

Of course, "units" is always there to do the conversions for you...
--
John Hasler


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[owens-4]

>
>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: johannes@...
>To: debian-user@...
>Subject: RE: OT: Standards was Re: Does everything depend on
>everything?
>Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:05:09 +0100
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>Dennis Wicks wrote:
>>> Sadly, only three nations have the good sense not to spend 10's of
>>> millions of their GNP converting to Yet Another Arbitrary System
>Of
>>> Measurement. Burma, Liberia, and the United States.
>>
>>FWIW, I don't think that it makes sense that different countries,
>etc.
>>use different sets of standards. The standards [1] of the ISO [2]
>are
>>not 'Yet Another Arbitrary System Of Measurement'. They are *the*
>common
>>standard that exists. All other systems are arbitrary (ie. different
>for
>>different countries, different purposes, etc.).
>>
>>Note that this very mailing list would not exist in its present
>form, if
>>instead of a common standard there were different implementations
>for
>>email for the different applications and/or countries. There are
>many
>>more examples, why common standards are important.
>>
>>Johannes
>>
>>[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
>>
>>[2]
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards_organizations#International_S
>tandards_Organizations
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>>iEYEARECAAYFAkrspoUACgkQC1NzPRl9qEVNEQCfV+lo95RVEBi1yiQ63TY6l+Ao
>>SYMAniNYXcUsWjyQS7yxc9qKFdsOB0vF
>>=8oZ7
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>

In support of Johannes there is a common set of standard units in
Physics called SI (The International System of Units).  Use of SI
allows the computation of quantities as simple as Force to as complex
as Entropy without having to worry about unit conversion.
Larry
>>
>>--
>>To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
>>with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
listmaster@...
>>
>>



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John Hasler wrote:
> The difference is that US residents are still permitted the liberty of
> using the units with which they are comfortable rather than those which
> the all-knowing government imposes.
>
> Of course, "units" is always there to do the conversions for you...

Unfortunately "units" fails to convert any of my nice set of metric
allen wrenches to 3/64 inch. And that is the point of my signature. The
US system of units puts unnecessary barriers on trade and use of
hardware from other countries.

- --
Johannes

Three nations have not officially adopted the International System
of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma,
Liberia, and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_units
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkruza8ACgkQC1NzPRl9qEW8YQCfZD5XaSb8dHZbjDgIKDrK0HyN
+/sAnAvcOZO3NzYUt0u8S6K7YSU4lUdb
=niAr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

On Saturday 31 October 2009 12:55:36 Johannes Wiedersich wrote:

> Micha wrote:
> > On 31/10/2009 16:06, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> >> I've been running 'lenny' on my workstations for some
> >> time and it works great.
> >
> > I also know people who still run windows 98 and it works great, it
> > doesn't mean that it's the right desktop solution
>
> As I wrote, your mileage may vary and there can be valid reasons to use
> testing or sid on workstations. One of the is that the next stable
> version of workstation software will benefit from a larger number of
> testers.
>
> However, your claim that 'stable is not a right desktop solution' is an
> offence against our developers and the security team who put a lot of
> work and effort in releasing stable versions of gnome, kde, iceweasel to
> name a few -- and then continue their efforts and work on security
> updates for those workstation packages.

+1

> BTW, did I mention that lenny works great as a desktop system?

I agree, mostly.  I wanted to try out the latest-and-greatest KDE 4.2, so I've
pulled them from the Squeeze repositories, but current stable is actually very
good for desktop use.

Running Squeeze (and especially Sid) requires more knowledge than running
Lenny, and (for me) the advantages are not that great.  Even fairly severe
bugs in testing don't get always fixed until trickle-down from unstable, which
means you'll want to run a mixed system anyway.  Either that or run pure
unstable and have to fight dependencies during each transition (many of which
happen during a release cycle).

By the time you have enough knowledge to run a mixed system and/or fight those
dependencies, you might as well run stable for most software, which occasional
installs out of testing/unstable/experimental for the new features you need or
development you are following.

I recommend Debian stable for a computer you want to use for work or play,
desktop or otherwise.  If you want to experiment with Debian, or if you just
can't be satisfied with the software in the latest release, I recommend a
fully-mixed system <http://iguanasuicide.net/node/4>.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.           ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...             ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/            \_/

[celejar]

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:38:55 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@...> wrote:

...

> system anyway.  Either that or run pure unstable and have to fight
> dependencies during each transition (many of which happen during a
> release cycle).
>
> By the time you have enough knowledge to run a mixed system and/or
> fight those dependencies, you might as well run stable for most
> software, which occasional installs out of
> testing/unstable/experimental for the new features you need or
> development you are following.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by 'fighting
dependencies'.  I run Sid, and while I occasionally have to hold back
a few packages, and can't always do a complete, full upgrade, it's
simply a matter of holding back a few packages until they get into sync
again; I certainly don't have the skill to do anything particularly
sophisticated with dependencies.

Celejar
--
foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

On Monday 02 November 2009 13:47:05 Celejar wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:38:55 -0600
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@...> wrote:
> > system anyway.  Either that or run pure unstable and have to fight
> > dependencies during each transition (many of which happen during a
> > release cycle).
> >
> > By the time you have enough knowledge to run a mixed system and/or
> > fight those dependencies, you might as well run stable for most
> > software, which occasional installs out of
> > testing/unstable/experimental for the new features you need or
> > development you are following.
>
> I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by 'fighting
> dependencies'.  I run Sid, and while I occasionally have to hold back
> a few packages, and can't always do a complete, full upgrade, it's
> simply a matter of holding back a few packages until they get into sync
> again; I certainly don't have the skill to do anything particularly
> sophisticated with dependencies.

That, among other things, is exactly what I mean by fighting dependencies.  
Sometimes I am not happy with a package that is held back, which calls for
more dependency wrangling.  Downgrade or upgrade something else, de-install
some software I'm not really using right now (like a Recommend or Suggest),
satisfy an OR dependency with a different package, or some combination of the
three.  Keeping the number of packages I pull from
testing/unstable/experimental as minimal as possible results in more (aptitude
safe-upgrade)s that "just work".

Mixed systems are just as "supported" as running testing or unstable, which is
to say, not officially.  IME, they result in a system with the advantages of
both stable and unstable.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.           ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...             ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/            \_/

[Jochen Schulz-2]

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.:

> On Monday 02 November 2009 13:47:05 Celejar wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by 'fighting
>> dependencies'.  I run Sid, and while I occasionally have to hold back
>> a few packages, and can't always do a complete, full upgrade, it's
>> simply a matter of holding back a few packages until they get into sync
>> again; I certainly don't have the skill to do anything particularly
>> sophisticated with dependencies.
>
> That, among other things, is exactly what I mean by fighting dependencies.  
> Sometimes I am not happy with a package that is held back, which calls for
> more dependency wrangling.  Downgrade or upgrade something else, de-install
> some software I'm not really using right now (like a Recommend or Suggest),
> satisfy an OR dependency with a different package, or some combination of the
> three.  Keeping the number of packages I pull from
> testing/unstable/experimental as minimal as possible results in more (aptitude
> safe-upgrade)s that "just work".

My sid safe-upgrades in sid usually "just work". I am a long-time sid
user (>5 years) and the current state (the LVM<->Gnome problem) is a
rare exception. I don't recommend running sid, but to be honest, it
almost always runs smoothly on machines I update daily.

It's a different beast when you upgrade only once a month. I have a
seldomly used and therefore irregularly updated machine which suffers
from problems more often. But that may just be my misguided perception
because the machine has an nVidia card. ;-)

Another reason for my "success" may be the fact that in the past I most
often found it easier to reinstall on certain occasions (disk exchange,
re-partitioning) than to restore from a backup (which in turn may be due
to the fact that most of the time I don't have a recent backup). My
installations never get really old. Now I finally use LVM, so I hope
these special occasions happen less often. :)

> Mixed systems are just as "supported" as running testing or unstable, which is
> to say, not officially.  IME, they result in a system with the advantages of
> both stable and unstable.

Running testing/unstable might not be "supported", but that's what the
developers/maintainers are working at. If sid is broken, they fix it.

J.
--
In this bunker there are women and children. There are no weapons.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
                 <http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

On Monday 02 November 2009 16:31:26 Jochen Schulz wrote:
> Another reason for my "success" may be the fact that in the past I most
> often found it easier to reinstall on certain occasions (disk exchange,
> re-partitioning) than to restore from a backup (which in turn may be due
> to the fact that most of the time I don't have a recent backup). My
> installations never get really old. Now I finally use LVM, so I hope
> these special occasions happen less often. :)

I didn't install Debian until a while after I was fed up with Gentoo.  So, my
oldest install was originally Etch.  I virtually never reinstall unless I'm
switching distros.  Upgrading openSUSE from 10.3 to 11.0 wasn't even
supported, but I didn't even consider a re-install.

> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.:
> > Mixed systems are just as "supported" as running testing or unstable,
> > which is to say, not officially.  IME, they result in a system with the
> > advantages of both stable and unstable.
>
> Running testing/unstable might not be "supported", but that's what the
> developers/maintainers are working at. If sid is broken, they fix it.

You don't have to run unstable to be a maintainer.  Source packages should be
compiled in a Sid environment before being sent to the buildds, but there's a
lot of good ways to compile in a unstable environment without running
unstable.  It's also suggested to use unstable's lintian most of the time,
especially when (like now) it installs on stable or testing without any other
package from testing/unstable.

You should test your package as much as possible, but if you don't have a
running unstable installation, you do not have to test your package there.

The developers/maintainers also work on stable (RC bugs, e.g.) and that is the
product they have agreed to provide official support for.

Of course, unstable is not meant to imply that repository is full of bugs.  It
just means that it changes often.  Unfortunately, change it often the source
of bugs, and I, most of the time, prefer older software that may be missing
features (stable) rather than constantly fluctuating software that may or may
not have the feature I need working today.

To all those out there that do, thanks for running testing or unstable.  The
more bugs you find the better the stable release is for me. >:)
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.           ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...             ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/            \_/