Doing a gearbox / engine overhaul. Some questions.

[Jerry-32]

Hi all,

I've mostly been a lurker until now.  My `99 1200 is now up on my lift in order to remove the engine.   At 52,000 miles the transmission developed a distinct ratcheting like clicking sound in 4th gear only.  For a while I was able to just skip 4th but I knew it would only get worse and it did.  On the last outing it rapidly detereiorated to the point where it resisteed starting out in first as if the brakes were on and began tightening and loosening the drive chain (I think) as i finally made it home.  The last 10 miles were pretty iffy and I should have shut it down and gone for my truck but I thought I could get her home on her own power and I did.   The first thing I looked for was metal in the oil and I must say there is some but not as much as I thought there would be and the oil filter is fairly free of metal. The whole time this was happening the shifter worked fine so at this point I'm thinking missing teeth on a couple of gears?  Broken dogs on a slider? Possibly a disslocated bearing?  That sort of thing.

Anyway, this is about as big a job as you can do on these bikes and I'm wondering what to do about the engine?  It's running great and using almost no oil (Mobil 1) between 6000 mile changes.  Do I just fix the trans and leave the engine alone or tear it all down for a complete overhaul?  Opinions please.  

Forunately this didn't happen last month on my 2000 mile trip around the Canadian Rockies and British Columbia. This has been a great sport/tourer that I'm pretty attached to and the high cost of replacement makes me not even want to go shopping, especially since these bikes don't sell for very much on the used market.  Maybe I should just shop for another good used one and save mine for spares and parting out on ebay?

Just examining my options here and would appreciate your input, thanks.

Jerry Kaplan
Davis, CA

[Kevin B-2]

Winter is coming; you've nothing better to do on those dark nights. It's also a good excuse not to go out in the rain, cold and salted roads.

Or, winter is coming, bikes are even cheaper now. Buy a replacement just before Christmas when people are desperate to sell and save a fortune.

Or, do both!

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "jerrykap@..." <jerrykap@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I've mostly been a lurker until now.  My `99 1200 is now up on my lift in order to remove the engine.   At 52,000 miles the transmission developed a distinct ratcheting like clicking sound in 4th gear only.  For a while I was able to just skip 4th but I knew it would only get worse and it did.  On the last outing it rapidly detereiorated to the point where it resisteed starting out in first as if the brakes were on and began tightening and loosening the drive chain (I think) as i finally made it home.  The last 10 miles were pretty iffy and I should have shut it down and gone for my truck but I thought I could get her home on her own power and I did.   The first thing I looked for was metal in the oil and I must say there is some but not as much as I thought there would be and the oil filter is fairly free of metal. The whole time this was happening the shifter worked fine so at this point I'm thinking missing teeth on a couple of gears?  Broken dogs on a slider? Possibly a disslocated bearing?  That sort of thing.
>
> Anyway, this is about as big a job as you can do on these bikes and I'm wondering what to do about the engine?  It's running great and using almost no oil (Mobil 1) between 6000 mile changes.  Do I just fix the trans and leave the engine alone or tear it all down for a complete overhaul?  Opinions please.  
>
> Forunately this didn't happen last month on my 2000 mile trip around the Canadian Rockies and British Columbia. This has been a great sport/tourer that I'm pretty attached to and the high cost of replacement makes me not even want to go shopping, especially since these bikes don't sell for very much on the used market.  Maybe I should just shop for another good used one and save mine for spares and parting out on ebay?
>
> Just examining my options here and would appreciate your input, thanks.
>
> Jerry Kaplan
> Davis, CA
>

[philipwallington]

My 2 cents - well pence really!!

If it ain't broke - don't fix it. At 52k it's just nicely run in - just check the regular items for my money - valve clearances, timing chain, etc.

Do, however, remember to loosen the chain sprocket nut before you get too far with the teardown - they can be just a little tight!!

Philip

[Robert-321]

Unless there is a compelling reason to go into the engine, I would not.

as for your 4th gear problem.  I'll leave the engine in the frame and remove the oil pan and look up inside from under the machine.  The gear train will be visible (been there done that).  Only after you have confirmed the problem would I remove it from the frame.  These engines are fairly bullet proof with decent care.

Yours is the first one I have heard of with a problem such as this.

In my case I pulled the pan as I was looking for a lost fastener which fell into the pan. It was one of the screws that holds the pick up coil in place.  I knew how it got there, knew when it happened, and I knew what I needed to do.

The job was "learning experience".  Make sure you get new gaskets.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA



--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Kevin B <kandlbarrett@...> wrote:

From: Kevin B <kandlbarrett@...>
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Doing a gearbox / engine overhaul.  Some questions.
To: TriumphTrophy@...
Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 1:33 PM






 




   
                  Winter is coming; you've nothing better to do on those dark nights. It's also a good excuse not to go out in the rain, cold and salted roads.



Or, winter is coming, bikes are even cheaper now. Buy a replacement just before Christmas when people are desperate to sell and save a fortune.



Or, do both!



--- In TriumphTrophy@ yahoogroups. com, "jerrykap@.. ." <jerrykap@.. .> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> I've mostly been a lurker until now.  My `99 1200 is now up on my lift in order to remove the engine.   At 52,000 miles the transmission developed a distinct ratcheting like clicking sound in 4th gear only.  For a while I was able to just skip 4th but I knew it would only get worse and it did.  On the last outing it rapidly detereiorated to the point where it resisteed starting out in first as if the brakes were on and began tightening and loosening the drive chain (I think) as i finally made it home.  The last 10 miles were pretty iffy and I should have shut it down and gone for my truck but I thought I could get her home on her own power and I did.   The first thing I looked for was metal in the oil and I must say there is some but not as much as I thought there would be and the oil filter is fairly free of metal. The whole time this was happening the shifter worked fine so at this point I'm thinking missing teeth on a couple of gears?  Broken dogs
 on a slider? Possibly a disslocated bearing?  That sort of thing.

>

> Anyway, this is about as big a job as you can do on these bikes and I'm wondering what to do about the engine?  It's running great and using almost no oil (Mobil 1) between 6000 mile changes.  Do I just fix the trans and leave the engine alone or tear it all down for a complete overhaul?  Opinions please.  

>

> Forunately this didn't happen last month on my 2000 mile trip around the Canadian Rockies and British Columbia. This has been a great sport/tourer that I'm pretty attached to and the high cost of replacement makes me not even want to go shopping, especially since these bikes don't sell for very much on the used market.  Maybe I should just shop for another good used one and save mine for spares and parting out on ebay?

>

> Just examining my options here and would appreciate your input, thanks..

>

> Jerry Kaplan

> Davis, CA

>




 

     

   
   
       
         
       
       








       


       
       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[christopher king-2]

I have an '01 BBBB it only has 30,400 miles on it of which I put 15,000 miles in the last 2 years since I just bought it 2 years ago. It is the third trophy I have owned. They have all been good bikes. Unfortunately this one started having problems with fourth gear and finally the transmission locked up. Having more time than money I have taken it upon myself to broaden my mechanical skills, the bike is all aprt now with the engine out and transmission apart . I have found one broken selector fork and 3 broken teeth from 2 sprockets, I dont plan on doing anything to the engine since it was running fine.

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "jerrykap@..." <jerrykap@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I've mostly been a lurker until now.  My `99 1200 is now up on my lift in order to remove the engine.   At 52,000 miles the transmission developed a distinct ratcheting like clicking sound in 4th gear only.  For a while I was able to just skip 4th but I knew it would only get worse and it did.  On the last outing it rapidly detereiorated to the point where it resisteed starting out in first as if the brakes were on and began tightening and loosening the drive chain (I think) as i finally made it home.  The last 10 miles were pretty iffy and I should have shut it down and gone for my truck but I thought I could get her home on her own power and I did.   The first thing I looked for was metal in the oil and I must say there is some but not as much as I thought there would be and the oil filter is fairly free of metal. The whole time this was happening the shifter worked fine so at this point I'm thinking missing teeth on a couple of gears?  Broken dogs on a slider? Possibly a disslocated bearing?  That sort of thing.
>
> Anyway, this is about as big a job as you can do on these bikes and I'm wondering what to do about the engine?  It's running great and using almost no oil (Mobil 1) between 6000 mile changes.  Do I just fix the trans and leave the engine alone or tear it all down for a complete overhaul?  Opinions please.  
>
> Forunately this didn't happen last month on my 2000 mile trip around the Canadian Rockies and British Columbia. This has been a great sport/tourer that I'm pretty attached to and the high cost of replacement makes me not even want to go shopping, especially since these bikes don't sell for very much on the used market.  Maybe I should just shop for another good used one and save mine for spares and parting out on ebay?
>
> Just examining my options here and would appreciate your input, thanks.
>
> Jerry Kaplan
> Davis, CA
>

[Jacques, Martin, VF-Group]

Jerry,

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I am afraid I would recommend going into the engine, or even replacing the whole thing. The gearbox and engine share the same oil, if you get small fragments of metal in the oil, they will likely work their way around the engine destroying the cam bearings, main bearings and probably camshafts.

My original 2003 engine became hugely rattly at 25k miles. Found metal in the oil (still no clue where from) and the cam/main bearings had really been scored. I ended up fiting another lower mileage '02 engine I bought for £500.

Swapping a whole engine is a lot easier than fixing a broken gearbox, but naturally depends on availability and price of a good used engine.

Martin.
03 1200 in Graphite, 38k miles.
Bath, UK.

[Poppa Jack]

Very sound advise Bro!
    Poppa
On Nov 2, 2009, at 6:30 AM, mjj_zx6rr wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I am afraid I would recommend  
> going into the engine, or even replacing the whole thing. The  
> gearbox and engine share the same oil, if you get small fragments  
> of metal in the oil, they will likely work their way around the  
> engine destroying the cam bearings, main bearings and probably  
> camshafts.
>
> My original 2003 engine became hugely rattly at 25k miles. Found  
> metal in the oil (still no clue where from) and the cam/main  
> bearings had really been scored. I ended up fiting another lower  
> mileage '02 engine I bought for £500.
>
> Swapping a whole engine is a lot easier than fixing a broken  
> gearbox, but naturally depends on availability and price of a good  
> used engine.
>
> Martin.
> 03 1200 in Graphite, 38k miles.
> Bath, UK.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jerry-32]

Thanks to all of you for your advice and opinions, it's appreciated.

I now have the offending parts in hand after a 12 hour teardown. The 3rd & 4th gear slider on the input shaft is damaged and the 4th gear output is chunked off about 9 teeth. Almost all the bits were recovered in the sump and very few small steel fragments were on the various screens and in the oil fiter.  I also did a thorough sweep with a good magnet.  

Based on what I'm seeing, I'm inclined towards only fixing what's broken.  It's always been a sweet running engine with oil consumption almost nil. The crankshaft mains look like new, the insides of the engine are spic and span, a testament to full synthetic oils (Mobil1 changed at 6000 intervals). I'm quite certain I'll get a good result and it does help that I'm a pretty experienced wrench (spannerman to you Brits)working in a very decent home shop.
 
However, in order to hedge my bet I'll be looking for a good used motor to present itself.  All leads are welcome.

Now here's my advice: Don't be lazy with your foot shifting your bike, especially into 4th.  I believe this whole broken gear issue could have been avoided in the first place if I made more positive shifts into 4th.  My gearbox has always been buttery smooth and ocasionaly I would lazily shift up into 4th and not fully engage it.  The result being a false neutral, skyrocketing revs and a huge jerk as you instinctively engage the gear again.  This may have happened 20 times or more over the 52,000 miles of enjoying this bike.  Obviously a few times too many.

Anyway, I've always thought of this bike as a long term keeper as I'm so comfortable on it.  Plus the resale value is too low, in my opinion, and the repacement cost is too high.  The only thing I wished it had was ABS brakes.  I've managed all this time without that feature so I guess I'll just carry on.

Thanks,

Jerry Kaplan
Davis, CA

PS  I enjoyed Bath very much when I was there in 2004
--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "mjj_zx6rr" <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

>
> Jerry,
>
> Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I am afraid I would recommend going into the engine, or even replacing the whole thing. The gearbox and engine share the same oil, if you get small fragments of metal in the oil, they will likely work their way around the engine destroying the cam bearings, main bearings and probably camshafts.
>
> My original 2003 engine became hugely rattly at 25k miles. Found metal in the oil (still no clue where from) and the cam/main bearings had really been scored. I ended up fiting another lower mileage '02 engine I bought for £500.
>
> Swapping a whole engine is a lot easier than fixing a broken gearbox, but naturally depends on availability and price of a good used engine.
>
> Martin.
> 03 1200 in Graphite, 38k miles.
> Bath, UK.
>

[Robert-321]

Thats good news Jerry:


If you have all of the metal bits out (try matching them up to the broken parts) you should be fine. The only worry is if there were small shavings etc that got in to a rod bearing or the valve train.

While going back together and the engine is out, I'd look at the clutch plates (They should be fine) and consider replacing the cam chain adjuster.  It might be a real easy time to do the valve check / Adjustment.  With all of this done, you should be good for another 12,000 miles before you need to do anything to the engine besides changing the oil.

I would after putting it all back together run a short cycle on the next oil change. Maybe only a few hundred miles. And then check the filter.

Make sure when you go back together that you replace the oil pan gasket. The have a knack of leaking if you try to re-use them.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jacques, Martin, VF-Group]

Jerry,

I guess your route is the pragmatic one, why replace the engine now as it may well just continue running perfectly. Worst case, if some swarf gets into the bearing surfaces some point later, consider swapping it out then.

I'd strongly agree with Bob's recommendation for a 100 mile oil change or two, but I imagine with your experience, you are planning that anyway.

Good luck with the rebuild,

Martin.