Dragon: mega slow at dumping Flash, normal ?

[Vincent Trouilliez]

Hi list,

I bought my Dragon fairly recently and it has not seen much use, and I
did protect it with a nice little plastic box with rubber feet. So I
don't think it's physically damaged. But, I notice that it is
exxxxtremely slow at reading the contents of the target Flash memory.

I do mean VERY slow. I timed it at a full minute for one single
kilo byte of data from Flash. Actually at first I thought either
avrdude or the  dragon, crashed, and I did cancel the transfer at
first. But the status LED's on the dragon showed some activity, so I
decided to wait and wait and wait, just in case it would actually
manage to complete the transfer.. and it did. But one KB per minute is
scarily (uselessly, at any rate) slow.

What puzzles me is that if I do the transfer with my crappy DIY
parallel cable, the same transfer takes zero time, it is blazing fast.

So I don't know what's wrong: avrdude's terminal mode when using a
Dragon rather than a // cable, or the Dragon itself which may have very
poor firmware ? :-/

So if Dragon owners could share their experiences... could you time how
long it takes for your Dragon to read one KB of data from Flash ?  Does
it take one minute like mine ?

Or might this be a problem in the terminal mode of avrdude, rather than
the Dragon ?


Regards,

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Vince


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> I bought my Dragon fairly recently and it has not seen much use, and I
> did protect it with a nice little plastic box with rubber feet. So I
> don't think it's physically damaged. But, I notice that it is
> exxxxtremely slow at reading the contents of the target Flash memory.
>  

Have you tried it with AVR Studio?  That might help pin down where the
problem is.

FWIW, I haven't seen slow _anything_ with Dragon under AVR Studio.  So
I'm suspicious of avrdude.


b.g.


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:53:48 -0500
Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:

> Have you tried it with AVR Studio?  That might help pin down where the
> problem is.

Nope. I am on Linux and I think (?) AVR Studio is only available for
Windows.

> FWIW, I haven't seen slow _anything_ with Dragon under AVR Studio.  So
> I'm suspicious of avrdude.

Ah great, that's good news then. I was a little afraid that with the
Dragon packing so many features for so little price, there HAD to be a
catch somewhere, and that slow performance might be one of them.
Seems that not then ! :-) If it's avrdude at fault then at least it's
potentially fixable, whereas had it been the Dragon at fault...

I will try to run AVR Studio in my WinXP virtual machine and see what
comes out of it... If it's still slow, then it's likely my Dragon is
defective in some way. Sadly it would not be economical to return it
under warranty (shipping it back to the US and back again to Europe...)
so I would just have to buy another one.


--
Vince


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:
>
> I will try to run AVR Studio in my WinXP virtual machine and see what
> comes out of it... If it's still slow, then it's likely my Dragon is
> defective in some way. Sadly it would not be economical to return it
> under warranty (shipping it back to the US and back again to Europe...)
> so I would just have to buy another one.
>  

I think AVR Studio might run ok under Wine.

You might also want to run your Dragon with it connected to a
bus-powered USB hub.  Maybe the power supply is sagging.


b.g.


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:48:06 -0500
Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:

> I think AVR Studio might run ok under Wine.

Didn't work on Wine, so tried it in a virtual machine... avr studio
fails to connect to the Dragon. I did notice that Windows XP detected
the Dragon at start up, and wanted to in stall a driver for it ! Does
the dragon really require a driver before AVR Studio can connect to
it ??

I als tried reboooooting (horror...) my machine, in order to start a
"native"/"real" Windows XP, which I normally never use and just keep
there "just in case", since havin git on the drive causes no harm after
all.. Well, bug disappointment : even in this case, AVR studio fails to
connect to the Dragon.
Avrdude can do it so presumably AVR Studio should be able to as well !
I am starting to get confused... maybe I should send my Dragon to some
kind Western European soul on this list (Joerg ?! ;-) by post, for
testing.....

--
Vince


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:48:06 -0500
> Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> I think AVR Studio might run ok under Wine.
>>    
>
> Didn't work on Wine, so tried it in a virtual machine... avr studio
> fails to connect to the Dragon. I did notice that Windows XP detected
> the Dragon at start up, and wanted to in stall a driver for it ! Does
> the dragon really require a driver before AVR Studio can connect to
> it ??
>  

Yes, but the driver is supposed to be installed along with AVR Studio so
it shouldn't need to hunt very far for it.

Part of the driver's function is to set information so that Windows and
AVR Studio can recognize what the board is.  AVR Studio then installs
firmware into the Dragon itself.

Come to think of it, I'm wondering if your Dragon has any firmware
installed, if it's never been connected to an AVR Studio before.  Guess
it must come from the factory with something...


b.g.


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:04:09 +0200
Vincent Trouilliez <vincent.trouilliez@...> wrote:

> Avrdude can do it so presumably AVR Studio should be able to as well !


Oh no... I just gave avrdude a try just after leaving Windows and
rebooting into Linux, and ohmy God, now even avrdue fails to connect to
the Dragon !! I tried 10 times in a row, and I always get the same
error, as follows:

$ avrdude -c dragon_isp -p m32 -P usb
avrdude: jtagmkII_getsync(): sign-on command: status -1
avrdude: usbdev_send(): wrote -19 out of 11 bytes, err = error
submitting URB: No such device avrdude: jtagmkII_send(): failed to send
command to serial port



it's talking about jtag mkII not Dragon, and serial port instead of
USB, so it's quite confusing to say the least.

The Dragon is detected (it shows up if I do an 'lsusb'), and when I run
avrdude, the Dragon's LEDs do show a sign of life. I tried using
different USB ports of my motherboard, no change. Replaced the brand
new USB cable with another brand new USB cable... still no joy.

Grrr...


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Vince


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

> Yes, but the driver is supposed to be installed along with AVR Studio so
> it shouldn't need to hunt very far for it.
>
> Part of the driver's function is to set information so that Windows and
> AVR Studio can recognize what the board is.  AVR Studio then installs
> firmware into the Dragon itself.

Ahhhhh.... AVR Studio did tell me "before you can sue your Dragon, you
must update it first!" I though "why update it, it worked just fine
with avrdude straight out of the box, so that should be good enough for
testing purposes !". But I was curious and  launched the update
anyway..at which point it said that it failed to connect...

> Come to think of it, I'm wondering if your Dragon has any firmware
> installed, if it's never been connected to an AVR Studio before.  Guess
> it must come from the factory with something...

Yeah, I didn't know about avrstudio and this driver and upgrade
requirement. I simply pulled my Dragon from its box, plugged it and ran
avrdude. Since it appear to work (albeit not very fast !), I assumed I
had nothing else to do !


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Vince


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:
> The Dragon is detected (it shows up if I do an 'lsusb'), and when I run
> avrdude, the Dragon's LEDs do show a sign of life. I tried using
> different USB ports of my motherboard, no change. Replaced the brand
> new USB cable with another brand new USB cable... still no joy.
>  

That sounds like the firmware in your Dragon went away.  Go back to
Windows, and test it with AVR Studio.  As a side-effect, that should get
you some firmware back...


b.g.


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:
> Yeah, I didn't know about avrstudio and this driver and upgrade
> requirement. I simply pulled my Dragon from its box, plugged it and ran
> avrdude. Since it appear to work (albeit not very fast !), I assumed I
> had nothing else to do !
>  

I bet they ship from the factory with some crappy, version 0.01 firmware
of some kind.  Factory test, or something.

Which presents a challenge for avrdude, obviously...


b.g.


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:23:14 -0500
Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:

> I bet they ship from the factory with some crappy, version 0.01 firmware
> of some kind.  Factory test, or something.
>
> Which presents a challenge for avrdude, obviously...

Ohhh... I tried reinstalling the Dragon driver under Windows, somehow
succeeded, and wow, AVR Studio has finally managed to connect to the
Dragon, and successfully upgraded its firmware ! Yeaaaah, at least my
Dragon is up to date now... back into Linux, avrdude can connect to it
again, phew ! :-)

All good news so far except... except that in terminal mode avrdude
still takes 60 seconds to dump one little KB from the flash memory !
ARRRRGH ! So this thread is still very much open I fear :-(
I could not compare with AVR studio, because I didn't find any
'terminal" mode in it, unfortunately...


--
Vince, still slow, but now up to date !


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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:23:14 -0500
> Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> I bet they ship from the factory with some crappy, version 0.01 firmware
>> of some kind.  Factory test, or something.
>>
>> Which presents a challenge for avrdude, obviously...
>>    
>
> Ohhh... I tried reinstalling the Dragon driver under Windows, somehow
> succeeded, and wow, AVR Studio has finally managed to connect to the
> Dragon, and successfully upgraded its firmware ! Yeaaaah, at least my
> Dragon is up to date now... back into Linux, avrdude can connect to it
> again, phew ! :-)
>
> All good news so far except... except that in terminal mode avrdude
> still takes 60 seconds to dump one little KB from the flash memory !
> ARRRRGH ! So this thread is still very much open I fear :-(
> I could not compare with AVR studio, because I didn't find any
> 'terminal" mode in it, unfortunately...
>  

Beginning to sound like an avrdude problem, no?


b.g.


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[David Kelly]

On Jun 25, 2009, at 7:07 PM, Vincent Trouilliez wrote:

> All good news so far except... except that in terminal mode avrdude
> still takes 60 seconds to dump one little KB from the flash memory !
> ARRRRGH ! So this thread is still very much open I fear :-(
> I could not compare with AVR studio, because I didn't find any
> 'terminal" mode in it, unfortunately...


I don't remember how to use Makefiles from within AVR Studio but if  
you install WinAVR in your virtual XP machine then if you have access  
to your source files it should be easy to add them to an AVR Studio  
project, rebuild in Studio, then launch the Studio's debugger.

While I do a lot of editing and test compiles (for syntax check) on  
FreeBSD, I use svn (TortoiseSVN on XP) to sync my work between  
FreeBSD and XP. All debugging is done on XP. I keep a separate AVR  
Studio project and a separate Makefile.

--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.





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[Bill Gatliff]

David Kelly wrote:
>
> While I do a lot of editing and test compiles (for syntax check) on
> FreeBSD, I use svn (TortoiseSVN on XP) to sync my work between FreeBSD
> and XP. All debugging is done on XP. I keep a separate AVR Studio
> project and a separate Makefile.

I'm so sorry for your pain.  :)

But honestly, I do pretty much the same thing--- only between Linux and
XP.  Been on my list for a while to find a way to get XP out of the
picture, but apparently avrdude+Dragon isn't it!  :)


b.g.


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:28:14 -0500
David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:

> I don't remember how to use Makefiles from within AVR Studio but if  
> you install WinAVR in your virtual XP machine then if you have access  
> to your source files it should be easy to add them to an AVR Studio  
> project, rebuild in Studio, then launch the Studio's debugger.


Hi David,

I installed WinAVR and could create a project from Studio and compile
it and upload it to the Dragon just fine (though an order of
magnitude slower than what the ISP clock of 4MHz should achieve), but I
don't understand how the debugger would help ? When I start it it tried
to use the target's JTAG debugger (even though I am using ISP not
JTAG), and I don't see any 'terminal' mode to compare with avrdude's..
where is it ?

Oh David, since you are on *nix too, and have Dragon(s!), could you
please do the same test as me (download 1024 bytes from Flash using
avrdude's terminal mode) and time how long it takes ? Pleaaase...
should take you only a few seconds of your time and would tell me if my
Dragon is defective or not. This way I can narrow down the problems to
either a design problem from Atmel in their Dragon (poor dumping speed
in ISP mode), or an implementation problem in avrdude's Dragon
interface.

Thaaaaaank you in advance... :-)

--
Vince


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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:19:51 -0500
Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:

> Beginning to sound like an avrdude problem, no?

I don't know... I still can't see how to find out if the slow
performance comes from avrdude's interface with the Dragon, or from the
Dragon itself...

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[David Kelly]

On Jun 26, 2009, at 8:27 AM, Vincent Trouilliez wrote:

> I installed WinAVR and could create a project from Studio and compile
> it and upload it to the Dragon just fine (though an order of
> magnitude slower than what the ISP clock of 4MHz should achieve),  
> but I
> don't understand how the debugger would help ? When I start it it  
> tried
> to use the target's JTAG debugger (even though I am using ISP not
> JTAG), and I don't see any 'terminal' mode to compare with avrdude's..
> where is it ?

I don't know. Believe the Atmel tools have CLI interfaces as well as  
GUI but haven't used the CLI.

As for the debugger, I configure for JTAG and upload/debug from that  
interface only.

> Oh David, since you are on *nix too, and have Dragon(s!), could you
> please do the same test as me (download 1024 bytes from Flash using
> avrdude's terminal mode) and time how long it takes ? Pleaaase...
> should take you only a few seconds of your time and would tell me if  
> my
> Dragon is defective or not. This way I can narrow down the problems to
> either a design problem from Atmel in their Dragon (poor dumping speed
> in ISP mode), or an implementation problem in avrdude's Dragon
> interface.

At the moment none of my AVR gear is set up. Have spent the past  
several months in $@%^& Visual Studio 2008 Express.  Actually VS isn't  
all that bad but for the Windows part. Have remained sane by using the  
C++ compiler in C mode, with a CLI on my application.   :-)

--
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========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.



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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:40:37 -0500
David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:

> At the moment none of my AVR gear is set up.

:-(
Someone else on this list must have one working I hope ! Can't believe
nobody replied... am I the only one earth using ISP with a Dragon ?
Maybe...
Sure, I intend to use JTAG in my next project, but the PCB for my
current project is already routed and built, cost me an arm and a leg
(60 Euros for a single sided Euro card, without even solder mask or
silk screen !). I guess I can always solder some wires to reroute my ISP
connector to the JTAG pins (which I purposefully, wisely, refrained
from using in this project... in case I wanted to later play with
JTAG)... might do that...

> Have spent the past several months in $@%^& Visual Studio 2008 Express.

I feel your pain ;-)
During my industrial placement, I spent 13 months programming
micro-controllers all day long, but was enjoyable and time traveled
faster than light. However in the middle of the placement, I spent 3
weeks on MS Visual Basic to write a little application to retrieve data
from a data logger... these 3 weeks felt more painful than
the 12+ months spent working on MCU's... 3 weeks of hell I tell you...
never again I hope ! Had to fight the thing all day long and with no
on-line community support back then, was not easy, I was on my own
stuffed in problems...

>  Actually VS isn't all that bad but for the Windows part. Have remained sane by using the  
> C++ compiler in C mode, with a CLI on my application.   :-)

Yeah, when it's all dark and gloomy, even a slight ray of light goes a
long way in maintaining one's faith in life.... so to speak ?! ;-)


--
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[Bill Gatliff]

Vincent Trouilliez wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:40:37 -0500
> David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> At the moment none of my AVR gear is set up.
>>    
>
> :-(
> Someone else on this list must have one working I hope ! Can't believe
> nobody replied... am I the only one earth using ISP with a Dragon ?
>  

Did you try the guys over on avrfreaks?


b.g.

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bgat@...




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[Vincent Trouilliez]

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:06:50 -0500
Bill Gatliff <bgat@...> wrote:

> Did you try the guys over on avrfreaks?

Nope, I have never used their forum (I do have an account though, just
never used it) because until today this list was always helpful
enough... I also gathered that many people on this list were also on
AVRFreaks, so I felt it would be redundant to post to the web forum and
might even be considered "spam" actually !

--
Vince


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