Nabble - Drupal - Consulting

Re: Formating the date module with cck fields

2009-12-01T17:18:34Z

> <?php echo $node->field_date[0]['view'];?>
You should be able to use the date_make_date and date_format_date (with type
= custom) functions

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Formating the date module with cck fields

2009-12-01T17:08:41Z

Hello All,

I have a client that wants to be able to back date themselves without having
the stress of editing the database. What's the best way to do this?

They want the below information in a nice little css box:

<div class="calendar">
<small>Jan</small>
<strong>03</strong>
<small>2009</small>
</div>

I tried just creating the appropriate 3 cck boxes but had issues with the
Month being alphabetical in shorting. I could add another field for the
numeric date to short by, but that seems redundant and not the best way.

Using the date module, I am having trouble figuring out how to format it. I
have node-article.tpl.php with the line:

<?php echo $node->field_date[0]['view'];?>

It prints in the page, has the correct back date, very happy, (don't want
the time printed though) but I need to separate the month, day and year
values so I can give the appropriate css.

Any ideas? I tried using the devel module to help me figure out the values,
but no luck.

Thanks,

Holly Ferree, Graphic Designer, BFA
813.786.0852
hferree@...
http://www.designbyholly.com/

Here's the css for the calendar if it matters:

.calendar {
-moz-background-clip:border;
-moz-background-inline-policy:continuous;
-moz-background-origin:padding;
background:#EEEEEE url(images/ribbed.gif) repeat scroll 0 0;
border:1px solid #CCCCCC;
color:#2E2E2E;
display:inline;
float:right;
line-height:1.5em;
margin-left:0;
padding:5px;
position:relative;
text-align:center;
width:35px;
}

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T10:19:20Z

Check this out, via reddit:

Mildly NSFW!

http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html

Sami

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:01:11 -0700, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

> I have had my own bad experiences in the Drupal industry. The worst
> probably being sub-contracted by a company on the West Coast of the US.
> Involved attacking me personally in front of a non-profit client and
> threats of law suits both from me and them. Frivolous claims such as
> such as taking me to court for bad code, bug fixing, and hurting their
> business, (this despite the standard GPL clause), it was all a ruse in
> order to keep from paying me which was mainly due to the client running
> out of funds, and them deciding that I should be the one who should bear
> the weight for that. I settled with the for 1/5 of what I owed as at the
> time I was not inclined to go to court and the facts were not very clear
> on paper, i.e. lack of a solid contract, and it would make quite a bit
> more of a mess then I particularly wanted to at the time.
>
> Lesson learned from all of my experiences thus far to help the
> community:
>
> 1) Never work without a contract, have a nice detailed disclaimer on
> your contract to make clear what you will or will not do.
> 2) Refuse to do any work if there is no contract (and do not feel any
> obligation to do anything), even if continuing a relationship.
> 3) Ask for a good portion of the contract up front.
> 4) If the company (SMEs only) is loaded with managers or people who are
> the owners of the company and can't code worth shit, GTFO, as they are
> simply adding cost for their dead weight... Further they are getting in
> the way of communication with the client. In the end, this means that
> they may get the specs wrong and blame you for the results, both
> personally and in the eyes of the client. Unless you feel particularly
> that they are adding something that you cannot add.
> 5) If the people involved are particularly good at debate, don't expect
> to get anything done, and simply take them to small claims court with
> the contract in hand. Do not attempt to argue with them any further, as
> its a waste of time. They will make up all sorts of assertions and lies
> and confound progress and might even try to get you in trouble with the
> law, etc. Further, in court do not attempt to debate them, simply
> present the facts, call attention to the fact that they are good at
> debate, and that they are good at distorting the fact because of it.
> 6) If you wish to expose someone, simply do it, threatening to do it can
> get you in more trouble.
> 7) If the company is filled with incompetent people who like to bill
> hours for arbitrary things, sooner or later you are going to get
> screwed. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
> 8) Work directly with clients, never be sub-contracted (unless perhaps
> by IBM or another big brand), as that's a way to add costs to your
> clients, and potentially puts you at significantly greater risk than
> working with clients. Considering how expensive IT projects can get with
> even a single person, adding more dead weight to the mix is asking for
> trouble.
> 9) If you give a solid estimate, then make a contract that says
> explicitly what that involves, and then refuse to do any more work.
> Needless to say this is going to lead to frustration both from you and
> the client, and so either don't go down this path or explain to the
> client that this is the case and that they are likely to be frustrated
> in the future -- do this diplomatically.
> 10) Bill on time, and if you don't get paid refuse to do any more work.
> 11) There are plenty of douche bags everywhere, and people who think
> they are managers are particularly good douche bags.
> 12) Look out for yourself, and never expect anyone is looking out for
> you. This goes for any and all employees, and people participating in
> our economic system.
>
> If you have any lessons, please be free to share them too.
>
> Sami
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T10:04:52Z

One big problem with such solutions is that you are open to law suites for
libel, well at least the person posting the information is. I would have a
for-pay service or credit based service and make sure the person being
reported can't get access to it. I have not checked out your solution
though.

Sami

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:34:43 +0530, Roshan Shah <roshan.shah@...>
wrote:

> Exactly - I was hoping that D.O would have an area to protect developers
> from non-paying clients. For the same reasons we relaunched
> http://www.drupalguru.com 2 months ago to allow ratings on businesses as
> well as developers.
>
> *Roshan Shah*
> --
> http://www.gloscon.com
> --
> *Direct : 1(604) 630-4292 *
> *Sydney :61( 2) 8003-7437 (Gloscon Pte Ltd, Australia)*
> *India :91( 79) 40043267, 40043268 (India Development
> Center)
> Mobile :91-9979853010, 9624311006*
>
> **************************************************************
> This email may contain confidential information, and is intended only for
> the named recipient and may be privileged. Distribution or copying of

this

> email by anyone other than the named recipient is prohibited. If you are
> not
> the named recipient, please notify us immediately and permanently destroy
> this email and all copies of it.
> ***************************************************************
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:28 PM, David Hazel
> <dave@...>wrote:
>
>> D.O does not have place to provide feedback on Clients.
>>
>> ClientRating (http://www.clientrating.com/) is a website we started to
>> provide a source for meaningful feedback (good and bad) on clients.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Roshan Shah
> <roshan.shah@...>wrote:
>>
>>> Clients have been cribbing about Consulting companies in forums, etc.
> But
>>> alas Drupal.org does not have a Client Alert section where Developer or
> Shop
>>> can put details of non-paying client. We had a classic case of a
> Travel
>>> Industry client who did not pay $52K to a Thailand based company and
> then
>>> owed us $104K. And we do have audio files and series of emails as
> evidence.
>>>
>>> Best is take advance prior to starting work and deliver 100% of code
> only
>>> on receiving 100% payment.
>>>
>>> Roshan
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> >> if you get to a point where you have to
>>>> >> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the
> battle,
>>>> but
>>>> >> you've probably already lost the war.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the
> relationship
>>>> > you
>>>> > have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to
> work
>>>> > directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the
> expectations
>>>> of
>>>> > the end client.
>>>> >
>>>> > You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the
>>>> contract
>>>> > it
>>>> > is over.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between
>>>> getting
>>>> paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for
> the
>>>> work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sami
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> consulting mailing list
>>>> consulting@...
>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> consulting mailing list
>>> consulting@...
>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Email is not a secure form of communication!
>>
>> Drupal Consultant
>> http://www.hazelconsulting.com/
>> 253.686.0296
>> dave@...
>> skype: hazelconsulting
>> gtalk:kananii
>> http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel
>> ICQ: 366587185
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> consulting mailing list
>> consulting@...
>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>
>>

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T09:04:43Z

Exactly - I was hoping that D.O would have an area to protect developers from non-paying clients. For the same reasons we relaunched http://www.drupalguru.com 2 months ago to allow ratings on businesses as well as developers.

Roshan Shah
--
http://www.gloscon.com
--
Direct            : 1(604) 630-4292
Sydney            :61( 2) 8003-7437 (Gloscon Pte Ltd, Australia)
India                :91( 79) 40043267, 40043268 (India Development Center)
Mobile         :91-9979853010, 9624311006

**************************************************************
This email may contain confidential information, and is intended only for the named recipient and may be privileged. Distribution or copying of this email by anyone other than the named recipient is prohibited. If you are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately and permanently destroy this email and all copies of it.
***************************************************************

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:28 PM, David Hazel <dave@...> wrote:

D.O does not have place to provide feedback on Clients.

ClientRating (http://www.clientrating.com/) is a website we started to provide a source for meaningful feedback (good and bad) on clients.

-Dave

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Roshan Shah <roshan.shah@...> wrote:

Clients have been cribbing about Consulting companies in forums, etc. But alas Drupal.org does not have a Client Alert section where Developer or Shop can put details of non-paying client. We had a classic case of a Travel Industry client who did not pay $52K to a Thailand based company and then owed us $104K. And we do have audio files and series of emails as evidence.

Best is take advance prior to starting work and deliver 100% of code only on receiving 100% payment.

Roshan

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

>> if you get to a point where you have to
>> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
>> you've probably already lost the war.
>
>
> Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship
> you
> have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work
> directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations
of
> the end client.
>
> You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract
> it
> is over.

Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between getting
paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for the
work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)

Regards,
Sami

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--
Email is not a secure form of communication!

Drupal Consultant
http://www.hazelconsulting.com/
253.686.0296
dave@...
skype: hazelconsulting
gtalk:kananii
http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel
ICQ: 366587185

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T08:58:42Z

D.O does not have place to provide feedback on Clients.

ClientRating (http://www.clientrating.com/) is a website we started to provide a source for meaningful feedback (good and bad) on clients.

-Dave

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Roshan Shah <roshan.shah@...> wrote:

Clients have been cribbing about Consulting companies in forums, etc. But alas Drupal.org does not have a Client Alert section where Developer or Shop can put details of non-paying client. We had a classic case of a Travel Industry client who did not pay $52K to a Thailand based company and then owed us $104K. And we do have audio files and series of emails as evidence.

Best is take advance prior to starting work and deliver 100% of code only on receiving 100% payment.

Roshan

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

>> if you get to a point where you have to
>> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
>> you've probably already lost the war.
>
>
> Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship
> you
> have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work
> directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations
of
> the end client.
>
> You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract
> it
> is over.

Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between getting
paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for the
work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)

Regards,
Sami

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_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
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--
Email is not a secure form of communication!

Drupal Consultant
http://www.hazelconsulting.com/
253.686.0296
dave@...
skype: hazelconsulting
gtalk:kananii
http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel
ICQ: 366587185

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T08:53:28Z

Roshan Shah wrote:

> Best is take advance prior to starting work and deliver 100% of code
> only on receiving 100% payment.
>
I agree. If there is to be an installation as the final result, I
require payment prior to that. I used to have the project paid 90% at
the time of installation, and accept the final 10% upon installation,
but that became too risky, and also the installation can be delayed
indefinitely completely out of my control.

I prefer time payments. I used to go with milestone payments, because of
the psychology of the client preferring a trigger that they could get
their arms around. The problem was that if the milestone was delayed,
the finances flip-flopped to where there was unpaid activity occurring,
and if the milestones needed to be rearranged midstream due to business
or other changes, getting the financial terms changed to reflect it was
often challenging. With timed payments, it's more straight-forward
keeping the revenue stream ahead of the expenses. Just make sure to
clarify in bold underlined print, or the equivalent, that the payments
are due ON those dates, not those dates plus 4 weeks of accounts-payable
shenanigans.
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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T07:45:42Z

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

>> if you get to a point where you have to
>> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
>> you've probably already lost the war.
>
>
> Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship
> you
> have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work
> directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations
of
> the end client.
>
> You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract
> it
> is over.

Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between getting
paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for the
work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)

Yep, it is a tightrope. We have had a lot of sticky situations over the last year. I would say percentage wise the riskier accounts have been working as a sub. Especially working for marketing firms. Yet them seem to be able to land the bigger accounts. And think doing websites is some after thought.

Anyway, hang in there.

Regards,
Sami

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T07:42:54Z

Clients have been cribbing about Consulting companies in forums, etc. But alas Drupal.org does not have a Client Alert section where Developer or Shop can put details of non-paying client. We had a classic case of a Travel Industry client who did not pay $52K to a Thailand based company and then owed us $104K. And we do have audio files and series of emails as evidence.

Best is take advance prior to starting work and deliver 100% of code only on receiving 100% payment.

Roshan

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

>> if you get to a point where you have to
>> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
>> you've probably already lost the war.
>
>
> Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship
> you
> have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work
> directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations
of
> the end client.
>
> You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract
> it
> is over.

Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between getting
paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for the
work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)

Regards,
Sami

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T06:56:38Z

>> if you get to a point where you have to
>> whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
>> you've probably already lost the war.
>
>
> Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship
> you
> have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work
> directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations
of
> the end client.
>
> You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract
> it
> is over.

Obviously, it's over... However, it may mean the difference between getting
paid and not... I don't know about you, but I prefer to get paid for the
work I did, especially if it's over... As do a lot of wives. ;)

Regards,
Sami

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-25T06:43:58Z

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff@...> wrote:

if you get to a point where you have to
whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
you've probably already lost the war.

Contracts are like fences. But ultimately it is about the relationship you have with the other side. That is why I think it is important to work directly for people and not be a sub, you can't manage the expectations of the end client.

You are write though if it gets to the point of whipping out the contract it is over.

--
Christian

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T15:48:57Z

There is a time a place for adding to a project. If it is a bid, I think you need to protect yourself. Especially if it is a new client. You need to have enough in reserve to cover modest scope changes that could be interpreted either way.

Further if a client wants to make sure they are going to get a fixed rate they are going to pay a bit of a premium on that.

I spoke with some a general contractor with a construction company I hired. He said when he is faced putting in a fixed bid for a renovation he will triple his estimate cause he just doesn't know what he will find.

When it comes to estimate I make sure I put in time for the intangibles people never think about, such as time on phone with the client, training, documentation, integration issues, etc. Starting with a new client I encourage them to start small with us, see how we handle a small project. Then they can feel more comfortable working time and materials.

Clients are always happy to have us come in under budget. If fact often the remainder of the budget is spent on other parts of the site. This is clearly a lot harder on project running 3-6 months. Clients usually don't have the patience to work through proper design specs.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Sam Tresler <sam@...> wrote:

I will be most curious in hearing how long this job ends up taking in
reality. Part of me despises over-bidding just for the sake of
overbidding. The other part of me has spent 2/3rds of my web career
cleaning up after the low-bidders.

-S

On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Fred Jones wrote:

>> I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
>> company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
>> the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
>> some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
>> PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just
>> to
>> customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
>> special fields, but it's still just a node template.
>>
>> I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
>> to make one node template!
>
> Thanks everyone for the comments--some were quite interesting.
>
> I would like to add that this firm was already hired and did a few
> small jobs for this site, so the relationship already exists, as does
> a bit of knowledge of the site. The page in question is indeed complex
> and is more than just a node template. The other programmer broke it
> down into a dozen tasks, including building special functionality.
> Making the node template was just one step in the puzzle. His total
> time was 15 hours for the full job.
>
> Their total was 130 hours for the whole thing. They added that those
> estimates may be conservative but they see no way it can be done in
> less than 80 hours.
>
> The *client* agreed that such an estimate is ridiculous.
>
> F
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T15:04:10Z

On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Domenic Santangelo wrote:

>> On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Fred Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>> They estimate over $3300
>>>> to make one node template!
>
> "This should be simple" -- the most dangerous phrase in the english language (for us, at least).

Yeah, I recently burned through almost 150 hours on a portion of a project I'd flat-rate estimated at 30, and I did that with a contract that defined the project parameters pretty well. But it started out as a "simple" task—the client had forms from an older version of the site, all in PHP. Could I build these two forms to fit with the new Drupal site? Sure. At first glance it looked like it might take as much as five hours. How much time could a couple of forms take?

Steve
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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T12:13:33Z

On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Sam Tresler wrote:

> I will be most curious in hearing how long this job ends up taking in
> reality. Part of me despises over-bidding just for the sake of
> overbidding. The other part of me has spent 2/3rds of my web career
> cleaning up after the low-bidders.

+1. We just heard in another thread about a "should be simple" subcontract that ended up ballooning out of control. It's common.

> On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Fred Jones wrote:
>>
>>> They estimate over $3300
>>> to make one node template!

"This should be simple" -- the most dangerous phrase in the english language (for us, at least).

-D
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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T11:54:34Z

I will be most curious in hearing how long this job ends up taking in
reality. Part of me despises over-bidding just for the sake of
overbidding. The other part of me has spent 2/3rds of my web career
cleaning up after the low-bidders.

-S

On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Fred Jones wrote:

>> I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
>> company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
>> the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
>> some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
>> PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just
>> to
>> customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
>> special fields, but it's still just a node template.
>>
>> I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
>> to make one node template!
>
> Thanks everyone for the comments--some were quite interesting.
>
> I would like to add that this firm was already hired and did a few
> small jobs for this site, so the relationship already exists, as does
> a bit of knowledge of the site. The page in question is indeed complex
> and is more than just a node template. The other programmer broke it
> down into a dozen tasks, including building special functionality.
> Making the node template was just one step in the puzzle. His total
> time was 15 hours for the full job.
>
> Their total was 130 hours for the whole thing. They added that those
> estimates may be conservative but they see no way it can be done in
> less than 80 hours.
>
> The *client* agreed that such an estimate is ridiculous.
>
> F
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T11:42:20Z

> I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
> company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
> the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
> some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
> PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just to
> customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
> special fields, but it's still just a node template.
>
> I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
> to make one node template!

Thanks everyone for the comments--some were quite interesting.

I would like to add that this firm was already hired and did a few
small jobs for this site, so the relationship already exists, as does
a bit of knowledge of the site. The page in question is indeed complex
and is more than just a node template. The other programmer broke it
down into a dozen tasks, including building special functionality.
Making the node template was just one step in the puzzle. His total
time was 15 hours for the full job.

Their total was 130 hours for the whole thing. They added that those
estimates may be conservative but they see no way it can be done in
less than 80 hours.

The *client* agreed that such an estimate is ridiculous.

F
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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T11:42:18Z

At 02:07 PM 11/24/2009, you wrote:

>Domenic Santangelo wrote:
>>
>>
>>I cringed a little bit when I read this, thinking "oh boy, his
>>associate is going to come back and ask...
>>
>>
>>>
>>>He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do
>>>about the amount.
>>>
>>
>>...this.
>>
>Yeah. I should point out that he and I discussed --many-- times
>during the course of it that the $ were accumulating, and I let him
>know when a couple plateaus where reached, so it wasn't as much of a
>surprise to him as it might have read.

I know it's counter-intuitive, at least to me, but this doesn't
always matter in my experience. I worked on a fixed price
(non-Drupal) project once where the client kept adding stuff. Our
contract said that I got 1/2 of the bid price up front, and 1/2 of my
estimate for all add-ons as they were added on although those would
ultimately be billed by the hour after acceptance of the entire project.

So as the add-ons came, so did my carefully detailed invoices. Client
never said a word about them, until I started asking why none of
these invoices have been paid! I think the youtube video someone else
posted on this thread is right to the point. That's why there are
mechanic's liens, just for example. And the project never finished,
cuz the client wouldn't pay anymore. I even offered to back out the
add-ons and finish the originally contracted job then we could look
at add-ons after launch. To no avail.

I think from the client's pov he came to realize that the true scope
of a usable result for his needs was beyond what he could afford. I
guess that's the con ethic, as opposed to the work ethic.

Marty

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T11:27:24Z

On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Greg Holsclaw wrote:

> I think Sam has it right on. I have passed on a large project to
> Trellon as bandwidth would not allow my full attention, and as a
> project manager TopNotchThemes bounced me to a freelance themer who
> has worked out very well for me.
>
> I think it is unfortunate in the Drupal ecosystem if big players
> just bid up a project out of the budget of a potential client
> instead of seeking to bounce them to an appropriately sized firm.
>
> PS. I have rightly spent over a week on one node template before.
> Many ‘feature requests’ can hide in the shadows of PSDs or
> wireframes (‘fax this page’ functionality as small as a simple
> button ….).
>
> Greg
>

I'd have to agree with this, and for the most part, I'd defend the
larger firm with the bigger quote. We don't really know the whole
story here, and that firm may have advised that client against them
taking the project, but the client may have insisted on a bid anyway.
For larger firms there is much more overhead to allow them to deal
with much larger projects, and when someone asks them for a quote for
something so small, many times they aren't interested in taking it,
and bid appropriately so that it will be worthwhile for them if the
client does go with them. I also see many folks asking us for bids and
telling us we are too expensive up front, but still asking for the
bids because they need a minimum numbers or bids/estimates to turn in.
When that happens, the bigger, more well known companies are an ideal
target for "one more estimate."

-Mike
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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-24T11:17:13Z

Even though I agree with most of your lessons, I don't think they reflect the "Drupal industry".

What happens to me once in a while is that I get people who "heard" that Drupal is the best thing ever and it's "free". Then they try to setup a site, which works fine. Then they try to setup a complex site (friends list, tagging, digg clones, video sites, etc.) and they realize that even when modules exists, it's hard to make everything work fine. That's when they try to hire a "Drupal expert" having a non-existent initial budget and a broken site.

They usually come to the paid services forum and make a pathetic bounty for $15 in order to get something fixed. Those people some times email me talking about a project and after a couple emails I realize they have no budget to do so. It's frustrating that they make you waste so much time.

Ivan Soto Fernandez
Web Developer
http://ivansotof.com

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Sami Khan <sami@...> wrote:

I have had my own bad experiences in the Drupal industry. The worst
probably being sub-contracted by a company on the West Coast of the US.
Involved attacking me personally in front of a non-profit client and
threats of law suits both from me and them. Frivolous claims such as
such as taking me to court for bad code, bug fixing, and hurting their
business, (this despite the standard GPL clause), it was all a ruse in
order to keep from paying me which was mainly due to the client running
out of funds, and them deciding that I should be the one who should bear
the weight for that. I settled with the for 1/5 of what I owed as at the
time I was not inclined to go to court and the facts were not very clear
on paper, i.e. lack of a solid contract, and it would make quite a bit
more of a mess then I particularly wanted to at the time.

Lesson learned from all of my experiences thus far to help the
community:

1) Never work without a contract, have a nice detailed disclaimer on
your contract to make clear what you will or will not do.
2) Refuse to do any work if there is no contract (and do not feel any
obligation to do anything), even if continuing a relationship.
3) Ask for a good portion of the contract up front.
4) If the company (SMEs only) is loaded with managers or people who are
the owners of the company and can't code worth shit, GTFO, as they are
simply adding cost for their dead weight... Further they are getting in
the way of communication with the client. In the end, this means that
they may get the specs wrong and blame you for the results, both
personally and in the eyes of the client. Unless you feel particularly
that they are adding something that you cannot add.
5) If the people involved are particularly good at debate, don't expect
to get anything done, and simply take them to small claims court with
the contract in hand. Do not attempt to argue with them any further, as
its a waste of time. They will make up all sorts of assertions and lies
and confound progress and might even try to get you in trouble with the
law, etc. Further, in court do not attempt to debate them, simply
present the facts, call attention to the fact that they are good at
debate, and that they are good at distorting the fact because of it.
6) If you wish to expose someone, simply do it, threatening to do it can
get you in more trouble.
7) If the company is filled with incompetent people who like to bill
hours for arbitrary things, sooner or later you are going to get
screwed. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
8) Work directly with clients, never be sub-contracted (unless perhaps
by IBM or another big brand), as that's a way to add costs to your
clients, and potentially puts you at significantly greater risk than
working with clients. Considering how expensive IT projects can get with
even a single person, adding more dead weight to the mix is asking for
trouble.
9) If you give a solid estimate, then make a contract that says
explicitly what that involves, and then refuse to do any more work.
Needless to say this is going to lead to frustration both from you and
the client, and so either don't go down this path or explain to the
client that this is the case and that they are likely to be frustrated
in the future -- do this diplomatically.
10) Bill on time, and if you don't get paid refuse to do any more work.
11) There are plenty of douche bags everywhere, and people who think
they are managers are particularly good douche bags.
12) Look out for yourself, and never expect anyone is looking out for
you. This goes for any and all employees, and people participating in
our economic system.

If you have any lessons, please be free to share them too.

Sami

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Re: Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-24T11:13:27Z

Sami Khan wrote:

> Lesson learned from all of my experiences thus far to help the
> community:
>
>
Some of it varies when working with small clients. I noticed this also
back in the day when looking at the PMI stuff. Always, the contract
makes sense, but when the client contact embodies 25% or more of the
total employees, pretty much if you get to a point where you have to
whip out a bulky contract and point at it, you might win the battle, but
you've probably already lost the war.
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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T11:07:05Z

Domenic Santangelo wrote:

I cringed a little bit when I read this, thinking "oh boy, his associate is going to come back and ask...

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the amount.

...this.

Yeah. I should point out that he and I discussed --many-- times during the course of it that the $ were accumulating, and I let him know when a couple plateaus where reached, so it wasn't as much of a surprise to him as it might have read.

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Lessons learned from consulting

2009-11-24T11:01:11Z

I have had my own bad experiences in the Drupal industry. The worst
probably being sub-contracted by a company on the West Coast of the US.
Involved attacking me personally in front of a non-profit client and
threats of law suits both from me and them. Frivolous claims such as
such as taking me to court for bad code, bug fixing, and hurting their
business, (this despite the standard GPL clause), it was all a ruse in
order to keep from paying me which was mainly due to the client running
out of funds, and them deciding that I should be the one who should bear
the weight for that. I settled with the for 1/5 of what I owed as at the
time I was not inclined to go to court and the facts were not very clear
on paper, i.e. lack of a solid contract, and it would make quite a bit
more of a mess then I particularly wanted to at the time.

Lesson learned from all of my experiences thus far to help the
community:

1) Never work without a contract, have a nice detailed disclaimer on
your contract to make clear what you will or will not do.
2) Refuse to do any work if there is no contract (and do not feel any
obligation to do anything), even if continuing a relationship.
3) Ask for a good portion of the contract up front.
4) If the company (SMEs only) is loaded with managers or people who are
the owners of the company and can't code worth shit, GTFO, as they are
simply adding cost for their dead weight... Further they are getting in
the way of communication with the client. In the end, this means that
they may get the specs wrong and blame you for the results, both
personally and in the eyes of the client. Unless you feel particularly
that they are adding something that you cannot add.
5) If the people involved are particularly good at debate, don't expect
to get anything done, and simply take them to small claims court with
the contract in hand. Do not attempt to argue with them any further, as
its a waste of time. They will make up all sorts of assertions and lies
and confound progress and might even try to get you in trouble with the
law, etc. Further, in court do not attempt to debate them, simply
present the facts, call attention to the fact that they are good at
debate, and that they are good at distorting the fact because of it.
6) If you wish to expose someone, simply do it, threatening to do it can
get you in more trouble.
7) If the company is filled with incompetent people who like to bill
hours for arbitrary things, sooner or later you are going to get
screwed. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
8) Work directly with clients, never be sub-contracted (unless perhaps
by IBM or another big brand), as that's a way to add costs to your
clients, and potentially puts you at significantly greater risk than
working with clients. Considering how expensive IT projects can get with
even a single person, adding more dead weight to the mix is asking for
trouble.
9) If you give a solid estimate, then make a contract that says
explicitly what that involves, and then refuse to do any more work.
Needless to say this is going to lead to frustration both from you and
the client, and so either don't go down this path or explain to the
client that this is the case and that they are likely to be frustrated
in the future -- do this diplomatically.
10) Bill on time, and if you don't get paid refuse to do any more work.
11) There are plenty of douche bags everywhere, and people who think
they are managers are particularly good douche bags.
12) Look out for yourself, and never expect anyone is looking out for
you. This goes for any and all employees, and people participating in
our economic system.

If you have any lessons, please be free to share them too.

Sami

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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T10:59:30Z

On Nov 24, 2009, at 8:19 AM, Jeff Greenberg wrote:

> So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
> double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
> of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
> day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
> the original was a bit over $7000.

I cringed a little bit when I read this, thinking "oh boy, his associate is going to come back and ask...

> He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
> amount.

...this.

-D

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T10:46:25Z

I think Sam has it right on. I have passed on a large project to Trellon as bandwidth would not allow my full attention, and as a project manager TopNotchThemes bounced me to a freelance themer who has worked out very well for me.

I think it is unfortunate in the Drupal ecosystem if big players just bid up a project out of the budget of a potential client instead of seeking to bounce them to an appropriately sized firm.

PS. I have rightly spent over a week on one node template before. Many ‘feature requests’ can hide in the shadows of PSDs or wireframes (‘fax this page’ functionality as small as a simple button ….).

Greg

Sam wrote:

…This goes the other way too. Freelancers who have really big sites come their way, should sometimes pass them on to larger companies who are more capable of handling it -- and the larger companies should be passing the small jobs and sites to the freelancers and small shops.

Sam

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@...> wrote:

Fred Jones wrote:
> hired a fancy NYC company ... custom node template, based on a PSD.

That seems pretty darned expensive to me. When I worked at IBM, nothing
could be done by one person. You had to have an account manager, project
manager, architect, QA, etc. Each had his/her own hours to bill, and none
would be as low as $100/hr. However, that still seems quite high to theme a
node, but I've never worked with a PSD. I've done several node type
templates and not even my first one when I had to learn took 33 hours. If
they have to do some hooks to make sure variables are available, it could
easily take more than 3 hours, but nowhere close to 33.

Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King,
Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Fred Jones
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:09 AM
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: [consulting] Professionalism

I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just to
customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
special fields, but it's still just a node template.

I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
to make one node template!

I don't understand how they are able to have enough business and a
good enough reputation to be charging high prices if they don't know
what they're doing. Because they don't--33 hours for a node template
is silly I think. The other programmer we use could do it in 3 hours I
think (and he's less than $100). He's just busy...

F

PS: Thank you for listening to my rant. I feel better now. :)
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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T08:42:45Z

That reminds me of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

We learned the hard way over a long period of time how to make sure that doesn't happen. We no longer will do sites without a proper spec or discovery phase. We also collect half of our largest estimate up front, then invoice weekly on hourly work after the deposit has been used up. We also put the original estimate vs new estimate based on out of scope additions in the project management system so that the client always knows how they increased the size of the budget with their feature additions. That way there are never any surprises and they know what they are spending and can't be shocked when the final bill comes down the pipe.

Adam Mordecai, Partner
Advomatic, LLC
http://advomatic.com/c2c
Click to Call Your Representatives!

On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Jeff Greenberg wrote:

I've been a development consultant in one flavor or another (freelance,
humongous computer company, software house, etc.) since punch cards, and
at one point was managing consultant for an international development
practice, so I've seen just about everything...enough to where I am an
independent freelancer now and don't miss the rest :-)

So I have an associate who is a Flash guy, who tosses me online stores
to do a couple-few times a year. It's normally an informal thing, in
terms of him telling me what's involved in the way of anything unusual
with shipping, product options, the other gotchas, and I give him a price.

He comes to me with a site that had an oscommerce store and wants a new
site. Normal cart, nothing special. Only 18 products. Some templating. I
had other things on my calendar, and he needed this started right away,
and said he'd pay double. So I totaled it up, and quote $2500.

Not long after it started, it became obvious that there was going to be
trouble. His client had another consultant under hire, who had wanted
the store business, and in addition to being bent out of shape about not
getting it, managed to get inserted between the owners and my contractor
as a "PM". Those of you who have been PM's will appreciate 'being one'
yet not having a specification, not wanting the project to succeed, and
having nothing be your fault (when I was a PM, the responsibility for
everything fell on me).

But the real issue was that the store was far from normal. A short list
of the customizations I had to make to Ubercart include

-importing a csv file - column format inconsistent - containing
tracking information for orders, where the order had to have packaging,
shipment, and status automatically created and updated and an email sent

-automatically exporting orders as edi

-writing a script to import the oscommerce data

-custom admin reports

-creating an intermediary payment gateway (since Ubercart can't
handle two being active) to handle a special card

-modifying the credit system to account for the normal cards needing
CVV but this other card not only not having CVV but not having an
expiration date

I looked at all of that (by way of a 'QA' document the 'PM' sent...which
basically said where is this stuff?) and told him that none of this was
included in the 'normal store' quote. He said yeah, just do it hourly.

So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
the original was a bit over $7000.

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
amount. I said, "yes, you can stop giving fixed-price quotes on anything
without a concrete spec to start with."

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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T08:35:39Z

Sorry to hear that. Next time turn the business down. I had to do that the other day. They wanted me to work on a project that had scope but no specs. And the budget was already set. I said I can't do that to risky.

There is nothing worse than being on a fix bid as a sub. For one you can't manage the expectations with the client. Further the client isn't responsible for paying you, your friend is. But he won't pay you unless he gets paid. Also in that situation you don't really have any way of holding back code until you get paid.

Hopefully you can recoup some of the money.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff@...> wrote:

So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
the original was a bit over $7000.

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
amount. I said, "yes, you can stop giving fixed-price quotes on anything
without a concrete spec to start with."

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--
Christian

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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T08:31:55Z

... sounds like a good use for the Book module

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:30 PM, David Hazel <dave@...> wrote:

bet there are enough of these "tales of woe" to publish a nice short story compilation.

You know, something to read the kids at night when they say they want to grow up to be like daddy and mommy.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff@...> wrote:
I've been a development consultant in one flavor or another (freelance,
humongous computer company, software house, etc.) since punch cards, and
at one point was managing consultant for an international development
practice, so I've seen just about everything...enough to where I am an
independent freelancer now and don't miss the rest :-)

So I have an associate who is a Flash guy, who tosses me online stores
to do a couple-few times a year. It's normally an informal thing, in
terms of him telling me what's involved in the way of anything unusual
with shipping, product options, the other gotchas, and I give him a price.

He comes to me with a site that had an oscommerce store and wants a new
site. Normal cart, nothing special. Only 18 products. Some templating. I
had other things on my calendar, and he needed this started right away,
and said he'd pay double. So I totaled it up, and quote $2500.

Not long after it started, it became obvious that there was going to be
trouble. His client had another consultant under hire, who had wanted
the store business, and in addition to being bent out of shape about not
getting it, managed to get inserted between the owners and my contractor
as a "PM". Those of you who have been PM's will appreciate 'being one'
yet not having a specification, not wanting the project to succeed, and
having nothing be your fault (when I was a PM, the responsibility for
everything fell on me).

But the real issue was that the store was far from normal. A short list
of the customizations I had to make to Ubercart include

-importing a csv file - column format inconsistent - containing
tracking information for orders, where the order had to have packaging,
shipment, and status automatically created and updated and an email sent

-automatically exporting orders as edi

-writing a script to import the oscommerce data

-custom admin reports

-creating an intermediary payment gateway (since Ubercart can't
handle two being active) to handle a special card

-modifying the credit system to account for the normal cards needing
CVV but this other card not only not having CVV but not having an
expiration date

I looked at all of that (by way of a 'QA' document the 'PM' sent...which
basically said where is this stuff?) and told him that none of this was
included in the 'normal store' quote. He said yeah, just do it hourly.

So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
the original was a bit over $7000.

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
amount. I said, "yes, you can stop giving fixed-price quotes on anything
without a concrete spec to start with."

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http://www.hazelconsulting.com/
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dave@...
skype: hazelconsulting
gtalk:kananii
http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel
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Re: Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T08:30:19Z

bet there are enough of these "tales of woe" to publish a nice short story compilation.

You know, something to read the kids at night when they say they want to grow up to be like daddy and mommy.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff@...> wrote:

I've been a development consultant in one flavor or another (freelance,
humongous computer company, software house, etc.) since punch cards, and
at one point was managing consultant for an international development
practice, so I've seen just about everything...enough to where I am an
independent freelancer now and don't miss the rest :-)

So I have an associate who is a Flash guy, who tosses me online stores
to do a couple-few times a year. It's normally an informal thing, in
terms of him telling me what's involved in the way of anything unusual
with shipping, product options, the other gotchas, and I give him a price.

He comes to me with a site that had an oscommerce store and wants a new
site. Normal cart, nothing special. Only 18 products. Some templating. I
had other things on my calendar, and he needed this started right away,
and said he'd pay double. So I totaled it up, and quote $2500.

Not long after it started, it became obvious that there was going to be
trouble. His client had another consultant under hire, who had wanted
the store business, and in addition to being bent out of shape about not
getting it, managed to get inserted between the owners and my contractor
as a "PM". Those of you who have been PM's will appreciate 'being one'
yet not having a specification, not wanting the project to succeed, and
having nothing be your fault (when I was a PM, the responsibility for
everything fell on me).

But the real issue was that the store was far from normal. A short list
of the customizations I had to make to Ubercart include

-importing a csv file - column format inconsistent - containing
tracking information for orders, where the order had to have packaging,
shipment, and status automatically created and updated and an email sent

-automatically exporting orders as edi

-writing a script to import the oscommerce data

-custom admin reports

-creating an intermediary payment gateway (since Ubercart can't
handle two being active) to handle a special card

-modifying the credit system to account for the normal cards needing
CVV but this other card not only not having CVV but not having an
expiration date

I looked at all of that (by way of a 'QA' document the 'PM' sent...which
basically said where is this stuff?) and told him that none of this was
included in the 'normal store' quote. He said yeah, just do it hourly.

So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
the original was a bit over $7000.

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
amount. I said, "yes, you can stop giving fixed-price quotes on anything
without a concrete spec to start with."

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Ah, the trials and tribulations of sub-ing - a tale of woe

2009-11-24T08:19:18Z

I've been a development consultant in one flavor or another (freelance,
humongous computer company, software house, etc.) since punch cards, and
at one point was managing consultant for an international development
practice, so I've seen just about everything...enough to where I am an
independent freelancer now and don't miss the rest :-)

So I have an associate who is a Flash guy, who tosses me online stores
to do a couple-few times a year. It's normally an informal thing, in
terms of him telling me what's involved in the way of anything unusual
with shipping, product options, the other gotchas, and I give him a price.

He comes to me with a site that had an oscommerce store and wants a new
site. Normal cart, nothing special. Only 18 products. Some templating. I
had other things on my calendar, and he needed this started right away,
and said he'd pay double. So I totaled it up, and quote $2500.

Not long after it started, it became obvious that there was going to be
trouble. His client had another consultant under hire, who had wanted
the store business, and in addition to being bent out of shape about not
getting it, managed to get inserted between the owners and my contractor
as a "PM". Those of you who have been PM's will appreciate 'being one'
yet not having a specification, not wanting the project to succeed, and
having nothing be your fault (when I was a PM, the responsibility for
everything fell on me).

But the real issue was that the store was far from normal. A short list
of the customizations I had to make to Ubercart include

-importing a csv file - column format inconsistent - containing
tracking information for orders, where the order had to have packaging,
shipment, and status automatically created and updated and an email sent

-automatically exporting orders as edi

-writing a script to import the oscommerce data

-custom admin reports

-creating an intermediary payment gateway (since Ubercart can't
handle two being active) to handle a special card

-modifying the credit system to account for the normal cards needing
CVV but this other card not only not having CVV but not having an
expiration date

I looked at all of that (by way of a 'QA' document the 'PM' sent...which
basically said where is this stuff?) and told him that none of this was
included in the 'normal store' quote. He said yeah, just do it hourly.

So we get to the end of the project, and (a) I decide not to charge him
double for the hourly stuff nor my expedited/out-of-hours uplift, most
of it having been done at night because I was putting in 12-16 hours a
day, (b) I even gave him a 10% courtesy discount, and the invoice BEYOND
the original was a bit over $7000.

He called and asked whether there wasn't something we could do about the
amount. I said, "yes, you can stop giving fixed-price quotes on anything
without a concrete spec to start with."

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:47:29Z

Me too.
------Original Message------
From: Cameron Eagans
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
ReplyTo: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: Re: [consulting] Professionalism
Sent: Nov 24, 2009 7:45 AM

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Sam Cohen <sam@...> wrote:

> That said, I've seen many larger shops tell their clients that this isn't a
> job for them and that the client would be wise to find a freelancer or small
> shop who can do it as a fraction of the price.
>

On that note, I own a small Drupal shop and can do it at a fraction of
that price!

-----
Cameron Eagans
Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC
http://www.blackstormsstudios.com
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Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:45:07Z

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Sam Cohen <sam@...> wrote:

> That said, I've seen many larger shops tell their clients that this isn't a
> job for them and that the client would be wise to find a freelancer or small
> shop who can do it as a fraction of the price.
>

On that note, I own a small Drupal shop and can do it at a fraction of
that price!

-----
Cameron Eagans
Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC
http://www.blackstormsstudios.com
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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:41:27Z

Steve Kessler wrote:
> Should a company disclose project management hours vs. development hours
vs. admin/billing hours?

You are quite right. Unfortunately, the OP didn't detail the contents of the
contract. I believe it would be prudent for the bidder to detail any
contract over 8 hours, including the recovery of the bid preparation costs.

Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King,
Jr.

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:30:55Z

It makes perfect sense to me that a company with payroll to meet, rent to pay and lots of expenses would not even consider a job for less than, say, $3000. And if I had to guess, that's what's happening here. They're pricing it at what makes sense for their business model.

That said, I've seen many larger shops tell their clients that this isn't a job for them and that the client would be wise to find a freelancer or small shop who can do it as a fraction of the price.

This goes the other way too. Freelancers who have really big sites come their way, should sometimes pass them on to larger companies who are more capable of handling it -- and the larger companies should be passing the small jobs and sites to the freelancers and small shops.

Sam

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@...> wrote:

Fred Jones wrote:
> hired a fancy NYC company ... custom node template, based on a PSD.

That seems pretty darned expensive to me. When I worked at IBM, nothing
could be done by one person. You had to have an account manager, project
manager, architect, QA, etc. Each had his/her own hours to bill, and none
would be as low as $100/hr. However, that still seems quite high to theme a
node, but I've never worked with a PSD. I've done several node type
templates and not even my first one when I had to learn took 33 hours. If
they have to do some hooks to make sure variables are available, it could
easily take more than 3 hours, but nowhere close to 33.

Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King,
Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Fred Jones
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:09 AM
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: [consulting] Professionalism

I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just to
customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
special fields, but it's still just a node template.

I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
to make one node template!

I don't understand how they are able to have enough business and a
good enough reputation to be charging high prices if they don't know
what they're doing. Because they don't--33 hours for a node template
is silly I think. The other programmer we use could do it in 3 hours I
think (and he's less than $100). He's just busy...

F

PS: Thank you for listening to my rant. I feel better now. :)
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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:28:48Z

Coming from the NYC area, I know most of the Drupal shops around here. Now
I don't know which firm was contracted, but I can venture to guess, and if
I'm right on which firm it was, I wouldn't be too surprised by that quote,
coming from them.

Nancy's right. In a lot of cases with larger companies, nothing is done by
a single person. You're not hiring a consultant, you're hiring a company,
and every person on the team assigned to your project has billable hours.
For creating a node template, do they need a team of 4 people? Probably
not, but if they can get away with billing you hours for 4 people, why
wouldn't they?

I worked at a company a few years ago that contracted with a firm to develop
a module. We would have weekly status update calls, where they would put 10
of their employees on a conference call with us. And they would bill for
every person for that hour. That was a $1000 hour, once a week. At the
end, we got slapped with a 6 figure bill for a module that didn't even work.
My point is, is that it's not so uncommon for a company to try to get away
with taking advantage of clients if they can. After all, you don't need to
contract with them, if you don't like it. But since your regular developer
is too busy, they've kind of got you over a hump.

Working from PSD's is, in my opinion, the easiest way to theme. It
basically gives you exactly what the client wants the node to look like. I
prefer to have a clear view of what the client wants things to look like.
It takes the guess work out of theming.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration,

Michael Goldsmith
(732) 619-6865 - mobile
ixlr8@... - email
http://www.platypustheory.com - website

-----Original Message-----
From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Nancy Wichmann
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:02 AM
To: 'A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers'
Subject: Re: [consulting] Professionalism

Fred Jones wrote:
> hired a fancy NYC company ... custom node template, based on a PSD.

That seems pretty darned expensive to me. When I worked at IBM, nothing
could be done by one person. You had to have an account manager, project
manager, architect, QA, etc. Each had his/her own hours to bill, and none
would be as low as $100/hr. However, that still seems quite high to theme a
node, but I've never worked with a PSD. I've done several node type
templates and not even my first one when I had to learn took 33 hours. If
they have to do some hooks to make sure variables are available, it could
easily take more than 3 hours, but nowhere close to 33.

Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King,
Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Fred Jones
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:09 AM
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: [consulting] Professionalism

I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just to
customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
special fields, but it's still just a node template.

I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
to make one node template!

I don't understand how they are able to have enough business and a
good enough reputation to be charging high prices if they don't know
what they're doing. Because they don't--33 hours for a node template
is silly I think. The other programmer we use could do it in 3 hours I
think (and he's less than $100). He's just busy...

F

PS: Thank you for listening to my rant. I feel better now. :)
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.79/2522 - Release Date: 11/23/09
14:45:00

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Re: Professionalism

2009-11-24T06:25:27Z

I don't think the issue at hand is if a node template takes 33 hours. The
issue is professionalism. Should a company disclose project management hours
vs. development hours vs. admin/billing hours? Is there a limit to how much
wiggle room you can give and still be ethical? For example if a developer
tells me it will take him 3 - 5 what should I tell the client including
project management and admin time? I could say 6 - 8 or I could say 3 -5
programming hours and 1-3 project management and admin hours? I am just
throwing this out there. Just like IBM we all have expenses and compensation
we need to cover just at different levels. If a firm wants to charge $100+
an hour and the market will allow it than a firm should do that (and to be
blunt $500+ if they can). I think the issue is keep professionalism in how
many hours we quote. If they said it 3 hours at $1,100 per-hour we might
gasp but could we question their professionalism?

The other thing that we must keep in mind is community support and code give
back. Denver DataMan has started budgeting hours into all our projects for
community give back? When I work out an estimate this is percentage of the
hours estimated that should be given to the Drupal community. Is there a
professionalism issue by adding hours to the quote or is it better to raise
my price $10.00 per-hour? We offer flat rates for most of our work as long
as we can define a clear scope so hours are only something I am using for
estimating (and paying contractors) not a final number that the client sees
in most cases.

Just my hypothetical questions.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve Kessler
Denver DataMan
303-587-4428

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Wichmann [mailto:nan_wich@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:02 AM
To: 'A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers'
Subject: Re: [consulting] Professionalism

Fred Jones wrote:
> hired a fancy NYC company ... custom node template, based on a PSD.

That seems pretty darned expensive to me. When I worked at IBM, nothing
could be done by one person. You had to have an account manager, project
manager, architect, QA, etc. Each had his/her own hours to bill, and none
would be as low as $100/hr. However, that still seems quite high to theme a
node, but I've never worked with a PSD. I've done several node type
templates and not even my first one when I had to learn took 33 hours. If
they have to do some hooks to make sure variables are available, it could
easily take more than 3 hours, but nowhere close to 33.

Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King,
Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Fred Jones
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:09 AM
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: [consulting] Professionalism

I work with someone on a Drupal 6 site and he hired a fancy NYC
company (that charges well over $100 / hour) to do some more work on
the site. The client asked me to write up a certain job and include
some time estimates. Part of it is a custom node template, based on a
PSD. The site template remains the same--this node template is just to
customize the content section. OK, it may involve a *bit* of PHP for
special fields, but it's still just a node template.

I estimated 3 hours and the NYers 33 hours. They estimate over $3300
to make one node template!

I don't understand how they are able to have enough business and a
good enough reputation to be charging high prices if they don't know
what they're doing. Because they don't--33 hours for a node template
is silly I think. The other programmer we use could do it in 3 hours I
think (and he's less than $100). He's just busy...

F

PS: Thank you for listening to my rant. I feel better now. :)
_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.79/2522 - Release Date: 11/23/09
14:45:00

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