Drupal Certification (was: General consultant's vent)

[Tom Geller]

This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering  
preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's  
always been low among their priorities.

Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:

   http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification

Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal Association  
would be the appropriate body to run a certification program:

   http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association

I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit  
authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and  
encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark  
protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests beyond  
the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."

DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their  
right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but  
still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead.  
Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone  
from claiming that leadership role.

---
           Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
              Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
     articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books




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[Roshan Shah]

For the same reasons of  no clear Drupal Trademark policy, many
companies are in wait and watch mode.  Is there a level playing field
for everyone or is it only Acquia that can offer add-on offerings with
Dries at helm there?

Roshan
--
Gloscon Solutions Inc - http://www.gloscon.com/portfolio
* Drupal and Ruby on Rails Powerhouse
Skype : bpocanada
T : 604.630.4292 (Canada)
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On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Tom Geller<tom@...> wrote:

> This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering
> preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's always
> been low among their priorities.
>
> Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:
>
>  http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification
>
> Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal Association would
> be the appropriate body to run a certification program:
>
>  http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association
>
> I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit
> authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and
> encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark
> protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests beyond the
> purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."
>
> DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their right.
> I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but still think it
> would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead. Uncertainly over the
> Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone from claiming that leadership
> role.
>
> ---
>          Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
>             Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
>    articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>

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[Bill Fitzgerald]

Hello, all,

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a certification program would be
completely useless, and that the certifications would be worth less than
the paper they were printed on. I articulated some of these reasons a
while back; most of these reasons remain unchanged:
http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/consulting/2007-December/002267.html

But, with that said, nothing is stopping any shop from creating and
managing a certification program. The catch with any credentialing
program, however, is that the issue body needs to have some credibility.
If Shop X starts issuing a "Drupal Uber-Ninja Certification Program"
it's not going to mean much, except that maybe Shop X talked to some
marketing and Biz-dev folks and came up with a catchy name for a program
that might make them some money. The value of that credential will
decrease rapidly over time (if indeed it ever had any value to start
with), simply because Drupal development practice evolves rapidly over time.

So, if there are shops out there who want to start a certification
program, by all means, go ahead. Nothing is stopping any shop from doing
this. The challenge will be in having the value of that credential mean
anything.

Personally, I don't care about tech credentials or certifications; I've
met far too many * Certified people that I wouldn't trust to get me
coffee -- but then again, I'm pretty picky with my coffee.

Cheers,

Bill

Tom Geller wrote:

> This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering
> preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's always
> been low among their priorities.
>
> Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:
>
>   http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification
>
> Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal Association
> would be the appropriate body to run a certification program:
>
>   http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association
>
> I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit
> authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and
> encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark
> protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests beyond
> the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."
>
> DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their
> right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but
> still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead.
> Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone from
> claiming that leadership role.
>
> ---
>           Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
>              Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
>     articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

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[Ayen Designs]

Looking at it historically, I see certification having the same
'promise' as software frameworks replacing the developer. I've seen huge
infrastructure certification processes for Project Managers (PMI),
computers (MCSE), etc. They prove the person has great memory, often for
trivia, and some problem-solving skills. The typical PHP certification
is more of a PHP trivia test than anything else. It doesn't prove diddly
about the developer having any of the intuition or thought-process
needed for developing good code, good business rules, or even being able
to understand specs. The PM certification doesn't tell me that when the
critical path has gone critical that the PM won't collapse into a bowl
of jello and make serious judgment errors. Not to malign offshore
developers, but through much experience I can say that there is a fairly
consistent issue of developers outside the west understanding the
unwritten business assumptions, aesthetics and other intangibles that
one expects to be present in design and development, unless those things
are spelled out in agonizing detail. However, these same folks can score
very high on certification exams.

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[Bill Fitzgerald]

Ayen Designs wrote:

> Not to malign offshore
> developers, but through much experience I can say that there is a fairly
> consistent issue of developers outside the west understanding the
> unwritten business assumptions, aesthetics and other intangibles that
> one expects to be present in design and development, unless those things
> are spelled out in agonizing detail. However, these same folks can score
> very high on certification exams.
>

In my experience, this has *nothing* to do with the geographic location
of the shop, and *everything* to do with the type of shop. You can find
good and bad shops on every continent.

Drupal is an international community, with valuable contributions coming
in from people and shops all over the globe.

Cheers,

Bill
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[Victor Kane-2]

To be thoroughly clear on this topic: the basic problem is not whether one is in favor or against certification programs per se. The problem is, who makes them, who designs them, for what purposes and to defend whose interests?

If a certification program is created by big corporations looking to commoditize development, drive down wages, and create a buyers' market, with a view to controlling the process for their own gains and using it to stamp out those organizing to defend the rights of those doing the work, then it will be a "good" program if it achieves that end, but "good" for them, not us.

I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of certification program to help folks get work and learn the trade when they are new, and to create sustainable forms of communication so that those seeking services are well served, and that the needs of the people are truly met.

So it depends. But I can't help but feeling that any worthwhile such program would look a lot like the meritocracy that has sort of existed in the Drupal community for a long time: people helping each other to get started using and developing, reputations based on contributions to the community and general awesomeness in actual practice.

Victor Kane

http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Ayen Designs <info@...> wrote:

Looking at it historically, I see certification having the same 'promise' as software frameworks replacing the developer. I've seen huge infrastructure certification processes for Project Managers (PMI), computers (MCSE), etc. They prove the person has great memory, often for trivia, and some problem-solving skills. The typical PHP certification is more of a PHP trivia test than anything else. It doesn't prove diddly about the developer having any of the intuition or thought-process needed for developing good code, good business rules, or even being able to understand specs. The PM certification doesn't tell me that when the critical path has gone critical that the PM won't collapse into a bowl of jello and make serious judgment errors. Not to malign offshore developers, but through much experience I can say that there is a fairly consistent issue of developers outside the west understanding the unwritten business assumptions, aesthetics and other intangibles that one expects to be present in design and development, unless those things are spelled out in agonizing detail. However, these same folks can score very high on certification exams.

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consulting@...
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[Brian Vuyk-2]

I tend to think a Drupal certification would be a bad thing as well.

   1. Clients being what they are, if a certification becomes somewhat
      common, it will become much more difficult to get freelancing work
      without it.
   2. For that matter, every IT / tech recruiter posting a job
      description on any job sites will now require it.
   3. Certificate exam would need to be retaken every time a new version
      of Drupal comes out.
   4. Unless cost is very low, this is an added barrier to entry for
      small shops and freelancers.

What confuses me most, is what problem are we trying to solve with a
certificate program? A strong portfolio and contributions history tell
far more than any certification ever could. A certification says nothing
about a developers ability to manage a project, work ethic, or
creativity, all of which vastly impact the development process far more
than a set of Drupal-related trivia ever could.

In short, a certificate doesn't remove from the client the
responsibility to do their homework about a developers experience, and
meet with them.

Brian Vuyk

Bill Fitzgerald wrote:

> Hello, all,
>
> Personally, I'm of the opinion that a certification program would be
> completely useless, and that the certifications would be worth less
> than the paper they were printed on. I articulated some of these
> reasons a while back; most of these reasons remain unchanged:
> http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/consulting/2007-December/002267.html
>
> But, with that said, nothing is stopping any shop from creating and
> managing a certification program. The catch with any credentialing
> program, however, is that the issue body needs to have some
> credibility. If Shop X starts issuing a "Drupal Uber-Ninja
> Certification Program" it's not going to mean much, except that maybe
> Shop X talked to some marketing and Biz-dev folks and came up with a
> catchy name for a program that might make them some money. The value
> of that credential will decrease rapidly over time (if indeed it ever
> had any value to start with), simply because Drupal development
> practice evolves rapidly over time.
>
> So, if there are shops out there who want to start a certification
> program, by all means, go ahead. Nothing is stopping any shop from
> doing this. The challenge will be in having the value of that
> credential mean anything.
>
> Personally, I don't care about tech credentials or certifications;
> I've met far too many * Certified people that I wouldn't trust to get
> me coffee -- but then again, I'm pretty picky with my coffee.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill
>
> Tom Geller wrote:
>> This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering
>> preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's
>> always been low among their priorities.
>>
>> Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:
>>
>>   http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification
>>
>> Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal
>> Association would be the appropriate body to run a certification
>> program:
>>
>>   http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association
>>
>> I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit
>> authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and
>> encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark
>> protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests
>> beyond the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."
>>
>> DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their
>> right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but
>> still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead.
>> Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone
>> from claiming that leadership role.
>>
>> ---
>>           Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
>>              Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
>>     articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> consulting mailing list
>> consulting@...
>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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[Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg]

> I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of certification program to help folks get work and learn the trade when they are new, and to create sustainable forms of communication so that those seeking services are well served, and that the needs of the people are truly met.

Amen!

--
Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg
ZivTech, LLC
http://zivtech.com
alex@...
office: [phone]
cell: [phone]
skype: zivtech
aim: zivtech


On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Victor Kane <victorkane@...> wrote:

>
> To be thoroughly clear on this topic: the basic problem is not whether one is in favor or against certification programs per se. The problem is, who makes them, who designs them, for what purposes and to defend whose interests?
> If a certification program is created by big corporations looking to commoditize development, drive down wages, and create a buyers' market, with a view to controlling the process for their own gains and using it to stamp out those organizing to defend the rights of those doing the work, then it will be a "good" program if it achieves that end, but "good" for them, not us.
> I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of certification program to help folks get work and learn the trade when they are new, and to create sustainable forms of communication so that those seeking services are well served, and that the needs of the people are truly met.
> So it depends. But I can't help but feeling that any worthwhile such program would look a lot like the meritocracy that has sort of existed in the Drupal community for a long time: people helping each other to get started using and developing, reputations based on contributions to the community and general awesomeness in actual practice.
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Ayen Designs <info@...> wrote:
>>
>> Looking at it historically, I see certification having the same 'promise' as software frameworks replacing the developer. I've seen huge infrastructure certification processes for Project Managers (PMI), computers (MCSE), etc. They prove the person has great memory, often for trivia, and some problem-solving skills. The typical PHP certification is more of a PHP trivia test than anything else. It doesn't prove diddly about the developer having any of the intuition or thought-process needed for developing good code, good business rules, or even being able to understand specs. The PM certification doesn't tell me that when the critical path has gone critical that the PM won't collapse into a bowl of jello and make serious judgment errors. Not to malign offshore developers, but through much experience I can say that there is a fairly consistent issue of developers outside the west understanding the unwritten business assumptions, aesthetics and other intangibles that one expe

 cts to be present in design and development, unless those things are spelled out in agonizing detail. However, these same folks can score very high on certification exams.

>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> consulting mailing list
>> consulting@...
>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>

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[Victor Kane-2]

Under the present social circumstances, I agree with this completely.

Victor Kane

http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Brian Vuyk <brian@...> wrote:

I tend to think a Drupal certification would be a bad thing as well.

 1. Clients being what they are, if a certification becomes somewhat
    common, it will become much more difficult to get freelancing work
    without it.
 2. For that matter, every IT / tech recruiter posting a job
    description on any job sites will now require it.
 3. Certificate exam would need to be retaken every time a new version
    of Drupal comes out.
 4. Unless cost is very low, this is an added barrier to entry for
    small shops and freelancers.

What confuses me most, is what problem are we trying to solve with a certificate program? A strong portfolio and contributions history tell far more than any certification ever could. A certification says nothing about a developers ability to manage a project, work ethic, or creativity, all of which vastly impact the development process far more than a set of Drupal-related trivia ever could.

In short, a certificate doesn't remove from the client the responsibility to do their homework about a developers experience, and meet with them.

Brian Vuyk

Bill Fitzgerald wrote:

Hello, all,

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a certification program would be completely useless, and that the certifications would be worth less than the paper they were printed on. I articulated some of these reasons a while back; most of these reasons remain unchanged: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/consulting/2007-December/002267.html

But, with that said, nothing is stopping any shop from creating and managing a certification program. The catch with any credentialing program, however, is that the issue body needs to have some credibility. If Shop X starts issuing a "Drupal Uber-Ninja Certification Program" it's not going to mean much, except that maybe Shop X talked to some marketing and Biz-dev folks and came up with a catchy name for a program that might make them some money. The value of that credential will decrease rapidly over time (if indeed it ever had any value to start with), simply because Drupal development practice evolves rapidly over time.

So, if there are shops out there who want to start a certification program, by all means, go ahead. Nothing is stopping any shop from doing this. The challenge will be in having the value of that credential mean anything.

Personally, I don't care about tech credentials or certifications; I've met far too many * Certified people that I wouldn't trust to get me coffee -- but then again, I'm pretty picky with my coffee.

Cheers,

Bill

Tom Geller wrote:

This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's always been low among their priorities.

Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:

 http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification

Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal Association would be the appropriate body to run a certification program:

 http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association

I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests beyond the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."

DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead. Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone from claiming that leadership role.

---
         Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
            Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
   articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books




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[Brian Vuyk-2]

I disagree.

The basic problem is whether one is even needed or not. Discussing who
should administer said certification program already assumes one will
exist to begin with, which I fail to see the need for.

Brian

Victor Kane wrote:
> To be thoroughly clear on this topic: the basic problem is not whether
> one is in favor or against certification programs per se. The problem
> is, who makes them, who designs them, for what purposes and to defend
> whose interests?

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[Victor Kane-2]

In the present social regime of capitalist monopoly, I agree with you.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Brian Vuyk <brian@...> wrote:

I disagree.

The basic problem is whether one is even needed or not. Discussing who should administer said certification program already assumes one will exist to begin with, which I fail to see the need for.

Brian

Victor Kane wrote:

To be thoroughly clear on this topic: the basic problem is not whether one is in favor or against certification programs per se. The problem is, who makes them, who designs them, for what purposes and to defend whose interests?

_______________________________________________
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[Brian Vuyk-2]

I should have added this to my prior email, but I didn't see it until
Alex's reply...

Since the point is now to help folks get work and learn the trade, then
this isn't a certification program, but a course.

I think these are two different concepts. There are several courses &
books available to teach Drupal, which new developers with any
initiative should already be looking up / researching. Why would we tie
this to an official certification that is just going to inconvenience
other veteran developers?

Brian

Victor Kane wrote:
> I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of
> production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of
> certification program to help folks get work and learn the trade when
> they are new, and to create sustainable forms of communication so that
> those seeking services are well served, and that the needs of the
> people are truly met.

_______________________________________________
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[Trevor Twining-2]

I agree with the assertion that such certifications are of suspect  
value. I think using more community training to build our capacity to  
handle projects in a competent manner would be of much greater use. I  
think this counts for both public (community supported) and private  
(commercial) training activities.

There's also the benefit of looking at a developer's community  
contributions. This is still, and will remain for some time, an  
important source of information for determining competence with  
drupal. To the extent that a developer has a portfolio, references,  
and a complete drupal profile outlining their activity within the  
community, they will be able to command a higher rate. The  
contributions also have the benefit of being peer reviewed, and are  
therefore a stronger measure of capability, IMO

Great thread, enjoying the conversation.

TT

Trevor Twining
trevor@...
CivicActions: hook_world_alter()


On 7-Aug-09, at 9:37 AM, Bill Fitzgerald wrote:

> Hello, all,
>
> Personally, I'm of the opinion that a certification program would be  
> completely useless, and that the certifications would be worth less  
> than the paper they were printed on. I articulated some of these  
> reasons a while back; most of these reasons remain unchanged: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/consulting/2007-December/002267.html
>
> But, with that said, nothing is stopping any shop from creating and  
> managing a certification program. The catch with any credentialing  
> program, however, is that the issue body needs to have some  
> credibility. If Shop X starts issuing a "Drupal Uber-Ninja  
> Certification Program" it's not going to mean much, except that  
> maybe Shop X talked to some marketing and Biz-dev folks and came up  
> with a catchy name for a program that might make them some money.  
> The value of that credential will decrease rapidly over time (if  
> indeed it ever had any value to start with), simply because Drupal  
> development practice evolves rapidly over time.
>
> So, if there are shops out there who want to start a certification  
> program, by all means, go ahead. Nothing is stopping any shop from  
> doing this. The challenge will be in having the value of that  
> credential mean anything.
>
> Personally, I don't care about tech credentials or certifications;  
> I've met far too many * Certified people that I wouldn't trust to  
> get me coffee -- but then again, I'm pretty picky with my coffee.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill
>
> Tom Geller wrote:
>> This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was  
>> considering preparation of a certification system ("Yellow  
>> Jersey"), but it's always been low among their priorities.
>> Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:
>>  http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification
>> Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal  
>> Association would be the appropriate body to run a certification  
>> program:
>>  http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association
>> I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit  
>> authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and  
>> encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark  
>> protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests  
>> beyond the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."
>> DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their  
>> right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things...  
>> but still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the  
>> lead. Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages  
>> anyone from claiming that leadership role.
>> ---
>>          Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
>>             Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
>>    articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books
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>
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[Ayen Designs]

No, it has a lot to do with the location...just not the specific
location. I, given spec that is loose enough to depend on my cultural
sensibilities, would develop just as questionable a result writing
software for a company in India or China or anywhere outside my sphere,
but I may have a perfect score on the certification. The point was that
that, as just one example, is why certification doesn't speak to the
suitability of the person for the purpose, only that they have memorized
the core material.

Bill Fitzgerald wrote:

> Ayen Designs wrote:
>
>> Not to malign offshore developers, but through much experience I can
>> say that there is a fairly consistent issue of developers outside the
>> west understanding the unwritten business assumptions, aesthetics and
>> other intangibles that one expects to be present in design and
>> development, unless those things are spelled out in agonizing detail.
>> However, these same folks can score very high on certification exams.
>>

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[Ayen Designs]

Here, here. Uh, but wait...what percentage of software is being bought
by socialists as opposed to capitalist monopolies? And if everyone went
socialist, they'd all need the same software.


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[Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg]

> Since the point is now to help folks get work and learn the trade, then this
> isn't a certification program, but a course.
>
> I think these are two different concepts. There are several courses & books
> available to teach Drupal, which new developers with any initiative should
> already be looking up / researching. Why would we tie this to an official
> certification that is just going to inconvenience other veteran developers?

What I'd really like to see is a good definition of what it means to be a "Profressional" Drupal Developer and/or Shop, which I don't think is as simple as courses, since what we're really talking about is real world experience. I really think that we should be moving in the general direction that Victor points to, but I'm thinking more along the lines of how Trade Unions are run (i.e. there is a ladder to climb, mostly tied to experience, to achieve "master" status). The big issue with this would be the youth of the technology.

But still, what about a Drupal Developers/Shops Guild?

--
Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg
ZivTech, LLC
http://zivtech.com
alex@...
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cell: [phone]
skype: zivtech
aim: zivtech



On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Brian Vuyk<brian@...> wrote:
> I should have added this to my prior email, but I didn't see it until Alex's
> reply...
>
> Since the point is now to help folks get work and learn the trade, then this
> isn't a certification program, but a course.
>
> I think these are two different concepts. There are several courses & books
> available to teach Drupal, which new developers with any initiative should
> already be looking up / researching. Why would we tie this to an official
> certification that is just going to inconvenience other veteran developers?
>
> Brian
>
> Victor Kane wrote:
>>
>> I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of
>> production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of certification
>> program to help folks get work and learn the trade when they are new, and to
>> create sustainable forms of communication so that those seeking services are
>> well served, and that the needs of the people are truly met.
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>


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[Victor Kane-2]

+1 concrete form of international organization for developers who have nothing to sell but their labor.

Victor

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg <Alex@...> wrote:

> Since the point is now to help folks get work and learn the trade, then this
> isn't a certification program, but a course.
>
> I think these are two different concepts. There are several courses & books
> available to teach Drupal, which new developers with any initiative should
> already be looking up / researching. Why would we tie this to an official
> certification that is just going to inconvenience other veteran developers?

What I'd really like to see is a good definition of what it means to be a "Profressional" Drupal Developer and/or Shop, which I don't think is as simple as courses, since what we're really talking about is real world experience. I really think that we should be moving in the general direction that Victor points to, but I'm thinking more along the lines of how Trade Unions are run (i.e. there is a ladder to climb, mostly tied to experience, to achieve "master" status). The big issue with this would be the youth of the technology.

But still, what about a Drupal Developers/Shops Guild?

--
Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg
ZivTech, LLC
http://zivtech.com
alex@...
office: [phone]
cell: [phone]
skype: zivtech
aim: zivtech

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Brian Vuyk<brian@...> wrote:
> I should have added this to my prior email, but I didn't see it until Alex's
> reply...
>
> Since the point is now to help folks get work and learn the trade, then this
> isn't a certification program, but a course.
>
> I think these are two different concepts. There are several courses & books
> available to teach Drupal, which new developers with any initiative should
> already be looking up / researching. Why would we tie this to an official
> certification that is just going to inconvenience other veteran developers?
>
> Brian
>
> Victor Kane wrote:
>>
>> I am a socialist, and I believe the workers should own the means of
>> production. Then it could make sense to form some kind of certification
>> program to help folks get work and learn the trade when they are new, and to
>> create sustainable forms of communication so that those seeking services are
>> well served, and that the needs of the people are truly met.
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>

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[Greg Knaddison - GVS]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg<Alex@...> wrote:
> But still, what about a Drupal Developers/Shops Guild?

3-4 years ago folks started down this path.  It died fairly quickly.
I don't think it would actually be helpful at solving the problems it
sets out to solve, though maybe the market is different enough now in
some way that it would be helpful.

I'll maintain my previous stance: the best "certification program" we
have is the drupal.org user profile.

Cheers,
Greg

--
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Cracking Drupal - Learn to protect your Drupal site from hackers
Now available from Wiley http://crackingdrupal.com
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[Cary Gordon]

I think that running a certification program would be counter to the mission of the Drupal Association. On the other hand, I think that the DA and the Drupal community in general would be happy to see such a program or programs established.

Cary Gordon

Drupal Association Board Member

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Tom Geller <tom@...> wrote:

This subject comes up frequently. I know that Acquia was considering preparation of a certification system ("Yellow Jersey"), but it's always been low among their priorities.

Something on this subject became the most-commented post on my blog:

 http://tomgeller.com/content/market-ready-drupal-certification

Then in a post shortly after that, I suggested that Drupal Association would be the appropriate body to run a certification program:

 http://tomgeller.com/content/why-support-drupal-association

I wrote, "[DA could] fulfill functions best served by a non-profit authority. While I find commercial interest in Drupal exciting and encouraging, some functions -- such as certification and trademark protection -- are best served by a neutral party with interests beyond the purely financial. Drupal Association is that authority."

DA never expressed an interest in that -- which is fine, and their right. I'm among those who questions the value of such things... but still think it would be great to try. Alas, nobody's taking the lead. Uncertainly over the Drupal trademark IMHO also discourages anyone from claiming that leadership role.

---
         Tom Geller  *  Oberlin, Ohio  *  415-317-1805
            Writer/Editor * http://www.tomgeller.com
   articles, marketing, training materials, user guides, books




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The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com

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[Cary Gordon]

I don't think that this is about the value of such a program, as much as it is about addressing a part of the market that perceives them to be important.

The political part escapes me entirely.

Cary

--
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com

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