Drupal Certification and Requirements

[Chris Johnson-21]

And now my curmudgeonly view:

Most of the time, certification in software development technologies
is a negative when it appears on resumes, etc.  As a hiring manager,
I've always wondered exactly why the person spent the time and money
to get the certificate, and if that time and effort might not have
been better spent practicing the skills or otherwise gaining practical
experience.  This is especially true for younger or less experienced
candidates.

The vast majority of software certification programs seem to exist
mostly as a way to make money for the certifier, despite how expensive
they may be to develop.

I happen to be familiar with the technologies and methodologies used
by some of the biggest professional certification and testing
organizations.  I learned a lot of the testing is fairly bogus from a
real "do you know the subject" point of view.  Just as with any kind
of testing for knowledge, the certification tests also suffer from the
common problems of tests in that regard.  Students who are good at
rote memorization and good at test taking excel at -- well, taking
tests.  Same with certification for the most part.  In hiring someone,
I want someone who will be good at the job, not good at taking tests
or good at collecting certificates.

None of the best software developers I know have any certifications,
as far as I know.  A lot of them are college drop-outs, or in a few
cases, never even went to college and are completely self taught!

Gaining wisdom and good judgment in software development are not
easily acquired traits.  They are likewise not easy to judge when
hiring someone, and they are even more difficult to test or certify.

I might have some certificates, for something.  In a box in a closet
somewhere.  I don't recall; I've never needed them.  :-)
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[Liam McDermott-2]

Chris Johnson wrote:
> Students who are good at rote memorization and good at test taking excel at
> -- well, taking tests.  Same with certification for the most part.  In hiring someone,
> I want someone who will be good at the job, not good at taking tests
> or good at collecting certificates.
With this in mind, does Drupal have to take a conventional approach to
certification? Consider this:

   * traditional certification sucks;
   * practical experience is all that counts;
   * a good measure is contributions to the Drupal community;

Maybe a certification could be based upon completing a practical
project. The exam might have only one question: 'Write a contributed
module to do x' (it could require examinees to write documentation too).
This also has the added advantage of not needing to be re-written every
time the Drupal API changes. The disadvantage is that the results would
be difficult to mark, not sure if this stops the idea being viable, but
is food for thought none the less.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.
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[Chris Johnson-21]

A practical exam based upon completing a module is an interesting
idea, and certainly a novel approach.  Understanding how most of
Drupal works and being able to use that knowledge are probably among
the key things that a Drupal developer would need to know.  Can the
former be mapped onto the latter in some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
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[Paola Di Maio-2]

(apols for typos and forwarded messages, having sticky keyboard issues
and my mails are bouncing - heck)

 >Can the
> former be mapped onto the latter in some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.

I think so, you'll just have to think about the different combinations

I like the idea of exploring novel ways of 'certifying' (documenting)
people's experience
while staying away from the worst aspects of certification (the
speculative useless part).

Certification for the core modules could be one thing
(prove that developer has knowledge of php, mysql and how drupal works
in principle, and that you have contributed to some modules etc),
that would give me some peace of mind that you are not  just a  drupal
cowboy on the loose

Plus a per module thing (admittedly drupal is pretty huge and a bit
heterogeneous so you cant expect everyone to know everything)

This could mean that when I  hire devs based on their profile to form
a team, and I may have something else to fall back on than just their
good word

It would have to be near zero cost both to develop and to undertake,
if you ask me

Let me know if you need my help with the concept, I would be happy to
contribute other things to the community - as I cannot contribute code

Best

PDM





On Dec 21, 2007 3:17 PM, Chris Johnson <cxjohnson@...> wrote:

> A practical exam based upon completing a module is an interesting
> idea, and certainly a novel approach.  Understanding how most of
> Drupal works and being able to use that knowledge are probably among
> the key things that a Drupal developer would need to know.  Can the
> former be mapped onto the latter in some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Liam McDermott-2]

Chris Johnson wrote:
> Understanding how most of Drupal works and being able to use that
> knowledge are probably among the key things that a Drupal developer
> would need to know.  Can the former be mapped onto the latter in
>  some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees are
given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like the
following failure points:

   * module doesn't work or doesn't implement specified functionality;
   * module has been copied from the Internet (cheating);
   * did not adhere to coding style;
   * used database system specific PHP function call, e.g. mysql_query();
   * generated UI elements without theme functions or forms API;
   * uploaded/manipulated files without using the file interface;

In the driving test examinees are allowed to make a certain number of
minor mistakes too, example Drupal minor mistakes: minor errors in
coding style (like forgetting a newline before an else {), not writing
portable SQL, or allowing data processing into their theme functions. So
examinees must write a module without triggering any of the failure
conditions (and without making too many minor mistakes). Then the
examiner just uses the check list of problems to look for.

The modules coded in tests could roughly implement the topics on this
page (or the important ones like FAPI, database abstraction etc.):
http://api.drupal.org/api/groups this could make a good start.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.
_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Victor Kane-2]

Hi all,
 
All posts here are well meaning... but there are a few premises which in my opinion are faulty and bear deeper examination.

One premise I find most faulty is "Drupal is entering the corporate world, it must shape up to standards".

At the heart of this apparently commensensical affirmation is an (unwitting?) hiding of the fact that it is the corporate world that is turning to open source communities as a way of improving quality that marks the epoch, and not the inverse. And there are reasons for this.

Drupal's intelligence as being practically a virtual machine while remaining procedural, its clean super modular approach, etc., is a result of what already works: the bazaar: we must avoid the temptation of the cathedral.

That is, the excellence, the quality, is the result of a huge mass of people aiming the bullets of their rifles at the same place, plus the natural acceptance of meritocracy.

In other words, the quality of Drupal arises out of the dynamics of a natural open source community. Attempt to overmanage that, attempt to meddle with what is already working, is to allow the same people who brought you corporate buyouts, the US mortgage-banking crisis and the Katrina aftermath to bring their excellent organization skills to the table.

The corporate world has been with Drupal for quite some time now, and is enjoying it as it is. Those 7 million dollars for Acquia didn't come out of thin air. Offices opening in China neither. And the purchase of smaller shops by larger shops could be a healthy thing and then again... where have we seen that pattern before?

Another premise I find faulty here is that of the emphasis upon individual certification. In the real IT world, quality sites come out of collectives, cooperatives, studios, companies, groups working together, and following some kind of capability maturity model. And corporations realizing that their vertical systems of organization clash with quality, among other things, so that the best projects come from outsourcing and insourcing. Without wanting to change the nature of the thread, I would say that quality arises out of some kind of marriage between the capability maturity model (a concrete plan for quality improvement over the years in a stable organization) married to some kind of agile approach to development. And the capability maturity model includes excellence in dealing with suppliers. Excellence in treating us, the Drupal consultants, so as to get the best results.

The third kind of premise I find faulty here is the "every time I hire someone they fail" variety. That's like blaming the bus drivers for the traffic jams. Here's the contradiction. Drupal is an extremely productive framework. That leads many unscrupulous businesses to dream up get rich quick schemes and to think that Drupal is a magic cloak for easy exploitation of "Web 2.0". So, just like every other corporate boss, they want to hire someone quick, squeeze the brainy juice out of them and start counting their money. Or in the case of some non-profits, they expect instant solutions while offering little in the way of technical stakeholders.

So I would submit for consideration the counterpart: the instability of many corporations and NGO's lead to excessive demands, the need for everything to be ready "yesterday", the need to extract a pound of flesh from the hirelings. More than certification, we need a bloody union.

So, let's beware of corporate crises and hysterical forms of organization overturning the carts in the bazaar, let's beware of crass individualism and the hiding of the group effort and the fact that one is standing on the shoulders of giants, and let's beware of corporate greed as a tool of organization, and let's beware of the need to extract surplus value from Drupal developers as a building block of quality and excellence.

And let's beware of tinkering with something that is already working. And let's beware of what is demonstrably not working in the world as a whole.

More than certification we need a bloody union!!!

Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Dec 21, 2007 7:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@...> wrote:

Chris Johnson wrote:
> Understanding how most of Drupal works and being able to use that
> knowledge are probably among the key things that a Drupal developer
> would need to know.  Can the former be mapped onto the latter in
>  some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.

Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees are
given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like the
following failure points:

  * module doesn't work or doesn't implement specified functionality;
  * module has been copied from the Internet (cheating);
  * did not adhere to coding style;
  * used database system specific PHP function call, e.g. mysql_query();
  * generated UI elements without theme functions or forms API;
  * uploaded/manipulated files without using the file interface;

In the driving test examinees are allowed to make a certain number of
minor mistakes too, example Drupal minor mistakes: minor errors in
coding style (like forgetting a newline before an else {), not writing
portable SQL, or allowing data processing into their theme functions. So
examinees must write a module without triggering any of the failure
conditions (and without making too many minor mistakes). Then the
examiner just uses the check list of problems to look for.

The modules coded in tests could roughly implement the topics on this
page (or the important ones like FAPI, database abstraction etc.):
http://api.drupal.org/api/groups this could make a good start.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.

_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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[Paola Di Maio-2]

HI Victor
very quickly scanned thorough your mail
You make some good points

I am not sure that all the premises as you 'read then' were actually intended
as the original meaning

brief comments below



> One premise I find most faulty is "Drupal is entering the corporate world,
> it must shape up to standards".
I am not sure this was a premise for this thread. More perhaps, in my reading
'drupal is more and more widely adopted, and there is an increasingly
scarcity of
drupal skills out there'

the corporate vs social world is another issue imho which I dont enter
into right now

>
>
> Another premise I find faulty here is that of the emphasis upon individual
> certification. In the real IT world, quality sites come out of collectives,
> cooperatives, studios, companies, groups working together, and following
> some kind of capability maturity model. ...> Excellence in treating us, the Drupal consultants, so as to get the best > results.

sure - I dont think that any form of documentation of skills would
contradict any of the above


>
> The third kind of premise I find faulty here is the "every time I hire
> someone they fail" variety.

I dont say that at all. It's that I have to work very hard and
exchange dozens of emails with lots of strangers and do a lot of
vetting, etc to find a suitable drupal developer, who is both
available, willing, honest, reasoably priced, capable etc etc -  and
the risk is high!  the costs of implementing a Drupal solution these
days, risks of becoming higher and higher because of skills shortage
(from my personal experience) \
Such shortage may also be only 'perceived', as there may be maybe many
great devs who never are listed on the drupal website. you must give
them a chance to come out too...
I mean when I need a drupal developer it turns like a full time job


> , we need a bloody union.

haha - why not?

and maybe also a interfaith sect

cheers

PDM

>
> So, let's beware of corporate crises and hysterical forms of organization
> overturning the carts in the bazaar, let's beware of crass individualism and
> the hiding of the group effort and the fact that one is standing on the
> shoulders of giants, and let's beware of corporate greed as a tool of
> organization, and let's beware of the need to extract surplus value from
> Drupal developers as a building block of quality and excellence.
>
> And let's beware of tinkering with something that is already working. And
> let's beware of what is demonstrably not working in the world as a whole.
>
> More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
>
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 7:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@... > wrote:
> >
> > Chris Johnson wrote:
> > > Understanding how most of Drupal works and being able to use that
> > > knowledge are probably among the key things that a Drupal developer
> > > would need to know.  Can the former be mapped onto the latter in
> > >  some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
> > Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
> > the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees are
> > given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
> > failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
> > when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like the
> > following failure points:
> >
> >   * module doesn't work or doesn't implement specified functionality;
> >   * module has been copied from the Internet (cheating);
> >   * did not adhere to coding style;
> >   * used database system specific PHP function call, e.g. mysql_query();
> >   * generated UI elements without theme functions or forms API;
> >   * uploaded/manipulated files without using the file interface;
> >
> > In the driving test examinees are allowed to make a certain number of
> > minor mistakes too, example Drupal minor mistakes: minor errors in
> > coding style (like forgetting a newline before an else {), not writing
> > portable SQL, or allowing data processing into their theme functions. So
> > examinees must write a module without triggering any of the failure
> > conditions (and without making too many minor mistakes). Then the
> > examiner just uses the check list of problems to look for.
> >
> > The modules coded in tests could roughly implement the topics on this
> > page (or the important ones like FAPI, database abstraction etc.):
> > http://api.drupal.org/api/groups this could make a good start.
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Liam McDermott.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting@...
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Victor Kane-2]

Thanks for your comments, Paola.

I think, at the heart of the matter, is, that the food chain: need something done, must hire someone, do it... is faulty.

To get quality, an organization must form a stable group working together, or learn how to recognize one.

For small items, it is possible to find a good mentor, it is possible to find someone to fix a bug. For projects that matter, a stable group of people must face the challenge, or else people working under the supervision of those capable of creating small productive units.

For projects that matter, you cannot just hire someone properly certified, etc., and say go to it.

What I am saying is that this discussion thread doesn't address the growing complexity of the projects the excellence of Drupal allows to be even contemplated.

And as a card carrying memeber of the Drupal Union (I wish) I would say: there abound good, well qualified individuals. Just take a look at the Drupal Dojo initiative, for example. What is really lacking, and this is the cause of many failures, is the way those individuals can be brought together to get the job done.

So certification will not solve what is at the heart of the failure rate.

Victor

On Dec 21, 2007 8:39 AM, <paola.dimaio@... > wrote:

HI Victor
very quickly scanned thorough your mail
You make some good points

I am not sure that all the premises as you 'read then' were actually intended
as the original meaning

brief comments below

> One premise I find most faulty is "Drupal is entering the corporate world,
> it must shape up to standards".

I am not sure this was a premise for this thread. More perhaps, in my reading
'drupal is more and more widely adopted, and there is an increasingly
scarcity of
drupal skills out there'

the corporate vs social world is another issue imho which I dont enter
into right now

>
>
> Another premise I find faulty here is that of the emphasis upon individual
> certification. In the real IT world, quality sites come out of collectives,
> cooperatives, studios, companies, groups working together, and following

> some kind of capability maturity model. ...> Excellence in treating us, the Drupal consultants, so as to get the best > results.

sure - I dont think that any form of documentation of skills would
contradict any of the above

>
> The third kind of premise I find faulty here is the "every time I hire
> someone they fail" variety.

I dont say that at all. It's that I have to work very hard and
exchange dozens of emails with lots of strangers and do a lot of
vetting, etc to find a suitable drupal developer, who is both
available, willing, honest, reasoably priced, capable etc etc -  and
the risk is high!  the costs of implementing a Drupal solution these
days, risks of becoming higher and higher because of skills shortage
(from my personal experience) \
Such shortage may also be only 'perceived', as there may be maybe many
great devs who never are listed on the drupal website. you must give
them a chance to come out too...
I mean when I need a drupal developer it turns like a full time job

> , we need a bloody union.

haha - why not?

and maybe also a interfaith sect

cheers

PDM

>
> So, let's beware of corporate crises and hysterical forms of organization
> overturning the carts in the bazaar, let's beware of crass individualism and
> the hiding of the group effort and the fact that one is standing on the
> shoulders of giants, and let's beware of corporate greed as a tool of
> organization, and let's beware of the need to extract surplus value from
> Drupal developers as a building block of quality and excellence.
>
> And let's beware of tinkering with something that is already working. And
> let's beware of what is demonstrably not working in the world as a whole.
>
> More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
>
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 7:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@... > wrote:
> >
> > Chris Johnson wrote:
> > > Understanding how most of Drupal works and being able to use that
> > > knowledge are probably among the key things that a Drupal developer
> > > would need to know.  Can the former be mapped onto the latter in
> > >  some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
> > Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
> > the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees are
> > given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
> > failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
> > when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like the
> > following failure points:
> >
> >   * module doesn't work or doesn't implement specified functionality;
> >   * module has been copied from the Internet (cheating);
> >   * did not adhere to coding style;
> >   * used database system specific PHP function call, e.g. mysql_query();
> >   * generated UI elements without theme functions or forms API;
> >   * uploaded/manipulated files without using the file interface;
> >
> > In the driving test examinees are allowed to make a certain number of
> > minor mistakes too, example Drupal minor mistakes: minor errors in
> > coding style (like forgetting a newline before an else {), not writing
> > portable SQL, or allowing data processing into their theme functions. So
> > examinees must write a module without triggering any of the failure
> > conditions (and without making too many minor mistakes). Then the
> > examiner just uses the check list of problems to look for.
> >
> > The modules coded in tests could roughly implement the topics on this
> > page (or the important ones like FAPI, database abstraction etc.):
> > http://api.drupal.org/api/groups this could make a good start.
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Liam McDermott.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting@...
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
_______________________________________________

consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Paola Di Maio-2]

.
>
> So certification will not solve what is at the heart of the failure rate.
>

you may be right there, something else may need to be done too
but a proper innovative 'certification' , if correctly done in the
same community spirit that Drupal has as its core, may reduce some of
the current uncertainties that some Drupal users face
(perhaps)

cheers

PDM

> Victor
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 8:39 AM, <paola.dimaio@... > wrote:
> > HI Victor
> > very quickly scanned thorough your mail
> > You make some good points
> >
> > I am not sure that all the premises as you 'read then' were actually
> intended
> > as the original meaning
> >
> > brief comments below
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > One premise I find most faulty is "Drupal is entering the corporate
> world,
> > > it must shape up to standards".
> > I am not sure this was a premise for this thread. More perhaps, in my
> reading
> > 'drupal is more and more widely adopted, and there is an increasingly
> > scarcity of
> > drupal skills out there'
> >
> > the corporate vs social world is another issue imho which I dont enter
> > into right now
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Another premise I find faulty here is that of the emphasis upon
> individual
> > > certification. In the real IT world, quality sites come out of
> collectives,
> > > cooperatives, studios, companies, groups working together, and following
> > > some kind of capability maturity model. ...> Excellence in treating us,
> the Drupal consultants, so as to get the best > results.
> >
> > sure - I dont think that any form of documentation of skills would
> > contradict any of the above
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The third kind of premise I find faulty here is the "every time I hire
> > > someone they fail" variety.
> >
> > I dont say that at all. It's that I have to work very hard and
> > exchange dozens of emails with lots of strangers and do a lot of
> > vetting, etc to find a suitable drupal developer, who is both
> > available, willing, honest, reasoably priced, capable etc etc -  and
> > the risk is high!  the costs of implementing a Drupal solution these
> > days, risks of becoming higher and higher because of skills shortage
> > (from my personal experience) \
> > Such shortage may also be only 'perceived', as there may be maybe many
> > great devs who never are listed on the drupal website. you must give
> > them a chance to come out too...
> > I mean when I need a drupal developer it turns like a full time job
> >
> >
> >
> > > , we need a bloody union.
> >
> > haha - why not?
> >
> > and maybe also a interfaith sect
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > PDM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > So, let's beware of corporate crises and hysterical forms of
> organization
> > > overturning the carts in the bazaar, let's beware of crass individualism
> and
> > > the hiding of the group effort and the fact that one is standing on the
> > > shoulders of giants, and let's beware of corporate greed as a tool of
> > > organization, and let's beware of the need to extract surplus value from
> > > Drupal developers as a building block of quality and excellence.
> > >
> > > And let's beware of tinkering with something that is already working.
> And
> > > let's beware of what is demonstrably not working in the world as a
> whole.
> > >
> > > More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
> > >
> > > Victor Kane
> > > http://awebfactory.com.ar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 21, 2007 7:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@... >
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris Johnson wrote:
> > > > > Understanding how most of Drupal works and being able to use that
> > > > > knowledge are probably among the key things that a Drupal developer
> > > > > would need to know.  Can the former be mapped onto the latter in
> > > > >  some sort of systematic way?  Hmm.
> > > > Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
> > > > the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees
> are
> > > > given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
> > > > failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
> > > > when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like
> the
> > > > following failure points:
> > > >
> > > >   * module doesn't work or doesn't implement specified functionality;
> > > >   * module has been copied from the Internet (cheating);
> > > >   * did not adhere to coding style;
> > > >   * used database system specific PHP function call, e.g.
> mysql_query();
> > > >   * generated UI elements without theme functions or forms API;
> > > >   * uploaded/manipulated files without using the file interface;
> > > >
> > > > In the driving test examinees are allowed to make a certain number of
> > > > minor mistakes too, example Drupal minor mistakes: minor errors in
> > > > coding style (like forgetting a newline before an else {), not writing
> > > > portable SQL, or allowing data processing into their theme functions.
> So
> > > > examinees must write a module without triggering any of the failure
> > > > conditions (and without making too many minor mistakes). Then the
> > > > examiner just uses the check list of problems to look for.
> > > >
> > > > The modules coded in tests could roughly implement the topics on this
> > > > page (or the important ones like FAPI, database abstraction etc.):
> > > > http://api.drupal.org/api/groups this could make a good start.
> > > >
> > > > Kind Regards,
> > > > Liam McDermott.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > consulting mailing list
> > > > consulting@...
> > > > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > consulting mailing list
> > > consulting@...
> > > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paola Di Maio
> > School of IT
> > www.mfu.ac.th
> > *********************************************
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting@...
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
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[Liam McDermott-2]

Victor Kane wrote:
> All posts here are well meaning... but there are a few premises which in
> my opinion are faulty and bear deeper examination.
Very interesting reply. I have to say though, it doesn't really seem to
have much to do with what everyone else was talking about. :)

> Drupal's intelligence as being practically a virtual machine while
> remaining procedural, its clean super modular approach, etc., is a
> result of what already works: the bazaar: we must avoid the temptation
> of the cathedral.
Absolutely and good point. I think that's why most people in this thread
were saying we don't need certification. Personally I just treated as an
interesting brain teaser, just trying to think of a certification method
that would work.

> The corporate world has been with Drupal for quite some time now, and is
> enjoying it as it is.
I don't know, my wife works at a well known tech university and they're
standardising on Sharepoint. In fact Sharepoint is gaining a scary
amount of traction. There's always room for improvement, particularly in
ways that will increase the credibility of Drupal in the world of the PHBs.

> So I would submit for consideration the counterpart: the instability of
> many corporations and NGO's lead to excessive demands, the need for
> everything to be ready "yesterday", the need to extract a pound of flesh
> from the hirelings. More than certification, we need a bloody union.
Hmmm, not sure about this. Employment law is good enough in most
countries is good enough to negate the need for unions, depends where
you are I suppose. Perhaps a co-op would be a better idea?

> More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
Isn't this a false dichotomy? Couldn't we have both: the community could
organise the certification. To continue the Bazaar approach: the exams
could consist of work that contributes to the community.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.

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[Ashraf Amayreh]

Certificates are plain waste of time and effort. Especially with things like the test king that make idiots top scorers, it simply is a waste of time. Worse yet is certificates which are expensive enough to prevent some people from getting. To top all that, they simply concentrate on memory rather than problem solving skills which is what really distinguishes a good developer from a book worm. I've been a developer and in two years took on the position of technology expert, I developed in VB, .NET, JAVA and PHP, I don't much care what language I program in. Problem solving skills are language neutral.

If I look for a beginner then what I interview is simply a charismatic personality and I try to gouge the effort they put to learn, how they would approach a problem. I could ask about code they attempted to tinker with. Usually assets are the type who have played with a couple of projects or ideas at one time or another. If I look for an expert I simply look at his achievements as well as his personality.

In the end the ultimate decision is not a risk-free endeavor. But I agree with Victor, a company has to be prepared to truly nurture people rather than draining them and expecting perfection and leaving no margins for an error or a delay here or there. When I want someone who I would consider an asset, I would not care in the least what languages he worked with, it usually takes so little time for an exceptional developer to get acquainted with new technology if given a book or a kick start. In case of drupal expertise, just look for someone with contributions such as modules or patches to modules or core. It's that simple.

On Dec 21, 2007 2:31 PM, Liam McDermott <liam@...> wrote:

Victor Kane wrote:
> All posts here are well meaning... but there are a few premises which in
> my opinion are faulty and bear deeper examination.

Very interesting reply. I have to say though, it doesn't really seem to
have much to do with what everyone else was talking about. :)

> Drupal's intelligence as being practically a virtual machine while
> remaining procedural, its clean super modular approach, etc., is a
> result of what already works: the bazaar: we must avoid the temptation
> of the cathedral.

Absolutely and good point. I think that's why most people in this thread
were saying we don't need certification. Personally I just treated as an
interesting brain teaser, just trying to think of a certification method
that would work.

> The corporate world has been with Drupal for quite some time now, and is
> enjoying it as it is.

I don't know, my wife works at a well known tech university and they're
standardising on Sharepoint. In fact Sharepoint is gaining a scary
amount of traction. There's always room for improvement, particularly in
ways that will increase the credibility of Drupal in the world of the PHBs.

> So I would submit for consideration the counterpart: the instability of
> many corporations and NGO's lead to excessive demands, the need for
> everything to be ready "yesterday", the need to extract a pound of flesh
> from the hirelings. More than certification, we need a bloody union.

Hmmm, not sure about this. Employment law is good enough in most
countries is good enough to negate the need for unions, depends where
you are I suppose. Perhaps a co-op would be a better idea?

> More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
Isn't this a false dichotomy? Couldn't we have both: the community could
organise the certification. To continue the Bazaar approach: the exams
could consist of work that contributes to the community.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.

_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
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--
Ashraf Amayreh
http://blogs.aamayreh.org
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[Paola Di Maio-2]

Hi Ashraf

I think there is agreeement that 'cetrificates' can be a  huge waste
of time and money
but when well designed, they actually can save a lot of time and money

I think what we are proposing here is an alternative model

and anyway, we all have different requirements
I am primarily a lecturer and researcher, and every other week I get
involved with a project
that requires a website for which I do not have time to do fundraising
so I end up paying out of my personal budgets

I do not have the focus to 'nurture a drupal organisation' -
my good drupal friends are always willing to give me a hand for free,
but I must work withing
clear requirements and tight budgets for many of my projects, and
cannot live on 'asking people favours' forever

this means, that my requirements, which is different from yours, need
to be on the table too
If someone can be helpd by some form of cert, then why should others
prevent that?

cheers

PDM


On Dec 21, 2007 7:56 PM, Ashraf Amayreh <mistknight@...> wrote:

> Certificates are plain waste of time and effort. Especially with things like
> the test king that make idiots top scorers, it simply is a waste of time.
> Worse yet is certificates which are expensive enough to prevent some people
> from getting. To top all that, they simply concentrate on memory rather than
> problem solving skills which is what really distinguishes a good developer
> from a book worm. I've been a developer and in two years took on the
> position of technology expert, I developed in VB, .NET, JAVA and PHP, I
> don't much care what language I program in. Problem solving skills are
> language neutral.
>
>  If I look for a beginner then what I interview is simply a charismatic
> personality and I try to gouge the effort they put to learn, how they would
> approach a problem. I could ask about code they attempted to tinker with.
> Usually assets are the type who have played with a couple of projects or
> ideas at one time or another. If I look for an expert I simply look at his
> achievements as well as his personality.
>
>  In the end the ultimate decision is not a risk-free endeavor. But I agree
> with Victor, a company has to be prepared to truly nurture people rather
> than draining them and expecting perfection and leaving no margins for an
> error or a delay here or there. When I want someone who I would consider an
> asset, I would not care in the least what languages he worked with, it
> usually takes so little time for an exceptional developer to get acquainted
> with new technology if given a book or a kick start. In case of drupal
> expertise, just look for someone with contributions such as modules or
> patches to modules or core. It's that simple.
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 2:31 PM, Liam McDermott < liam@...> wrote:
> >
> > Victor Kane wrote:
> > > All posts here are well meaning... but there are a few premises which in
> > > my opinion are faulty and bear deeper examination.
> > Very interesting reply. I have to say though, it doesn't really seem to
> > have much to do with what everyone else was talking about. :)
> >
> >
> > > Drupal's intelligence as being practically a virtual machine while
> > > remaining procedural, its clean super modular approach, etc., is a
> > > result of what already works: the bazaar: we must avoid the temptation
> > > of the cathedral.
> > Absolutely and good point. I think that's why most people in this thread
> > were saying we don't need certification. Personally I just treated as an
> > interesting brain teaser, just trying to think of a certification method
> > that would work.
> >
> >
> > > The corporate world has been with Drupal for quite some time now, and is
> > > enjoying it as it is.
> > I don't know, my wife works at a well known tech university and they're
> > standardising on Sharepoint. In fact Sharepoint is gaining a scary
> > amount of traction. There's always room for improvement, particularly in
> > ways that will increase the credibility of Drupal in the world of the
> PHBs.
> >
> >
> > > So I would submit for consideration the counterpart: the instability of
> > > many corporations and NGO's lead to excessive demands, the need for
> > > everything to be ready "yesterday", the need to extract a pound of flesh
> > > from the hirelings. More than certification, we need a bloody union.
> > Hmmm, not sure about this. Employment law is good enough in most
> > countries is good enough to negate the need for unions, depends where
> > you are I suppose. Perhaps a co-op would be a better idea?
> >
> > > More than certification we need a bloody union!!!
> > Isn't this a false dichotomy? Couldn't we have both: the community could
> > organise the certification. To continue the Bazaar approach: the exams
> > could consist of work that contributes to the community.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Liam McDermott.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting@...
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ashraf Amayreh
> http://blogs.aamayreh.org
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
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consulting mailing list
consulting@...
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[Greg Knaddison-3]

My background: Early in my career I became an Oracle Certified
something-or-other and completed several Solaris training course.
After that first job, using Oracle and Solaris combined has only been
1% of any job and no employer has cared about either training (afaik).

On Dec 21, 2007 10:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@...> wrote:
> Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test in
> the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world). Examinees are
> given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
> failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
> when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like the
> following failure points:

I really like the idea of a module as proof that you know what you are
doing, but I think it has some problems.

Given that sharing/modifying code is so easy, I don't know how we
would catch the "cheats." Also, this would require people to spend
time working on modules (and themes) that serve no purpose beyond
proving some level of knowledge.

Which gets us back to the idea of "Your contributions prove you are
good at Drupal, not some piece of paper."  A contrib module, patches
in the queue (better: committed), prove the knowledge.  It also shows
that you "get" open source and contribute back.  Community skills are
as important to me in a coworker as any sort of php/mysql/css skillz.

My "certification" of a Drupal expert:

1. Ask for their Drupal.org username - look at the age of their user,
the completeness of the profile
2.  Search the list archives for the name they use on the mailing
lists.  What kinds of conversations do they participate in?  Do they
contribute ideas and responses as often as they request support?
3. Look at their user page for commits to any projects, check the
"track" tab and their "code" tab - read a few of the threads and see
how they interact with the community.  Are they a leech?  Are they
nice?  Repeat cycle on Groups.Drupal.org
4. If they have committed to a module, run it through the "coder"
module to see if it passes the basic tests.  Then review the module
itself for signs of knowledge of Drupal core.  If they have submitted
issues, take a look at their descriptions and patches that they
provided.  Did any get committed?
5. Grab the cvs-release-notes.php file [1] and run it on a particular
release of Drupal like from Drupal-4-7-0 to DRUPAL-5-1  and then
search the output for their username.  When someone contributes to an
issue they should be credited in the commit of that patch.  The more
mentions, the better.

One perceived weakness of this system may be that it weights heavily
on community involvement.  That is a strength of the test in my
opinion.  The only exception I would make from this is for people who
do not know English well enough to participate in the community.

As Liam remarked, failure on any one of these may not rule someone out.

This "certification" has several benefits over traditional types of
certifications:
1. It already exists and was cheap to develop
2. It is easy and free to "sit" for the certification
3. Rather than giving profits to certification admins or testing
centers it motivates people to contribute work to the project we all
love so much
4. Only one small part of what I suggested involves actually looking
at code.  The rest of them can be evaluated by anyone comfortable
installing a Drupal module required for coder module).

*The most important benefit:
5. you get an understanding of the person and their skills that no
certification could get close to providing.  Why create a
certification process when we already have something much, much
better.

If someone wants to be certified using my process just send me an
email. I'll be happy to do it ;)

Regards,
Greg

[1] http://cvs.drupal.org/viewvc.py/drupal/contributions/tricks/cvs-release-notes/cvs-release-notes.php

--
Greg Knaddison
Denver, CO | http://knaddison.com
World Spanish Tour | http://wanderlusting.org/user/greg
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[Paola Di Maio-2]

> If someone wants to be certified using my process just send me an
> email. I'll be happy to do it ;)
>
I ll take you up on that. Will send you developers for 'validation', hehe
thanks!
PDM
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[Liam McDermott-2]

Ashraf Amayreh wrote:
> Certificates are plain waste of time and effort. Especially with things
> like the test king that make idiots top scorers, it simply is a waste of
> time. Worse yet is certificates which are expensive enough to prevent
> some people from getting. To top all that, they simply concentrate on
> memory rather than problem solving skills which is what really
> distinguishes a good developer from a book worm.
In the case of a normal certification yes, we're not talking about a
normal certification process though. Please read the posts you're
replying to before weighing in with your own views. :)

> In case of drupal expertise, just look for someone with
> contributions such as modules or patches to modules or core. It's that
> simple.
This, in my opinion, would be what a Drupal certification would consist
of. The examinee would be given particular contributions to make that
would exercise their abilities at Drupal concepts. The examiner checks
whether they made any bad mistakes (and not too many minor mistakes) and
they get certification.

To be honest the more I think about it though, the more I think it
sounds like the McDonalds star system: 'Oooh, look I got my FAPI star!'
That's not a good thing, but it would allow employers to easily find
developers with the required skill set.

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.
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[Liam McDermott-2]

paola.dimaio@... wrote:
>> If someone wants to be certified using my process just send me an
>> email. I'll be happy to do it ;)
>>
> I ll take you up on that. Will send you developers for 'validation', hehe
> thanks!
> PDM
As well as being a funny remark (if a little snarky), this is a good
point. A couple of questions for PDM:

  1. Is this roughly the process you use for finding job candidates?
  2. Does it work well?
  3. Would it really help if someone did it for you?

Pretty much agree with Greg's ideas on using community contributions as
a metric. The only problem with this approach is making sure a candidate
has completed tasks (patched bugs, written modules, documentation etc.)
that cover Drupal concepts and its API.

Catching cheats (if the tasks were standard) would mostly consist of a
Google search, agreed that this wouldn't catch all of them though.
Perhaps the best route is somewhere in-between standard tasks and
contributions; some selection on the bug form to include it as a
'certification task', and a list of Drupal concepts involved in
completing it. Then a View where examinees can select tasks to pick-up
and complete.

Certification could be a little like Google Summer of Code or GHOP, but
with shiny awards.

Kind Regards,
Liam.
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[Karoly Negyesi]

If you want to test for Drupal core knowledge, one can take a HEAD at
a certain date and grab an issue which had been solved and give them
that as a task to be solved. Unless they know core off head, they
won't know the exact solution which they need to find. Finding tasks
like this is not hard.
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[ximo]

This is an interesting discussion, and an inevitable one considering  
the growth of Drupal these days. I've just listened in so far, but  
thought I'd share my view on this.

While a "build me a module" test would show if the candidate adheres  
to the coding styles, best practices, etc.. it doesn't show how good a  
programmer (problem solver) the candidate is. It can tell if the  
person can drive a car according to the traffic rules, but doesn't  
show how good a driver they are. A Formula 1 driver and an old lady in  
a Lada could get the same score in a test like this.

I totally agree with Greg that community involvement is a better  
benchmark. Drupal.org already provides us with a lot of information  
about each registered user and their involvement in the project. I  
think one would get a good impression of a user's skill level just by  
looking at their involvement, and it would certainly rule out  
cheating. While the information is all there, it does require you to  
do a lot of research - which is so time consuming that Paolo would  
rather have Greg do it ;)

Why not have drupal.org automate all of this? The website ohloh.net  
already does this to some degree, and even ranks users on different  
factors (activity, commits, years involved, lines modified, commit  
ratio), as well as allowing users to give each other kudos. This is  
all in the spirit of open source, where you are what you give. See http://www.ohloh.net/projects/3502/analyses/latest/contributors 
  for a list of non-core contributors to Drupal.

Ranking of users is one thing, but what I have in mind is a consise  
and centralized overview of a user's contributions and involvement on  
drupal.org. A "Profile" tab on the user's account page would do.  
Graphs (activity), statistics (patches, commits and accredited core  
commits), mailing list topics, links to recent patches and commits...

I just had an idea - could the Coder module be made into an automated  
validation service? Like the W3C validators, only for Drupal modules  
hosted on drupal.org!


Joakim (ximo)

On Dec 21, 2007, at 14:21, Greg Knaddison wrote:

> My background: Early in my career I became an Oracle Certified
> something-or-other and completed several Solaris training course.
> After that first job, using Oracle and Solaris combined has only been
> 1% of any job and no employer has cared about either training (afaik).
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 10:27 AM, Liam McDermott <liam@intermedia-
> online.com> wrote:
>> Thinking about the way other practical tests work, the driving test  
>> in
>> the UK comes to mind (probably the same across the world).  
>> Examinees are
>> given a set of tasks and if they complete them without triggering any
>> failure conditions--such as breaking the speed limit, not indicating
>> when turning etc.--then they pass. Drupal could have something like  
>> the
>> following failure points:
>
> I really like the idea of a module as proof that you know what you are
> doing, but I think it has some problems.
>
> Given that sharing/modifying code is so easy, I don't know how we
> would catch the "cheats." Also, this would require people to spend
> time working on modules (and themes) that serve no purpose beyond
> proving some level of knowledge.
>
> Which gets us back to the idea of "Your contributions prove you are
> good at Drupal, not some piece of paper."  A contrib module, patches
> in the queue (better: committed), prove the knowledge.  It also shows
> that you "get" open source and contribute back.  Community skills are
> as important to me in a coworker as any sort of php/mysql/css skillz.
>
> My "certification" of a Drupal expert:
>
> 1. Ask for their Drupal.org username - look at the age of their user,
> the completeness of the profile
> 2.  Search the list archives for the name they use on the mailing
> lists.  What kinds of conversations do they participate in?  Do they
> contribute ideas and responses as often as they request support?
> 3. Look at their user page for commits to any projects, check the
> "track" tab and their "code" tab - read a few of the threads and see
> how they interact with the community.  Are they a leech?  Are they
> nice?  Repeat cycle on Groups.Drupal.org
> 4. If they have committed to a module, run it through the "coder"
> module to see if it passes the basic tests.  Then review the module
> itself for signs of knowledge of Drupal core.  If they have submitted
> issues, take a look at their descriptions and patches that they
> provided.  Did any get committed?
> 5. Grab the cvs-release-notes.php file [1] and run it on a particular
> release of Drupal like from Drupal-4-7-0 to DRUPAL-5-1  and then
> search the output for their username.  When someone contributes to an
> issue they should be credited in the commit of that patch.  The more
> mentions, the better.
>
> One perceived weakness of this system may be that it weights heavily
> on community involvement.  That is a strength of the test in my
> opinion.  The only exception I would make from this is for people who
> do not know English well enough to participate in the community.
>
> As Liam remarked, failure on any one of these may not rule someone  
> out.
>
> This "certification" has several benefits over traditional types of
> certifications:
> 1. It already exists and was cheap to develop
> 2. It is easy and free to "sit" for the certification
> 3. Rather than giving profits to certification admins or testing
> centers it motivates people to contribute work to the project we all
> love so much
> 4. Only one small part of what I suggested involves actually looking
> at code.  The rest of them can be evaluated by anyone comfortable
> installing a Drupal module required for coder module).
>
> *The most important benefit:
> 5. you get an understanding of the person and their skills that no
> certification could get close to providing.  Why create a
> certification process when we already have something much, much
> better.
>
> If someone wants to be certified using my process just send me an
> email. I'll be happy to do it ;)
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> [1] http://cvs.drupal.org/viewvc.py/drupal/contributions/tricks/cvs-release-notes/cvs-release-notes.php
>
> --
> Greg Knaddison
> Denver, CO | http://knaddison.com
> World Spanish Tour | http://wanderlusting.org/user/greg
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

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[Bill Fitzgerald]

Ashraf Amayreh wrote:

> In the end the ultimate decision is not a risk-free endeavor. But I
> agree with Victor, a company has to be prepared to truly nurture
> people rather than draining them and expecting perfection and leaving
> no margins for an error or a delay here or there. When I want someone
> who I would consider an asset, I would not care in the least what
> languages he worked with, it usually takes so little time for an
> exceptional developer to get acquainted with new technology if given a
> book or a kick start. In case of drupal expertise, just look for
> someone with contributions such as modules or patches to modules or
> core. It's that simple.

Absolutely, although I would also say that, in a talented dev, the right
personality can outweigh a lack of specific Drupal experience, as
php/Drupal can be learned. The ability to work constructively within a
team is much more difficult to teach/learn.

It also gets down to whether you view a hire as a short term solution to
a specific problem (ie, need more code!), or as a long-term relationship
with a person and their continually developing skill set. This also has
ramifications for how a shop structures deliverables and the development
schedules. Creative people (and great developers are creative people) do
their best work when they have the time to research, experiment, make
the occasional mistake, and then implement a solution. Looking at hiring
as part of your company's mission, and as an offshoot of your
development philosophy, helps to clarify what you look for in applicants.

I have yet to see any certification be of much use in judging any of
these attributes.

Cheers,

Bill

--
Bill Fitzgerald
http://www.funnymonkey.com
Tools for Teachers
503.897.7160

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[Paola Di Maio-2]

HI Liam

I think the skills validation idea may be serious, following whatever
approach suggested below is also an option (whatever works for you).
If someone could help me determine whether a developer has the best
possible skill to do the job, would save me money and time
because someone who knows their stuff can solve a problem real quickly,

>
>   1. Is this roughly the process you use for finding job candidates?

Nope- my IT skills are 'high level' (means I do not get anywhere near
implementation)
so I roughly outline the user functionality and coarse artchitectural
layout, then ask
around who could do it within my budget could they make of it - then
leave the rest to the devs

Being drupal developers on average a creative and adventurous bunch, I
have gone through an entire range of experiences

>From well wishers, students, would be coders, geeks from all walks of
life,  experienced programmers who want to charge me 60 dollars per
hour but cant tell me for sure how long its going to take them to do
the job, to people who give me unreasonable time estimates
and very few, only very few were capable of delivering the optimal
configuration within a time/money constraint: say, do the job within
2-3 days, which is what I calculate based on a rough function point
analysis type of estimate

I had to wait for 3 years to find someone who could migrate
content-wire,com and even then I took a leap. Really good consultants
were busy and only considered jobs r 3k up -
I had guys quoting me up to 22 thousand euros for the migration
(krreeeeeeiiiiks)
Friends who offered to do it for free but that could not work within
my time frame requirements
all sorts.

 I am lucky to have found a consultant who did the job well enough,
but I still have no way of knowing if we have the optimal
configuration and if everything is installed properly, just that they
did their best, the site is up and good enough, and have been always
prompt and professional in their work.

Note: I am not talking much new development! Just roll out a decent
drupal website with minimal customization and ad hoc config, which
should be doable within 6-8 hours of work at the most.

>   2. Does it work well?
Well - its very time consuming and risky, but I think a more standard
process can be evolved from that - maybe as a combination of the
proposed approaches


>   3. Would it really help if someone did it for you?
Yes! If you provide me a drupal geek validation service, I ll pay you a fee
to help me select the right geek for the job

Note: the right geek for the job for me is one that can work with me
on messenger, charges me a honest fee (say, not more than what I earn
per hour/day working as a lecturer) and that can set up a website in
the fastes possible way, abides to good coding and development
practices, and that does not get annoyed when I ask for tweaks and
improvements before writing off the task, etc -

>

> Catching cheats (if the tasks were standard) would mostly consist of a
> Google search, agreed that this wouldn't catch all of them though.

funny enough, I dont care about cheats at all - I have come across
guys who said they were cheating by scraping the code from somewhere
else. so what? as long as they acnowledge it, isnt this what os is
about? 'reuse'?
but still they need to be able to personalise whatever they scrape
elsewhere - and to bend it to fit the spec/requirement

I have come across very good geeks who did not have the faintest idea
about how to work
following even the remotest software engineering practice, and got all
upset when I asked them to  make well sure they tested their work
themselves  before getting me to check it out

I had to to find all the obvious bugs myself very often, cause the
devs felt that their job was to roll out the code, not to test it
(whoa)


> Perhaps the best route is somewhere in-between standard tasks and
> contributions; some selection on the bug form to include it as a
> 'certification task', and a list of Drupal concepts involved in
> completing it. Then a View where examinees can select tasks to pick-up
> and complete.

whatever - it would be nice to be left in the cold when we need to
find a developer
and/or not to have to committ to a full time job or a get a bank loan
to set up a drupal website

next best thing would be learn it myself, but that would be even more
risky in my case
:-)

what about some basic drupal  development training for non geeks? I ll
take that course
>


--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
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