Drupal Certification and Requirements

[Victor Kane-2]

I think this is a very interesting and very revealing exchange.

On Dec 21, 2007 9:57 PM, <paola.dimaio@...> wrote:

HI Liam

I think the skills validation idea may be serious, following whatever
approach suggested below is also an option (whatever works for you).
If someone could help me determine whether a developer has the best
possible skill to do the job, would save me money and time
because someone who knows their stuff can solve a problem real quickly,

I do feel that this should be possible in some way.
 

>
>   1. Is this roughly the process you use for finding job candidates?

Nope- my IT skills are 'high level' (means I do not get anywhere near
implementation)
so I roughly outline the user functionality and coarse artchitectural
layout, then ask
around who could do it within my budget could they make of it - then
leave the rest to the devs

This is, essentially, the waterfall approach... the approach to software development that the US Department of Defense blamed for an 80% failure rate in software projects: get all the requirements up front and have at it.

The reason this fails is that the objectives are of a minimum complexity such that at least 40% of the requirements will change before the project ends.

This has led to the ever widening adoption of iterative and incremental approaches, and more recently centering on agile approaches to software development: divide the project up into recognizable milestones, build frequently, and most importantly, major client involvement in test driven development so that the client is responsible for tests which can prove the required functionality is present in bite sized chunks, which is different "than doing coarse architectural layout and leaving the rest to the devs" 

 

Being drupal developers on average a creative and adventurous bunch, I
have gone through an entire range of experiences

With this method, you will fail every time, even with Einstein
 

>From well wishers, students, would be coders, geeks from all walks of
life,  experienced programmers who want to charge me 60 dollars per
hour but cant tell me for sure how long its going to take them to do
the job,

They are one hundred per cent right: they are being asked to work with a method that is imprecise. And there is no proper feasibility study, vision document, function point analysis, or even their equivalent on a coffee bar paper napkin. There is no clear presentation of the requirements, nor any attempt to do so, nor is there any clear statement of the criteria according to which the work is done (test driven development).

It is not that you do an occasional project. You evidently do many projects frequently. So you are refusing to make the necessary investment in either a functional analyst who can speak to the "devs" (shades of Brave New World) or else in an interactive, pro-active participation in the project yourself (even though you do suggest such below).
 

to people who give me unreasonable time estimates
and very few, only very few were capable of delivering the optimal
configuration within a time/money constraint: say, do the job within
2-3 days, which is what I calculate based on a rough function point
analysis type of estimate

A function point analysis gives just that: points. You have to consider human communication (shoved down some kind of formalization funnel) as well as the team productivity (high level of confidence and trust based on past experience) to get the to 2-3 days.
 

I had to wait for 3 years to find someone who could migrate
content-wire,com and even then I took a leap.

Right, as I have been suspecting, it is not that you have the occasional "brochure" site, your needs have a certain level of complexity. As well as the obvious question of whether or not the objectives are socially useful.
 

Really good consultants
were busy and only considered jobs r 3k up -

That would be because really good consultants understand the complexity of what they are being asked to do.

So, if the objectives are socially useful, you should be able to raise the funds to get the job done, if it is worth doing.
 

I had guys quoting me up to 22 thousand euros for the migration
(krreeeeeeiiiiks)
Friends who offered to do it for free but that could not work within
my time frame requirements

 

all sorts.

Yeah, diversity is a bummer.
 

 I am lucky to have found a consultant who did the job well enough,
but I still have no way of knowing if we have the optimal
configuration and if everything is installed properly, just that they
did their best, the site is up and good enough, and have been always
prompt and professional in their work.

That is because you take it upon yourself to know this, yet have not written a single black box acceptance test which was handed to the consultant previous to starting work on iterations.

If you can do function point analysis (for those that don't know, it can be roughly defined as a very useful, implementation transparent method of estimating complexity and hence time and costs upon flows of data and the complexity of that data into and out of the system) then you can bloody well write black box acceptance tests!!! Including load tests. Then you would know. Of course, testing is expensive (either in yours or someone's time or else in money), isn't it. Do you figure that in when you come up with your 2-3 days estimates?
 

Note: I am not talking much new development! Just roll out a decent
drupal website with minimal customization and ad hoc config, which
should be doable within 6-8 hours of work at the most.

If it were that simple you wouldn't be doing function point analysis. Also, there is no one-to-one relationship in any framework between requirements and implementation. Given a functional requirement, or feature, there is no way of knowing what architectural impact and risk is involved unless a (shudder) "dev" tells you first. For free, of course, I suppose.

(anti flame atmosphere note: Paola, I hope you do not take any of these critiques personally; it is just sooooo fascinating to see all the "failure" signs so clearly spread out, and it does affect the day to day lives of consultants)
 

>   2. Does it work well?

Well - its very time consuming and risky, but I think a more standard
process can be evolved from that - maybe as a combination of the
proposed approaches

Well, there you are. But not for "certification". Actually, for certification of the client! Because, what is going on with this social software stuff, is that the client must, must, must participate in the development. In order to get a job really done, the one-way vertical hierarchical "here's your job, do it" master-slave relationship has to be broken, not only because it is unjust, but because it cannot get the job done. And for success to be broken, there must be complicity to break down the master-slave relationship, even within the limitations of the capitalist system. Of course, people do not have to agree with my politics at all, and that is a "different subject". But projects fail the more vertical they are, and corporations know that. It is just that most of them are powerless (or else too powerful: too many people with privileges) to change that, most of them spend 22 billion dollars on a proprietary operating system (Vista) only for the Financial Times to suggest that no-one install it.
 

>   3. Would it really help if someone did it for you?

Yes! If you provide me a drupal geek validation service, I ll pay you a fee
to help me select the right geek for the job

You will fail even with Einstein. You, the client must geek it up to get the job done. Or else have a friend on your side you can do it for you. Or else find the right geek who can get someone to proxy for you.
 

Note: the right geek for the job for me is one that can work with me
on messenger,

 
Now here is a glimpse at a possible solution... but it must have method.

 

charges me a honest fee (say, not more than what I earn
per hour/day working as a lecturer)

well, now it is you saying that without socialism we cannot have efficiency, without socialism we cannot have anything but anarchy of production and war. you may be right. The thing is, part of this whole problem is the way added value is "calculated" within the confines of the current crisis of capitalism, the huge waves of speculation, the bubbles growing, then bursting (geeks washing dishes in San Francisco to pay their mortgages 'cause they can't move) ... this objective of yours, for a world in which people are qualified to do what they do and in which everyone receives decent wages, no-one earns that much more than others.... I agree with you.

But the real problem is, and this is why I even bother posting here at all (politics I can discuss in the actual struggle itself) is that we must get a method to work involving client geek complicity breaking all the vertical wall rules in order to get the job done (see http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-beck/ Working smarter, not harder, where there is the great quote "The project had serious problems -- everything from the contractual arrangement, to exhausted people, to lowered voices."). And to get that job done within the confines of the crisis and anarchy of capitalist "production" (waves of hysterical speculation, by which Web 2.0 is partially fueled).
 

and that can set up a website in
the fastes possible way, abides to good coding and development
practices, and that does not get annoyed when I ask for tweaks and
improvements before writing off the task, etc -

certification of the client is the only way to get this done. I always invest a huge amount in attempting (and not always succeeding) in training my clients as part of the work. Takes longer, but the objective you are putting forward there (and it is a laudable one) requires a social method.

> Catching cheats (if the tasks were standard) would mostly consist of a
> Google search, agreed that this wouldn't catch all of them though.

We are all cheats if there is no method.

funny enough, I dont care about cheats at all - I have come across
guys who said they were cheating by scraping the code from somewhere
else. so what? as long as they acnowledge it, isnt this what os is
about? 'reuse'?
but still they need to be able to personalise whatever they scrape
elsewhere - and to bend it to fit the spec/requirement

so it is you who are talking about method as the chief means to success;
 

I have come across very good geeks who did not have the faintest idea
about how to work
following even the remotest software engineering practice, and got all
upset when I asked them to  make well sure they tested their work
themselves  before getting me to check it out

on the basis of tests you refuse to write

here you are confusing black box integration tests with the unit tests the programmers should be doing. but even with the most super duper automated unit tests in the world with every bit of programming, if you don't write black box, detailed acceptance tests based on what you really want to happen (including non-functional constraints like response time, etc) then you will fail even with Einstein.
 

I had to to find all the obvious bugs myself very often, cause the
devs felt that their job was to roll out the code, not to test it
(whoa)

What we have here is a breakdown in communication
 

> Perhaps the best route is somewhere in-between standard tasks and
> contributions; some selection on the bug form to include it as a
> 'certification task', and a list of Drupal concepts involved in
> completing it. Then a View where examinees can select tasks to pick-up
> and complete.

again, Liam (I think it is) is unconsciously giving a PERFECT description of the agile approach to software development: take a user story, pick it up, complete it, run the tests all together...

Liam says I am changing the subject, but the whole sweeping the dust under the carpet trying to funnel the stated problem into a certification program (which already exists and is working fine, in terms of transparent community participation, as Greg explains) is an exercise  in futility. You are stating aims, which are reasonable aims, and then you are saying you will be helped by certification. I am saying that the method of development you are using is destined to guarantee a high failure rate. So I find it a fascinating discussion, which affects our daily lives as consultants, and which affects companies hoping to get it done with Drupal.

I am working on a solution though, as people know, so I will advertise it here when I have time to release it.
 

whatever - it would be nice to be left in the cold when we need to
find a developer
and/or not to have to committ to a full time job or a get a bank loan
to set up a drupal website

next best thing would be learn it myself, but that would be even more
risky in my case
:-)

you don't have to learn how to program; you do have to adopt a viable method
 
Thanks a lot for listening,

Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar

what about some basic drupal  development training for non geeks? I ll
take that course

>


--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
_______________________________________________

consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Liam McDermott-2]

Victor Kane wrote:
> I think this is a very interesting and very revealing exchange.
Agreed on that! Thanks Paola for an excellent, and insightful, reply.
I'll certainly be looking at this thread when I get back from family
Christmas. There's certainly a lot to think about in the meantime. :)

Kind Regards,
Liam McDermott.
_______________________________________________
consulting mailing list
consulting@...
http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting

[Paola Di Maio-2]

HI Victor
I am glad that my post gave you the chance to share some interesting
information and links
thanks for that

regarding the waterfall approach, no - there is nothing of a waterfall
in my approach as I describe it below - so that I would say is 'wrong
answer'

my account was somehow cursory and anecdtotal, and you twist the approximation
into your own story!

I work with a variety of approaches, and I dont know where you get
this idea that
i 'fail' (I dont think I ever failed a project!),

 I do however struggle with finding people who grasp what I say on the spot
and prefer to work with those who understand instantly what I mean,
as that saves me time

 luckily every now and then someone turns up with whome communication is
immediate - and these are the people I work well with, although
admittedly only a few

some developers who I have come across dont understand specifications
irrespective of what language I write it in, but I can still work with
them, as long as I can keep an eye on what they are doing...

think also that we are talking 'standard drupal implementation' -
which means we are not inventing anything too new, when I say I need
'advanced search', there are a variety of ways that this can be set
up, and I am happy with either of those, depending on how the team
suggests we do things - this is why I generalise a little sometimes

of course someone with experience will do it well and quickly, and
someone with less experience will take two weeks to work it out and
then when something doesnt work
will say that my developemtn method is not good, and the specification
was not clear etc
(which they should have said before accepting the job, if this was the case)

that leads me to the 'ceertification of the client' provocation of yours
The certification of the client is done upfront: after talking to me
once the developer can simply not accept the job

There are a few other things in your answer  (what you say about
funding, black box testing and a few other bits) that you come up with
that show you are making a few things up,maybe  you  misinterpret what
I said - or perhaps my exposition was unclear

 I also know how much a project takes in terms of people hour -
function point analysis was just an example of a standard method. what
I mean is I can work out pretty precisely how much a job takes for a
developer who knows how to do things, for someone who needs to work
things out, its okay as long as they dont charge me for their learning
curve!

No amount of words would be enough to make things clearer as you
obviously intend to twist
what I say, so but I dont feel the need to discuss these further, the
arguments are of no consequence

for the rest you may also  have some interesting points !
best

pdm


On Dec 22, 2007 6:25 PM, Victor Kane <victorkane@...> wrote:

> I think this is a very interesting and very revealing exchange.
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 9:57 PM, <paola.dimaio@...> wrote:
> > HI Liam
> >
> > I think the skills validation idea may be serious, following whatever
> > approach suggested below is also an option (whatever works for you).
> > If someone could help me determine whether a developer has the best
> > possible skill to do the job, would save me money and time
> > because someone who knows their stuff can solve a problem real quickly,
> >
> >
>
> I do feel that this should be possible in some way.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >   1. Is this roughly the process you use for finding job candidates?
> >
> > Nope- my IT skills are 'high level' (means I do not get anywhere near
> > implementation)
> > so I roughly outline the user functionality and coarse artchitectural
> > layout, then ask
> > around who could do it within my budget could they make of it - then
> > leave the rest to the devs
>
> This is, essentially, the waterfall approach... the approach to software
> development that the US Department of Defense blamed for an 80% failure rate
> in software projects: get all the requirements up front and have at it.
>
> The reason this fails is that the objectives are of a minimum complexity
> such that at least 40% of the requirements will change before the project
> ends.
>
> This has led to the ever widening adoption of iterative and incremental
> approaches, and more recently centering on agile approaches to software
> development: divide the project up into recognizable milestones, build
> frequently, and most importantly, major client involvement in test driven
> development so that the client is responsible for tests which can prove the
> required functionality is present in bite sized chunks, which is different
> "than doing coarse architectural layout and leaving the rest to the devs"
>
>
> > Being drupal developers on average a creative and adventurous bunch, I
> > have gone through an entire range of experiences
> >
>
> With this method, you will fail every time, even with Einstein
>
> >
> > >From well wishers, students, would be coders, geeks from all walks of
> > life,  experienced programmers who want to charge me 60 dollars per
> > hour but cant tell me for sure how long its going to take them to do
> > the job,
>
> They are one hundred per cent right: they are being asked to work with a
> method that is imprecise. And there is no proper feasibility study, vision
> document, function point analysis, or even their equivalent on a coffee bar
> paper napkin. There is no clear presentation of the requirements, nor any
> attempt to do so, nor is there any clear statement of the criteria according
> to which the work is done (test driven development).
>
> It is not that you do an occasional project. You evidently do many projects
> frequently. So you are refusing to make the necessary investment in either a
> functional analyst who can speak to the "devs" (shades of Brave New World)
> or else in an interactive, pro-active participation in the project yourself
> (even though you do suggest such below).
>
> > to people who give me unreasonable time estimates
> > and very few, only very few were capable of delivering the optimal
> > configuration within a time/money constraint: say, do the job within
> > 2-3 days, which is what I calculate based on a rough function point
> > analysis type of estimate
>
> A function point analysis gives just that: points. You have to consider
> human communication (shoved down some kind of formalization funnel) as well
> as the team productivity (high level of confidence and trust based on past
> experience) to get the to 2-3 days.
>
> >
> >
> > I had to wait for 3 years to find someone who could migrate
> > content-wire,com and even then I took a leap.
>
> Right, as I have been suspecting, it is not that you have the occasional
> "brochure" site, your needs have a certain level of complexity. As well as
> the obvious question of whether or not the objectives are socially useful.
>
> > Really good consultants
> > were busy and only considered jobs r 3k up -
>
>
> That would be because really good consultants understand the complexity of
> what they are being asked to do.
>
> So, if the objectives are socially useful, you should be able to raise the
> funds to get the job done, if it is worth doing.
>
> >
> > I had guys quoting me up to 22 thousand euros for the migration
> > (krreeeeeeiiiiks)
> > Friends who offered to do it for free but that could not work within
> > my time frame requirements
>
>
>
> >
> > all sorts.
> >
>
> Yeah, diversity is a bummer.
>
> >
> >  I am lucky to have found a consultant who did the job well enough,
> > but I still have no way of knowing if we have the optimal
> > configuration and if everything is installed properly, just that they
> > did their best, the site is up and good enough, and have been always
> > prompt and professional in their work.
>
> That is because you take it upon yourself to know this, yet have not written
> a single black box acceptance test which was handed to the consultant
> previous to starting work on iterations.
>
> If you can do function point analysis (for those that don't know, it can be
> roughly defined as a very useful, implementation transparent method of
> estimating complexity and hence time and costs upon flows of data and the
> complexity of that data into and out of the system) then you can bloody well
> write black box acceptance tests!!! Including load tests. Then you would
> know. Of course, testing is expensive (either in yours or someone's time or
> else in money), isn't it. Do you figure that in when you come up with your
> 2-3 days estimates?
>
> >
> >
> > Note: I am not talking much new development! Just roll out a decent
> > drupal website with minimal customization and ad hoc config, which
> > should be doable within 6-8 hours of work at the most.
>
> If it were that simple you wouldn't be doing function point analysis. Also,
> there is no one-to-one relationship in any framework between requirements
> and implementation. Given a functional requirement, or feature, there is no
> way of knowing what architectural impact and risk is involved unless a
> (shudder) "dev" tells you first. For free, of course, I suppose.
>
> (anti flame atmosphere note: Paola, I hope you do not take any of these
> critiques personally; it is just sooooo fascinating to see all the "failure"
> signs so clearly spread out, and it does affect the day to day lives of
> consultants)
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >   2. Does it work well?
> > Well - its very time consuming and risky, but I think a more standard
> > process can be evolved from that - maybe as a combination of the
> > proposed approaches
> >
> >
>
> Well, there you are. But not for "certification". Actually, for
> certification of the client! Because, what is going on with this social
> software stuff, is that the client must, must, must participate in the
> development. In order to get a job really done, the one-way vertical
> hierarchical "here's your job, do it" master-slave relationship has to be
> broken, not only because it is unjust, but because it cannot get the job
> done. And for success to be broken, there must be complicity to break down
> the master-slave relationship, even within the limitations of the capitalist
> system. Of course, people do not have to agree with my politics at all, and
> that is a "different subject". But projects fail the more vertical they are,
> and corporations know that. It is just that most of them are powerless (or
> else too powerful: too many people with privileges) to change that, most of
> them spend 22 billion dollars on a proprietary operating system (Vista) only
> for the Financial Times to suggest that no-one install it.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >   3. Would it really help if someone did it for you?
> > Yes! If you provide me a drupal geek validation service, I ll pay you a
> fee
> > to help me select the right geek for the job
>
> You will fail even with Einstein. You, the client must geek it up to get the
> job done. Or else have a friend on your side you can do it for you. Or else
> find the right geek who can get someone to proxy for you.
>
> >
> > Note: the right geek for the job for me is one that can work with me
> > on messenger,
>
> Now here is a glimpse at a possible solution... but it must have method.
>
>
> > charges me a honest fee (say, not more than what I earn
> > per hour/day working as a lecturer)
>
> well, now it is you saying that without socialism we cannot have efficiency,
> without socialism we cannot have anything but anarchy of production and war.
> you may be right. The thing is, part of this whole problem is the way added
> value is "calculated" within the confines of the current crisis of
> capitalism, the huge waves of speculation, the bubbles growing, then
> bursting (geeks washing dishes in San Francisco to pay their mortgages
> 'cause they can't move) ... this objective of yours, for a world in which
> people are qualified to do what they do and in which everyone receives
> decent wages, no-one earns that much more than others.... I agree with you.
>
> But the real problem is, and this is why I even bother posting here at all
> (politics I can discuss in the actual struggle itself) is that we must get a
> method to work involving client geek complicity breaking all the vertical
> wall rules in order to get the job done (see
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-beck/ Working smarter, not
> harder, where there is the great quote "The project had serious problems --
> everything from the contractual arrangement, to exhausted people, to lowered
> voices."). And to get that job done within the confines of the crisis and
> anarchy of capitalist "production" (waves of hysterical speculation, by
> which Web 2.0 is partially fueled).
>
> > and that can set up a website in
> > the fastes possible way, abides to good coding and development
> > practices, and that does not get annoyed when I ask for tweaks and
> > improvements before writing off the task, etc -
> >
> >
>
> certification of the client is the only way to get this done. I always
> invest a huge amount in attempting (and not always succeeding) in training
> my clients as part of the work. Takes longer, but the objective you are
> putting forward there (and it is a laudable one) requires a social method.
>
>
> > Catching cheats (if the tasks were standard) would mostly consist of a
> > Google search, agreed that this wouldn't catch all of them though.
>
> We are all cheats if there is no method.
>
>
> > funny enough, I dont care about cheats at all - I have come across
> > guys who said they were cheating by scraping the code from somewhere
> > else. so what? as long as they acnowledge it, isnt this what os is
> > about? 'reuse'?
> > but still they need to be able to personalise whatever they scrape
> > elsewhere - and to bend it to fit the spec/requirement
>
> so it is you who are talking about method as the chief means to success;
>
> > I have come across very good geeks who did not have the faintest idea
> > about how to work
> > following even the remotest software engineering practice, and got all
> > upset when I asked them to  make well sure they tested their work
> > themselves  before getting me to check it out
>
> on the basis of tests you refuse to write
>
> here you are confusing black box integration tests with the unit tests the
> programmers should be doing. but even with the most super duper automated
> unit tests in the world with every bit of programming, if you don't write
> black box, detailed acceptance tests based on what you really want to happen
> (including non-functional constraints like response time, etc) then you will
> fail even with Einstein.
>
> >
> >
> > I had to to find all the obvious bugs myself very often, cause the
> > devs felt that their job was to roll out the code, not to test it
> > (whoa)
>
> What we have here is a breakdown in communication
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Perhaps the best route is somewhere in-between standard tasks and
> > > contributions; some selection on the bug form to include it as a
> > > 'certification task', and a list of Drupal concepts involved in
> > > completing it. Then a View where examinees can select tasks to pick-up
> > > and complete.
> >
>
> again, Liam (I think it is) is unconsciously giving a PERFECT description of
> the agile approach to software development: take a user story, pick it up,
> complete it, run the tests all together...
>
> Liam says I am changing the subject, but the whole sweeping the dust under
> the carpet trying to funnel the stated problem into a certification program
> (which already exists and is working fine, in terms of transparent community
> participation, as Greg explains) is an exercise  in futility. You are
> stating aims, which are reasonable aims, and then you are saying you will be
> helped by certification. I am saying that the method of development you are
> using is destined to guarantee a high failure rate. So I find it a
> fascinating discussion, which affects our daily lives as consultants, and
> which affects companies hoping to get it done with Drupal.
>
> I am working on a solution though, as people know, so I will advertise it
> here when I have time to release it.
>
> >
> >
> > whatever - it would be nice to be left in the cold when we need to
> > find a developer
> > and/or not to have to committ to a full time job or a get a bank loan
> > to set up a drupal website
> >
> > next best thing would be learn it myself, but that would be even more
> > risky in my case
> > :-)
> >
>
> you don't have to learn how to program; you do have to adopt a viable method
>
> Thanks a lot for listening,
>
>
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
> >
> >
> > what about some basic drupal  development training for non geeks? I ll
> > take that course
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paola Di Maio
> > School of IT
> > www.mfu.ac.th
> > *********************************************
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting@...
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>
>

--
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
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[johnrosswvsu]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This certainly is an illuminating discussion. I have been reading the threads and I am grateful that everyone find this topic valid for a discussion. I will continue reading your informative and insightful replies. Thank you very much!

Very truly yours,
John Ross

[Kieran Lal]

Merry Christmas!

Mark Shuttleworth has an interesting take on community approach to commercial training materials: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/134

It's an interesting approach to how to meet the need for a huge investment in training materials.  Drupal documentation currently has 2400 book pages of CC licensed content.  Steven Peck has already aggregated and distributed a "Getting started" book using some of this material.

Djun Kim has explained on the documentation list how we could extract content from the handbooks into an open format for book publishing.

If you read into the comments, you'll see that Mark is explicitly targeting the LPI certifications.  We learned earlier in this thread those costs were about 400K.  I think collaboration with the documentation team and use of open standards and open licenses is an exciting model for training more people to use Drupal.

Cheers,
Kieran


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[Chris Johnson-21]

Victor,  brilliant!  Those are some great thoughts and perspectives,
and I tend to agree.

Corporations constantly look to coopt anything they can -- it's the
very nature of the beast*.  Your phrase "...squeeze the brainy juice
out of them and start counting their money" was very apropos.  :-)

Thanks for some interesting remarks.

..chris
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[Victor Kane-2]

... and a Happy New Year!

Why Drupal's active community holds the secret to why Drupal quality rocks in a demanding situation, and how consultants can shine along with it.

Yesterday, I had an informal online status meeting with a client, on a site with medium to large demands on Drupal configuration and customization.

Together with the client, we had written black box acceptance tests for the user stories implemented in this iteration.

The client had run the tests the day before, and due to holiday festivities I had been unable to see the results.

The client had spruced up one of the Taxonomy lists before running the tests and so discovered two problems:

* a views bug in which the first taxonomy term was not appearing in a filter
* a pathauto bug, which was producing an error message and breaking a number of pages

The fact that the issue queues on both modules had beaten us to the situation (one in a matter of only days) is only possible due to the fantastic high participation rate of the community itself, the only guarantee for quality, and is the real reason why Drupal rocks.

I was able to find the problems and apply patches in a matter of minutes (less than half an hour for both) just by visiting the issue queue of each module:

fixed http://drupal.org/node/199675 ; and a pathauto bug (include access for pathauto_cleanstring function) was discovered and fixed - http://drupal.org/node/194669

So, maybe include in this costly documentation that is going to be written a case history of how to use the issue queue in a busy community without which no amount of documentation is going to solve anything.

saludos,

Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Dec 25, 2007 10:35 PM, Kieran Lal <kieran@...> wrote:

Merry Christmas!

Mark Shuttleworth has an interesting take on community approach to commercial training materials: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/134

It's an interesting approach to how to meet the need for a huge investment in training materials.  Drupal documentation currently has 2400 book pages of CC licensed content.  Steven Peck has already aggregated and distributed a "Getting started" book using some of this material.

Djun Kim has explained on the documentation list how we could extract content from the handbooks into an open format for book publishing.

If you read into the comments, you'll see that Mark is explicitly targeting the LPI certifications.  We learned earlier in this thread those costs were about 400K.  I think collaboration with the documentation team and use of open standards and open licenses is an exciting model for training more people to use Drupal.

Cheers,
Kieran


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[Paul Resnick]

Can you provide samples of some of the requirements documents you've
been referring to in recent posts (black box acceptance tests, etc.)? Or
a citation to a book, article, or website that describes them in some
detail? I'm teaching a course where students basically do drupal
consulting projects, and something like that could potentially useful in
guiding the students.

(The course site is http://si631w08.cms.si.umich.edu/)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: consulting-bounces@...
> [mailto:consulting-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Victor Kane
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:48 AM
> To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
> Subject: Re: [consulting] Drupal Certification and Requirements
>
> ... and a Happy New Year!
>
> Why Drupal's active community holds the secret to why Drupal quality
> rocks in a demanding situation, and how consultants can shine along
> with it.
>
> Yesterday, I had an informal online status meeting with a client, on a

> site with medium to large demands on Drupal configuration and
> customization.
>
> Together with the client, we had written black box acceptance tests
> for the user stories implemented in this iteration.
>
> The client had run the tests the day before, and due to holiday
> festivities I had been unable to see the results.
>
> The client had spruced up one of the Taxonomy lists before running the

> tests and so discovered two problems:
>
> * a views bug in which the first taxonomy term was not appearing in a
> filter
> * a pathauto bug, which was producing an error message and breaking a
> number of pages
>
> The fact that the issue queues on both modules had beaten us to the
> situation (one in a matter of only days) is only possible due to the
> fantastic high participation rate of the community itself, the only
> guarantee for quality, and is the real reason why Drupal rocks.
>
> I was able to find the problems and apply patches in a matter of
> minutes (less than half an hour for both) just by visiting the issue
> queue of each module:
>
> fixed http://drupal.org/node/199675 ; and a pathauto bug (include
> access for pathauto_cleanstring function) was discovered and fixed -
> http://drupal.org/node/194669
>
> So, maybe include in this costly documentation that is going to be
> written a case history of how to use the issue queue in a busy
> community without which no amount of documentation is going to solve
> anything.
>
> saludos,
>
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2007 10:35 PM, Kieran Lal < kieran@...
> <mailto:kieran@...> > wrote:
>
>
> Merry Christmas!
>
> Mark Shuttleworth has an interesting take on community approach

to
> commercial training materials:
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/134
>
> It's an interesting approach to how to meet the need for a huge
> investment in training materials.  Drupal documentation currently has
> 2400 book pages of CC licensed content.  Steven Peck has already
> aggregated and distributed a "Getting started" book using some of this

> material.
>
> Djun Kim has explained on the documentation list how we could
extract
> content from the handbooks into an open format for book publishing.
>
> If you read into the comments, you'll see that Mark is
explicitly

> targeting the LPI certifications.  We learned earlier in this thread
> those costs were about 400K.  I think collaboration with the
> documentation team and use of open standards and open licenses is an
> exciting model for training more people to use Drupal.
>
> Cheers,
> Kieran
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> <http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Victor Kane-2]

On Jan 2, 2008 1:01 PM, Resnick, Paul <presnick@...> wrote:

Can you provide samples of some of the requirements documents you've
been referring to in recent posts (black box acceptance tests, etc.)? Or
a citation to a book, article, or website that describes them in some
detail? I'm teaching a course where students basically do drupal
consulting projects, and something like that could potentially useful in
guiding the students.

I made the following presentation at DrupalCon Barcelona (give it a second or two to let the s5 presentation module to kick in): http://awebfactory.com.ar/book/export/s5/237

At the end of the presentation, there is an invitation to use an incipient "Project Flow and Tracker", where you can create roles, user stories, tasks and acceptance tests.

Creating these content types explains pretty much all the options, but there is no documentation yet for what is to be published soon as an installation profile distribution thingie (whatever the community is going to call that soon); in the meantime go to http://pftracker.awebfactory.com.ar with

user: drupal, password: rocks,

and play around a bit with that. you can also download the whole thing (see block on sidebar left).

There is a page of links ( http://pftracker.awebfactory.com.ar/userlink/all ) to references that might prove useful to you, especially the book "User Stories Applied ( http://pftracker.awebfactory.com.ar/node/13 ) and a reference to Using Customer Tests to Drive Development ( http://pftracker.awebfactory.com.ar/node/150 )which is a very useful resource to your students.

Please let me know if you need to drill down anywhere, and if you are interested in getting a guided tour of the PFT. (as I say, is going through a lot of changes as a result of important feedback from Barcelona, and in the next 30-60 days will be released as installation profile for the whole community to work on, should anyone be interested).

Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar
 

(The course site is http://si631w08.cms.si.umich.edu/)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: consulting-bounces@...
> [mailto:consulting-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Victor Kane
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:48 AM
> To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers

> Subject: Re: [consulting] Drupal Certification and Requirements
>
> ... and a Happy New Year!
>
> Why Drupal's active community holds the secret to why Drupal quality
> rocks in a demanding situation, and how consultants can shine along
> with it.
>
> Yesterday, I had an informal online status meeting with a client, on a

> site with medium to large demands on Drupal configuration and
> customization.
>
> Together with the client, we had written black box acceptance tests
> for the user stories implemented in this iteration.
>
> The client had run the tests the day before, and due to holiday
> festivities I had been unable to see the results.
>
> The client had spruced up one of the Taxonomy lists before running the

> tests and so discovered two problems:
>
> * a views bug in which the first taxonomy term was not appearing in a
> filter
> * a pathauto bug, which was producing an error message and breaking a
> number of pages
>
> The fact that the issue queues on both modules had beaten us to the
> situation (one in a matter of only days) is only possible due to the
> fantastic high participation rate of the community itself, the only
> guarantee for quality, and is the real reason why Drupal rocks.
>
> I was able to find the problems and apply patches in a matter of
> minutes (less than half an hour for both) just by visiting the issue
> queue of each module:
>
> fixed http://drupal.org/node/199675 ; and a pathauto bug (include
> access for pathauto_cleanstring function) was discovered and fixed -
> http://drupal.org/node/194669
>
> So, maybe include in this costly documentation that is going to be
> written a case history of how to use the issue queue in a busy
> community without which no amount of documentation is going to solve
> anything.
>
> saludos,
>
> Victor Kane

> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2007 10:35 PM, Kieran Lal < kieran@...

> <mailto:kieran@...> > wrote:
>
>
>       Merry Christmas!
>
>       Mark Shuttleworth has an interesting take on community approach
to
> commercial training materials:
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/134
>
>       It's an interesting approach to how to meet the need for a huge
> investment in training materials.  Drupal documentation currently has
> 2400 book pages of CC licensed content.  Steven Peck has already
> aggregated and distributed a "Getting started" book using some of this

> material.
>
>       Djun Kim has explained on the documentation list how we could
extract
> content from the handbooks into an open format for book publishing.
>
>       If you read into the comments, you'll see that Mark is
explicitly

> targeting the LPI certifications.  We learned earlier in this thread
> those costs were about 400K.  I think collaboration with the
> documentation team and use of open standards and open licenses is an
> exciting model for training more people to use Drupal.
>
>       Cheers,
>       Kieran
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       consulting mailing list
>       consulting@...
>       http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> <http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Andrew R. Kelly]

Drupal Themers:

I'm seeking a Drupal themer to take a pre-configured Drupal site and create
a generic demo for our company.  I've got a designer to provide mockups, but
I need someone skilled in applying a professional theme.  Good possibility
of follow on work.

Thx,
Andrew Kelly
CEO
Cognisync LLC
arkelly@...

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[code.select]

Hello

I'm interested in your project and would like too see your mockups
before sending a final bid.
It will be under $300 in any case.

I can show you some sites from my portfolio.

Riki Tiki Tavi



On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Andrew R. Kelly <arkelly@...> wrote:

> Drupal Themers:
>
> I'm seeking a Drupal themer to take a pre-configured Drupal site and create
> a generic demo for our company.  I've got a designer to provide mockups, but
> I need someone skilled in applying a professional theme.  Good possibility
> of follow on work.
>
> Thx,
> Andrew Kelly
> CEO
> Cognisync LLC
> arkelly@...
>
> _______________________________________________
> consulting mailing list
> consulting@...
> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>

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