Drupal Framework / CMS Question

[webmaster-314]

Hello NYPHP,

I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.

I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
category.

I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?

TIA for any comments.

--
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 Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...

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[Kristina Anderson]

> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...

Hi Webmaster,

Yet another huge company has "signed on" with Drupal/PHP5 -- NBC is
underway with a massive program to convert all their websites to
Drupal/PHP.  (I know this because I'm interviewing for a spot on the
team this week!)  If I go into this project, I'm sure in the upcoming
months I'll have PLENTY to say about Drupal's ins and outs...I hated
CodeIgniter with a bloody passion.  CakePHP on the other hand, while I
haven't used the entire framework, has some great code that inspired me
to rewrite and use...

I'm another "ambivalent about frameworks" PHP programmer.  10 years ago
for the web, there were no frameworks for anything, and people were
impressed by simple stuff like a mouseover effect or a pop-out menu or
a website that actually used a database!  Now, there is code already
written for all this stuff -- frameworks as it were -- and that raises
the bar on what we, as programmers, need to produce in order to impress
people.

This is the trend that I've seen in PHP5 overall, in that we are all
writing less "original" code and using more "frameworked" code, so
therefore spending more time analyzing and integrating and less time
writing and playing...but adding on to existing code is a complex task
in and of itself...

Over the years I've spent the bulk of my career mucking around in
already-existing code, and I've fixed enough authentication code that
didn't authenticate, CMS that were designed without an edit mode,
databases that lacked necessary fields, and etc etc to see why
frameworks are a good thing from management's perspective...when their
goal is to squeeze more productive work out of each programmer for the
same amount of money...

When we sign on as programmers, this becomes our fact of life.  Is the
fact that we are using frameworks in PHP5 (and presumably, not writing
one?) an indication that we've "failed" as a programmer?  In my view,
if we are making money and producing quality code in what has to be one
of the most challenging fields around, we're not failures.  

I've long ago resigned myself to the fact that I just have too much
interest in other things in life (like baseball, shopping, sleeping,
reading) to EVER be one of those "super-genius" programmers.  In some
circles, having interests other than programming is viewed with supreme
suspicion...but we are, also, human beings, even if some don't care to
admit this.

The bulk of us do like to be able to make a living and still have time
left over to catch the game or read that book we've been wanting to get
to or spend time with people we care about...if frameworks can help us
do that, are we "failures"?   I think we are too hard on ourselves, and
that makes it easier for management to be hard on us (and make us work
harder for less money), as a result...

Kristina

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[David Krings]

Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I

Then you haven't talked to those who are fluent in assembler, I mean, really
fluent. Many of them think that higher programming languages is just kiddie
stuff you dabble with in high school.

> I'm another "ambivalent about frameworks" PHP programmer.  10 years ago
> for the web, there were no frameworks for anything, and people were
> impressed by simple stuff like a mouseover effect or a pop-out menu or
> a website that actually used a database!  Now, there is code already
> written for all this stuff -- frameworks as it were -- and that raises
> the bar on what we, as programmers, need to produce in order to impress
> people.

I'm im pressed with software (web or other) that works and is consistent. I
currently do a project that involves time calculations and metric measurements
as well as UI portions, all of which were developed by different programmers.
The new code is correct, but all the old code is horribly wrong. The same time
value is calculated differently by each developer and of course it is never
the same. Same for UI, each piece looks and behaves slightly different.
What we need and already decided to do during the next evolution of the
application is to create a framework. Why code something that is already
there? Why invent the wheel twice and wrong both times? It is this detail work
that once done and of good quality replicates this quality into every piece of
code that makes use of the framework.
That said, I looked at Drupal some time ago as framework for a custom CMS /
workflow app and I was impressed. It is really nice work. I eventually
scrapped the project, not because Drupal didn't work out, but because it was
mile high over my head and due to lack of domain knowledge not well designed
from the start. I still had some fun and made great experiences.

There is nothing wrong with using a framework if it is a good, solid framework
of excellent quality. As mentioned above, any bug in the framework will sooner
or later become a bug in your software and then it is your task to deal with
it.....unless you code in .NET and conveniently blame it on Microsoft like all
the other inept .NET developers (about 90% of all .NET developers).

So go ahead, use Drupal, it's nice stuff.

David
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[Mitch Pirtle]

Hey Webmaster,

I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
not.

That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.

I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
to code.

-- Mitch

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster@...> wrote:

> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>

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[Anthony Wlodarski-3]

As a former developer and contributor to the original core of Thrillist.com (built with Drupal 5.x), I can safely say that it is the wrong technology for a lot of websites.  It may be great for what Mitch stated, "community sites" but other than that it is a failure in many respects.  Even with 6.x there are major scalability issues and most of the major modules available have poor contribution support which means when they break you are S.O.L. (but that is with any Open Source software and I won't go on because Drupal gave me a venue to start my career).

My big concern is that these companies consider products like Drupal a "framework" when they are not, especially NBC.  Many of our careers start with different pieces of technology, mine started with Drupal and I have on since then and have been working heavily with CakePHP and I can easily duplicate many of Drupal's modules quite easily within a few hours.  It is all relative to your position at the time, and if you are making money using Drupal, who cares what anyone else says.

Also Mitch, viva la Vi! ;)

-Anthony

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:

Hey Webmaster,

I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
not.

That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.

I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
to code.

-- Mitch

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster@...> wrote:
> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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--
Anthony W.
ant92083@...

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[Damion Hankejh (ingk)]

In practice, Drupal proved far too primitive for a project my company is currently working on in social networking.  The need for customization outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After ~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way, so we have to rewrite this module."  In hindsight, the time spent customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to roll our own features.  Less sophisticated applications may thrive on a Drupal CMS foundation.  This is perhaps one example from which the "failed programmer" cry stems -- in other words, the offending Tweeter might have been suggesting that a capable programmer(s) could do more (perhaps faster) by rolling their own system (although I agree the Tweet is more than a tad dramatic).  Your impression of Drupal may prove different depending on project requirements.  In the end, our team has found it far easier to customize/perfect our own code than to re-tool someone else's code.  I haven't looked at Joomla enough to form an opinion, but I admire some elements of CakePHP -- we have borrowed some ideas from Cake and nothing from Drupal.
---
Damion Hankejh | hankejh.com




On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:

Hey Webmaster,

I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
not.

That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.

I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
to code.

-- Mitch

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster@...> wrote:
> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

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[Kristina Anderson]

A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)

And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...

David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not
being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used
to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  Hmm...  

That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market is,
and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the
market goeth...there goeth I.

That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they
started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)

- Kristina

>
> As a former developer and contributor to the original core of
Thrillist.com
> (built with Drupal 5.x), I can safely say that it is the wrong
technology
> for a lot of websites.  It may be great for what Mitch
stated, "community
> sites" but other than that it is a failure in many respects.  Even
with 6.x
> there are major scalability issues and most of the major modules
available
> have poor contribution support which means when they break you are
S.O.L.
> (but that is with any Open Source software and I won't go on because
Drupal
> gave me a venue to start my career).
>
> My big concern is that these companies consider products like Drupal a
> "framework" when they are not, especially NBC.  Many of our careers
start
> with different pieces of technology, mine started with Drupal and I
have on
> since then and have been working heavily with CakePHP and I can easily
> duplicate many of Drupal's modules quite easily within a few hours.  
It is
> all relative to your position at the time, and if you are making
money using
> Drupal, who cares what anyone else says.
>
> Also Mitch, viva la Vi! ;)
>
> -Anthony
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...>
wrote:
>
> > Hey Webmaster,
> >
> > I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
> > complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
> > not.
> >
> > That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers
are
> > taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites.
A
> > strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really
shines.
> >
> > I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter,
er,
> > Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-
emacs,
> > linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
> > current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
> > maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and
like
> > to code.
> >
> > -- Mitch
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster@...> wrote:
> > > Hello NYPHP,
> > >
> > > I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a
look
> > > at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
> > >
> > > I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said
that
> > > DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From
what I
> > > can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> > > care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend
huge
> > > amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch,
i.e.
> > > user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this
makes
> > > for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer
and
> > > if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like
CAKE or
> > > equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> > > category.
> > >
> > > I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> > > really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see
the
> > > correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I
missing?

> > >
> > > TIA for any comments.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > >  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster@...
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > >
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Anthony W.
> ant92083@...
>
>

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[Tedd-3]

At 7:40 AM -0700 10/9/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:

>A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)
>
>And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...
>
>David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not
>being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used
>to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  Hmm...
>
>That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market is,
>and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the
>market goeth...there goeth I.
>
>That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they
>started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)
>
>- Kristina

As always, good advice.

Cheers,

tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
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[Kristina Anderson]

> At 7:40 AM -0700 10/9/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)
> >
> >And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...
> >
> >David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not
> >being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used
> >to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  
Hmm...
> >
> >That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market
is,

> >and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the
> >market goeth...there goeth I.
> >
> >That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they
> >started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)
> >
> >- Kristina
>
> As always, good advice.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
>
>

Tedd --

Thanks!  Now I just have to keep hacking away so that someday, my
programming will be as good as my advice! :)

Seriously, I'm curious now as to how well they are doing with the
Drupal codebase -- NBC has a TON of sites, but a lot of them don't have
much functionality to speak of, just fancy graphics.  They want a
minimum 12-month commitment so it's clear they're not expecting any
overnight miracles...

Kristina

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[Ajai Khattri]

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Damion Hankejh wrote:

> The need for customization
> outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After
> ~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we
> scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty
> code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way,
> so we have to rewrite this module."  In hindsight, the time spent
> customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to
> roll our own features.

This mirrors my own experience using content systems to build web sites,
and why I moved on to frameworks. At some point there are just too
many integration points where it becomes more costly to modify and
maintain than building with a solid framework. Drupal is not really a
framework and wasn't designed to be, but ome people have molded
(twisted?) it to do more.



--
Aj.

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[Mitch Pirtle]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Damion Hankejh wrote:
>
>> The need for customization
>> outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After
>> ~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we
>> scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty
>> code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way,
>> so we have to rewrite this module."  In hindsight, the time spent
>> customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to
>> roll our own features.
>
> This mirrors my own experience using content systems to build web sites,
> and why I moved on to frameworks. At some point there are just too
> many integration points where it becomes more costly to modify and
> maintain than building with a solid framework. Drupal is not really a
> framework and wasn't designed to be, but ome people have molded
> (twisted?) it to do more.

I was in a similar situation at MTV - and opted to go with the Joomla
framework (and NOT the CMS) for this exact reason. A CMS has to be a
one-size-fits-all proposition in order to be useful to a wide
audience, and that makes bloat and inflexibility an unfortunate
passenger.

I used the Joomla framework much in a way one would use CodeIgniter,
Zend or Kohana - I built exactly what was needed, and nothing more. No
timezone support, no dynamic navigation, no multibyte characters, etc.
That is the only way you can make scalable websites, and I think that
is the main reason the stack/scaffold frameworks like RoR, Symfony and
Cake get such a bad rap for scale.

Until Drupal truly makes a framework under their CMS, they will have
the same problems - something I discussed with some core contributors
several years ago. I hope that is the route they take, as that
provides many additional benefits as well.

-- Mitch
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[Steve Manes]

webmaster@... wrote:
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module
if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.
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[Mitch Pirtle]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Steve Manes <smanes@...> wrote:
> webmaster@... wrote:
>>
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.
>
> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module if
> he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.

Beating a dead horse here, but just came up with a pretty good
response to the tweet in question:

"Can you build a fully functional website with admin interface in less
than 600 seconds? My failed programmer can."

-- Mitch, with a big grin
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[webmaster-314]

Hello Steve,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:38:36 AM, you wrote:

> webmaster@... wrote:
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module
> if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.
> _______________________________________________
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Actually, that was my exact reaction when I read the comment. Thanks
for all the replies to my post, I appreciate them all though I am
still a little confused about how joomla was described as a framework
and drupal as not?

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[webmaster-314]

Hello Mitch,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 10:08:11 AM, you wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Steve Manes <smanes@...> wrote:
>> webmaster@... wrote:
>>>
>>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.
>>
>> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module if
>> he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.

> Beating a dead horse here, but just came up with a pretty good
> response to the tweet in question:

> "Can you build a fully functional website with admin interface in less
> than 600 seconds? My failed programmer can."

> -- Mitch, with a big grin
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4498 (20091011) __________

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

> http://www.eset.com




HA! very good response, thanks.

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[webmaster-314]

Hello Steve,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:38:36 AM, you wrote:

> webmaster@... wrote:
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module
> if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4498 (20091011) __________

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

> http://www.eset.com




I do a most PHP module work on existing platforms that are not always
coded using best practices and it can be pretty challenging sometimes
to "get it right" when you are working in a junkyard, not of your own
making,  LOL.  Compared to some of that stuff, Drupal looks like a
dream come true.

--
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[Mitch Pirtle]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:38 PM,  <webmaster@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, that was my exact reaction when I read the comment. Thanks
> for all the replies to my post, I appreciate them all though I am
> still a little confused about how joomla was described as a framework
> and drupal as not?

The Joomla project is actually splitting out the framework for
separate distribution as many folks don't realize that the standard
Joomla 1.5 download actually contains:

* Joomla framework
* Joomla installation app (uses framework)
* Joomla front end app (uses framework)
* Joomla back end app (uses framework)

This is a big difference from a developer perspective, as I can
completely disregard CMS features by just using the framework, which
is a glue framework akin to Zend, Kohana, CodeIgniter et al.

Drupal however, is one application. I don't think there is a framework
under the hood that was used to create the Drupal CMS. This is not a
slight to Drupal though - in fact I usually recommend folks go with a
full CMS like Drupal or Joomla, as framework developed apps need a
developer to maintain, and full CMS stacks can be updated without
writing code (in a perfect world, at least).

Maybe I'm just being pedantic, as to me "framework" != "content
management system". What do you folks think?

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework

-- Mitch
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[Ajai Khattri]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> The Joomla project is actually splitting out the framework for
> separate distribution

"Is" meaning in the future but not right now?

> as many folks don't realize that the standard
> Joomla 1.5 download actually contains:
>
> * Joomla framework
> * Joomla installation app (uses framework)
> * Joomla front end app (uses framework)
> * Joomla back end app (uses framework)

Of course, it is the source of much confusion. Your 'insider' knowledge of
Joomla means its probably clear to you which parts are the framework and
which are not. Unfortunately its not clear to us. Is there a framework
site? Are there any definitive docs? Any tutorials? To *me*, the Jommla
docs have always been rather lacking.



--
Aj.

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[Adrian Noland-2]

Says it better than I can:
http://robozen.com/technology/drupal-sucks/

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:12 PM, <webmaster@...> wrote:

Hello NYPHP,

I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.


I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?

TIA for any comments.

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[justin-50]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Adrian Noland <anoland@...> wrote:
> Says it better than I can:
> http://robozen.com/technology/drupal-sucks/
>

From Trever Twining, in the comments of that very same post:

"The author is entitled to his opinion, but it is seriously
misinformed. In haste he’s drawn up a huge variety of assumptions
about Drupal and its operation that could easily be put to rest with a
little bit of time with the system and it’s fantastic community of
developers and other professionals working with it every day.

"I think it’s equal to argue that you can do anything useful with
Rails without downloading additional code to assist, whether it’s more
gems, code snippets, and other things. Try doing anything but the 10
minute blog tutorial without knowing anything about Rails and see how
productive you are. At the end of that exercise, someone who hasn’t
spent the time to learn the framework could very well argue that Rails
sucks. But that would be an equally ill-formed opinion.

"My point is that these frameworks help with productivity because you
invest the time to become familiar with them. Such a framework will
always have shortcomings and bugaboos. The truth is tens of thousands
of people are doing incredible things with Drupal every day, both as a
framework and a CMS, and have found the ways around the things you
list as limitations."


--
justin
http://justinhileman.com
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