Extent of share alike?

[David Vaarwerk]

Hello,

I have made a map and business guide from scratch that you can see here http://www.mineraldata.com.au/wp/index.html. I would like to share the map data with OSM and use OSM as a base map for this and other maps/ business guides - I assume there is no problem with this as long as I attribute the work.

However, my question is, how far does the share alike section of the Creative Commons licence go. I want to share the map data with OSM but not the other sections of the work.

Will the Creative Commons licence mean that the business guide section of the work fall under the Creative Commons licence. The business guide essentially is business addresses, industry, service, phone no, website etc and the location of the business.

I will most likely add cafe's, public phones, post boxes and hotels to OSM but I don't want the entire business guide to become Creative Commons (not at the moment anyway).

Is someone able to clarify this? Can I just share the map data?

Thanks

David

--

David Vaarwerk
Manager
Mineral Data
Services
www.mineraldata.com.au

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[Matt Amos-3]

On 11/2/09, David Vaarwerk <david@...> wrote:
> I have made a map and business guide from scratch that you can
> see here http://www.mineraldata.com.au/wp/index.html [1]. I would like to
> share the map data with OSM and use OSM as a base map for this and other
> maps/ business guides - I assume there is no problem with this as long as I
> attribute the work.

wow. that looks awesome!

> However, my question is, how far does the share alike
> section of the Creative Commons licence go. I want to share the map data
> with OSM but not the other sections of the work.

this lack of clarity is one of the problems with the CC BY-SA license.
the short answer is: i'm not sure. the longer answer is: the image you
render to the screen must be CC BY-SA licensed, and therefore allow
people to do all the things they can do with a CC BY-SA work. but you
may have other rights in your data depending on your jurisdiction.
whether you can use these to prevent sharing of the business directory
is a question for a Real Lawyer.

> Is someone able to clarify this? Can
> I just share the map data?

actually, you don't have to share the map data. CC BY-SA considers
only the published work, which in your case is the image that the
flash app renders to the screen. only that work needs to be CC BY-SA,
although we obviously welcome sharing more!

for a (maybe) definitive answer, you might want to contact a lawyer.
it's a hassle, but they're the only people who can give you real legal
advice.

cheers,

matt

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[Frederik Ramm]

Hallo,

Matt Amos wrote:
>> However, my question is, how far does the share alike
>> section of the Creative Commons licence go. I want to share the map data
>> with OSM but not the other sections of the work.
>
> this lack of clarity is one of the problems with the CC BY-SA license.
> the short answer is: i'm not sure. the longer answer is: the image you
> render to the screen must be CC BY-SA licensed,

... not so fast! We generally say that:

* if you produce an image that contains OSM and other data, then deliver
this image to the client computer, then the whole image is CC-BY-SA.

but

* if you produce two different images, one with OSM and one with other
data, and the two are overlaid on the client computer (by software
acting on behalf of the user), then your second image can be licensed
whatever you want. Only if the user (who is considered to have created a
derived product by asking software running on his computer to take two
images and merge them) then further publishes the image - which you may
or may not allow as the image contains your data! - would the image have
to be made CC-BY-SA.

Otherwise it would not be possible to e.g. overlay OSM data and CGIAR
"noncommercial use only" hill shading in an OpenLayers application.

Bye
Frederik

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[Matt Amos-3]

On 11/2/09, Frederik Ramm <frederik@...> wrote:

> Hallo,
>
> Matt Amos wrote:
>>> However, my question is, how far does the share alike
>>> section of the Creative Commons licence go. I want to share the map data
>>> with OSM but not the other sections of the work.
>>
>> this lack of clarity is one of the problems with the CC BY-SA license.
>> the short answer is: i'm not sure. the longer answer is: the image you
>> render to the screen must be CC BY-SA licensed,

the even longer answer is... ;-)

> ... not so fast! We generally say that:
>
> * if you produce an image that contains OSM and other data, then deliver
> this image to the client computer, then the whole image is CC-BY-SA.
>
> but
>
> * if you produce two different images, one with OSM and one with other
> data, and the two are overlaid on the client computer (by software
> acting on behalf of the user), then your second image can be licensed
> whatever you want. Only if the user (who is considered to have created a
> derived product by asking software running on his computer to take two
> images and merge them) then further publishes the image - which you may
> or may not allow as the image contains your data! - would the image have
> to be made CC-BY-SA.

does that mean that no-one can redistribute a screenshot of the
application? the CC BY-SA portion would imply that the screenshot
would be CC BY-SA, but the license on the "other layer" of the image
wouldn't allow that.

> Otherwise it would not be possible to e.g. overlay OSM data and CGIAR
> "noncommercial use only" hill shading in an OpenLayers application.

indeed. for what it's worth i think that overlaying data onto CC BY-SA
data/tiles is fine. but i'm not so sure about it that i'd make
something on that basis without retaining a lawyer!

cheers,

matt

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[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Matt Amos wrote:
> does that mean that no-one can redistribute a screenshot of the
> application?

Yes, that's my reading, unless you invoke some superior right to "fair
use" or "citation" or whatever applicable in your country; which would
of course make any copyright discussion obsolete. - I regularly use
screenshots from proprietary web sites in my talks and I believe I have
the right to do so without even looking at their license, but I am not
100% sure that this is within the law.

> the CC BY-SA portion would imply that the screenshot
> would be CC BY-SA, but the license on the "other layer" of the image
> wouldn't allow that.

Correct. I think that CC-BY-SA creates an incentive for the secretive
data provider to, instead of combining his own data and CC-BY-SA data
server-side and delivering it to the customer, furnish the customer with
a bit of software and feed him CC-BY-SA and proprietary data through
separate channels. That way, the data is combined on the users'
computer, leaving him user with a dead-end undistributable (but usable!)
lump of data.

Surely a win for Freedom!

Bye
Frederik

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[Matt Amos-3]

On 11/2/09, Frederik Ramm <frederik@...> wrote:

> Matt Amos wrote:
>> the CC BY-SA portion would imply that the screenshot
>> would be CC BY-SA, but the license on the "other layer" of the image
>> wouldn't allow that.
>
> Correct. I think that CC-BY-SA creates an incentive for the secretive
> data provider to, instead of combining his own data and CC-BY-SA data
> server-side and delivering it to the customer, furnish the customer with
> a bit of software and feed him CC-BY-SA and proprietary data through
> separate channels. That way, the data is combined on the users'
> computer, leaving him user with a dead-end undistributable (but usable!)
> lump of data.

isn't that a bug in any "share-alike" license which uses
redistribution as the trigger?

all this complexity - it's enough to make someone want to PD everything ;-)

cheers,

matt

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[Iván Sánchez Ortega-3]

El Lunes, 2 de Noviembre de 2009, David Vaarwerk escribió:
> However, my question is, how far does the share alike
> section of the Creative Commons licence go. I want to share the map data
> with OSM but not the other sections of the work.

Then you double-license the map data: one version goes OSM under CC-by-sa or
ODbL, the other version goes (c) into your guide. Share-alike does *not*
apply to your work, only to one distribution of your work.


Problems may arise only when you use already existing OSM data in your guide.
In this case, the share-alike component of either CC-by-sa or ODbL would
apply to the data set it is being put into. Most likely, you would have to
share alike all your geographical data. Both CC-by-sa and ODbL don't apply to
collections, so you don't have to share alike any databases that are separate
from the one containing OSM data.


Hope that helps,
--
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http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
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[David Vaarwerk]

Thanks for your all the responses, they do help.

I think keeping the map and the business data separate with a double
license is the best solution as suggested.

So I will have a map with only OSM data, obviously anything I put in will
become
CC. I am happy to share the geographic location (lat. long.) of all
businesses
if OSM wants or can take this info (the obvious problem is space on the
map
and that businesses are constantly moving - updating becomes an issue).

To keep things separate on another web page within the site I will serve
from a
separate database business information (phone number, website, service
etc)
that will have no geographic location information in it. The only overlap
will be a business name. As far as I can see OSM doesn't record the street
address
of cafe's etc only their location.

Thanks

David Vaarwerk

--
David Vaarwerk
Manager
Mineral Data
Services
www.mineraldata.com.au
email: david@...
mobile: [phone]

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[Matt Amos-3]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 5:48 AM, David Vaarwerk <david@...> wrote:

> Thanks for your all the responses, they do help.
>
> I think keeping the map and the business data separate with a double
> license is the best solution as suggested.
>
> So I will have a map with only OSM data, obviously anything I put in will
> become
> CC. I am happy to share the geographic location (lat. long.) of all
> businesses
> if OSM wants or can take this info (the obvious problem is space on the
> map
> and that businesses are constantly moving - updating becomes an issue).
>
> To keep things separate on another web page within the site I will serve
> from a
> separate database business information (phone number, website, service
> etc)
> that will have no geographic location information in it. The only overlap
> will be a business name. As far as I can see OSM doesn't record the street
> address
> of cafe's etc only their location.

street addresses of any feature can be recorded in OSM. see the
karlsruhe schema [1] for more information and [2] for an example of it
in use.

cheers,

matt

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema
[2] http://osm.org/go/euutR1zjR--

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[David Vaarwerk]

> street addresses of any feature can be recorded in OSM. see the
> karlsruhe schema [1] for more information and [2] for an example of it
> in use.
>
> cheers,
>
> matt
>
> [1]
>

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema
> [2] http://osm.org/go/euutR1zjR--


That's excellent! Thanks for pointing that out. I also now see that
various types of shops can be recorded in OSM --more than I initially
realised....in the end it may be easier and of mutual benefit to open all
my data. It's only a small amount of data in the scheme of things.

David Vaarwerk

 
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[David Vaarwerk]

Hello again,
Just thought I'd round this thread by saying thanks and that I have
released the entire West Perth Business Map under the CC-by-sa license as
today. There is also a short statement on my website under the news section
if anyone is interested.
--
David Vaarwerk
Manager
Mineral Data
Services
www.mineraldata.com.au

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