FW: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

[Andrew Bertsch]

Vic ~

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the List.  Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?

 

Many thanks,

Andy

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: 'vic5491@...'
Cc: VFR Mailing List (vfr@...)
Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

Hey Vic ~

 

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few questions and observations.

 

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long rides?), extra equipment drain, etc.  The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not riding).  I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe, then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005.  The WestCo (also constantly B-T maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

 

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall).  If so, I think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly from mine.  At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.  Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

 

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was younger and lax on maintenance).  I'm not opposed to the idea of spending $60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's just not necessary.

 

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging system?

 

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid. Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having. Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years. He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going forward..."

Andy

 

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

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Andrew, as I mentioned before, the person who is in charge of technical training for Honda MC said that failed batteries are the most frequent cause of electrical problems and RR failures on VFRs.  He recommended putting in a new Yuasa battery every two years even if everything seems fine.  I ignored this and went almost 3 years and suffered the consequences.  Whatever the cause of the battery failure, the battery failure created a situation that "appeared" to be a RR or stator failure and had it not been for one lister's sage advice, my trip would have been compromised.  He said that he had had a similar situation and a new battery solved his problems.  In spite of the fact that my battery tested "good" I replaced the battery and my problems went away.  I have never had battery failures like this before either.  The bike's first battery was changed out preventatively 3 years ago and yet the second battery failed in less than three years.  I suspect something was loose in the battery since the problem was intermittant.  I do not see this as an issue of whether the battery was kept on a battery tender or not (I have one and use it sometimes but not always).  I typically ride 50 - 250 miles whenever I take the bike out but sometimes I take a shorter and much longer rides.

As one lister mentioned, our VMs are not highly precise instruments and the differences you mention in your point #2 may well have more to do with the instrument than anything else.  I intend to check my voltages with a more precise instrument when I get a chance but, as you can imagine, after having been gone for over a month, other more pressing issues are demanding my attention now. 

 

One of the other local listers has a Master's Degree in EE from a very well respected engineering school and he has offered to help me go through the whole system at some point.  Once we do, a write up will be forthcoming.  I suspect that will be in the late fall or early next year.  My bike has performed flawlessly since I put the new Wal-Mart battery in it and I think the whole problem I experienced can be traced to a failing battery.

 

Regards,

Vic
Andrew Bertsch <abertsch1@...> wrote:

Vic ~

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the List.  Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?

 

Many thanks,

Andy

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: 'vic5491@...'
Cc: VFR Mailing List (vfr@...)
Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

Hey Vic ~

 

I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few questions and observations.

 

1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long rides?), extra equipment drain, etc.  The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not riding).  I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe, then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005.  The WestCo (also constantly B-T maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.

 

2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall).  If so, I think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly from mine.  At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.  Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).

 

3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was younger and lax on maintenance).  I'm not opposed to the idea of spending $60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's just not necessary.

 

Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging system?

 

"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid. Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having. Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years. He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going forward..."

Andy

 

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

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[rogerbc]

Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery charging inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @ 5000 revs as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops below 12 and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev increase. If I turn it off and restart all  is OK and then the charging gremlin re-emerges again for some reason not allowing a higher charging voltage than 11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have kept the rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while running as suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due to overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc

Andrew Bertsch wrote:

Vic ~
 
Sorry to bring this up again, but I think it's important to share with the
List.  Now that you're back home, could you please answer my questions for
the benefit of charging system-concerned members of the List?
 
Many thanks,
Andy
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
[e-mail]
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: '[e-mail]'
Cc: VFR Mailing List ([e-mail])
Subject: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...


Hey Vic ~
 
I've been following your charging/battery adventure, and have a few
questions and observations.
 
1) What care did your Yuasa receive during its 2+ year life?...maintenance
habits (Battery Tender or other), number of miles (mostly short or long
rides?), extra equipment drain, etc.  The OEM Yuasa on my '99 was still
going strong after more than 5 years (always on a Battery Tender when not
riding).  I replaced it with a WestCo AGM in November 2004 just to be safe,
then replaced a failed R/R in January 2005.  The WestCo (also constantly B-T
maintained) is still charging perfectly after 2.5 years.
 
2) IIRC, your VFR is a 5th generation ('98 or '99 as I recall).  If so, I
think your reported charging rates are suspect, as they differ significantly
from mine.  At idle, I generally see 14-14.2 volts; and at speed 13.6-13.8.
Only when the bike sits idle without the B-T for awhile does the voltage
ever drop below 13 (and then only to 12.8 or 12.9).
 
3) I'm now 59 years of age, have owned and ridden motorcycles since I was
16, and I've never had a battery last less than 4 years (even when I was
younger and lax on maintenance).  I'm not opposed to the idea of spending
$60 or so every two years, but my 40+ years of experience suggests that it's
just not necessary.
 
Are you sure there isn't still something awry with your Viffer's charging
system?
 
"Just another update for all of you who jumped in and tried to help me when
the electrical demons threatened my trip. I now have two days of running
behind me since I put in the battery and everything is still rock solid.
Most of the time it is charging between 13.1 & 13.3 but occasionally drops
down to 12.9. I have seen 12.8 only once and nothing below that.

While my Yuasa was only 2 years old and both seemed and tested perfect, it
was not and was the source of all the charging system problems I was having.
Several years ago the head of technical training for Honda MC told a mutual
friend to tell me that I should put in a new Yuasa battery every two years.
He said bad batteries are the main cause of problems with VFR electrical
systems. I guess I should have followed his direction to the letter but
didn't. I was only a few month over 2 years and figured he was exaggerating
the point. I think I will follow his recommendation to the T going
forward..."

Andy
 
Andrew Bertsch
'99VFR800FI/Sargent
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Sidney, Ohio
[e-mail]
 

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[Andrew Bertsch]

Hello Roger ~

It would help to have a bit more info re: your charging problem - i.e. 1) How many miles are on your '99?  2) When/at what mileage did the charging problem first begin to show its ugly face? 3) What conditions do you generally ride in (wet, hot, etc.)? 4) Is your VFR garaged? 5) Are you running the original R/R?

In advance of your answers to those questions, my suspicions include: 1) A failing R/R (test per the flow-chart at Electrosport.com) 2) A bad/dirty connection (check/clean all connections/grounds between the R/R, stator & battery). 3) Bad stator (least likely unless your Viffer has lots of miles on the clock).

Let me (and the List) know what you find.

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery charging inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @ 5000 revs as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops below 12 and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev increase. If I turn it off and restart all is OK and then the charging gremlin re-emerges again for some reason not allowing a higher charging voltage than 11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have kept the rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while running as suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due to overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc

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[Andrew Bertsch]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Roger ~

 

Your symptoms suggest rather clearly that you have a failed Regulator/Rectifier.  Still, you should do the test (re: Electrosport.com) to be sure. Honda introduced a new/improved R/R for your '99 VFR, and the failure ratio has been much improved.  Google to find best price, but Ridenow, Service Honda, Ron Ayers, et al are among the best.  The new/improved R/R part number is 31600-MBG-305.

 

Andy

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Mitchell [mailto:rsmitch@...]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 4:51 PM
To: 'Andrew Bertsch'
Subject: RE: FW: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

Thanks for the reply Andrew. The answers to your questions are as follows:

1)   Mileage is  20,000 kms (12,500 miles)

2)    It started last fall with the clock suddenly zeroing out at the end of the season ride – a cool day- almost too cool to ride, which usually occurs here in South East BC around mid October. I was unable to start without jumping from a spare isolated battery. Since then, the clock has mysteriously zeroed out for no reason and usually has been associated with starting problems (although occasionally it has started in- spite of the clock’s aberrant behavior).  I must admit I do not understand why a low voltage would wipe out the clock given its small amp draw.

3)   I charged the battery off and on all winter and once again the starting problem happened on the first ride of the year (a 400km ride). The later part of the ride was through a brief rainstorm. At the end of the ride, after gassing up, it failed to start. I did not have a voltmeter with me. Friends push started me. I replaced the battery with a new one, which read 12.8 volts upon installation, and all was well for another 200kms of bopping in and out of town. I thought the problem was solved.

4)   Most recently on a hot day +35C I parked it briefly in the sun while shopping, (after 20 minute ride to town), and then it would not start. A rescue friend arrived with Voltmeter and it read 10+ volts. Once again, passive jump from a car battery and all was OK

5)   Summers here are in mid 30’s and usually dry. It is in my basement garage shop for the winter which is above freezing and dry

6)   I have the original RR, as mentioned the charging values at 1200 rpm idle, and 5000 rpms are between 12.6 and 13.8 and then appear to crap out intermittently. The cooling fan was on as it was in the sun when tested yesterday, which probably takes some of the charging volts but given the resting charge of the battery was 12.1. I would assume that the RR should have kicked in and started charging to keep the battery between 12.4 and 12.6 once the motorcycle was going

 

I will take your advice, follow all the wires, and check connections. The VFR manual sucks when it came to describing actual RR out puts etc so will check your suggested link. Thanks again for your interest Andrew it is much appreciated, cheers Roger Mitchell

 

Roger & Sharon Mitchell

Cranbrook BC Canada

Ph: [phone]

Fax: [phone]

Email: rsmitch@...

---

From: Andrew Bertsch [mailto:abertsch1@...]
Sent: July 16, 2007 1:01 PM
To: rsmitch@...
Cc: VFR Mailing List
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Help needed / Wires, Connectors and Grounds...

 

Hello Roger ~

It would help to have a bit more info re: your charging problem - i.e. 1) How many miles are on your '99?  2) When/at what mileage did the charging problem first begin to show its ugly face? 3) What conditions do you generally ride in (wet, hot, etc.)? 4) Is your VFR garaged? 5) Are you running the original R/R?

In advance of your answers to those questions, my suspicions include: 1) A failing R/R (test per the flow-chart at Electrosport.com) 2) A bad/dirty connection (check/clean all connections/grounds between the R/R, stator & battery). 3) Bad stator (least likely unless your Viffer has lots of miles on the clock).

Let me (and the List) know what you find.

Andrew Bertsch

'99VFR800FI/Sargent

Cogito Ergo Zoom

Sidney, Ohio

abertsch1@...

 

Dear Andrew, I have a 99 VFR with chronicly intermittent low battery charging inspite of replacement battery. At idle it charges at 12.8 and @ 5000 revs as high as 13.8 however if one backs off the revs it often drops below 12 and will not reestablish a higher charge rate in spite of rev increase. If I turn it off and restart all is OK and then the charging gremlin re-emerges again for some reason not allowing a higher charging voltage than 11.86-which suggests no charging is happening at all ( I have kept the rectifyer cool with computer fan blowing accross the fins while running as suggested by the british who were having rectifyer failures due to overheating) any ideas of where to go at this point? thanks Rogerbc

 

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[Mrydr]

Electrex / Electrosport Fault Chart is here:

 

http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html

 

Note the first paragraph of the opening page introduction:

 

"ElectroSport Fault Finding

Any well working charging system on a modern bike will produce a voltage over the battery terminals in between 13.5 Vdc and 14.5 Vdc, over the entire rev range. When you suspect a fault in the system, this is the first thing to check.

When you find that there is a problem, keep in mind that the number 1 problem with any charging system are bad connections.

Suspect any connection in the entire system. It's advisable to take off all fairing parts, the fuel tank and seat, and just disconnect all connectors you can find. Do these one at a time, and spray them with a contact cleaner before fitting the connector again. On the widely used bullet connectors, the ones used on many Japanese bikes for connecting single wires to each other, you should see if the male bullet connector needs a firm push when it slides into the female one. If not, use a pair of pliers to make the fit tighter in the female connector."

Trace all of the wires in the charging circuit, break, lube/clean/deoxit all connectors and GROUNDS.  Check around the main fuse box and quick connections buried under the seat near the battery box.

 

Velcro a portable VOM to the gas tank with leads going to the battery and watch your readings and let us know what you get.

 

There is a possibility with solid wiring and good positive connections you may not need a R/R or stator replacement.

 

Good luck.

 

Fred in CT w/ Ver. 96 BTDT w/ the charging system......

 

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