First Impressions.

[SGBotsford]

This is a log of my experience with knoda.  I hope it will help see
what a new person to this software sees, and that people looking at
this can use this to improve both the software and the documentation.

My background:  I have used linux for about 15 years, and have spend
much of my working life as a computer geek.  I have never been a
database administrator.  I have a hobby tree farm and it is now
getting to the point where spreadsheets no longer work to keep track
of what I've got, and which trees were planted when, and just where
are the dogwoods, and how many Japanese fantail willow do I have?

I figure if I stumble over something, then it's probably worth a look.

Turns out that knoda is not available as a binary package.  I brought
down the tarballs, hk_classes built without even a warning as far as I
could see.  Knoda fussed a bit about linking against a module.

In the first ten minutes I was able to create a pair of tables, Names
for scientific and common names of my trees, and Trees which has thier
height, location.  The idea is to link these across so that I can
enter an abbreviation once, and the rest fills in.

(In passing:  I was not able to get this far at all with rekall
(rekall has serious issues with python 2.5+)  kexi doesn't do reports,
and glom wants to use a different port on postgres, and I don't want
to change my postgres to suit it.)

Connecting to postgresql was a snap, but I already had this working for rekall.

Generating the two tables was easy.

Form work is (so far) a bit confusing.  The tutorial doesn't explain
the function of Id, of Identifier, of the (number) after the
datasource, and that of Label for lineedit field.  My assumption is
that forms are stored as hidden tables, that the Id is an identifier
of this element in the database, that the (number) in an index into a
list of tables in this database.  Haven't figured out a plausible
explanation for Identifier yet, nor why the data field has a label
that can be separate from the textlabel.

Some of this will doubtless come clear as I continue to work through
the tutorial, but it's clear as mud in the chapter on forms.

My expectation:  The first time a panel is referenced, there is either
a mention, or a link to an explanation of each item on that page.  The
explanation should state *what* it is, *when* I (as a user) would need
to know about it, and a pointer to further examples.  E.g.  "Editlines
have a label, which for now you can ignore.  This later will allow us
to automate the form makeing process, and remove the need for having a
separate TextLabel."

As a wish along those lines, right now to add a field for a form I have to:
1.  Select edit line.
2.  click about where I want it.
3.  adjust position.
4.  adjust size.
5. pick a label (default to field name)
6. select TextLabel
7. clcik about where I want it.
8. type it's name in the Label field.  (Why does a text label have a tool tip?)

For a lot of things, it may be easier to have a "quick form" with is a
column of field names, and a column of editlines.  This allows quick
prototyping of a form, allows the user to enter a bunch of typical
data, and find out all the places where the editlines are too small.
>From this form, then, it can be re-arranged for better use later.

This brings a more general notion.  It should be very quick to do
something the easy way.   That easy way can then be refined.

So far so good.  I'm very impressed with what I can do so far.  It
works, it's doesn't require that I learn SQL (yet...)  I haven't made
it crash yet.  All are points in it's favour.

As I continue with my discoveries, I'll post to the list.



--
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548

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[robert leleu]

Your analysis of Rekall, Kexi and Glom is worthwhile for us, and confirm
the choice we made.
However, infortunately, Horst Knorr is, from 2005, no more active,(see
faq at http://knoda.sourceforge.net/ ) and it seems that there is nobody
who took the charge to maintain Knoda.


 Sherwood Botsford skribis (esperanto estas la unua internacia lingvo):

> This is a log of my experience with knoda.  I hope it will help see
> what a new person to this software sees, and that people looking at
> this can use this to improve both the software and the documentation.
>
> My background:  I have used linux for about 15 years, and have spend
> much of my working life as a computer geek.  I have never been a
> database administrator.  I have a hobby tree farm and it is now
> getting to the point where spreadsheets no longer work to keep track
> of what I've got, and which trees were planted when, and just where
> are the dogwoods, and how many Japanese fantail willow do I have?
>
> I figure if I stumble over something, then it's probably worth a look.
>
> Turns out that knoda is not available as a binary package.  I brought
> down the tarballs, hk_classes built without even a warning as far as I
> could see.  Knoda fussed a bit about linking against a module.
>
> In the first ten minutes I was able to create a pair of tables, Names
> for scientific and common names of my trees, and Trees which has thier
> height, location.  The idea is to link these across so that I can
> enter an abbreviation once, and the rest fills in.
>
> (In passing:  I was not able to get this far at all with rekall
> (rekall has serious issues with python 2.5+)  kexi doesn't do reports,
> and glom wants to use a different port on postgres, and I don't want
> to change my postgres to suit it.)
>
> Connecting to postgresql was a snap, but I already had this working for rekall.
>
> Generating the two tables was easy.
>
> Form work is (so far) a bit confusing.  The tutorial doesn't explain
> the function of Id, of Identifier, of the (number) after the
> datasource, and that of Label for lineedit field.  My assumption is
> that forms are stored as hidden tables, that the Id is an identifier
> of this element in the database, that the (number) in an index into a
> list of tables in this database.  Haven't figured out a plausible
> explanation for Identifier yet, nor why the data field has a label
> that can be separate from the textlabel.
>
> Some of this will doubtless come clear as I continue to work through
> the tutorial, but it's clear as mud in the chapter on forms.
>
> My expectation:  The first time a panel is referenced, there is either
> a mention, or a link to an explanation of each item on that page.  The
> explanation should state *what* it is, *when* I (as a user) would need
> to know about it, and a pointer to further examples.  E.g.  "Editlines
> have a label, which for now you can ignore.  This later will allow us
> to automate the form makeing process, and remove the need for having a
> separate TextLabel."
>
> As a wish along those lines, right now to add a field for a form I have to:
> 1.  Select edit line.
> 2.  click about where I want it.
> 3.  adjust position.
> 4.  adjust size.
> 5. pick a label (default to field name)
> 6. select TextLabel
> 7. clcik about where I want it.
> 8. type it's name in the Label field.  (Why does a text label have a tool tip?)
>
> For a lot of things, it may be easier to have a "quick form" with is a
> column of field names, and a column of editlines.  This allows quick
> prototyping of a form, allows the user to enter a bunch of typical
> data, and find out all the places where the editlines are too small.
> >From this form, then, it can be re-arranged for better use later.
>
> This brings a more general notion.  It should be very quick to do
> something the easy way.   That easy way can then be refined.
>
> So far so good.  I'm very impressed with what I can do so far.  It
> works, it's doesn't require that I learn SQL (yet...)  I haven't made
> it crash yet.  All are points in it's favour.
>
> As I continue with my discoveries, I'll post to the list.
>
>
>

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[SGBotsford]

I was beginning to think that was the case, after several days on the
list with very little traffic.
Rekall has the same issue.

What choice did you eventually make?

I've also looked at pfm, but it appears that you have to really know
postgres before it's much use to you.  I've also looked at PgAdmin
III.  Again, the learning curve appears closer to a cliff to get
started.

I've also looked at bond.  While editing xml is a bit icky, it appears
simpler than PgAdmin or pfm.

I've run out of options in Linux.  Right now I'm looking at doing this
in MS Access running on WinXP in VirtualBox.  I have VB anyway for
other reasons.  (Digikam is not as effective as IMatch for maintaining
photo libraries, and Gimp doesn't hack it compared to photoshop.)  My
other option is Filemaker under Mac.




--
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA
-OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise
-Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation
-Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD
http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H
_______________________________________________
Hk-classes-discuss mailing list
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[robert leleu]

 Sherwood Botsford skribis (esperanto estas la unua internacia lingvo):
> I was beginning to think that was the case, after several days on the
> list with very little traffic.
> Rekall has the same issue.
>
> What choice did you eventually make?
When I choose Knoda, Horst Knorr was present  (I even receive an answer
from him)

>
> I've also looked at pfm, but it appears that you have to really know
> postgres before it's much use to you.  I've also looked at PgAdmin
> III.  Again, the learning curve appears closer to a cliff to get
> started.
>
> I've also looked at bond.  While editing xml is a bit icky, it appears
> simpler than PgAdmin or pfm.
>
> I've run out of options in Linux.  Right now I'm looking at doing this
> in MS Access running on WinXP in VirtualBox.  I have VB anyway for
> other reasons.  (Digikam is not as effective as IMatch for maintaining
> photo libraries, and Gimp doesn't hack it compared to photoshop.)  My
> other option is Filemaker under Mac.

Obviously you've looked at far more options than I did (so I plan to
have a look also).

Since you doesn't seem to be bound to free software, I would suggest
Windev, which I used for years.
Wysiwig user-friendly combination of relational database with
windows-front-end seems to be scarce anymay....or perhaps should one
consider php system, but I don't know of elaborated front-end for php....

windev is in http://www.pcsoft.fr/index.html (also have a look at webdev)
They uses a proprietary 4th generation object-oriented language,
available in french and in english, with debugger and so on, much more
elaborated as any free competitor, so, as they claim, you develop must
faster. In fact it looks to me that it is to informatic languages what
esperanto is to natural languages: much easier.....except that esperanto
is free, and windev is not
>
>
>
>


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-Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation
-Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD
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[David Greaves]

Sherwood Botsford wrote:
> This is a log of my experience with knoda.  I hope it will help see
> what a new person to this software sees, and that people looking at
> this can use this to improve both the software and the documentation.

As already mentioned, knoda is not actively maintained so it's not likely to
change or improve much. It is based on python2.5 which is also old-ish.
As a corollary however, it is unlikely to break either :)

I think you will find it pretty powerful as you get used to it.

> My background:  I have used linux for about 15 years, and have spend
> much of my working life as a computer geek.  I have never been a
> database administrator.  I have a hobby tree farm and it is now
> getting to the point where spreadsheets no longer work to keep track
> of what I've got, and which trees were planted when, and just where
> are the dogwoods, and how many Japanese fantail willow do I have?
Knoda is a good choice.
Essentially you'll be storing your data in SQL in postgresql/mysql; if Knoda
becomes unusable in 10 years time then you won't lose your data.


> I figure if I stumble over something, then it's probably worth a look.
>
> Turns out that knoda is not available as a binary package.

Maybe not on your distro?
On Debian (and I guess Ubuntu) I run:
  apt-get install knoda
and it 'just works'

> Form work is (so far) a bit confusing.  The tutorial doesn't explain
> the function of Id, of Identifier, of the (number) after the
> datasource,
AFAIK these are internal identifiers.
They *may* be useable for low-level access - not sure :)

> and that of Label for lineedit field.  My assumption is
> that forms are stored as hidden tables,
They can be stored as tables centrally or in
~/.hk_classes/<driver>/<App>/<form>.hk_form

See the 'Object Manager' to move from one to another.

> that the Id is an identifier
> of this element in the database, that the (number) in an index into a
> list of tables in this database.  Haven't figured out a plausible
> explanation for Identifier yet, nor why the data field has a label
> that can be separate from the textlabel.
Maybe it was intended to one day...

> My expectation:  The first time a panel is referenced, there is either
> a mention, or a link to an explanation of each item on that page.  The
> explanation should state *what* it is, *when* I (as a user) would need
> to know about it, and a pointer to further examples.  E.g.  "Editlines
> have a label, which for now you can ignore.  This later will allow us
> to automate the form makeing process, and remove the need for having a
> separate TextLabel."

Sadly open source is often about exploring - very few people contribute back in
the form of documentation. It doesn't help that Knoda is stable and has no
community wiki.
This could be a starting place... http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Knoda

> As a wish along those lines, right now to add a field for a form I have to:
> 1.  Select edit line.
> 2.  click about where I want it.
> 3.  adjust position.
> 4.  adjust size.
> 5. pick a label (default to field name)
> 6. select TextLabel
> 7. clcik about where I want it.
> 8. type it's name in the Label field.  (Why does a text label have a tool tip?)
>
> For a lot of things, it may be easier to have a "quick form" with is a
> column of field names, and a column of editlines.  This allows quick
> prototyping of a form, allows the user to enter a bunch of typical
> data, and find out all the places where the editlines are too small.
>>From this form, then, it can be re-arranged for better use later.

Yes, that would be nice.
Unlikely to happen now though.


> As I continue with my discoveries, I'll post to the list.
You may want to write to a wiki and link...

David

--
"Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once..."

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-OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise
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[robert leleu]

Did you considered http://dabodev.com/#db  ? (I was not able to see
their *.swf demos)


 Sherwood Botsford skribis (esperanto estas la unua internacia lingvo):

> I was beginning to think that was the case, after several days on the
> list with very little traffic.
> Rekall has the same issue.
>
> What choice did you eventually make?
>
> I've also looked at pfm, but it appears that you have to really know
> postgres before it's much use to you.  I've also looked at PgAdmin
> III.  Again, the learning curve appears closer to a cliff to get
> started.
>
> I've also looked at bond.  While editing xml is a bit icky, it appears
> simpler than PgAdmin or pfm.
>
> I've run out of options in Linux.  Right now I'm looking at doing this
> in MS Access running on WinXP in VirtualBox.  I have VB anyway for
> other reasons.  (Digikam is not as effective as IMatch for maintaining
> photo libraries, and Gimp doesn't hack it compared to photoshop.)  My
> other option is Filemaker under Mac.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA
-OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise
-Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation
-Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD
http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H
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Hk-classes-discuss mailing list
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