Nabble - Free Software in Manchester

Re: FOSDEM 2010 - 6th - 7th February in Brussels, Belgium

2009-12-22T10:53:36Z

Michael Dorrington wrote:
> http://www.fosdem.org/2010/
> "FOSDEM '10 is a free and non-commercial event organized by the
> community, for the community. Its goal is to provide Free and Open
> Source developers a place to meet. _No registration necessary._"
>
> Anyone on the list going?

Yes, I hope so. Loved every second last year.
Need to get stuff sorted though. Bit busy at the moment so I can't
really confirm anything.

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Re: Animation app ?

2009-12-22T06:04:19Z

I've added a section to our FAQ[1] "What free software is there for
animation?"[2] from the suggestions given with links to all the
software. Feel free to add things or correct.

Cheers,
Mike.

[1] http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/FAQ
[2]
http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/FAQ#What_free_software_is_there_for_animation.3F

allcoms wrote:

> Hi Simon
>
> Unfortunately no. Although there are are a few good sites and groups
> dedicated to creating audio and music with Linux (lad, linuxaudio,
> 'Studio Dave'), there isn't a real good site that focuses on linux
> video and graphics that I'm aware of. There has been talk on the lad
> (Linux Audio Developers) list of starting a similar group dedicated to
> FOSS video but nothing ever came of it AFAIK.
>
> The best resources for searching for Linux software, which I'm sure
> most everyone on here are already familiar with, are:
>
> http://freshmeat.net/
>
> http://www.gnomefiles.org/
>
> http://www.kde-apps.org/
>
> Two good video apps that I neglected to mention in my previous post
> are avidemux, for basic editing, conversion and frame-by-frame
> previewing and the video-dedicated fork of the GIMP, Cinepaint, for
> video retouching.
>
> Dan
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 05:43:28PM +0000, allcoms wrote:
>>> There are a few good FOSS animation packages you should check out:
>> Oh, I didn’t even know about some of these, and I have looked. Thanks!
>>
>> Are there any particular places I should be looking for
>> graphics/video/animation stuff, other than popular search engines?
>>
>> Simon Ward
>> --
>> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
>> simple system that works.—John Gall
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
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>> =pLZ+
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Animation app ?

2009-12-21T23:56:33Z

Hi Simon

Unfortunately no. Although there are are a few good sites and groups
dedicated to creating audio and music with Linux (lad, linuxaudio,
'Studio Dave'), there isn't a real good site that focuses on linux
video and graphics that I'm aware of. There has been talk on the lad
(Linux Audio Developers) list of starting a similar group dedicated to
FOSS video but nothing ever came of it AFAIK.

The best resources for searching for Linux software, which I'm sure
most everyone on here are already familiar with, are:

http://freshmeat.net/

http://www.gnomefiles.org/

http://www.kde-apps.org/

Two good video apps that I neglected to mention in my previous post
are avidemux, for basic editing, conversion and frame-by-frame
previewing and the video-dedicated fork of the GIMP, Cinepaint, for
video retouching.

Dan

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 05:43:28PM +0000, allcoms wrote:
>> There are a few good FOSS animation packages you should check out:
>
> Oh, I didn’t even know about some of these, and I have looked. Thanks!
>
> Are there any particular places I should be looking for
> graphics/video/animation stuff, other than popular search engines?
>
> Simon Ward
> --
> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
> simple system that works.—John Gall
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJLL/3+AAoJECRyzizpC9xmVUgP/09nVJ+tyA35oidMv2Q5Gw4o
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> CRmYwCst9IPHWZvhgMhPsPXi9VvrexcDO5Ww3EjCpqj926vKiGnx4w5qwRl1peFB
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> +wOsP2CepUCh1eek+c8q
> =pLZ+
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Fsuk-manchester@...
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>
>

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Re: Animation app ?

2009-12-21T14:59:18Z

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 05:43:28PM +0000, allcoms wrote:
> There are a few good FOSS animation packages you should check out:

Oh, I didn’t even know about some of these, and I have looked. Thanks!

Are there any particular places I should be looking for
graphics/video/animation stuff, other than popular search engines?

Simon Ward
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall

Re: Animation app ?

2009-12-21T09:43:28Z

Hi Des!

There are a few good FOSS animation packages you should check out:

3D modelling, rendering and animation

http://www.blender.org/

2D vector animation

http://www.synfig.com/

2D bitmap and vector animation

http://www.pencil-animation.org/

Stopmotion

http://developer.skolelinux.no/info/studentgrupper/2005-hig-stopmotion/

There is also GAP (the GIMP animation plugin) and I understand there
are plans to extend inkscape so it can handle animation. Whilst not
strictly animation packages, I think you'll find these very handy too:

winff - Easy (batch) video conversion gui

DeVeDe - Creates DVD and other video discs from movie files

xawdecode / xdtv - Best linux app for analogue (v4l(2)) video capture
and mp4 streaming

handbrake - Nice gui for ripping DVDs

kdenlive - the future of foss video editing, also see cinelerra

Have a freely animated Christmas!

Dan

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM, green h <des@...> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I was wondering if any of you are animators and/or would know of any good
> animation apps?
>
> Thanks
>
> Best regards, Des
>
> 'Phone :   + 44 (0)79 7095 0070
> email   :   des@...
> www    :   www.greenh.co.uk
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> green h is operated by Joint Sales Limited as a great way to get a computer,
> a 'free franchise' for anyone who wants to do this in their area and
> a unique method of providing technology to businesses and communities.
>
> green h consulting uses the principles behind green h for specific projects
> and settings
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Joint Sales is a United Kingdom limited liability company. Company
> registration number
> is 3916417. Registered office is at 144 Egerton Road North MANCHESTER M16
> 0DB
>
> Unless agreed otherwise, all services and products supplied by green h are
> subject to our
> standard terms and conditions, available on request.
>
> Joint Sales Limited is not bound by the content of this email and accepts no
> liability whatsoever
> for any loss or damage resulting from the transmittal of this email.
>
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>
>

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Animation app ?

2009-12-21T03:59:13Z

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you are animators and/or would know of any good animation apps?

Thanks

Best regards, Des

'Phone :   + 44 (0)79 7095 0070
email   :   des@...
www    :   www.greenh.co.uk

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
green h is operated by Joint Sales Limited as a great way to get a computer,
a 'free franchise' for anyone who wants to do this in their area and
a unique method of providing technology to businesses and communities.

green h consulting uses the principles behind green h for specific projects and settings

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Joint Sales is a United Kingdom limited liability company. Company registration number
is 3916417. Registered office is at 144 Egerton Road North MANCHESTER M16 0DB

Unless agreed otherwise, all services and products supplied by green h are subject to our
standard terms and conditions, available on request.

Joint Sales Limited is not bound by the content of this email and accepts no liability whatsoever
for any loss or damage resulting from the transmittal of this email.

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FOSDEM 2010 - 6th - 7th February in Brussels, Belgium

2009-12-18T16:05:59Z

http://www.fosdem.org/2010/
"FOSDEM '10 is a free and non-commercial event organized by the
community, for the community. Its goal is to provide Free and Open
Source developers a place to meet. _No registration necessary._"

Anyone on the list going?

M.

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Re: Post Bug Reporting talk

2009-12-18T15:22:25Z

Michael Dorrington wrote:
[snip]
> Since the talk I've submitted two bug reports so far.
[snip]
> The second one is for a game called stormbaancoureur. The report was an
[snip]
> I submitted the report upstream too and just had a nice email back from
> them.

For stormbaancoureur, upstream has released a updated version that is
fixed and its now in Debian. Bug closed.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=534773#20

And the bug reporting continues. :)
Three more bug reports. A typo, a homepage no longer available and an
installation report with bugs.

Savannah: My Group Membership spelling mistake
https://gna.org/bugs/?14932
Just a spelling mistake, easy to report. Now fixed. Bug closed.

libjsw: Homepage gives 404
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561633
Package description upstream homepage gives 404 Not Found. Basically,
upstream is dead, just making it more clear.

installation-reports: kfreebsd-i386 20091217-11:20
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561595
Includes issues encountered while installing Debian GNU/kFreeBSD[1].

Please post any bugs you report to the list to encourage others.

M.

[1] http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/
I'm looking for technical people to team up with to get GNU/kFreeBSD
as an official release in squeeze. Email me if you're interested.

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Sam Ramji from Codeplex Foundation answers community questions

2009-12-16T15:08:31Z

This is "interesting", however suspicious and unsupportive I am of it.

http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/09/12/16/1635229/Sam-Ramji-Answers-Your-Questions

Sam Ramji used to be head of Microsoft's "open source" lab, if I
remember correctly. He left Microsoft earlier this year to set up the
Codeplex foundation.

Thoughts?

Try and be nice to each other :)

Tim

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Manchester Free Software Talk - Michael Dorrington : 100% free software gaming: No cheating! - Tuesday 19th January

2009-12-16T14:47:55Z

Next month's Manchester Free Software talk will take place on Tuesday -
the 19th January.

Talk
------
Graphical computer games[1] are a part of software, even free software.
They are fun and are useful for making the free software user happier.

Michael will be demonstrating 100% free software graphical games on 100%
free software system. There are lots of free software graphical games.
Unfortunately, many are not in a suitable state of completion, are not
good games or require non-free video drivers. The talk will show top
quality free software graphical games that work well on free video drivers.

The style of game demonstrated will include fast paced FPS, racing,
graphically rich arcade, RTS, Point-and-click adventure.

The talk will include which graphics hardware works best in free
software, what features are missing and the settings required on games
to get them running at the required speed.

We welcome lightening talks from people demonstrating their favourite
100% free software graphical games on 100% free software system. Please
contact us at <team@...>.

Michael has been using GNU/Linux for many years, has played some
graphical computer games in that time and is currently Chairperson of
Manchester Free Software.

Location
----------
The meeting will take place at the usual time, 7pm, at the Lass
O'Gowrie pub on Charles Street in Central Manchester. We will be
located in the Salmon Room upstairs, although there will be people
around a little earlier downstairs (probably sampling the food and
drinks on offer). Just ask at the bar if you can't find us. Their
website[2] has full details of how to get there and the fine selection
of food and drink available. The venue also provides wifi.

Workshop Reminder
-----------------
Manchester Free Software are holding workshops subject to demand.

With sufficient demand we will run a workshop following on from the talk
at 19:00 on Wednesday 20th January 2010 at Manchester Digital
Development Agency[3].

More Information
---------------

General information about Manchester Free Software meetings can be
found on our websites[4][5][6].

If you would like five minutes to tell us about something, please
contact us at <team@...>.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_video_game
[2]: http://www.thelass.co.uk/
[3]: http://manchesterdda.com/
[4]: http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/Meetings
[5]: http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2010-01-19
[6]: http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/meetings/

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Administrative and Social Meeting - 11th January

2009-12-16T13:10:20Z

The January administrative meeting will be on the second Monday of the
month at the usual time and place:

* Date: Monday, 11th January
* Time: 19:00
* Location: The Waterhouse

The meeting is open to everyone and normally lasts about an hour and an
half. At the meeting we review what we've done, assess where we are and
plan what to do. This is your opportunity to get involved. We welcome
new people wanting to help the group achieve its goals.

We stay around for a social meet up afterwards, so it's a good
opportunity to meet up with people and have a chat.

Minutes from last meeting which was held on 14th December are at
http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2009-12-14/Minutes

The Agenda for this meeting will be at
http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2010-01-11

If you have any thing you'd like included in the Agenda please contact us.

Regards,
Mike
MFS Chair

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Re: Manchester Free Software, Christmas Party - Tuesday 15th December

2009-12-16T07:23:18Z

2009/12/12 Michael Dorrington <michael.dorrington@...>:
> This month's Manchester Free Software talk won’t be a talk but our
> Christmas party!
>
> Party
> -----
> We can use this opportunity to do some keysigning[1], have an informal
> chat about OpenPGP[2], informally discuss what we'd like to do next
> year, and anything else free software related.

I missed this due to having to go Christmas shopping, unfortunately.
How did it go? How many people turned up?

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Re: Re: Call for talks from you

2009-12-14T09:02:42Z

---- Michael Dorrington <michael.dorrington@...> wrote:

> Michael Dorrington wrote:
> > We are looking for talks, including lightening talks, on topics relating
> > to free software for our group meetings[1]. We are particularly
> > interested in talks from group members, that's you!
> >
> > Our talks need to be accessible to a non-technical audience. Please have
> > a look at previous talks we've had on the wiki[1] but don't be
> > constrained by them. I know group members have got interesting talks on
> > free software in them so let's get them out. :)
> > Dear all,

I agree LVM is a good subject as are others, especialy if you want to attract non-specialists.Update managament is also an issue with newbies but then you would need the audiance.

Roy.

> > We will accept talks of varying lengths so you don't have to talk for an
> > hour and a half if you don't want to:
> >
> > * Lightening talk: 5-15 minutes long. They will be appended/prepended to
> > a Short or Long talk.
> > * Short talk: 30-45 minutes long. We could have 2 of these together or
> > one with 2 lightening talks.
> > * Long (normal length) talk: 60-90 minutes long.
> >
> > We can provide a projector and, with luck, wifi. We have been known to
> > video our talks and redistribute them under a Creative Commons license.
> > We are happy not to video your talk on request.
> >
> > The dates available for talks in 2010 are listed on the wiki[1].
> >
> > Hope to hear you speak.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike.
> > MFS Chair.
> >
> > [1] http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/Meetings#Group_Meetings
>
> Some ideas for talks I have. Please comment on those you'd like to see.
>
> * Linux device-mapper: LVM, RAID, Multipath, dm-crypt
> Explain LVM, LV, VG, PV, PE, etc. Advantages/disadvantages of LVM. Show
> resizing, renaming, moving. Discuss different RAID types.
>
>
> * 100% free software gaming: No cheating!
>
> The talk would demonstrate 100% free software games on 100% free
> software system. There are lots of free software games. Unfortunately,
> many are not in a suitable state of completion, are not good games or
> require non-free video drivers. The talk would show top quality free
> software games that work well on free video drivers.
>
> The style of game demo'd would include fast paced FPS, racing,
> graphically rich arcade, RTS, Point-and-click adventure.
>
> It would include which GFX hardware works best in free software, what
> features are missing and the settings required on games to get speed.
>
> Possibly have lightening talks from people demo'ing their favourite games.
>
>
> * GNU's Not Linux: Alternative kernels for the GNU system.
> Show the GNU system running on the FreeBSD kernel (Debian GNU/kFreeBSD)
> and the Hurd (Debian GNU/Hurd). Show how to install, the current state
> and features differing from Linux.
> What better way to explain why we insist on the term GNU/Linux than to
> show a GNU system running without Linux!
>
>
> * KVM (Kernel Virtual Machine): How to use and its uses
> Describe what virtual machines are, why you would want to use them and
> then how to use kvm.
>
>
> * Building from source: Use the source, Luke!
> Access to the source code of a program is required by the essential
> freedoms <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>. The talk would
> describe how to turn the source code into program, why you might want to
> build from source, applying patches, dealing with revision control
> systems, getting dependances, ./configure and customising, make, Linux
> from Scratch <http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/>.
>
>
> * Free Software on Windows
> Recommendations for free software on Windows. Could use Wine
> <http://www.winehq.org/> to run demos.
>
> http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/FAQ#What_free_software_is_there_for_the_Microsoft_Windows_OS.3F
>
>
> * Wine: Windows without Windows
> Describe and demonstrate wine, which allows you to "Run Windows
> applications on Linux, BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X".
>
>
> Regards,
> Mike.
>
>
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Reminder: Administrative and Social Meeting - 14th December

2009-12-14T00:53:30Z

The admin meeting is tonight and the Christmas party is tomorrow night.

Michael Dorrington wrote:

> The December administrative meeting will be on the second Monday of the
> month at the usual time and place:
>
> * Date: Monday, 14th December
> * Time: 19:00
> * Location: The Waterhouse
>
> The meeting is open to everyone and normally lasts about an hour and an
> half. At the meeting we review what we've done, assess where we are and
> plan what to do. This is your opportunity to get involved. We welcome
> new people wanting to help the group achieve its goals.
>
> We stay around for a social meet up afterwards, so it’s a good
> opportunity to meet up with people and have a chat.
>
> Minutes from last meeting which was held on 9th November are at
> http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2009-11-09/Minutes
>
> Draft Agenda for this meeting is at
> http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2009-12-14
>
> If you have any thing you’d like included in the Agenda please contact us.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
> MFS Chair

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Re: TEDxManchester - 2nd October 2009 (daytime)

2009-12-12T12:13:07Z

Michael Dorrington wrote:

> Tim Dobson wrote:
>> Michael Dorrington wrote:
>>> Tim Dobson wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>> I've been booked onto this since July.
>>> Looking forward to putting the case of Free Software and freedom to them
>>> with you.
>> So I've just looked through the speakers list and recognised a few faces.
> [snip]
>
> They did use some free software at the event. They used VLC[1] to play
> the TED videos (on a non-free OS) and they used (open?)SUSE[2] on the
> mixing desk to monitor (and record?) the videos.

Actually they used the GPL-licenced Ingex video recording system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingex
http://ingex.sourceforge.net/

Ingex Studio which is what they had on their mixing desks runs primarily
on OpenSUSE.

There's a segment in BBC R&D TV episode two where one of the developers
talks at some length about it:
http://welcomebackstage.com/2009/06/rdtv-episode-2/

Speaking of BBC R&D tv, there are videos of the TEDxManchester talks
for anyone who wasn't there:
http://welcomebackstage.com/2009/11/rdtv-episode-3-tedxmanchester-special/

Tim

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Re: Call for talks from you

2009-12-12T10:24:25Z

Michael Dorrington wrote:

> We are looking for talks, including lightening talks, on topics relating
> to free software for our group meetings[1]. We are particularly
> interested in talks from group members, that's you!
>
> Our talks need to be accessible to a non-technical audience. Please have
> a look at previous talks we've had on the wiki[1] but don't be
> constrained by them. I know group members have got interesting talks on
> free software in them so let's get them out. :)
>
> We will accept talks of varying lengths so you don't have to talk for an
> hour and a half if you don't want to:
>
> * Lightening talk: 5-15 minutes long. They will be appended/prepended to
> a Short or Long talk.
> * Short talk: 30-45 minutes long. We could have 2 of these together or
> one with 2 lightening talks.
> * Long (normal length) talk: 60-90 minutes long.
>
> We can provide a projector and, with luck, wifi. We have been known to
> video our talks and redistribute them under a Creative Commons license.
> We are happy not to video your talk on request.
>
> The dates available for talks in 2010 are listed on the wiki[1].
>
> Hope to hear you speak.
>
> Regards,
> Mike.
> MFS Chair.
>
> [1] http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/Meetings#Group_Meetings

Some ideas for talks I have. Please comment on those you'd like to see.

* Linux device-mapper: LVM, RAID, Multipath, dm-crypt
Explain LVM, LV, VG, PV, PE, etc. Advantages/disadvantages of LVM. Show
resizing, renaming, moving. Discuss different RAID types.

* 100% free software gaming: No cheating!

The talk would demonstrate 100% free software games on 100% free
software system. There are lots of free software games. Unfortunately,
many are not in a suitable state of completion, are not good games or
require non-free video drivers. The talk would show top quality free
software games that work well on free video drivers.

The style of game demo'd would include fast paced FPS, racing,
graphically rich arcade, RTS, Point-and-click adventure.

It would include which GFX hardware works best in free software, what
features are missing and the settings required on games to get speed.

Possibly have lightening talks from people demo'ing their favourite games.

* GNU's Not Linux: Alternative kernels for the GNU system.
Show the GNU system running on the FreeBSD kernel (Debian GNU/kFreeBSD)
and the Hurd (Debian GNU/Hurd). Show how to install, the current state
and features differing from Linux.
What better way to explain why we insist on the term GNU/Linux than to
show a GNU system running without Linux!

* KVM (Kernel Virtual Machine): How to use and its uses
Describe what virtual machines are, why you would want to use them and
then how to use kvm.

* Building from source: Use the source, Luke!
Access to the source code of a program is required by the essential
freedoms <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>. The talk would
describe how to turn the source code into program, why you might want to
build from source, applying patches, dealing with revision control
systems, getting dependances, ./configure and customising, make, Linux
from Scratch <http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/>.

* Free Software on Windows
Recommendations for free software on Windows. Could use Wine
<http://www.winehq.org/> to run demos.

http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/FAQ#What_free_software_is_there_for_the_Microsoft_Windows_OS.3F

* Wine: Windows without Windows
Describe and demonstrate wine, which allows you to "Run Windows
applications on Linux, BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X".

Regards,
Mike.

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Re: TEDxManchester - 2nd October 2009 (daytime)

2009-12-12T08:47:46Z

Tim Dobson wrote:
> Michael Dorrington wrote:
>> Tim Dobson wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> I've been booked onto this since July.
>>
>> Looking forward to putting the case of Free Software and freedom to them
>> with you.
>
> So I've just looked through the speakers list and recognised a few faces.
[snip]

They did use some free software at the event. They used VLC[1] to play
the TED videos (on a non-free OS) and they used (open?)SUSE[2] on the
mixing desk to monitor (and record?) the videos.

M.

[1] http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
[2] http://www.opensuse.org/en/

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Manchester Free Software, Christmas Party - Tuesday 15th December

2009-12-12T05:36:51Z

This month's Manchester Free Software talk won’t be a talk but our
Christmas party!

Party
-----
We can use this opportunity to do some keysigning[1], have an informal
chat about OpenPGP[2], informally discuss what we'd like to do next
year, and anything else free software related.

Location
--------
The meeting will take place at the usual time, 7pm, at the Lass
O'Gowrie pub on Charles Street in Central Manchester. We will be
located downstairs (probably sampling the food and drinks on offer).
Their website[3] has full details of how to get there and the fine
selection of food and drink available. The venue also provides wifi.

Workshop Reminder
-----------------
There won't be a workshop this month. We can discuss what people would
like to see workshops in and whether to continue running them at the party.

More Information
----------------
General information about Manchester Free Software meetings can be
found on our websites[5][6].

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keysigning
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
[3]: http://www.thelass.co.uk/
[4]: http://manchesterdda.com/
[5]: http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/Meetings
[6]: http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/meetings/

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-09T23:16:17Z

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:03:05PM +0000, roy.evison@... wrote:
> > Dear if you care to listen,

It’s hard, I’m not sure if you are reading my posts. Please try to
quote and respond to specific points. If you want to start a new
discussion, start a new thread.

> copyright, and that is eventually what is being talked about, not
> isolated areas like software

You can use copyright to good effect, like with free software. There
are also movements towards free media. These sort of freedoms are
probably universal, but let’s be clear here:

* This mailing list is about free software
* I use and develop software, I care about software
* I also happen to care about other stuff, but I’m talking about free
software, here, on this free software list.

Copyright is different for different works. In many cases copyright on
software has its own terms, but in UK law it is partially lumped in with
“literary” works. There is no reason why copyright can not be (more)
different for software. I have already suggested that copyright terms
should be different for software because of its nature.

Richard Stallman has several essays on copyright, but I suggest you read
at least “Misinterpreting Copyright—A Series of Errors”[1] and
“Copyright and Globalization in the Age of Computer Networks”[2]. These
are also available in the book “Free Software, Free Society: Selected
Essays of Richard M. Stallman”[3] which you can purchase (Manchester
Free Software still have some copies, I believe), or download.

[1]: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html
[2]: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/copyright-and-globalization.html
[3]: http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-software-free-society/

> is governed by law and validated by the country it is registered in.

Proposed changes are fairly universal, but mostly applicable to the UK
where I have the most knowledge.

One aim is to improve copyright law, everywhere. Trying to convince one
jurisdiction to change their laws will also work a lot better if there
are other jurisdictions that have changed, or propose to change.

> Individuals want paying for what they do

They should charge for what they do. If you think the effort you put in
is monstrous, charge a monstrous fee. I have no problem with that.

> and if that involves repeat payments then o.k.

Repeat payments are not okay if you subjugate people to get them. As
discussed, this often involves locking people in, and restricting what
they can do.

I have the same issue with music and video, where digital restrictions
management (DRM) seems to be more prevalent, but again, I’m about free
software here.

Simon
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-09T09:03:05Z

---- Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:04:53AM +0000, roy.evison@... wrote:
> > I would tend to agree but what two parties set up is between them
> > unless published under particular auspices. Yes software will have a
> > useful, or sellable, life-span but setting parameters may not be
> > useful.If you are a free-lance developer how do you guarantee your
> > income?
> Dear if you care to listen,
copyright, and that is eventually what is being talked about, not isolated areas like software, is governed by law and validated by the country it is registered in. Individuals want paying for what they do and if that involves repeat payments then o.k. but that is different to organisations exercising thier collective muscles.

Roy.

> This question always comes up, and the answer is to do what you do best
> and sell that: Develop, and charge people for your development effort.
>
> Stallman’s opinion appears to be a very staunch find another way to make
> money that doesn’t involve subjugating users, but I find that when you
> put it that way developers may become upset and defensive, and not very
> willing to listen to reason. I’m not primarily a developer, but I feel
> some of that too.
>
> If you are a developer, base your pricing on actually developing the
> software, not on developing something once and expecting to sell it lots
> of times to make your money back, which usually involves restricting
> users’ freedoms in order to prevent them from using or modifying the
> software they have and possibly locking them in so that developers can
> monopolize further development of it.
>
> Other ways are to offer services around your software. Support it,
> maintain it, and charge for these efforts. Sell printed manuals, or
> even traditional boxed copies (but when you do that, charge for the
> production, with a little profit, not the development - there was
> little, if any, development effort into the reproduction).
>
> Simon
> --
> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
> simple system that works.—John Gall

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Re: Post Bug Reporting talk (was Apologies and thanks.)

2009-12-07T15:21:16Z

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:02:52PM +0000, Lucy wrote:
> I'd like to see the word 'freetard' banned from this list. It's an
> incredibly insulting and childish word that helps no one.

It’s definitely a word to be avoided, and I hope that people will
consider the insulting nature of it should they ever think of using it
in future. I’m not for banning words or phrases, use them at your own
risk.

> I wouldn't say that someone who uses free software simply because it
> costs nothing is selfish. I'd call them lucky. I understand that
> people on this list are interested in doing more than simply using
> free software and there are loads of different ways to contribute. So
> I don't think that someone who has yet to submit a bug report is
> somehow lesser than someone who has.

Some people on this list may well only be interested in using free
software, and have no real intentions of contributing to it. I don’t
think they are lesser people either. We want people to benefit from
free software, that is one of the reasons it exists.

I prefer to use free software because of the freedoms I get. I feel
obliged to contribute in some way, but no free software licence forces
people to do so. Forcing people to contribute conflicts with freedom 0.
Quoting from the free software definition[1]:

“The freedom to run the program means the freedom for any kind
of person or organization to use it on any kind of computer
system, for any kind of overall job and purpose, without being
required to communicate about it with the developer or any other
specific entity. In this freedom, it is the user's purpose that
matters, not the developer's purpose; you as a user are free to
run a program for your purposes, and if you distribute it to
someone else, she is then free to run it for her purposes, but
you are not entitled to impose your purposes on her.”

Deriding people, something that can have an adverse psychological
effect, for not contributing is imposing on them.

I hope that’s clear.

[1]: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Simon
--
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simple system that works.—John Gall

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Re: Post Bug Reporting talk (was Apologies and thanks.)

2009-12-07T14:57:59Z

[I missed this, but somebody mentioned it and suggested I read it.]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 08:16:54PM +0000, Michael Dorrington wrote:
> Since the talk I've submitted two bug reports so far.

Good work on the bug reports, and it’s nice to see contribution
encouraged. There are, however, many ways of contributing to free
software other than bug reporting. Bug reporting just happens to be one
of the easiest things to do…

> In the talk I was going to say: "Don't call yourself a free software
> advocate if you haven't submitted a bug report." but thought it might
> be too harsh.

Meaning this is way to harsh as you initially thought.

You don’t even have to directly contribute to free software to be an
advocate of it. Spreading the word, and educating people about free
software can be a massive contribution in its own right, and is written
in our manifesto.

> But now I think that whether you've submitted a bug report, or not,
> separates out the freedom lovers, which is what free software is
> about, from the freetards, who want things at no cost, which is *not*
> what free software is about.

If you haven’t submitted a bug report you are a “freetard”[1], who wants
things at no cost? Are we down to calling people names now? I know,
sticks and stones, but this is low.

[1] freetard, a term originally used to refer to free software zealots
<http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=fake+steve+jobs+%2Bfreetard>.

Simon
--
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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-07T12:55:40Z

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 01:34:42PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> This is easier written than done. We try, but quite apart from the
> marketing something so different, it's getting gradually harder as
> protectionist laws further entrench the
> make-it-once/restrict-it/sell-it-lots model of new enclosures and
> exploitation, empowering copyright thugs to scare FOSS users.

Surely we should be fighting these laws instead of submitting to them
and further oppressing software users? This is just another reason to
advocate free software.

> The problem with that is that it requires developers to do less
> development and more maintenance and support (sometimes healthy!),
> manual-printing and box-arranging.

So doing development and attempting to make a living from development
alone is actually hard work. Locking users in apparently makes it
easier to make money without having to put the extra efforts in. That’s
a very unfortunate situation, but I have no sympathy for developers who
do this.

> 1. many small-audience manuals have a non-trivial amount of
> development effort embodied in each copy produced, so the fairer way
> is to share the development cost across the low end sales estimate;

Fairer to whom? The developers, or the users?

If printing manuals is loss-making for you, why do it at the expense of
software and its users? I gave some suggestions for other ways of
making money, I didn’t say you could necessarily make them work well for
you.

> 2. is it any more ethical to profiteer from manual production than
> software production?

No (I hope my comment did not come across as implication that it is).

Although, when does it become profiteering? With software I would
definitely include conscious attempts to lock people in.

Simon
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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RE: Copyright opinions

2009-12-07T09:38:39Z

> From: mjr@...
> To: fsuk-manchester@...
> Subject: Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Copyright opinions
> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:34:42 +0000
>
> Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote: [...]
> > If you are a developer, base your pricing on actually developing the
> > software, not on developing something once and expecting to sell it lots
> > of times to make your money back, which usually involves restricting
> > users’ freedoms in order to prevent them from using or modifying the
> > software they have and possibly locking them in so that developers can
> > monopolize further development of it.
>
> This is easier written than done. We try, but quite apart from the
> marketing something so different, it's getting gradually harder as
> protectionist laws further entrench the
> make-it-once/restrict-it/sell-it-lots model of new enclosures and
> exploitation, empowering copyright thugs to scare FOSS users.
>
> > Other ways are to offer services around your software. Support it,
> > maintain it, and charge for these efforts. Sell printed manuals, or
> > even traditional boxed copies (but when you do that, charge for the
> > production, with a little profit, not the development - there was
> > little, if any, development effort into the reproduction).
>
> The problem with that is that it requires developers to do less
> development and more maintenance and support (sometimes healthy!),
> manual-printing and box-arranging. It's not really good to have
> developers doing manual printing and boxing, so this means bringing
> non-developers into the software development company and diluting its
> mission. Or you could sign with a manual publisher. Either way, just
> as few manual producers understand free software development economics
> as understand free manual economics and it can lead to the manual
> and boxes effort corrupting the software development effort.
>
> Two other observaions on that:
>
> 1. many small-audience manuals have a non-trivial amount of
> development effort embodied in each copy produced, so the fairer way
> is to share the development cost across the low end sales estimate;
>
> 2. is it any more ethical to profiteer from manual production than
> software production?

Some great observations,

I think writing a manual and then forbidding derivatives is definitely comparable to writing software and forbidding derivatives. Overall I suspect that doing so with a manual is less harmful to society and community because a manual can be reproduced with far less effort than some complex software. I also suspect that doing this sort of thing with a manual is less damaging than forbidding works similar to one's fiction (a la Ms Rowling) because similar fiction can be (and has been) independently produced and then banned. There are only so many universal stories and themes to humanity and the essence of a fiction is far more wooly than the essence of a manual. Unless you are imitating a manual word-for-word I think it would be impossible to claim in court that your rival's manual is an unlicensed derivative and not just a different manual.

I am aware that I don't come down on either side here..

Luke

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[Fwd: [YLUG] LinuxChix North, Old Broadcasting House, Leeds, 7th December, 19:00]

2009-12-07T06:39:27Z

Just noticed this... It appears to be today..

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [YLUG] LinuxChix North, Old Broadcasting House, Leeds, 7th
December, 19:00
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:03:02 +0000
From: Zoe Stephenson <zrs1@...>
Reply-To: york@...
To: york@...

Hi,
Some list members may be interested in attending the very first
LinuxChix North meeting in Leeds on Monday 7th December, 19:00, at
Old Broadcasting House. Further details are available at:

http://www.linuxchixnorth.org.uk/

which notes "LinuxChix is a community for women who like Linux and Free
Software, and for women and men who want to support women in computing."
Hope to see some of you there - please get in touch if you want to
coordinate some travel arrangements.

--
-- zoe

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-07T05:34:42Z

Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote: [...]
> If you are a developer, base your pricing on actually developing the
> software, not on developing something once and expecting to sell it lots
> of times to make your money back, which usually involves restricting
> users’ freedoms in order to prevent them from using or modifying the
> software they have and possibly locking them in so that developers can
> monopolize further development of it.

This is easier written than done. We try, but quite apart from the
marketing something so different, it's getting gradually harder as
protectionist laws further entrench the
make-it-once/restrict-it/sell-it-lots model of new enclosures and
exploitation, empowering copyright thugs to scare FOSS users.

> Other ways are to offer services around your software. Support it,
> maintain it, and charge for these efforts. Sell printed manuals, or
> even traditional boxed copies (but when you do that, charge for the
> production, with a little profit, not the development - there was
> little, if any, development effort into the reproduction).

The problem with that is that it requires developers to do less
development and more maintenance and support (sometimes healthy!),
manual-printing and box-arranging. It's not really good to have
developers doing manual printing and boxing, so this means bringing
non-developers into the software development company and diluting its
mission. Or you could sign with a manual publisher. Either way, just
as few manual producers understand free software development economics
as understand free manual economics and it can lead to the manual
and boxes effort corrupting the software development effort.

Two other observaions on that:

1. many small-audience manuals have a non-trivial amount of
development effort embodied in each copy produced, so the fairer way
is to share the development cost across the low end sales estimate;

2. is it any more ethical to profiteer from manual production than
software production?

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-06T23:53:33Z

---- Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:04:53AM +0000, roy.evison@... wrote:
> > I would tend to agree but what two parties set up is between them
> > unless published under particular auspices. Yes software will have a
> > useful, or sellable, life-span but setting parameters may not be
> > useful.If you are a free-lance developer how do you guarantee your
> > income?
>
> This question always comes up, and the answer is to do what you do best
> and sell that: Develop, and charge people for your development effort.
>
> Stallman’s opinion appears to be a very staunch find another way to make
> money that doesn’t involve subjugating users, but I find that when you
> put it that way developers may become upset and defensive, and not very
> willing to listen to reason. I’m not primarily a developer, but I feel
> some of that too.
>
> If you are a developer, base your pricing on actually developing the
> software, not on developing something once and expecting to sell it lots
> of times to make your money back, which usually involves restricting
> users’ freedoms in order to prevent them from using or modifying the
> software they have and possibly locking them in so that developers can
> monopolize further development of it.
>
> Other ways are to offer services around your software. Support it,
> maintain it, and charge for these efforts. Sell printed manuals, or
> even traditional boxed copies (but when you do that, charge for the
> production, with a little profit, not the development - there was
> little, if any, development effort into the reproduction).
>
> Simon
> --Simon,

I know this subject gets an emotional response from all sides and friends cannot even see the difference from a tiered pricing policy and restricted software which means any agreed legislation across counties would be difficult. Perhaps the answer is to have a coordinated copyright law that is settlable in any country, or at least set reasonable limits on it, e.g., why is it part of an estate for inheritance?
Roy.
> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
> simple system that works.—John Gall

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Administrative and Social Meeting - 14th December

2009-12-06T07:52:52Z

The December administrative meeting will be on the second Monday of the
month at the usual time and place:

* Date: Monday, 14th December
* Time: 19:00
* Location: The Waterhouse

The meeting is open to everyone and normally lasts about an hour and an
half. At the meeting we review what we've done, assess where we are and
plan what to do. This is your opportunity to get involved. We welcome
new people wanting to help the group achieve its goals.

We stay around for a social meet up afterwards, so it’s a good
opportunity to meet up with people and have a chat.

Minutes from last meeting which was held on 9th November are at
http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2009-11-09/Minutes

Draft Agenda for this meeting is at
http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2009-12-14

If you have any thing you’d like included in the Agenda please contact us.

Regards,
Mike
MFS Chair

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-05T06:25:42Z

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:04:53AM +0000, roy.evison@... wrote:
> I would tend to agree but what two parties set up is between them
> unless published under particular auspices. Yes software will have a
> useful, or sellable, life-span but setting parameters may not be
> useful.If you are a free-lance developer how do you guarantee your
> income?

This question always comes up, and the answer is to do what you do best
and sell that: Develop, and charge people for your development effort.

Stallman’s opinion appears to be a very staunch find another way to make
money that doesn’t involve subjugating users, but I find that when you
put it that way developers may become upset and defensive, and not very
willing to listen to reason. I’m not primarily a developer, but I feel
some of that too.

If you are a developer, base your pricing on actually developing the
software, not on developing something once and expecting to sell it lots
of times to make your money back, which usually involves restricting
users’ freedoms in order to prevent them from using or modifying the
software they have and possibly locking them in so that developers can
monopolize further development of it.

Other ways are to offer services around your software. Support it,
maintain it, and charge for these efforts. Sell printed manuals, or
even traditional boxed copies (but when you do that, charge for the
production, with a little profit, not the development - there was
little, if any, development effort into the reproduction).

Simon
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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Re: Black Screen of Death!!

2009-12-05T05:53:01Z

Pater Mann wrote:
[snip]
> I agree that it could be seen as a Windows
> vulnerability that by denying access to a particular key in the
> registry you can prevent a user from getting to the desktop but
> Unix/Linux systems have a similar "vulnerability". I accidentally
> renamed my home directory once and that prevented me logging in as
> that user at all - denying access to the home directory would have the
> same effect.

Although desktops like GNOME and KDE may not work in this case you can
switch to a virtual terminal (Ctrl-Alt-F1) and login using the 'login'
program. It will complain if it can't find your home directory but will
still log you in. Then you can fix the home directory problem.

> Even worse, just imagine the chaos it would cause if all
> access was denied to the /etc directory!

If you didn't have a root login session at the time then you'd most
likely have to reboot and do something like put init=/bin/sh in the
kernel options or boot from a CD/stick (like a Live CD) with tools to
repair it.

> Although Unix/Linux-based systems are inherently more secure than
> Windows (and are easier to harden), people tend to forget that
> rootkits were originally created for Unix(-like) systems (hence the
> name "rootkit") and have only been created for Windows relatively
> recently so attention to security is still important whatever the
> operating system.

I agree that attention to security is important whatever the OS. People
say that "Linux is more secure" and often do so to promote "Linux"[1].
While the sentiment is welcome, such a simple statement about security
is not meaningful because the security of a system is so highly
dependant on its administrators, users and uses.

If people can do one extra security measure that they aren't doing
currently, then it should be to keep up to date with the (security)
updates for their system. There are many security issues found with free
software which are then quickly fixed but you need to make sure you are
installing those fixes.

Regards,
Mike.

[1] http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html

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Re: Free Software Font Links & Thank you!

2009-12-05T04:06:54Z

I've added some links that were posted to the Free Software Business
mailing list <http://www.crynwr.com/fsb/"> to the talk's wiki page[1]
including
http://www.robmyers.org/wiki/index.php/How_To_Get_Paid_For_Copyleft_Art

Regards,
Mike.

[1] http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2008-09-16

Michael Dorrington wrote:

> Hi Dave
>
> It was over a year ago that you did your talk but I still remember it.
> The Inkscape + Spiro video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OaLZuFZxdk>
> was amazing.
>
> I've put the links (with a little clean up) on the wiki page for your
> talk. http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/Manchester/2008-09-16
>
> Regards,
> Mike.
> MFS Chair.
>
> Dave Crossland wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Just thought I'd drop you a line to say thanks for inviting me to
>> speak last night, it was great to meet people afterwards too and I
>> hope my evo-auty-personality-psychology nonsense at the pub wasn't too
>> obnoxious ;-)
>>
>> Here are the links from my slides as promised:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=spiro+inkscape
>> www.inkscape.net
>> fontforge.sf.net
>> levien.com/spiro/
>> www.openfontlibrary.org
>> www.tinkerhouse.net/shoebot
>> www.tinkerhouse.net/lettersoup
>> www.pledgebank.com
>> www.tug.org/donate.html
>>
>

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Re: Black Screen of Death!!

2009-12-05T02:23:48Z

Clarke Computers wrote:
> Hopefully this will bring Gnu/Linux into a more favourable light.

As I am the one that friends and family turn to when they need help
sorting out problems on their PCs, I also welcome anything that
promotes alternatives to Windows. However, I should point out that
that, in this case, Microsoft are not responsible for the problem -
ironically, it was actually caused by a piece of malware that Prevx
were investigating, not the Windows updates as claimed by Prevx (they
have since apologised). I agree that it could be seen as a Windows
vulnerability that by denying access to a particular key in the
registry you can prevent a user from getting to the desktop but
Unix/Linux systems have a similar "vulnerability". I accidentally
renamed my home directory once and that prevented me logging in as
that user at all - denying access to the home directory would have the
same effect. Even worse, just imagine the chaos it would cause if all
access was denied to the /etc directory!

Although Unix/Linux-based systems are inherently more secure than
Windows (and are easier to harden), people tend to forget that
rootkits were originally created for Unix(-like) systems (hence the
name "rootkit") and have only been created for Windows relatively
recently so attention to security is still important whatever the
operating system.

patermann

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-01T22:04:53Z

I would tend to agree but what two parties set up is between them unless published under particular auspices. Yes software will have a useful, or sellable, life-span but setting parameters may not be useful.If you are a free-lance developer how do you guarantee your income?

Roy.
---- Simon Ward <simon@...> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 08:55:57PM +0000, Luke Taylor wrote:
> > Naturally a copyright of (say) 10 years would mean that Linux 2.0.37
> > and GCC 2.95.2 and any other free software published more than 10
> > years ago would have their copylefts expire.
>
> Fair does, it’s in the commons. It only works if all software is
> subject to the same rules though.
>
> > RMS suggests that this would be acceptable if proprietary software had
> > to surrender their source if the distribution was more than 10 years
> > old.
>
> Whatever the copyright term is, I believe that the source should be
> available afterwards.
>
> Copyright allows exclusive right for copying and redistribution of works
> for a period of time. After that the work is in the public domain for
> others to reuse and build upon. Software, especially compiled, becomes
> pretty much useless unless you have the source code to work with, so
> when the copyright term ends, software may become inaccessible.
>
> > 1) Have I understood how this works correctly? Would everything based
> > on Linux 2.0.37 (ie. 2.6.31-15 ) become effectively BSD's or just the
> > older incarnation?
>
> Not even BSD license variants: There’s no requirement to keep the
> license, or copyright notices with a work that’s out of copyright.
>
> > 2) Would you oppose a law to reduce all copyright to 15 years (with no
> > clauses forcing proprietary software to surrender the source code)?
>
> I would welcome it. Out of copyright is almost free. The 15 years of
> copyright allows reciprocal freedom to be enforced, and is more than
> enough time for free works to gain and keep hold.
>
> > Yes it would harm free software a bit
>
> Out of copyright software is free software. As long as all software is
> subject to the same rules, I think it sort of balances out: Proprietary
> software becomes free sooner, already free software loses requirements
> for reciprocating freedoms sooner. This is much better if source code
> is available, but if not, software can be reverse engineered.
>
> > (Or a lot? I honestly don't know how useful a 15 year old kernel would
> > be to a modern proprietary developer) but think how much culture would
> > be freed! Novels/music/plays/art etc.
>
> I think different types of works should be subject to different
> copyright terms.
>
> Software changes or loses value so rapidly that a short copyright term
> (5 years) would benefit all, and at the same time authors will still be
> able to gain from the exclusive copyright. The incentive to create is
> still there.
>
> If you reduce the copyright for written works to the same short term,
> there may be not enough incentive for many to create them.
>
> I’d like works to be ultimately free, but somewhere there is a sweet
> spot between the amount of good quality works produced and the copyright
> term: This is the copyright balance.
>
> > 3) If your answer to (2) is no, what about 25 years? How many years would you support?
>
> Any reduction is better than none. Baby steps.
>
> If there is an easy and good way to define a major change to software (I
> don’t think changes to SLoC (source lines of code) would be a good
> measure) I think a very short copyright term, say one or two years,
> would be sufficient, with major developments on top of existing software
> being afforded a similar short (or shorter) copyright term.
>
> That way, copyright might be used as an incentive not just to create
> software, but enhance it too. This instead of being offered a larger
> incentive to reinvent the wheel each time.
>
> Simon
> --
> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
> simple system that works.—John Gall

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Re: Copyright opinions

2009-12-01T14:07:20Z

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 08:55:57PM +0000, Luke Taylor wrote:
> Naturally a copyright of (say) 10 years would mean that Linux 2.0.37
> and GCC 2.95.2 and any other free software published more than 10
> years ago would have their copylefts expire.

Fair does, it’s in the commons. It only works if all software is
subject to the same rules though.

> RMS suggests that this would be acceptable if proprietary software had
> to surrender their source if the distribution was more than 10 years
> old.

Whatever the copyright term is, I believe that the source should be
available afterwards.

Copyright allows exclusive right for copying and redistribution of works
for a period of time. After that the work is in the public domain for
others to reuse and build upon. Software, especially compiled, becomes
pretty much useless unless you have the source code to work with, so
when the copyright term ends, software may become inaccessible.

> 1) Have I understood how this works correctly? Would everything based
> on Linux 2.0.37 (ie. 2.6.31-15 ) become effectively BSD's or just the
> older incarnation?

Not even BSD license variants: There’s no requirement to keep the
license, or copyright notices with a work that’s out of copyright.

> 2) Would you oppose a law to reduce all copyright to 15 years (with no
> clauses forcing proprietary software to surrender the source code)?

I would welcome it. Out of copyright is almost free. The 15 years of
copyright allows reciprocal freedom to be enforced, and is more than
enough time for free works to gain and keep hold.

> Yes it would harm free software a bit

Out of copyright software is free software. As long as all software is
subject to the same rules, I think it sort of balances out: Proprietary
software becomes free sooner, already free software loses requirements
for reciprocating freedoms sooner. This is much better if source code
is available, but if not, software can be reverse engineered.

> (Or a lot? I honestly don't know how useful a 15 year old kernel would
> be to a modern proprietary developer) but think how much culture would
> be freed! Novels/music/plays/art etc.

I think different types of works should be subject to different
copyright terms.

Software changes or loses value so rapidly that a short copyright term
(5 years) would benefit all, and at the same time authors will still be
able to gain from the exclusive copyright. The incentive to create is
still there.

If you reduce the copyright for written works to the same short term,
there may be not enough incentive for many to create them.

I’d like works to be ultimately free, but somewhere there is a sweet
spot between the amount of good quality works produced and the copyright
term: This is the copyright balance.

> 3) If your answer to (2) is no, what about 25 years? How many years would you support?

Any reduction is better than none. Baby steps.

If there is an easy and good way to define a major change to software (I
don’t think changes to SLoC (source lines of code) would be a good
measure) I think a very short copyright term, say one or two years,
would be sufficient, with major developments on top of existing software
being afforded a similar short (or shorter) copyright term.

That way, copyright might be used as an incentive not just to create
software, but enhance it too. This instead of being offered a larger
incentive to reinvent the wheel each time.

Simon
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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Black Screen of Death!!

2009-12-01T14:00:27Z

Hi Group,

Any one feeling sympathetic - for the users that is, some of the funnies you
can read here, I love seeing Windoze getting slagged off:-

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/12/01/1725249/Microsoft-Investigates-Windows-7-Black-Screen-of-Death

Seems this problem has been lurking around for some time with all the
variations of Windows and something to do with the annoyance called the
registry.

Hopefully this will bring Gnu/Linux into a more favourable light.

regards,

adrian.

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