Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
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Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by Doug Wilcox
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It's been a LONG time since I've posted.
I was thrilled when my wife presented me with an NXT for our anniversary, and have really enjoyed its capabilities. We migrated our MindStorms@Work group to use the NXT, and dug into NXT-G (since we already knew NQC). At first glance, it appeared that the NXT-G was wonderful ... much more flexible and useful than the original Lego GUI, while still being relatively easy to use. My primary interest was in determining whether it would be easier to teach my kids NXT-G or NXC. However, after repeatedly wrestling with "quirks" in NXT-G, I am ready to throw in the towel. For example, see this image http://www.wilcoxfamily.net/csort0511bd.jpg and the following description: The gumball-sorter program on which my co-worker and I are working uses a switch statement with five possibilities. The switch statement is within a loop, which should exit if a counter monitoring "empty" attempts hits 5. Regardless of what I do, I can never get the extreme right side of the switch block to display, and can never get the data wire between the counter evaluator block and the loop condition to connect in a way that seems to do the right thing. Add to this nuisances like "dead" wires being left onscreen, very weird things happened when cutting and pasting, problems with selection highlighting, etc., and you can see why I begin to wonder whether the software is _really_ that bad or if I am going crazy. What experiences have you all had? (RCX version of of the candy sorter is BLOGged here: http://mindstormsatwork.blogspot.com/ , while pictures of both RCX and NXT versions - very different designs - are here: http://picasaweb.google.com/MindStormsAtWork .) Thanks. --Doug Wilcox WordSmith Digital Document Services 329 Nowell Street Nashua, NH 03060-4453 *** *** 603-886-5225 home phone http://www.wordsmithdigital.com ICQ#: 24868783 AIM: WebMeister Doug Y!: WebMeisterDoug MSM: WebMeister Doug - Web design - Desktop Publishing - Design - Computer/Software Consulting (Technical Wizardry) - Computer Demons Exorcised - Officially Registered in Dogbert's New Ruling Class |
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RE: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by Dick Swan
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There's a couple of descriptions of alternative programming environments on
the web that you might want to look at. Check out the following: http://www.teamhassenplug.org/NXT/NXTSoftware.html or http://www.botmag.com/articles/10-31-07_NXT.shtml I wrote the second item which was published in Robot magazine. I'm one of the authors of ROBOTC. There's a nice review of ROBOTC on the WIRED magazine site at http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/2007/11/the-best-progra.html. This article is titled "The Best Programming Language for Lego Mindstorms, Hands Down". ROBOTC is inexpensive commercial software available directly from LEGO Education or via download from the Robotics Academy at Carnegie-Mellon University at www.robotc.net. A full featured 30-day evaluation copy can be downloaded. There are a number of open source programming alternatives that are described in the first two references. |
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Re: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by Steve Hassenplug
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> Hassenplug's comparison page, for the record, was invaluable: http://www.teamhassenplug.org/NXT/NXTSoftware.html .)
Thanks. That's why it's there. I can't tell you which one to use, but hopefully you've been able to mark a few off your list. > Thanks for the advice. Do any of you have practical experience with the differences between NXC and RobotC? I've been using RobotC, because I'm doing stuff with Bluetooth that's simply not possible with the standard firmware (and NXC) Steve |
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Re: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by Brian Davis-3
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In lugnet.robotics, "Doug Wilcox" wrote:
> I was thrilled when my wife presented me with an NXT for > our anniversary... Please let your wife know that she has *really* cool tastes in anniversary gifts :). > At first glance, it appeared that the NXT-G was > wonderful... I still like it quite a bit, but it seems among adults I'm a minority (or an aberration... I've been called worse). I agree that the bugs in the IDE in particular can drive you crazy, and it takes me longer to do some things graphically than I could in a text editor. Like you, if I compare NXT-G to something like RIS I shudder at the second - NXT-G is a quantum step forward, but still behind in some ways for power users. > My primary interest was in determining whether it > would be easier to teach my kids NXT-G or NXC. That depends. Are you trying to teach your kids how to think in C or a C-like language, or are you trying to teach them how to acquire new skills? For the former, I'd suggest RobotC (for a number of reasons, the main downsides being cost and that it's not open platform). I'd probably be using RobotC myself if it was available on a Mac (closer to C, and more importantly for me more powerful and *much* faster than other options based on the stock firmware). > For example, see this image... What's happened there is that sequence beams within the multi-state Switch have become corrupted. The best way I know to fix that is to rip out the block sequences within each state of the Switch (saving them somewhere else on the worksheet for later), and then tearing out the corrupted Switch, replacing it with a new one, and then selecting and dragging the sequences back into the proper cases of the Switch. I agree, this isn't at all ideal. I'm not sure why that happens (or why it doesn't seem to happen to me), but it *is* very annoying. Note that here I suspect part of the problem is you are trying to use a Switch when there's little reason. For instance, for each case you need to move the "B" motor a different distance, correct? It might be far better to calculate (or even use a simple look-up table) to determine those distance, and then *wire* the result into the Motor B blocks. This sort of thing (working with the strengths of NXT-G, instead of forcing on its weaknesses) is one of the things I must admit I really like - it's a thinking puzzle for me (and for those of you who think that's not a part of the MINDSTORMS product, consider that we all keep trying to build industrial and innovative autonomous robots... with a childs toy :) ). -- Brian "Wanted: RobotC for OSX" Davis |
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Re: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by Doug Wilcox
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This was about as cool as the year she gave me the 3,104-piece Lego Star
Destroyer. (Especially since, when people see it in my cube, they usually remark, "My wife/girlfriend _won't_ let me get this.) Nichelle laughed at your remark. --Doug Wilcox ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davis" <brdavis@...> To: <lego-robotics@...> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 16:37 Subject: Re: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1 > In lugnet.robotics, "Doug Wilcox" wrote: > >> I was thrilled when my wife presented me with an NXT for >> our anniversary... > > Please let your wife know that she has *really* cool tastes in anniversary > gifts > :). > >> At first glance, it appeared that the NXT-G was >> wonderful... > > I still like it quite a bit, but it seems among adults I'm a minority (or > an > aberration... I've been called worse). I agree that the bugs in the IDE in > particular can drive you crazy, and it takes me longer to do some things > graphically than I could in a text editor. Like you, if I compare NXT-G to > something like RIS I shudder at the second - NXT-G is a quantum step > forward, > but still behind in some ways for power users. > >> My primary interest was in determining whether it >> would be easier to teach my kids NXT-G or NXC. > > That depends. Are you trying to teach your kids how to think in C or a > C-like > language, or are you trying to teach them how to acquire new skills? For > the > former, I'd suggest RobotC (for a number of reasons, the main downsides > being > cost and that it's not open platform). I'd probably be using RobotC myself > if it > was available on a Mac (closer to C, and more importantly for me more > powerful > and *much* faster than other options based on the stock firmware). > >> For example, see this image... > > What's happened there is that sequence beams within the multi-state Switch > have > become corrupted. The best way I know to fix that is to rip out the block > sequences within each state of the Switch (saving them somewhere else on > the > worksheet for later), and then tearing out the corrupted Switch, replacing > it > with a new one, and then selecting and dragging the sequences back into > the > proper cases of the Switch. I agree, this isn't at all ideal. I'm not sure > why > that happens (or why it doesn't seem to happen to me), but it *is* very > annoying. > > Note that here I suspect part of the problem is you are trying to use a > Switch > when there's little reason. For instance, for each case you need to move > the "B" > motor a different distance, correct? It might be far better to calculate > (or > even use a simple look-up table) to determine those distance, and then > *wire* > the result into the Motor B blocks. This sort of thing (working with the > strengths of NXT-G, instead of forcing on its weaknesses) is one of the > things I > must admit I really like - it's a thinking puzzle for me (and for those of > you > who think that's not a part of the MINDSTORMS product, consider that we > all keep > trying to build industrial and innovative autonomous robots... with a > childs toy > :) ). > > -- > Brian "Wanted: RobotC for OSX" Davis |
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Re: Frustration with NXT-G 1.1
by gil11
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Doug,
I share your frustration very much. as a child and a teenager i was a Lego Technic freak. In the last year i wanted to go back to my "roots" of enjoyment, and decided to buy the mindstorms NXT kit as a starter, because it seemed to me a cool robotics kit and the idea of GUI flowchart programing appealed to me (i'm kind of a visual-graphical guy who prefer symbols over text. in my work as a CAD modeller i work with SolidWorks which uses heavily graphic symbols, GUI and etc..) and because i was certain that a well known and established firm like Lego would not supply a buggy and messy software with it. - boy was i mistaken!!! NXT-G 1.1 is one of the most buggiest software i've stumbled upon in the recent years: moving a block which has data wires connected to it, wont move the data wire ends with it. sometimes putting a legitimate block in a legitimate sequance beam position will create an unjustified error. somtimes moving or changing one block in a loop will cause the loop to partialy close on it, and hiding important and functional blocks, which will render from now on to uneditable. it's GUI is also not so super by design: no zoom in/out on the program, dragging a block out of viewport but inside the program is very slow and quircky, to switch from pan to select it is necessery to select a button above viewport instead of using the wo mouse keys..............i can continue on and on with the quircks and disadvantages. Those bugs are in the software for a long time, and have been reported to Lego, but Lego didn't release any updates or hotfixes to those people who are stucked with the 1.1 version. from my opinion this not how a well known and respected firm should act!! something in their buissness code is very wrong. I wish there was a way to submit a petition to Lego by all its frustrated customers. thanks, Gil ALsberg P.O. Box 40029 Mevasseret Zion 90805 Israel
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