Fw: A little question about DSP performance
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Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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I'm not talking about a change of phase over time, but the difference between 2 tones in which the only difference is the phase of one of their harmonics. I don't know matlab btw. But I'll attach a wav file (can't compress since it would mess with the phases). 1. normal saw 2. saw with harmonic phases progressively wrapping 3x around from fundamental to the last one (sounds the same) 3. saw with only the 20th (if I remember) harmonic's phase shifted by half (you can hear that specific harmonic through) (well the attachment isn't accepted but you can try it easily) > > >> >> On Oct 1, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >> >>> no I'm saying that all that matters is the abruptness of the change. >> >> well, we're not disagreeing about that either. a sudden change of >> phase is either a click (if the change is instantaneous), or a blip >> or a glitch or a bump or something like that. sure we hear that. >> >> but, in a bandlimited sawtooth, it is *not* the abrupt "flyback" (a >> term borrowed from TV technology) of the sawtooth that we hear >> specifically. you can mess up the phases so there is no abrupt >> flyback and it sounds the same (unless you run it through a non- >> linear process). >> >>> If you slowly shift each harmonic, you can end up with a big phase >>> difference between the first & the last harmonic, it will still >>> sound the >>> same. >>> >>> But if you change one phase & not neighbor ones, it will sound >>> different, >> >> i disagree. the MATLAB code i posted can be easily modified so that >> only one phase is "detuned". would you try that out? >> >>> you will hear that specific harmonic through the saw. >>> >>> I'd compare this to audible ringing when you abruptly filter >>> something. >>> >> >> if you're talking about a discontinuity, that is not what i am >> talking about. i am questioning if you can hear the difference >> between waveforms when the amplitudes of the harmonics remain the >> same, but the phases change. and i am questioning if it makes any >> difference at all if you linearly interpolate (or any other form of >> LTI interplation) between points. >> >>> >>> I can post audio files but it's pretty easy to test in an additive >>> synth. >> >> can you post a MATLAB/Octave file that generates the waveforms and >> shows explicitly what the change is? >> >> -- >> >> r b-j rbj@... >> >> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." >> >> >> >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, >> dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 > 06:34:00 > -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by robert bristow-johnson
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On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > I'm not talking about a change of phase over time, but the difference > between 2 tones in which the only difference is the phase of one of > their > harmonics. good, then we're talking about the same thing. > I don't know matlab btw. But I'll attach a wav file (can't > compress since > it > would mess with the phases). zipping it wouldn't, but it also wouldn't compress it a lot. > 1. normal saw > 2. saw with harmonic phases progressively wrapping 3x around from > fundamental to the last one (sounds the same) > 3. saw with only the 20th (if I remember) harmonic's phase shifted > by half > (you can hear that specific harmonic through) so, you're saying that if we detune the 20th harmonic just a little, so that it is 3 cycles ahead or behind, in relation to where it would have been if we didn't detune it at all, at the end of a long sound file of a bandlimited saw. is that right? i don't expect it to be audible, but i will not go and modify the matlab file and find out. maybe my clay ears ain't golden enough to hear it, and it's me, not you. but i am skeptical that it's audible. -- r b-j rbj@... "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by robert bristow-johnson
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On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:10 PM, robert bristow-johnson wrote: >> 1. normal saw >> 2. saw with harmonic phases progressively wrapping 3x around from >> fundamental to the last one (sounds the same) >> 3. saw with only the 20th (if I remember) harmonic's phase shifted >> by half >> (you can hear that specific harmonic through) > > so, you're saying that if we detune the 20th harmonic just a little, > so that it is 3 cycles ahead or behind, in relation to where it would > have been if we didn't detune it at all, at the end of a long sound > file of a bandlimited saw. is that right? > > i don't expect it to be audible, but i will not go and modify the > matlab file and find out. i meant to say that i *will* go modify the matlab file to find out. pesky words with their pesky meanings. it's like the historic "wicked bible" that has "Thou shalt commit adultery." how the insertion or removal of a single word can change the meaning of things. -- r b-j rbj@... "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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yes This is why I chose to increment phases using double float accuracy in my additive synth, because slight accumulation errors would become really obvious over time. > so, you're saying that if we detune the 20th harmonic just a little, > so that it is 3 cycles ahead or behind, in relation to where it would > have been if we didn't detune it at all, at the end of a long sound > file of a bandlimited saw. is that right? > > i don't expect it to be audible, but i will not go and modify the > matlab file and find out. maybe my clay ears ain't golden enough to > hear it, and it's me, not you. but i am skeptical that it's audible. > > -- > > r b-j rbj@... > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by robert bristow-johnson
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On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >> so, you're saying that if we detune the 20th harmonic just a little, >> so that it is 3 cycles ahead or behind, in relation to where it would >> have been if we didn't detune it at all, at the end of a long sound >> file of a bandlimited saw. is that right? > > yes > > This is why I chose to increment phases using double float accuracy > in my > additive synth, because slight accumulation errors would become really > obvious over time. MATLAB does everything in double. either way i would not expect that to be an issue of audibility. > >> i don't expect it to be audible, but i will [..] go and modify the >> matlab file and find out. maybe my clay ears ain't golden enough to >> hear it, and it's me, not you. but i am skeptical that it's audible. well, at least we know we are talking about the same experiment. i think we differ on the outcome expected. -- r b-j rbj@... "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though.
I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 saws, when you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. (but the wav file will eventually be accepted & posted) > On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > > >>> so, you're saying that if we detune the 20th harmonic just a little, >>> so that it is 3 cycles ahead or behind, in relation to where it would >>> have been if we didn't detune it at all, at the end of a long sound >>> file of a bandlimited saw. is that right? >> >> yes >> >> This is why I chose to increment phases using double float accuracy >> in my >> additive synth, because slight accumulation errors would become really >> obvious over time. > > MATLAB does everything in double. either way i would not expect that > to be an issue of audibility. > >> >>> i don't expect it to be audible, but i will [..] go and modify the >>> matlab file and find out. maybe my clay ears ain't golden enough to >>> hear it, and it's me, not you. but i am skeptical that it's audible. > > > > well, at least we know we are talking about the same experiment. i > think we differ on the outcome expected. > > > -- > > r b-j rbj@... > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by robert bristow-johnson
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On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. > I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 > saws, when > you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. > because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is audible. Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same thing. -- r b-j rbj@... "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've grown
enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always broken. > On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > >> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. >> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >> saws, when >> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >> > > because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab > file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to > what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is > a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can > hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is > audible. > > Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's > a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and > human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same > thing. > > > -- > > r b-j rbj@... > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by douglas repetto-2
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Didier, send me the file privately and I can post it on the website for you. Didier Dambrin wrote: > I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've grown > enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. > > I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always broken. > > > > >> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >> >>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. >>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >>> saws, when >>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >>> >> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab >> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to >> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is >> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can >> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is >> audible. >> >> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's >> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and >> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same >> thing. >> >> >> -- >> >> r b-j rbj@... >> >> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." >> >> >> >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, >> dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 > 06:34:00 > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > -- ............................................... http://artbots.org .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Victor Lazzarini
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If you are a programmer, you'd probably prefer to use python with
scipy, numpy and matplotlib. Far more elegant to write and read... IMHO Victor On 1 Oct 2009, at 18:56, Didier Dambrin wrote: > I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and > I've grown > enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. > > I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always > broken. > > > > >> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >> >>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', >>> though. >>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >>> saws, when >>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >>> >> >> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab >> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to >> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is >> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can >> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is >> audible. >> >> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's >> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and >> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same >> thing. >> >> >> -- >> >> r b-j rbj@... >> >> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." >> >> >> >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book >> reviews, >> dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: > 10/01/09 > 06:34:00 > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book > reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by douglas repetto-2
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It's here: http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav douglas repetto wrote: > Didier, send me the file privately and I can post it on the website for you. > > Didier Dambrin wrote: >> I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've grown >> enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. >> >> I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always broken. >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >>> >>>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. >>>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >>>> saws, when >>>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >>>> >>> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab >>> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to >>> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is >>> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can >>> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is >>> audible. >>> >>> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's >>> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and >>> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same >>> thing. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> r b-j rbj@... >>> >>> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >>> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, >>> dsp links >>> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >>> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 >> 06:34:00 >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp >> > -- ............................................... http://artbots.org .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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Douglas put it here for me http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav 1. normal saw 2. saw with harmonic phases progressively wrapping 3x from fundamental to the last one (sounds the same) 3. saw with only the 20th (if I remember) harmonic's phase shifted by half (you can hear that specific harmonic through) so if you were detuning that harmonic instead of phase shifting it, it'd shine through, but with amplitude modulation > > On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > >> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. >> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >> saws, when >> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >> > > because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab > file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to > what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is > a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can > hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is > audible. > > Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's > a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and > human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same > thing. > > > -- > > r b-j rbj@... > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Andy Farnell
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Thanks Doug, Didier, I honestly can't hear the difference unless I slow it _right_ down. I am 40 this week and noticing ears aren't what they once were. It's been a fascinating discussion in this thread btw. Guess we just have to mark some of these things down to subjective experience. On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:48:04 -0400 douglas repetto <douglas@...> wrote: > > It's here: > > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav > > > > douglas repetto wrote: > > Didier, send me the file privately and I can post it on the website for you. > > > > Didier Dambrin wrote: > >> I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've grown > >> enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. > >> > >> I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always broken. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > >>> > >>>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', though. > >>>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 > >>>> saws, when > >>>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. > >>>> > >>> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab > >>> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to > >>> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is > >>> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can > >>> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is > >>> audible. > >>> > >>> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's > >>> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and > >>> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same > >>> thing. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> r b-j rbj@... > >>> > >>> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > >>> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > >>> dsp links > >>> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >>> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 > >> 06:34:00 > >> > >> -- > >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > >> > > > > -- > ............................................... http://artbots.org > .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org > .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism > ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by douglas repetto-2
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I hear something different in the 3rd example. It sounds like an extra sine tone has been added at the very top of the spectrum. It's very subtle, and goes away if I have my head in the wrong orientation. Scott Gravenhorst wrote: > A discussion list for music-related DSP <music-dsp@...> wrote: >> >> Thanks Doug, >> >> Didier, I honestly can't hear the difference >> unless I slow it _right_ down. I am 40 this >> week and noticing ears aren't what they once were. >> >> It's been a fascinating discussion in this thread btw. >> Guess we just have to mark some of these things down >> to subjective experience. > > I cannot hear a difference either. > > > -- ScottG > ________________________________________________________________________ > -- Scott Gravenhorst > -- FPGA MIDI Synthesizer Information: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FPGA_synth/ > -- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/fatman/ > -- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/ > -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line. > -- ............................................... http://artbots.org .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by contact-68
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> Douglas put it here for me
> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav > > 1. normal saw > 2. saw with harmonic phases progressively wrapping 3x from > fundamental to the last one (sounds the same) > 3. saw with only the 20th (if I remember) harmonic's phase shifted by half > (you can hear that specific harmonic through) > > > so if you were detuning that harmonic instead of phase shifting it, it'd > shine through, but with amplitude modulation Sometimes I can't hear it, especially through speakers, that'll be that ear shape/room shape/distance phase mangling thing - headphones did the trick. Visually and audibly, the third saw seems to have an additional sine wave at about 2.5Khz, and they all have differently positioned upper and lower peaks. Dave. -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Batuhan Bozkurt
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I was just following this interesting discussion, the standing out hi
freq detuned overtone is clearly audible here (the third tone), I'm pretty sure I'd notice it right away if I didn't know about it. (I'm 25) Batuhan Bozkurt /* http://www.earslap.com */ On Oct 2, 2009, at 6:20 PM, douglas repetto wrote: > > I hear something different in the 3rd example. It sounds like an extra > sine tone has been added at the very top of the spectrum. It's very > subtle, and goes away if I have my head in the wrong orientation. > > > > Scott Gravenhorst wrote: >> A discussion list for music-related DSP <music- >> dsp@...> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Doug, >>> >>> Didier, I honestly can't hear the difference >>> unless I slow it _right_ down. I am 40 this >>> week and noticing ears aren't what they once were. >>> >>> It's been a fascinating discussion in this thread btw. >>> Guess we just have to mark some of these things down >>> to subjective experience. >> >> I cannot hear a difference either. >> >> >> -- ScottG >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> -- Scott Gravenhorst >> -- FPGA MIDI Synthesizer Information: home1.gte.net/res0658s/ >> FPGA_synth/ >> -- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/fatman/ >> -- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/ >> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line. >> > > > -- > ............................................... http://artbots.org > .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org > .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism > ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book > reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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That harmonic is at 2500hz so it can't really be a matter of age. Are you
listening through headphones? I could post a saw with all phases randomized, it sounds extremely different. But I thought everyone knew that. If you wanna experiment easily with this, you can grab a demo of my Sytrus synth here (or use any additive synthesizer, really) http://www.image-line.com/documents/sytrus.html Then you would -start from the "default" patch -go to operator 1 -right-click the waveform, "saw" -right-click waveform again, "convert shape to sine harmonics" (it's not a realtime additive synth btw) -you now have the saw in the harmonics editor (it's not realtime btw), you can mess with phases & there's an option to randomize them I think that phases are more important for synthetic, sustaining timbres, though. I mean, those special tones hardly survive average mp3 compression qualities that are normally ok for other pieces of audio. > Thanks Doug, > > Didier, I honestly can't hear the difference > unless I slow it _right_ down. I am 40 this > week and noticing ears aren't what they once were. > > It's been a fascinating discussion in this thread btw. > Guess we just have to mark some of these things down > to subjective experience. > > > > > On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:48:04 -0400 > douglas repetto <douglas@...> wrote: > >> >> It's here: >> >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav >> >> >> >> douglas repetto wrote: >> > Didier, send me the file privately and I can post it on the website for >> > you. >> > >> > Didier Dambrin wrote: >> >> I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've >> >> grown >> >> enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. >> >> >> >> I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always >> >> broken. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', >> >>>> though. >> >>>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 >> >>>> saws, when >> >>>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. >> >>>> >> >>> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab >> >>> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to >> >>> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is >> >>> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can >> >>> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is >> >>> audible. >> >>> >> >>> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's >> >>> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and >> >>> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same >> >>> thing. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> r b-j rbj@... >> >>> >> >>> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> >>> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book >> >>> reviews, >> >>> dsp links >> >>> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> >>> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: >> >> 10/01/09 >> >> 06:34:00 >> >> >> >> -- >> >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book >> >> reviews, dsp links >> >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> ............................................... http://artbots.org >> .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org >> .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism >> ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, >> dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Didier Dambrin
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it's not an added sinewave, believe me. You may see it as an added sine in
an FFT view if your FFT is too small, though. You can do the test: -pick your fundamental freq -divide your nyquist by it, that gives you your number [m] of harmonics to stack up (keep each odd one for squarewave) -stack up m sines (from zero) with frequency = harmonic number [n, starting from 1] * fundamental freq, with amplitude = 1/n now just start one of those harmonics from another phase. > Sometimes I can't hear it, especially through speakers, that'll be that > ear > shape/room shape/distance phase mangling thing - headphones did the trick. > Visually and audibly, the third saw seems to have an additional sine wave > at > about 2.5Khz, and they all have differently positioned upper and lower > peaks. > Dave. > -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fw: A little question about DSP performance
by Andy Farnell
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Ah yes, on headphones, quite loud, I can hear the last one sounds like someone moving a mid range EQ, like a band reject/parametric. But not on speakers, and not if it's played quietly. On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:28:36 +0200 "Didier Dambrin" <didid@...> wrote: > That harmonic is at 2500hz so it can't really be a matter of age. Are you > listening through headphones? > > I could post a saw with all phases randomized, it sounds extremely > different. But I thought everyone knew that. > > > > If you wanna experiment easily with this, you can grab a demo of my Sytrus > synth here (or use any additive synthesizer, really) > http://www.image-line.com/documents/sytrus.html > Then you would > -start from the "default" patch > -go to operator 1 > -right-click the waveform, "saw" > -right-click waveform again, "convert shape to sine harmonics" (it's not a > realtime additive synth btw) > -you now have the saw in the harmonics editor (it's not realtime btw), you > can mess with phases & there's an option to randomize them > > I think that phases are more important for synthetic, sustaining timbres, > though. I mean, those special tones hardly survive average mp3 compression > qualities that are normally ok for other pieces of audio. > > > > > > > Thanks Doug, > > > > Didier, I honestly can't hear the difference > > unless I slow it _right_ down. I am 40 this > > week and noticing ears aren't what they once were. > > > > It's been a fascinating discussion in this thread btw. > > Guess we just have to mark some of these things down > > to subjective experience. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:48:04 -0400 > > douglas repetto <douglas@...> wrote: > > > >> > >> It's here: > >> > >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp/sourcecode/didier_dambrin_saw.wav > >> > >> > >> > >> douglas repetto wrote: > >> > Didier, send me the file privately and I can post it on the website for > >> > you. > >> > > >> > Didier Dambrin wrote: > >> >> I know but I don' thave the scientific background for matlab, and I've > >> >> grown > >> >> enough tools to test stuff quickly by code. > >> >> > >> >> I'd put the sample somewhere online if my public FTP wasn't always > >> >> broken. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Didier Dambrin wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> Not sure what you meant by 'at the end of a long sound file', > >> >>>> though. > >> >>>> I'm really simply talking about the audible difference between 2 > >> >>>> saws, when > >> >>>> you just phase-shift one of its harmonics. > >> >>>> > >> >>> because we know we can hear abrupt discontinuities, in that matlab > >> >>> file, i am letting the phase slip from what it is in the first saw to > >> >>> what it is in the second saw. so at the end of the sound file it is > >> >>> a different bandlimited saw than it was at the beginning. if you can > >> >>> hear it be different from beginning to end, then the difference is > >> >>> audible. > >> >>> > >> >>> Didier, consider getting matlab or Octave (the latter is free). it's > >> >>> a way to pass the analytical information along in a compressed and > >> >>> human-readable form. so we all know we are talking about the same > >> >>> thing. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> > >> >>> r b-j rbj@... > >> >>> > >> >>> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > >> >>> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book > >> >>> reviews, > >> >>> dsp links > >> >>> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >> >>> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > >> >> > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: > >> >> 10/01/09 > >> >> 06:34:00 > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > >> >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book > >> >> reviews, dsp links > >> >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >> >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> ............................................... http://artbots.org > >> .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org > >> .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >> .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism > >> ........................................ http://douglasrepetto.org > >> > >> -- > >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > >> dsp links > >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > -- > > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > > dsp links > > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 > 18:23:00 > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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