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 Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
2009/9/18 David Gerard < dgerard@...>:
> Hey kids! Sort out those BLOODY INSANE <ref> tags in the text!
>
> (Something to add to AutoWikiBrowser for sure ...)
this is going to create issues with {{reflist}} no?
--
geni
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
2009/9/18 geni < geniice@...>:
> 2009/9/18 David Gerard < dgerard@...>:
>> Hey kids! Sort out those BLOODY INSANE <ref> tags in the text!
>> (Something to add to AutoWikiBrowser for sure ...)
> this is going to create issues with {{reflist}} no?
>_< There's always one, isn't there ...
Fixing {{reflist}} to make it work with this strikes me as a better
idea. (or adding code to MediaWiki that does what {{reflist}} does.)
If {{reflist}} makes it harder to take reference details out of the
body of the wikitext, {{reflist}} needs to go.
- d.
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
Maybe have something like this:
{{reflist|begin}} becomes <references>
{{reflist|end}} becomes </references>
{{reflist}} says as <references />
-X!
On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:55 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> 2009/9/18 geni < geniice@...>:
>> 2009/9/18 David Gerard < dgerard@...>:
>
>>> Hey kids! Sort out those BLOODY INSANE <ref> tags in the text!
>>> (Something to add to AutoWikiBrowser for sure ...)
>
>> this is going to create issues with {{reflist}} no?
>
>
>> _< There's always one, isn't there ...
>
> Fixing {{reflist}} to make it work with this strikes me as a better
> idea. (or adding code to MediaWiki that does what {{reflist}} does.)
> If {{reflist}} makes it harder to take reference details out of the
> body of the wikitext, {{reflist}} needs to go.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
2009/9/18 geni < geniice@...>:
> 2009/9/18 David Gerard < dgerard@...>:
>> Hey kids! Sort out those BLOODY INSANE <ref> tags in the text!
>> (Something to add to AutoWikiBrowser for sure ...)
> this is going to create issues with {{reflist}} no?
I've noted possible problems with {{reflist}} in my AWB feature
request, and noted on [[Template talk:Reflist]] that {{reflist}} needs
not to get in the way of reference separating. I'm sure someone will
consider multi-column reference display at 90% body size to be vastly
more important than having actually editable wikitext, but I'm hopeful
they'll be vastly outnumbered.
- d.
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Soxred93 < soxred93@...> wrote:
> Maybe have something like this:
>
> {{reflist|begin}} becomes <references>
> {{reflist|end}} becomes </references>
> {{reflist}} says as <references />
That's a bit ugly but doable. You might as well just make it
{{reflist-begin}} though.
{{reflist-begin}}
<ref name="blah >...</ref>
{{reflist-end}}
More parameters to <references /> is probably the right way to go:
<references style="small" />
<ref name="blah >...</ref>
</references>
Steve
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Steve Bennett < stevagewp@...> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Soxred93 < soxred93@...> wrote:
>> Maybe have something like this:
>>
>> {{reflist|begin}} becomes <references>
>> {{reflist|end}} becomes </references>
>> {{reflist}} says as <references />
>
> That's a bit ugly but doable. You might as well just make it
> {{reflist-begin}} though.
> {{reflist-begin}}
> <ref name="blah >...</ref>
> {{reflist-end}}
Oic, it's actually {{refbegin}} and {{refend}}.
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
2009/9/18 Steve Bennett < stevagewp@...>:
> More parameters to <references /> is probably the right way to go:
Undoubtedly. {{reflist}} has many thousands of transclusions; surely
enough to rate software support. Go file a bug, or just code it ;-)
- d.
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
> 2009/9/18 Charles Matthews < charles.r.matthews@...>:
>> Yes, good, but {{reflist}} is also progress and needs to be made compatible.
David Gerard < dgerard@...> wrote:
> Shirley {{reflist}} should be made options for <references>. Does it
> do anything other than pretty formatting?
Agree with David, and even without considering the superficial
differences, a hard-coded function should take preference over a
template hack. The latter doesn't appear to solve the present issue
which is editing being obstructed by large in-text citations. Andrew's
hack seems to be more than sufficient.
The issue then is that a bot would be relied upon to do the moves -
section edits means that adding citations will continue to work in the
normal in-text fashion, and even in less common full-page edits we
don't necessarily expect people to manually put citations in the
references section. So.. a massive wave of site-wide bot-edits
followed by a persistent bot?
Be interesting to see if just leaving a site-wide worknote above the
titlespace would get most of the job done with user cycles.
-Stevertigo
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
Im working on a toolserver based tool if anyone would be interested. Im
doing some basic parsing now.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:10 PM, stevertigo < stvrtg@...> wrote:
> > 2009/9/18 Charles Matthews < charles.r.matthews@...>:
> >> Yes, good, but {{reflist}} is also progress and needs to be made
> compatible.
> David Gerard < dgerard@...> wrote:
>
> > Shirley {{reflist}} should be made options for <references>. Does it
> > do anything other than pretty formatting?
>
> Agree with David, and even without considering the superficial
> differences, a hard-coded function should take preference over a
> template hack. The latter doesn't appear to solve the present issue
> which is editing being obstructed by large in-text citations. Andrew's
> hack seems to be more than sufficient.
>
> The issue then is that a bot would be relied upon to do the moves -
> section edits means that adding citations will continue to work in the
> normal in-text fashion, and even in less common full-page edits we
> don't necessarily expect people to manually put citations in the
> references section. So.. a massive wave of site-wide bot-edits
> followed by a persistent bot?
>
> Be interesting to see if just leaving a site-wide worknote above the
> titlespace would get most of the job done with user cycles.
>
> -Stevertigo
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
Out of curiosity ... Do we have to allow nested refs? Would it be
better to un-nest them?
Stylistically I think it's preferred not to do that.
Or at least, un-nest them to the extent of moving the body of ref B
outside the body of ref A, and replacing with a named ref callout to
B?
<ref>A <ref> B </ref> </ref>
=>
<ref name=A>A <ref name=B/> </ref>
<ref name=B>B</ref>
That the code let you get away with it doesn't mean it's a good idea
or that we ultimately need to support it. If we can find all
instances and fix it...
--
-george william herbert
george.herbert@...
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Steve Bennett < stevagewp@...> wrote:
> Apparently the new cool thing to do is {{r|foo}} rather than <ref
> name="foo" />. Works for me.
Now we can {{note|foo}}^W^W{{r|foo}} like it's 2005!
But seriously, I find this discouraging - a sign of dysfunctionality.
All the work put in to switch to <ref> and now we're switching *back*
to something I find indistinguishable from the original? I guess I'll
be opting out of whatever the next switch will be...
--
gwern
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Gwern Branwen < gwern0@...> wrote:
> Now we can {{note|foo}}^W^W{{r|foo}} like it's 2005!
>
> But seriously, I find this discouraging - a sign of dysfunctionality.
> All the work put in to switch to <ref> and now we're switching *back*
> to something I find indistinguishable from the original? I guess I'll
> be opting out of whatever the next switch will be...
Hmm, I don't recall how {{note}} worked - is the current template what
you're referring to? I think the key here is that the remote
definition is optional. The issue arises because this:
Trees are green.<ref> http://www.trees.com</ref>
...is easier to write, but this:
Trees are green.{{r|trees}}
...is easier to read. So it makes sense to write one way and have a
bot convert into the other. Both ways have their downsides, but we
just have to live with in the absence of a fancier editor.
Steve
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Steve Bennett < stevagewp@...> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Gwern Branwen < gwern0@...> wrote:
>> Now we can {{note|foo}}^W^W{{r|foo}} like it's 2005!
>>
>> But seriously, I find this discouraging - a sign of dysfunctionality.
>> All the work put in to switch to <ref> and now we're switching *back*
>> to something I find indistinguishable from the original? I guess I'll
>> be opting out of whatever the next switch will be...
>
> Hmm, I don't recall how {{note}} worked - is the current template what
> you're referring to?
Not sure. I drank the <ref> kool-aid and haven't used {{note}} in years.
> I think the key here is that the remote
> definition is optional. The issue arises because this:
>
> Trees are green.<ref> http://www.trees.com</ref>
>
> ...is easier to write, but this:
>
> Trees are green.{{r|trees}}
>
> ...is easier to read. So it makes sense to write one way and have a
> bot convert into the other. Both ways have their downsides, but we
> just have to live with in the absence of a fancier editor.
>
> Steve
But my problem is I don't see how the new stuff buys us *anything*.
You say that we can have a bot convert {{r|trees}} to <ref> stuff and
reap the benefits of both styles? But then if we've solved that
problem, then converting to & from {{note|trees}} is trivial and we
didn't need the new feature at all.
And either way, users still need to memorize new markup ('{{r}}' is
actually worse than '{{note}}' in that respect; the latter at least is
an actual word).
--
gwern
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
Gwern Branwen wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Steve Bennett < stevagewp@...> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Gwern Branwen < gwern0@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Now we can {{note|foo}}^W^W{{r|foo}} like it's 2005!
>>>
>>> But seriously, I find this discouraging - a sign of dysfunctionality.
>>> All the work put in to switch to <ref> and now we're switching *back*
>>> to something I find indistinguishable from the original? I guess I'll
>>> be opting out of whatever the next switch will be...
>>>
>> Hmm, I don't recall how {{note}} worked - is the current template what
>> you're referring to?
>>
>
> Not sure. I drank the <ref> kool-aid and haven't used {{note}} in years.
>
[[Wikipedia:Footnote3]] explains it all. I can't work out the
difference, except maybe it took Dragons flight a lot of work to give us
what we already had?
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Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Article metadata separation from main wikitext
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Surreptitiousness
< surreptitious.wikipedian@...> wrote:
> [[Wikipedia:Footnote3]] explains it all. I can't work out the
> difference, except maybe it took Dragons flight a lot of work to give us
> what we already had?
Interesting. I'm not sure why we tolerate so many incompatible
systems. Let's just render them all obsolete except the one true one.
I do notice this crucial limitation in the {{ref}} system:
"The {{note}}'s in the Notes section must occur in the same order as
the corresponding {{ref}}'s in the main text. This is an important
issue to consider when adding more footnotes later."
In other words, this{{ref|foo}} doesn't{{ref|bar}} work:
# {{note|bar}} A bar
# {{note|foo}} A foo
The {{ref}}/{{note}} system in general looks like a hack. You have to
manually create the bullet points and carefully preserve order. And
trying to create multiple references to the same footnote looks like a
major pain in the arse. We should kill this. It's particularly
confusing that <ref> and {{r}} refer to one system, but {{ref}} is
another system. Who can remember that??
Steve
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