Gender or Sex?

[Tom Browder]

In the interest of precision, shouldn't the label "Gender" for a
"People" entry more formally be shown as "Sex"?

The word "gender" has become a popular, but incorrect, term to
identify a person's biological sex trait, but it shouldn't be used in
formal language for that purpose.  As far as I know, "sex" is still
the term used on a birth certificate, and that is what is being
tracked in GRAMPS is it not?

>From a google search for "definition: gender" I get:

1 a : a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun,
adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also
partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social
rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with
and selection of other words or grammatical forms b : membership of a
word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c : an inflectional form
showing membership in such a subclass
2 a : sex <the feminine gender> b : the behavioral, cultural, or
psychological traits typically associated with one sex
the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated
with one sex

Thanks.

-Tom

Tom Browder
Niceville, Florida
USA

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[Nick Hall-6]

You maybe right.

There is a similar definition on the WHO website:
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html
*
"Sex"* refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that
define men and women.

*"Gender"* refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors,
activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate
for men and women.

GEDCOM uses the sex tag. Gramps source code uses gender.

Nick.

Tom Browder wrote:

> In the interest of precision, shouldn't the label "Gender" for a
> "People" entry more formally be shown as "Sex"?
>
> The word "gender" has become a popular, but incorrect, term to
> identify a person's biological sex trait, but it shouldn't be used in
> formal language for that purpose.  As far as I know, "sex" is still
> the term used on a birth certificate, and that is what is being
> tracked in GRAMPS is it not?
>
> >From a google search for "definition: gender" I get:
>
> 1 a : a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun,
> adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also
> partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social
> rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with
> and selection of other words or grammatical forms b : membership of a
> word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c : an inflectional form
> showing membership in such a subclass
> 2 a : sex <the feminine gender> b : the behavioral, cultural, or
> psychological traits typically associated with one sex
> the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated
> with one sex
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Tom
>
> Tom Browder
> Niceville, Florida
> USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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>
>  

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[Doug Blank-2]

This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
"spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:

http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html

However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
have sex."

In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
in society, or even their own family).

But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
is probably what we mean most of the time.

In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
new translation, and translate that single word.

-Doug

[1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/

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[Gerald Britton-2]

Today some use "gender" as an attribute denoting (fe)maleness, perhaps
to distinguish it from "sex", the verb. (That makes the double meaning
work in "words have gender...")

On 10/12/09, Doug Blank <doug.blank@...> wrote:

> This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
> "spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html
>
> However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
> even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
> have sex."
>
> In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
> referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
> the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
> described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
> in society, or even their own family).
>
> But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
> interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
> details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
> be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
> terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
> is probably what we mean most of the time.
>
> In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
> term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
> tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
> copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
> new translation, and translate that single word.
>
> -Doug
>
> [1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

Gerald Britton

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[Kummel62]

For some languages,  like Swedish, this is not a problem as we translate both gender and sex with
one word "kön". Gender in connection with words is translated as "genus".

/Peter

> Today some use "gender" as an attribute denoting (fe)maleness, perhaps
> to distinguish it from "sex", the verb. (That makes the double meaning
> work in "words have gender...")
>
> On 10/12/09, Doug Blank <doug.blank@...> wrote:
> > This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
> > "spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:
> >
> > http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html
> >
> > However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
> > even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
> > have sex."
> >
> > In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
> > referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
> > the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
> > described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
> > in society, or even their own family).
> >
> > But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
> > interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
> > details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
> > be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
> > terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
> > is probably what we mean most of the time.
> >
> > In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
> > term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
> > tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
> > copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
> > new translation, and translate that single word.
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > [1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Gramps-users mailing list
> > Gramps-users@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users

--
Peter Landgren
Talken Hagen
671 94  BRUNSKOG
0570-530 21
070-635 4719
peter.talken@...
Skype: pgl4820.2


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[Espen Berg-2]

2009/10/13 Peter Landgren <peter.talken@...>:
> For some languages,  like Swedish, this is not a problem as we translate both gender and sex with
> one word "kön". Gender in connection with words is translated as "genus".
>
> /Peter


We have the same in Norwegian.


Espen

>> Today some use "gender" as an attribute denoting (fe)maleness, perhaps
>> to distinguish it from "sex", the verb. (That makes the double meaning
>> work in "words have gender...")
>>
>> On 10/12/09, Doug Blank <doug.blank@...> wrote:
>> > This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
>> > "spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:
>> >
>> > http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html
>> >
>> > However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
>> > even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
>> > have sex."
>> >
>> > In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
>> > referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
>> > the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
>> > described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
>> > in society, or even their own family).
>> >
>> > But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
>> > interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
>> > details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
>> > be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
>> > terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
>> > is probably what we mean most of the time.
>> >
>> > In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
>> > term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
>> > tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
>> > copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
>> > new translation, and translate that single word.
>> >
>> > -Doug
>> >
>> > [1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/

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[Gerald Britton-2]

Dutch as well, IIRC "geslacht".  (Dutch is my second language)

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Espen Berg <espenbe@...> wrote:

> 2009/10/13 Peter Landgren <peter.talken@...>:
>> For some languages,  like Swedish, this is not a problem as we translate both gender and sex with
>> one word "kön". Gender in connection with words is translated as "genus".
>>
>> /Peter
>
>
> We have the same in Norwegian.
>
>
> Espen
>
>
>
>
>>> Today some use "gender" as an attribute denoting (fe)maleness, perhaps
>>> to distinguish it from "sex", the verb. (That makes the double meaning
>>> work in "words have gender...")
>>>
>>> On 10/12/09, Doug Blank <doug.blank@...> wrote:
>>> > This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
>>> > "spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:
>>> >
>>> > http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html
>>> >
>>> > However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
>>> > even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
>>> > have sex."
>>> >
>>> > In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
>>> > referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
>>> > the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
>>> > described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
>>> > in society, or even their own family).
>>> >
>>> > But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
>>> > interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
>>> > details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
>>> > be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
>>> > terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
>>> > is probably what we mean most of the time.
>>> >
>>> > In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
>>> > term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
>>> > tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
>>> > copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
>>> > new translation, and translate that single word.
>>> >
>>> > -Doug
>>> >
>>> > [1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Gerald Britton

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[Martin Ewing]

My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter kind - seem less genteel!)

In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken, don't fix" it applies.

Martin

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Gerald Britton <gerald.britton@...> wrote:

Today some use "gender" as an attribute denoting (fe)maleness, perhaps
to distinguish it from "sex", the verb. (That makes the double meaning
work in "words have gender...")

On 10/12/09, Doug Blank <doug.blank@...> wrote:
> This was discussed in the past in connection to translating the word
> "spouse" into languages that have gendered forms for the word:
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Gender-translation-td21902634.html
>
> However, I don't think we considered "fixing" gramps at that point,
> even though it was pointed out that "words have gender, but people
> have sex."
>
> In many places in genealogy, we specifically do mean "sex" as we are
> referring to the role a person plays in the biological relationship to
> the children. However, in other places, the category could easily be
> described to refer to a person's gender (eg, the role that they play
> in society, or even their own family).
>
> But, I'm not sure one should use one form over the other "in the
> interest of precision" unless you pick the term to use based on the
> details of an individual. In other words, in any given tree, there may
> be individuals that one could describe their role in the family in
> terms of either gender or sex, or possibly even both. However, "sex"
> is probably what we mean most of the time.
>
> In any event, if one felt strongly about changing the gramps default
> term from gender to sex, you could post a Feature Request in the bug
> tracker [1] to have it changed. Or, you could make it so that your
> copy of gramps "translated" gender to sex. You'd just need to make a
> new translation, and translate that single word.
>
> -Doug
>
> [1] http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

Gerald Britton

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[Bret Busby]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Martin Ewing wrote:

>
> My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less
> synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it
> excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter
> kind - seem less genteel!)
>
> In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken,
> don't fix" it applies.
>
> Martin
>
>

There is also the aspect that, when asked the single word question, the
question "Gender?", generally returns only one of two answers - "male"
or "female", whereas the question "Sex?", at least here in Australia,
can also return answers such as "Yes, please!", or, "No thanks - I have
a headache.".

The use of the word "gender", is nice, simple, and, unambiguous.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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[Ken Benseman]

Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Martin Ewing wrote:

  

My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less
synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it
excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter
kind - seem less genteel!)

In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken,
don't fix" it applies.

Martin


    

There is also the aspect that, when asked the single word question, the 
question "Gender?", generally returns only one of two answers - "male" 
or "female", whereas the question "Sex?", at least here in Australia, 
can also return answers such as "Yes, please!", or, "No thanks - I have 
a headache.".

The use of the word "gender", is nice, simple, and, unambiguous.
  

It is the same here in New Zealand.
Maybe it is time to have a look at doing some different English translations.

Ken.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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[Gerald Britton-2]

I dunno about down under, but here (Canada) most forms (e.g. passport)
ask for your Sex, not your Gender.  (So does the Australian passport
form!) That is because historically gender has been an attribute of a
noun, not a person.  These days though, I hear lots of references to a
person's gender.  Historically the word has a few different uses,
including the identification of a person's sex and as a grammatical
term, among others.  I suppose it's one of those words that whose use
will wax and wane.  (FWIW did you know that "girl" once meant a young
child of either sex -- er -- gender?)

So for our project what do we do?  I think there's no easy answer,
since the use seems to vary by locale and culture.  On the one hand,
genealogy is a science and should be strict in its use of terminology
(like a passport form);  on the other hand it is an art that allows
for broad interpretation.


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:48 AM, Ken Benseman <ken.mymail@...> wrote:

> Bret Busby wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Martin Ewing wrote:
>
>
>
> My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less
> synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it
> excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter
> kind - seem less genteel!)
>
> In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken,
> don't fix" it applies.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> There is also the aspect that, when asked the single word question, the
> question "Gender?", generally returns only one of two answers - "male"
> or "female", whereas the question "Sex?", at least here in Australia,
> can also return answers such as "Yes, please!", or, "No thanks - I have
> a headache.".
>
> The use of the word "gender", is nice, simple, and, unambiguous.
>
>
> It is the same here in New Zealand.
> Maybe it is time to have a look at doing some different English
> translations.
>
> Ken.
>
> --
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> ..............
>
> "So once you do know what the question actually is,
>   you'll know what the answer means."
> - Deep Thought,
>    Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
>    "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
>    A Trilogy In Four Parts",
>    written by Douglas Adams,
>    published by Pan Books, 1992
>
> ....................................................
>
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[Billie Erin Walsh]

Bret Busby wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Martin Ewing wrote:
>
>  
>> My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less
>> synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it
>> excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter
>> kind - seem less genteel!)
>>
>> In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken,
>> don't fix" it applies.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>    
>
> There is also the aspect that, when asked the single word question, the
> question "Gender?", generally returns only one of two answers - "male"
> or "female", whereas the question "Sex?", at least here in Australia,
> can also return answers such as "Yes, please!", or, "No thanks - I have
> a headache.".
>
> The use of the word "gender", is nice, simple, and, unambiguous.
>
> --
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> ..............
>
> "So once you do know what the question actually is,
>   you'll know what the answer means."
> - Deep Thought,
>    Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
>    "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
>    A Trilogy In Four Parts",
>    written by Douglas Adams,
>    published by Pan Books, 1992
>
> ....................................................
>  

My personal favorite is, "Is that an offer?" Then you also have "Not
Lately" and "What time and where".

--
Treat all stressful situations like a dog does.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
just pee on it and walk away

Sent with Thunderbird on my Kubuntu Linux Desktop


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[Duncan Lithgow-5]

I tend to agree that the most correct word is 'sex' and for that
reason we should use it. I would also smirk the first few times I read
it, but after that it's just a word.

I'm also thinking that because of the number of people taking 'gender
reassignment' surgery the word gender may later be useful for a chosen
sex, rather than sex at birth. But that's just some mental
ramblings...

So, I vote for the inclusion sex in GRAMPS!

Duncan

--
Linux user #372812 | http://lithgow-schmidt.dk

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[Bret Busby]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Duncan Lithgow wrote:

>
> So, I vote for the inclusion sex in GRAMPS!
>
>

But, if sex is included in Gramps, will it still be software "for all of
the family", or, will it be "Adults Only" software?

Well, someone had to ask...

:)

And, if GRAMPS includes the word "sex" in the software, will it be
blacklisted by "nanny software", that some governments and parliaments,
including the Australian parliament, want to inflict on their people?
("Big Brother is watching, and, monitoring your thoughts...")

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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[Ken Benseman]

Having discussed with ours doing genealogy in our group there is no clear choice. It seems to depend more on age group and where in there world people came from.
It seem like this may be something that should be added to the preferences, along with similar wording choices. It would also be good with a custom choice or two.
The interface and reports could then use the options of the end user, thus making for a happier user. Also the report would be more appropriate for the region of the world the user lives.

Ken.

Bret Busby wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Martin Ewing wrote:

  

My sense is that in contemporary English, gender and sex are more or less
synonymous as nouns, with gender being a little more polite since it
excludes the verb possibility.  (The Anglo-Saxon words - the 3 or 4 letter
kind - seem less genteel!)

In any case, the meaning is clear enough, and the rule "if it's not broken,
don't fix" it applies.

Martin


    

There is also the aspect that, when asked the single word question, the 
question "Gender?", generally returns only one of two answers - "male" 
or "female", whereas the question "Sex?", at least here in Australia, 
can also return answers such as "Yes, please!", or, "No thanks - I have 
a headache.".

The use of the word "gender", is nice, simple, and, unambiguous.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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