Gentoo Linux some `Info' manuals missing index

[Harry Putnam]

Running Gentoo Linux

I've noticed some items on the Info menu screen, for example `cvs' do
not have an Index generated for the use of `index' search `i'.

I'm using the emacs info reader, not the standalone.

Doing C-h i m cvs <RET> Lands me at the top Node of cvs manual, but if
I type `i' to ask for an `index' search I'm told `no index'

How can I generate that index from the sources.. or from this info
file?

I see and entry called `index' at the bottom of the cvs topnode page
and it links to an index but apparently this isn't the one that allows
the `index' search.

Information from the first page for `cvs'
-------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      --------
 (cvs)Top



   This info manual describes how to use and administer CVS version
   1.12.12.
   
 
Copyright (C) 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001,
2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

Portions  
          Copyright (C) 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Derek
          R. Price,
          Copyright (C) 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Ximbiot
          <http://ximbiot.com>,
          Copyright (C) 1992, 1993, 1999 Signum Support AB,
          and Copyright (C) others.

   Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this
manual provided the copyright notice and this permission notice are
preserved on all copies.

   Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of
this manual under the conditions for verbatim copying, provided also
that the entire resulting derived work is distributed under the terms
of a permission notice identical to this one.

   Permission is granted to copy and distribute translations of this
manual into another language, under the above conditions for modified
versions, except that this permission notice may be stated in a
translation approved by the Free Software Foundation.

* Menu:

* Overview::                    An introduction to CVS
* Repository::                  Where all your sources are stored
* Starting a new project::      Starting a project with CVS
* Revisions::                   Numeric and symbolic names for revisions
* Branching and merging::       Diverging/rejoining branches of development
* Recursive behavior::          CVS descends directories
* Adding and removing::         Adding/removing/renaming files/directories
* History browsing::            Viewing the history of files in various ways

CVS and the Real World.
-----------------------
* Binary files::                CVS can handle binary files
* Multiple developers::         How CVS helps a group of developers
* Revision management::         Policy questions for revision management
* Keyword substitution::        CVS can include the revision inside the file
* Tracking sources::            Tracking third-party sources
* Builds::                      Issues related to CVS and builds
* Special Files:: Devices, links and other non-regular files

References.
-----------
* CVS commands::                CVS commands share some things
* Invoking CVS::                Quick reference to CVS commands
* Administrative files::        Reference manual for the Administrative files
* Environment variables::       All environment variables which affect CVS
* Compatibility::               Upgrading CVS versions
* Troubleshooting::             Some tips when nothing works
* Credits::                     Some of the contributors to this manual
* BUGS::                        Dealing with bugs in CVS or this manual
* Index::                       Index

[Karl Berry]

Hi Harry,

    I'm using the emacs info reader, not the standalone.

Once you're in cvs.info, if you navigate to the Index node (e.g., m
Index RET from the top node), does it have any normal content?

If not, then your cvs.info is broken.  If so (and I bet it does), I'm
afraid you need to report this to bug-emacs@....  Be sure to include
the version of Emacs you are using, and a pointer to the actual cvs.info
file, so they can reproduce it.

    How can I generate that index from the sources..

makeinfo cvs.texinfo.

When I use `i' on the cvs.info I have in my Emacs 21.3, it works fine.
My Index node starts like this (except it has real control characters).

File: cvs.info,  Node: Index,  Prev: BUGS,  Up: Top

Index
*****

^@^H[index^@^H]
* Menu:

* !, in modules file:                    Excluding directories.


Best,
Karl

[Karl Berry]

Hi Harry,

    I'm using the emacs info reader, not the standalone.

Once you're in cvs.info, if you navigate to the Index node (e.g., m
Index RET from the top node), does it have any normal content?

If not, then your cvs.info is broken.  If so (and I bet it does), I'm
afraid you need to report this to bug-emacs@....  Be sure to include
the version of Emacs you are using, and a pointer to the actual cvs.info
file, so they can reproduce it.

    How can I generate that index from the sources..

makeinfo cvs.texinfo.

When I use `i' on the cvs.info I have in my Emacs 21.3, it works fine.
My Index node starts like this (except it has real control characters).

File: cvs.info,  Node: Index,  Prev: BUGS,  Up: Top

Index
*****

^@^H[index^@^H]
* Menu:

* !, in modules file:                    Excluding directories.


Best,
Karl

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

[...]

>     How can I generate that index from the sources..
>
> makeinfo cvs.texinfo.

I've downloaded the source package and navigated to ./doc diretory

Where I find several *.texi files
I created a test area then copied all *.texi to it

When I try to run makeinfo as you suggest I get the warnings below and
nothing is built.  (no info files)

This is texinfo-4.13

In the source directory ./doc... the info files have been compiled and
are present when I unpack the tarball.  They are dated Apr 18 2005

Here again the `i' index search fails when I load these info files.

-------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      --------
cd test
(wrapped for mail)
reader > makeinfo cvs.texinfo

cvs.texinfo:2229: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:2242: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:8454: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:8616: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:8692: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:10368: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:10747: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

cvs.texinfo:14498: warning: @strong{Note...} produces a spurious
cross-reference in Info; reword to avoid that.

[Karl Berry]

    Here again the `i' index search fails when I load these info files.

Too bad.  Like I said, you need to report this to bug-emacs.

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

>     Here again the `i' index search fails when I load these info files.
>
> Too bad.  Like I said, you need to report this to bug-emacs.

So you don't think it could be a texinfo bug?

texinfo (here) fails to build info files from the source *.texi.

[Karl Berry]

    So you don't think it could be a texinfo bug?

Not finding the index is clearly something about the Emacs reader.

    texinfo (here) fails to build info files from the source *.texi.

That's an independent problem.  I can't say what happened.  Nothing in
what you sent would prevent .info files from being created.  And it is
certainly possible to do it, since they are in the cvs tarball, and I've
done it myself.

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

>     So you don't think it could be a texinfo bug?
>
> Not finding the index is clearly something about the Emacs reader.

But emacs finds the index in all the other manuals I looked at.
bash, tar, emacs, date... etc.
   
Also, if I re-unpack the tarball, cd to doc  and delete all *.info*
files then run ./configure && make from top level
Only three info files for cvs are generated.

The tarball comes with 10 info files for cvs generated in
2005. Something seems off here...

Further:
And if I open cvs.info with emacs using C-u C-h i filename
pressing `i' (index) works with this info file.

I'm sorry to interrupt your day.  Maybe we could take this up when you
have more time?  I mean unless you are really convinced it is
absolutely an emacs bug.

[Karl Berry]

Hi Harry,

    But emacs finds the index in all the other manuals I looked at.
    bash, tar, emacs, date... etc.

That's what bugs are all about :).  They happen in some cases and not
others.

    And if I open cvs.info with emacs using C-u C-h i filename
    pressing `i' (index) works with this info file.

Ok, so that info file is ok.  It doesn't prove anything one way or
another about the Emacs failure on the other info file.

    Only three info files for cvs are generated.
    The tarball comes with 10 info files for cvs generated in
    2005. Something seems off here...

Not necessarily.  It could simply be a difference in the default
--split-size for generating .info files, which in fact did change since
2005, as I recall.

    I'm sorry to interrupt your day.  

Not to worry.

    Maybe we could take this up when you have more time?  

I will never have more time :).  I always want to track these things
down.

    I mean unless you are really convinced it is absolutely an emacs
    bug.

I'm never absolutely certain of anything.  How about this: send me a
tar.gz with the actual cvs.info* files which fail with your Emacs, and
tell me what version of Emacs you are using (M-x emacs-version).  Then
I'll see if I can reproduce it.

Best,
Karl

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

> I'm never absolutely certain of anything.  How about this: send me a
> tar.gz with the actual cvs.info* files which fail with your Emacs, and
> tell me what version of Emacs you are using (M-x emacs-version).  Then
> I'll see if I can reproduce it.

Ok, the message is being sent now.
The info files are from /usr/share/info/cvs.info*
Where the Gentoo OS has installed them

The version of emacs:

GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu,
   GTK+ Version 2.16.6) of 2009-10-16

[Karl Berry]

Hi Harry,

    GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu,

I don't have 23.1.50, but with 23.1.1, starting up with
  emacs-23.1 --no-site --no-init
doing
  C-h i m cvs <RET>
  i update RET
does find index entries for update.  With the cvs.info* files you sent me.

So, could it be something in your site and/or personal Elisp files?  On
the other hand, if the above fails for you with 23.1.50, I am left with
suggesting writing the Emacs developers.  Perhaps it's a change they
introduced since 23.1.

Best,
Karl

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

> Hi Harry,
>
>     GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu,
>
> I don't have 23.1.50, but with 23.1.1, starting up with
>   emacs-23.1 --no-site --no-init
> doing
>   C-h i m cvs <RET>
>   i update RET
> does find index entries for update.  With the cvs.info* files you sent me.

Well that narrows it down quite a lot then.

> So, could it be something in your site and/or personal Elisp files?  On
> the other hand, if the above fails for you with 23.1.50, I am left with
> suggesting writing the Emacs developers.  Perhaps it's a change they
> introduced since 23.1.

It could be something local, sure.  But I've done nothing to the
files, so they are on the fs `as installed'.  And since its only that
one info file, it seems unlikely to be a general problem with
emacs-23.1.50.

Possibly something with the way gentoo installed cvs?

I'm going to post on emacs-dev before going the bug route... they'll
probably insist on it anyway... but I'd first like to hear if others
using latest emacs-23 have the same problem.

What, if anything, do you think it means that a newly generated set
of info files for cvs from the source texi, do not display this
problem?

Is it normal for a package of new sources to have info files generated
nearly 5 yrs ago?... I know in some pkgs the info file generation is
part of the build... but seems not to be the case with cvs as
evidenced by the fact that if I hand generate the info files from the
tarball texi file the problem goes away.

Do you think it would still be considered a bug for emacs if newly
generated info files from cvs work?

Anyway, sorry to have been a big pita for apparently no good reason.

[Karl Berry]

Hi Harry,

    Possibly something with the way gentoo installed cvs?

I can't picture that.

    What, if anything, do you think it means that a newly generated set
    of info files for cvs from the source texi, do not display this
    problem?

The Emacs bug is the Emacs bug, regardless.

    Is it normal for a package of new sources to have info files generated
    nearly 5 yrs ago?

Evidently it means that the CVS maintainers didn't update the Info files
in their tarball.  They should have.  That's a separate issue.

    Do you think it would still be considered a bug for emacs if newly
    generated info files from cvs work?

It depends on why the "old" info files don't work.

The only way I can imagine it not being a bug is the following: "new"
info files have a magic sequence to mark indexes.  That is not present
in the old Info files.  Perhaps the Emacs maintainers intentionally
decided to only support index searching when that magic sequence is
present.  If they made that decision, I think it wasn't a good decision,
but of course it's up to them.

If they didn't make that decision, it simply seems like a bug introduced
since 23.1 was released, based on the evidence at hand.

Anyway, there is no need to debate theories about it.  Send the files
that cause the error to emacs-devel and let them debug it.  It's their
program.

Best,
Karl

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:20:20 -0600
> From: karl@... (Karl Berry)
> Cc: help-texinfo@...
>
>     Do you think it would still be considered a bug for emacs if newly
>     generated info files from cvs work?
>
> It depends on why the "old" info files don't work.
>
> The only way I can imagine it not being a bug is the following: "new"
> info files have a magic sequence to mark indexes.  That is not present
> in the old Info files.  Perhaps the Emacs maintainers intentionally
> decided to only support index searching when that magic sequence is
> present.  If they made that decision, I think it wasn't a good decision,
> but of course it's up to them.

They did no such thing.  I have CVS Info manual in the old format, and
the index there works for me inside Emacs.

> If they didn't make that decision, it simply seems like a bug introduced
> since 23.1 was released, based on the evidence at hand.

Nope, the above works for me in stock Emacs 23.1.

[Harry Putnam]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@...> writes:

>
> They did no such thing.  I have CVS Info manual in the old format, and
> the index there works for me inside Emacs.
>
>> If they didn't make that decision, it simply seems like a bug introduced
>> since 23.1 was released, based on the evidence at hand.
>
> Nope, the above works for me in stock Emacs 23.1.

Eli, if you can, what is the date on your copy of cvs info files.  And
how many are there?

For me, with cvs  1.12.12 (client/server), The info files are already
created in the sources pkg.  They date from 2005 and there are 11 of
them.

Those files fail on an `i' (index) search with the message `no index'.

(This is with yesterdays (11/01/09) cvs of emacs-23)

However the index itself is there in the first page menu and can be
opened and read.

Just the info search fails.

If I generate the info files manually using the source CVS texi and
texinfo-4.13 I get 3 files and info search works fine.

Further, I haven't run across any other info manuals where index
search fails.  (I've tried just a random selection; bash, date, tar
and texinfo)

So it seems not to be a general problem and would also seem to
indicate its not a local problem.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Harry Putnam <reader@...>
> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:22:29 -0600
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@...> writes:
>
> >
> > They did no such thing.  I have CVS Info manual in the old format, and
> > the index there works for me inside Emacs.
> >
> >> If they didn't make that decision, it simply seems like a bug introduced
> >> since 23.1 was released, based on the evidence at hand.
> >
> > Nope, the above works for me in stock Emacs 23.1.
>
> Eli, if you can, what is the date on your copy of cvs info files.  And
> how many are there?

Exactly like yours:

> For me, with cvs  1.12.12 (client/server), The info files are already
> created in the sources pkg.  They date from 2005 and there are 11 of
> them.

Me too.

> Those files fail on an `i' (index) search with the message `no index'.

Please look in cvs.info, and tell me what does its first line say.

> However the index itself is there in the first page menu and can be
> opened and read.

Can you show here the first few lines of the Index node (it should be
in cvs.info-10), starting from the line before the Node line?

> If I generate the info files manually using the source CVS texi and
> texinfo-4.13 I get 3 files and info search works fine.

The 3 files instead of 11 is because latest versions of makeinfo
enlarged their default split size, so this is normal.  You can control
the split size with the --split-size switch, if you want to try to
re-create 11 files.

The fact that index search works for you in freshly generated files
probably means that the original ones are botched, perhaps due to some
bad version of makeinfo used to produce them.

[Karl Berry]

    The fact that index search works for you in freshly generated files
    probably means that the original ones are botched,

They worked perfectly well for me in emacs-23.1.1.  I didn't see
anything obviously wrong with them at a quick glance.  They don't have
the magic marker in the index, that's the only meaningful difference I
saw from freshly-generated ones.


Harry, if you can, please try emacs-23.1.  Not emacs-23.1.50.
That will eliminate the prime variable of the Emacs version.

Also, please start Emacs by running emacs-23.1 --no-site --no-init.
That will eliminate any chance of site or personal code getting in the
way.  There's no need to guess about these things.


As far as I can, this is and always has been about Emacs.  Not makeinfo,
not the Info files.  Please talk to the Emacs developers.

Best,
karl

[Harry Putnam]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@...> writes:

>> From: Harry Putnam <reader@...>
>> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:22:29 -0600
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@...> writes:
>>
>> >
>> > They did no such thing.  I have CVS Info manual in the old format, and
>> > the index there works for me inside Emacs.
>> >
>> >> If they didn't make that decision, it simply seems like a bug introduced
>> >> since 23.1 was released, based on the evidence at hand.
>> >
>> > Nope, the above works for me in stock Emacs 23.1.
>>
>> Eli, if you can, what is the date on your copy of cvs info files.  And
>> how many are there?
>
> Exactly like yours:
>
>> For me, with cvs  1.12.12 (client/server), The info files are already
>> created in the sources pkg.  They date from 2005 and there are 11 of
>> them.
>
> Me too.
>
>> Those files fail on an `i' (index) search with the message `no index'.
>
> Please look in cvs.info, and tell me what does its first line say.

A few more than 1:

,----
| This is cvs.info, produced by makeinfo version 4.5 from cvs.texinfo.
|
| INFO-DIR-SECTION GNU Packages
| START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
| * CVS: (cvs).                   Concurrent Versions System
| END-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
| INFO-DIR-SECTION Individual utilities
| START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
| * cvs: (cvs)CVS commands.       Concurrent Versions System
| END-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
`----

>> However the index itself is there in the first page menu and can be
>> opened and read.
>
> Can you show here the first few lines of the Index node (it should be
> in cvs.info-10), starting from the line before the Node line?

Here, the index Node is in cvs.info-11:
[...]
,----
|
| END-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
|
| ^_
| File: cvs.info,  Node: Index,  Prev: BUGS,  Up: Top
|
| Index
| *****
|
| * Menu:
`----

  [...]

[Harry Putnam]

karl@... (Karl Berry) writes:

> Also, please start Emacs by running emacs-23.1 --no-site --no-init.
> That will eliminate any chance of site or personal code getting in the
> way.  There's no need to guess about these things.

No need, since starting the newest emacs, the one that I reported as
failing has no problem with index search on cvs manual.

I've very sorry but apparently it is only a local phenomena.
Sorry in that I wasted every ones' time.

However, it is really puzzling what kind of local problem could allow any other
info manual index search to work, but not cvs index search.

I was so sure that the fact that opening any other info manual and
having index search work, indicated it was NOT a local problem that I
skipped the all important step of opening emacs with --no-site
--no-init.

To repeat again.

Open emacs 23.1.50 (yesterdays cvs) with --no-site --no-init and emacs
has no problem using index search on cvs manual,

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:54:12 -0600
> From: karl@... (Karl Berry)
> Cc:
>
> Harry, if you can, please try emacs-23.1.  Not emacs-23.1.50.
> That will eliminate the prime variable of the Emacs version.

Sorry, I didn't realize that a development snapshot of Emacs was
used.  Yes, that's another possible factor.  As I said, stock 23.1
works for me.