Gnome's biggest failure. By far. Stone-cold evil.

[Jim March]

Folks,

I'm writing this after watching this same bug drive me nuts since I
first ran Linux in September of 2006 (Ubuntu Dapper).  At the moment
I'm running Ubuntu Karmic Alpha 4 and the same bug just walloped me
hard.

Why can't panel items stay put even if something re-sizes the desktop
(resolution) smaller and then I move it back up?  And please do NOT
tell me "lock to panel" works.  Don't even.

Sounds silly, right?  But I'm about ready to abandon Gnome over it.
And I can't be the only one pissed off.

OK.  When I install a Gnome-based system, first thing I do is lay out
the upper panel.  I put things in certain places...standard menus are
top-left, then some frequently used apps, then at the upper right
various "utility items" such as trash, show desktop, search, system
monitor, date'n'time, etc.  Having all that stuff in their places
helps me work smoother and faster - I don't need to search around, I
know where stuff is.

My laptop runs 1280x800 resolution.  I just ran an app that seems to
have re-sized me a lot smaller while it was running - 800x600 at a
guess.  When I came back out, resolution went back to normal but my
panel is absolutely scrambled to hell and gone.

PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.

End the madness?  Please?

Jim March - just a poor user...
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[Alexey Rusakov-2]

В Срд, 19/08/2009 в 19:08 -0700, Jim March пишет:
> Folks,
>
> I'm writing this after watching this same bug drive me nuts since I
> first ran Linux in September of 2006 (Ubuntu Dapper).  At the moment
> I'm running Ubuntu Karmic Alpha 4 and the same bug just walloped me
> hard.

[skipped]

> PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
> intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
> double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.
>
> End the madness?  Please?
>
> Jim March - just a poor user...
Seems like it as Ubuntu related issue. I often run applications (mostly
games) that switch screen resolution, and GNOME panel doesn't get messed
up. ALT Linux Desktop distribution.

--
  Alexey "Ktirf" Rusakov
  GNOME Project
  ALT Linux Team


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[Alexey Rusakov-2]

В Чтв, 20/08/2009 в 14:21 +0400, Alexey Rusakov пишет:

> В Срд, 19/08/2009 в 19:08 -0700, Jim March пишет:
> > Folks,
> >
> > I'm writing this after watching this same bug drive me nuts since I
> > first ran Linux in September of 2006 (Ubuntu Dapper).  At the moment
> > I'm running Ubuntu Karmic Alpha 4 and the same bug just walloped me
> > hard.
>
> [skipped]
>
> > PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
> > intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
> > double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.
> >
> > End the madness?  Please?
> >
> > Jim March - just a poor user...
> Seems like it as Ubuntu related issue. I often run applications (mostly
> games) that switch screen resolution, and GNOME panel doesn't get messed
> up. ALT Linux Desktop distribution.

Sorry. Reproduced the issue on my machine, too. Needed to switch the

video-mode thru a control center application.

--
  Alexey "Ktirf" Rusakov
  GNOME Project
  ALT Linux Team


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[Andy Owen-3]

On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 19:08 -0700, Jim March wrote:
> My laptop runs 1280x800 resolution.  I just ran an app that seems to
> have re-sized me a lot smaller while it was running - 800x600 at a
> guess.  When I came back out, resolution went back to normal but my
> panel is absolutely scrambled to hell and gone.

Is this the bug?

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492315

That seems like the closest I can find to it on bugzilla... so if that
isn't it, then a much more constructive way of getting it looked at
would be to create a bug report. Or add any related information to that
bug report, if it is describing the same thing.

>
> PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
> intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
> double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.

We all have our own frustrations. Obviously this bug isn't intolerable,
because plenty of people tolerate it (or are like me and don't even
realise it exists). What I would suggest as a better way of getting it
fixed is to take your request to the right people. I don't think the
usability list is a great place for bug reports (e.g. if your mouse
doesn't work, although that is a bit of a usability problem, this list
probably isn't going to be much help).

Bugzilla is the best way to start out. Otherwise, you might be able to
catch a developer on irc and if you are extra nice to them, maybe they
will hear your plea and take some time to fix it for you. But just
remember that this is probably not a bug that affects them, since
otherwise they would have fixed it already.

When I think about the problem, it is somewhat tricky, in that there are
some corner cases which are tough to figure out. For example, what if
your panel is really full, and you bump the resolution down? What if you
change resolution from A to B to C and back to A. Should this return all
your icons to exactly the same spot? What about if you go from A to B,
move an icon, then back to A? Answering these questions comprehensively
is difficult, even if your intuition says that it is obvious.

>
> End the madness?  Please?
>
> Jim March - just a poor user...
> _______________________________________________
> Usability mailing list
> Usability@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

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[Simos Xenitellis-4]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Andy
Owen<andy-gnome-usability@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 19:08 -0700, Jim March wrote:
>> My laptop runs 1280x800 resolution.  I just ran an app that seems to
>> have re-sized me a lot smaller while it was running - 800x600 at a
>> guess.  When I came back out, resolution went back to normal but my
>> panel is absolutely scrambled to hell and gone.
>
> Is this the bug?
>
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492315
>
> That seems like the closest I can find to it on bugzilla... so if that
> isn't it, then a much more constructive way of getting it looked at
> would be to create a bug report. Or add any related information to that
> bug report, if it is describing the same thing.
>
>>
>> PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
>> intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
>> double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.
>
> We all have our own frustrations. Obviously this bug isn't intolerable,
> because plenty of people tolerate it (or are like me and don't even
> realise it exists). What I would suggest as a better way of getting it
> fixed is to take your request to the right people. I don't think the
> usability list is a great place for bug reports (e.g. if your mouse
> doesn't work, although that is a bit of a usability problem, this list
> probably isn't going to be much help).
>
> Bugzilla is the best way to start out. Otherwise, you might be able to
> catch a developer on irc and if you are extra nice to them, maybe they
> will hear your plea and take some time to fix it for you. But just
> remember that this is probably not a bug that affects them, since
> otherwise they would have fixed it already.
>
> When I think about the problem, it is somewhat tricky, in that there are
> some corner cases which are tough to figure out. For example, what if
> your panel is really full, and you bump the resolution down? What if you
> change resolution from A to B to C and back to A. Should this return all
> your icons to exactly the same spot? What about if you go from A to B,
> move an icon, then back to A? Answering these questions comprehensively
> is difficult, even if your intuition says that it is obvious.
>

The way to push this forward is to contribute something towards the
relevant bug report.
A contribution that Jim could make is to describe verbosely what
behaviour should be expected
for the cases that you describe above. This can initiate discussion,
lead to agreement and a developer
can take up and implement.

I have been hit by this bug as well. It's sadly common when you have
dual head configurations,
where the size of the external monitor is smaller. When the panel gets
crowded, you cannot move it to another
screen; there is no free space on the panel so that you drag it
around. How can we solve this issue in usability terms?

Simos
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[Dokuro-2]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Jim March<1.jim.march@...> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I'm writing this after watching this same bug drive me nuts since I
> first ran Linux in September of 2006 (Ubuntu Dapper).  At the moment
> I'm running Ubuntu Karmic Alpha 4 and the same bug just walloped me
> hard.
>
> Why can't panel items stay put even if something re-sizes the desktop
> (resolution) smaller and then I move it back up?  And please do NOT
> tell me "lock to panel" works.  Don't even.

I get that too if i switch monitors with different size (for office test)
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[Dokuro-2]

I don't know if there is a widget that holds launcher icons on a
gnome's (top/bottom) bar, if there is the solution relies in using it,
that way all the launchers would not be moved from their position on a
resize (since the hole container is the one being moved), launchers
that are just added with no special place would have to be all around
on a resize

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Simos
Xenitellis<simos.lists@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Andy
> Owen<andy-gnome-usability@...> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 19:08 -0700, Jim March wrote:
>>> My laptop runs 1280x800 resolution.  I just ran an app that seems to
>>> have re-sized me a lot smaller while it was running - 800x600 at a
>>> guess.  When I came back out, resolution went back to normal but my
>>> panel is absolutely scrambled to hell and gone.
>>
>> Is this the bug?
>>
>> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492315
>>
>> That seems like the closest I can find to it on bugzilla... so if that
>> isn't it, then a much more constructive way of getting it looked at
>> would be to create a bug report. Or add any related information to that
>> bug report, if it is describing the same thing.
>>
>>>
>>> PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
>>> intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
>>> double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.
>>
>> We all have our own frustrations. Obviously this bug isn't intolerable,
>> because plenty of people tolerate it (or are like me and don't even
>> realise it exists). What I would suggest as a better way of getting it
>> fixed is to take your request to the right people. I don't think the
>> usability list is a great place for bug reports (e.g. if your mouse
>> doesn't work, although that is a bit of a usability problem, this list
>> probably isn't going to be much help).
>>
>> Bugzilla is the best way to start out. Otherwise, you might be able to
>> catch a developer on irc and if you are extra nice to them, maybe they
>> will hear your plea and take some time to fix it for you. But just
>> remember that this is probably not a bug that affects them, since
>> otherwise they would have fixed it already.
>>
>> When I think about the problem, it is somewhat tricky, in that there are
>> some corner cases which are tough to figure out. For example, what if
>> your panel is really full, and you bump the resolution down? What if you
>> change resolution from A to B to C and back to A. Should this return all
>> your icons to exactly the same spot? What about if you go from A to B,
>> move an icon, then back to A? Answering these questions comprehensively
>> is difficult, even if your intuition says that it is obvious.
>>
>
> The way to push this forward is to contribute something towards the
> relevant bug report.
> A contribution that Jim could make is to describe verbosely what
> behaviour should be expected
> for the cases that you describe above. This can initiate discussion,
> lead to agreement and a developer
> can take up and implement.
>
> I have been hit by this bug as well. It's sadly common when you have
> dual head configurations,
> where the size of the external monitor is smaller. When the panel gets
> crowded, you cannot move it to another
> screen; there is no free space on the panel so that you drag it
> around. How can we solve this issue in usability terms?
>
> Simos
> _______________________________________________
> Usability mailing list
> Usability@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
>

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[Dylan McCall]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Dokuro<dario.soto@...> wrote:

> I don't know if there is a widget that holds launcher icons on a
> gnome's (top/bottom) bar, if there is the solution relies in using it,
> that way all the launchers would not be moved from their position on a
> resize (since the hole container is the one being moved), launchers
> that are just added with no special place would have to be all around
> on a resize
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Simos
> Xenitellis<simos.lists@...> wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Andy
>> Owen<andy-gnome-usability@...> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 19:08 -0700, Jim March wrote:
>>>> My laptop runs 1280x800 resolution.  I just ran an app that seems to
>>>> have re-sized me a lot smaller while it was running - 800x600 at a
>>>> guess.  When I came back out, resolution went back to normal but my
>>>> panel is absolutely scrambled to hell and gone.
>>>
>>> Is this the bug?
>>>
>>> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492315
>>>
>>> That seems like the closest I can find to it on bugzilla... so if that
>>> isn't it, then a much more constructive way of getting it looked at
>>> would be to create a bug report. Or add any related information to that
>>> bug report, if it is describing the same thing.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> PLEASE, for the love of God, there has to be a fix for this?  It's
>>>> intolerable.  And after three years that I know of and likely over
>>>> double that with this insane glitch, there's just no excuse.
>>>
>>> We all have our own frustrations. Obviously this bug isn't intolerable,
>>> because plenty of people tolerate it (or are like me and don't even
>>> realise it exists). What I would suggest as a better way of getting it
>>> fixed is to take your request to the right people. I don't think the
>>> usability list is a great place for bug reports (e.g. if your mouse
>>> doesn't work, although that is a bit of a usability problem, this list
>>> probably isn't going to be much help).
>>>
>>> Bugzilla is the best way to start out. Otherwise, you might be able to
>>> catch a developer on irc and if you are extra nice to them, maybe they
>>> will hear your plea and take some time to fix it for you. But just
>>> remember that this is probably not a bug that affects them, since
>>> otherwise they would have fixed it already.
>>>
>>> When I think about the problem, it is somewhat tricky, in that there are
>>> some corner cases which are tough to figure out. For example, what if
>>> your panel is really full, and you bump the resolution down? What if you
>>> change resolution from A to B to C and back to A. Should this return all
>>> your icons to exactly the same spot? What about if you go from A to B,
>>> move an icon, then back to A? Answering these questions comprehensively
>>> is difficult, even if your intuition says that it is obvious.
>>>
>>
>> The way to push this forward is to contribute something towards the
>> relevant bug report.
>> A contribution that Jim could make is to describe verbosely what
>> behaviour should be expected
>> for the cases that you describe above. This can initiate discussion,
>> lead to agreement and a developer
>> can take up and implement.
>>
>> I have been hit by this bug as well. It's sadly common when you have
>> dual head configurations,
>> where the size of the external monitor is smaller. When the panel gets
>> crowded, you cannot move it to another
>> screen; there is no free space on the panel so that you drag it
>> around. How can we solve this issue in usability terms?
>>
>> Simos
>> _______________________________________________
>> Usability mailing list
>> Usability@...
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
>>
> _______________________________________________
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>

(Sorry for the double message, Dokuro. I miss Evolution...)


The proper, original bug report is here:
<http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341441>
In that bug report, a patch for the issue is mentioned. The patch is
at <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=51170&action=view>, on
bug #314235. It could use more testing, but it sounds good. It would
be a nice fix to sneak into 2.28 :)

Bye,
Dylan
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[Jim March]

Look at it from a user's point of view: I set my screen/panel layouts
up.  That's my work.  Nobody has a right to destroy it.

To ignore this bug for 3+ years means that at a fundamental level,
Gnome doesn't care about that.

And THAT is horrifying.

Jim
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[Olav Vitters]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:46:12AM -0700, Jim March wrote:
> To ignore this bug for 3+ years means that at a fundamental level,
> Gnome doesn't care about that.

Please don't forget about:
http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct
 - "Assume people mean well"

I know the author who currently maintains gnome-panel. The mentioned bug
is very difficult to solve correctly. Further, there are loads of
bugreports in all the modules he maintains. Still an annoying bug. But
still: your statement to me comes across as very self-centered.

Suggest to keep this thread productive as I don't want to close it.

--
Regards,
Olav
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[natan yellin]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Jim March <1.jim.march@...> wrote:

Look at it from a user's point of view: I set my screen/panel layouts
up.  That's my work.  Nobody has a right to destroy it.

To ignore this bug for 3+ years means that at a fundamental level,
Gnome doesn't care about that.

There is no one collective "Gnome" that cares or doesn't care. Gnome is made up of a lot of developers, many of which spend their free time contributing. We're all human, every single one of us is short on time, and when things slip through the cracks it's certainly not due to ill intent.

And THAT is horrifying.

Do you have any idea for preventing things like this from happening in the future? (Or even for guaranteeing that the bug gets fixed now.) If so, I'd love to be enlightened.

Jim

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Cheers,

Natan

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[Jim March]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Olav Vitters<olav@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:46:12AM -0700, Jim March wrote:
>> To ignore this bug for 3+ years means that at a fundamental level,
>> Gnome doesn't care about that.
>
> Please don't forget about:
> http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct
>  - "Assume people mean well"
>
> I know the author who currently maintains gnome-panel. The mentioned bug
> is very difficult to solve correctly. Further, there are loads of
> bugreports in all the modules he maintains. Still an annoying bug. But
> still: your statement to me comes across as very self-centered.

Look, I'm sorry...yesterday I had my panel scramble BIG right at a bad
time as I was doing a demo and I pretty much blew up.  Three years of
wrangling with this just...added up.

And as I'd assumed (correctly), there was already a full bug report.

The real solution is basically a small database, a set of entries
showing where stuff goes.  The "lock to panel" thing was likely an
attempted hack related to this issue (at least in part) and it hasn't
worked.
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[Vadim Peretokin]

Frankly, I've yet to see a single yet besides you who makes such a big fuss over their panel.

Your behavior about this is more horrifying than the error that barely anyone notices.

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[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Vadim Peretokin<vperetokin@...> wrote:
> Frankly, I've yet to see a single yet besides you who makes such a big fuss
> over their panel.
>
> Your behavior about this is more horrifying than the error that barely
> anyone notices.
>

Then you haven't paid close enough attention as we have had many
problems reported with the panel here. We haven't seen the one the OP
is talking about, but many, many others.

- Mark
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[Dokuro-2]

so there is a widget called drawer (cajon espanish) the problem with
it is that, is another icon, instead of a space on the panel (like
windows users are used to) it would be easyer (maybe even a bit more
usefull) if it was fixed panel space for icons because you can always
see the launchers you have there (1 click less)

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Vadim Peretokin<vperetokin@...> wrote:

> Frankly, I've yet to see a single yet besides you who makes such a big fuss
> over their panel.
>
> Your behavior about this is more horrifying than the error that barely
> anyone notices.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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[Greg K Nicholson-4]

Xfce gets this right. They use ordering and spacers instead of
positioning and locking.

gnome-panel won't exist come Gnome 3, so this bug will be moot in a year's time.
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[Calum Benson]

On 20 Aug 2009, at 20:51, Vadim Peretokin wrote:

> Frankly, I've yet to see a single yet besides you who makes such a  
> big fuss
> over their panel.

To be fair, we've heard a lot of complaints about it at Sun over the  
years, too, where people are frequently hot-desking between hardware  
that supports different resolutions.

Unfortunately, as others have said, it's a difficult problem to solve  
well, and not one we've ever really had time to look into ourselves.  
At this stage, it might well be more productive to focus on making  
sure that similar issues don't afflict GNOME 3.x.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@...            OpenSolaris Desktop Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum             [phone]

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems

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[Antonio-76]

I thought that this issue is fixed:
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/44082

And fix will be coming upstream in Karmic.
___________________
Anton Kerezov
ankere.wordpress.com

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[John at Darkstar]

A fix? Nice! :D
I'm impressed what you make, just had to say so!
John

Anton Kerezov wrote:

> I thought that this issue is fixed:
> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/44082
>
> And fix will be coming upstream in Karmic.
> ___________________
> Anton Kerezov
> ankere.wordpress.com <http://ankere.wordpress.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Jacob Beauregard]

I haven't looked at the patch, but the way its described, it sounds like
there will still be a lot of holes to fill.
Saving position of panel applets between different resolutions.

At first it sounds like it can only screw up once per resolution change,
though it definitely handles the most frequently occurring problems.

Then there's the question of what happens when you add and remove any
panel applets between resolution,
switch to other resolutions, etc. It doesn't sound like the best
solution, but it's certainly a vast improvement, and better than nothing.

> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:52:26 +0200
> From: John at Darkstar <vacuum@...>
> To: Gnome Usability <usability@...>
> Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome's biggest failure. By far. Stone-cold
> evil.
> Message-ID: <4A9CD2BA.9060803@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> A fix? Nice! :D
> I'm impressed what you make, just had to say so!
> John
>
> Anton Kerezov wrote:
>  
>> I thought that this issue is fixed:
>> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/44082
>>
>> And fix will be coming upstream in Karmic.
>> ___________________
>> Anton Kerezov
>> ankere.wordpress.com <http://ankere.wordpress.com>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Usability@...
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
>>    
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
>
> End of Usability Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1
> ****************************************
>
>  

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