Gnome applications and .bash_profile

It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.  

But how?  Here's the invocation chain from login down to evolution -- no
shells here.

 1710 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
14284 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/gdm-simple-slave --display-id /org/gnome/Disp
14285 tty7     Ss+    0:43      \_ /usr/bin/Xorg :0 -br -verbose -auth /var/run/gdm/auth-
14366 ?        S      0:00      \_ pam: gdm-password
14413 ?        Ssl    0:00          \_ gnome-session
14523 ?        Sl     0:00              \_ metacity
14536 ?        S      0:00              \_ gnome-panel
14537 ?        S      0:00              \_ nautilus
14542 ?        S      0:00              \_ /bin/sh /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/run-mozilla.s
14651 ?        Sl     0:41              |   \_ /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/firefox
14543 ?        Sl     0:17              \_ evolution

What am I missing?

Thanks - jon




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[Mikkel L. Ellertson]

Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
> to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
> evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.  
>
It depends on the type of shell. Only a login shell reads
.bash_profile. If you are starting a (x)terminal, and launching the
program from there, the default is not to run your as a login shell.

Mikkel
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[Didar Hossain]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Mikkel <mikkel@...> wrote:
> Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
>> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
>> to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
>> evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.
>>
> It depends on the type of shell. Only a login shell reads
> .bash_profile. If you are starting a (x)terminal, and launching the
> program from there, the default is not to run your as a login shell.

Stuff that you need defined irrespective of the type of shell should go in
~/.bashrc

Didar

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[Didar Hossain]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Didar Hossain <didar.hossain@...> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Mikkel <mikkel@...> wrote:
>> Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
>>> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
>>> to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
>>> evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.
>>>
>> It depends on the type of shell. Only a login shell reads
>> .bash_profile. If you are starting a (x)terminal, and launching the
>> program from there, the default is not to run your as a login shell.
>
> Stuff that you need defined irrespective of the type of shell should go in
> ~/.bashrc

Correction: ~/.bashrc is for non-login shells *only*. So, you will need to put
the stuff in both ~/.bashrc and ~/.bash_profile

Didar

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[suvayu ali]

On Sunday 01 November 2009 01:31 AM, Didar Hossain wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Didar Hossain<didar.hossain@...>  wrote:
>>
>> Stuff that you need defined irrespective of the type of shell should go in
>> ~/.bashrc
>
> Correction: ~/.bashrc is for non-login shells *only*. So, you will need to put
> the stuff in both ~/.bashrc and ~/.bash_profile

... or put this in your .bash_profile and have everything in your .bashrc ;)

if [ -f ~/.bashrc ]; then
        . ~/.bashrc
fi

> Didar
>
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[Steven W. Orr]

On 10/31/09 03:39, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:
> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible to
> applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example evolution
> knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.
>
> But how?  Here's the invocation chain from login down to evolution -- no
> shells here.

This is an old and stupid problem. When you log in you should have your
environment fully defined. The environment is basically all of your
environment variables. They should all be defined in exactly one place: Your
~/.bash_profile and nowhere else.

I run kde so I can't tell you what I would do to fix it. I log in and my
environment is defined because kde actually works.

If you log in using gdm and your environment is not defined then my advise is
not going to be pretty.

1. You can file a bug. I encourage this. It is broken behavior and should be
fixed.

Option B. Start debugging the problem. The idea is to start putting echo
statements in your /etc/profile and your ~/.bash_profile with the goal of
creating a new file in /etc/X11/xinit.d to see where you can source in your
/etc/profile followed by sourcing in your ~/.bash_profile. You should append
to a logfile in /tmp and make sure to delete the file before logging out.

echo "$(date): Hello from /etc/profile" >> /tmp/login

You might be able to say something simple in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc-common like

f=/etc/profile
[[ -f $f ]] && . $f
f=~/.bash_profile
[[ -f $f ]] && . $f

IT IS WRONG to set environment variables in your .bashrc unless you really
know what you're doing. Most people don't. IT IS WRONG to have to run a
terminal emulator program with the idea that it should be a login shell. ALL
PROGRAMS use the environment, not just terminal emulators. If you log in then
your environment should be defined.

I don't use gnome but I'm very surprised that this is still an issue.

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individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
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[suvayu ali]

Hi Steven,

On Sunday 01 November 2009 09:32 PM, Steven W. Orr wrote:
> On 10/31/09 03:39, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:
>
> IT IS WRONG to set environment variables in your .bashrc unless you really
> know what you're doing. Most people don't. IT IS WRONG to have to run a
> terminal emulator program with the idea that it should be a login shell. ALL
> PROGRAMS use the environment, not just terminal emulators. If you log in then
> your environment should be defined.
>

What is your comment on the method I posted, have your .bash_profile
source your .bashrc ? That way you have a consistent environment every
time, irrespective of whether I am at an xterm or VT or simply running
some GUI app from a menu or icon. (I am of course assuming my desktop
environment sources my .bash_profile, as it should, when I login :) )

Would you say that is a proper way to do things?

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On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 21:34 -0500, Mikkel wrote:
> Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
> > It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
> > to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
> > evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.  
> >
> It depends on the type of shell. Only a login shell reads
> .bash_profile. If you are starting a (x)terminal, and launching the
> program from there, the default is not to run your as a login shell.

Thanks to all for your advice on this.  However I have a *question* and
not a *problem*.  I have LC_COLLATE=POSIX in .bash_profile and not
in .bashrc, and everything is working just as I would like it to.  If I
find problems in the future, I may move it into .bashrc, which is
invoked from .bash_profile, in exactly the way that Suvayu Ali
recommended; this method is in the standard .bash_profile located
in /etc/skel.

My *question* is what process is reading .bash_profile and acquiring
LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Let me repeat it:

The invocation chain for evolution, namely:

$ ps fax
...
 1710 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
14284 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/gdm-simple-slave --display-id /org/gnome/Disp
14285 tty7     Ss+    0:43      \_ /usr/bin/Xorg :0 -br -verbose -auth /var/run/gdm/auth-
14366 ?        S      0:00      \_ pam: gdm-password
14413 ?        Ssl    0:00          \_ gnome-session
14523 ?        Sl     0:00              \_ metacity
14536 ?        S      0:00              \_ gnome-panel
14537 ?        S      0:00              \_ nautilus
14542 ?        S      0:00              \_ /bin/sh /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/run-mozilla.s
14651 ?        Sl     0:41              |   \_ /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/firefox
14543 ?        Sl     0:17              \_ evolution
...

doesn't show a shell of any kind anywhere between gdm, which manages the
login screen, and evolution, which knows that LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Very
likely the good guy is gnome-session.  Maybe I should examine the
gnome-session code (What's open source for, anyway?), but I have been
too lazy.

Thanks to all - jon


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[Steven W. Orr]

On 11/02/09 04:28, quoth Suvayu Ali:

> Hi Steven,
>
> On Sunday 01 November 2009 09:32 PM, Steven W. Orr wrote:
>> On 10/31/09 03:39, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:
>>
>> IT IS WRONG to set environment variables in your .bashrc unless you
>> really
>> know what you're doing. Most people don't. IT IS WRONG to have to run a
>> terminal emulator program with the idea that it should be a login
>> shell. ALL
>> PROGRAMS use the environment, not just terminal emulators. If you log
>> in then
>> your environment should be defined.
>>
>
> What is your comment on the method I posted, have your .bash_profile
> source your .bashrc ? That way you have a consistent environment every
> time, irrespective of whether I am at an xterm or VT or simply running
> some GUI app from a menu or icon. (I am of course assuming my desktop
> environment sources my .bash_profile, as it should, when I login :) )
>
> Would you say that is a proper way to do things?
>

It is correct that the .bash_profile should source in the .bashrc but it is
wrong for a terminal emulator to be executed as a login process to account for
gdm's deficiency.

First of all your .bash_profile should source in your .bashrc or else you
won't get any of your bashrc content in your login process. Starting a login
process must run your .bash_profile and starting a sub shell process must run
the .bashrc  This means that the .bashrc must be run by the .bash_profile or
else the login process will never get any of your local aliases, functions and
variable settings.

This confuses a lot of people:

* When you log in, the login process must define the environment. This is done
by sucking in the ~/.bash_profile after the /etc/profile

* The ~/.bashrc is sucked in automatically only by sub shells. To get bashrc
content added to your login shell, the ~/.bash_profile must pull in the ~/.bashrc

* The /etc/bashrc is not run by the system. The user is responsible for doing
this himself. In your ~/.bashrc should be a line that says:
  . /etc/bashrc

All of what I describe above is how things should be done, but it is *wrong*
for the gdm login process to not run the correct files for you in the first
place. That is why I have showed you how to go about the process of fixing it
properly. You need to see about pulling in the /etc/profile and
~/.bash_profile from the /etc/X11/xinit system. You will *probably* be able to
add a file (maybe call it) /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/00_bash_init.sh  It should
say something like what I mentioned above. I recommend *not* making it
executable even though all of the files in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d are. This
just confuses people more. Sourced files are not executed; they are read into
a current shell.

If you do it wrong then you will be putting a crappy bandage on a system that
is capable of much elegance. The whole point of environment variables is to
define what *all* child processes will inherit. Look at the env command. It's
not about what you see as being used by bash. It's about what the getenv(3)
and setenv(3) runtime calls make available to all child processes,
irrespective of what language they are written in. The environment is agnostic
about linguistics.

Let's look at an example. In my environment, I define XFILESEARCHPATH and
XUSERFILESEARCHPATH. If I do it then my applications will start up with the
correct set of resources. If I don't then they will not. But what I will not
accept is that I must start my applications from a terminal emulator that was
artificially started with a --login option. That's just silly. If I want to
create a button that run my application then I expect that button to be
running in the proper environment that has those variables set to the values
that I have defined.

Make sense?

--
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happened but none stranger than this. Does your driver's license say Organ ..0
Donor?Black holes are where God divided by zero. Listen to me! We are all- 000
individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
steveo at syslang.net



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[Steven W. Orr]

On 11/02/09 12:20, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:

> On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 21:34 -0500, Mikkel wrote:
>> Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
>>> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible to
>>> applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
>>> evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.
>>>
>> It depends on the type of shell. Only a login shell reads .bash_profile.
>> If you are starting a (x)terminal, and launching the program from there,
>> the default is not to run your as a login shell.
>
> Thanks to all for your advice on this.  However I have a *question* and not
> a *problem*.  I have LC_COLLATE=POSIX in .bash_profile and not in .bashrc,
> and everything is working just as I would like it to.  If I find problems
> in the future, I may move it into .bashrc, which is invoked from
> .bash_profile, in exactly the way that Suvayu Ali recommended; this method
> is in the standard .bash_profile located in /etc/skel.
>
> My *question* is what process is reading .bash_profile and acquiring
> LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Let me repeat it:
>
> The invocation chain for evolution, namely:
>
> $ ps fax ... 1710 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm-binary -nodaemon 14284
> ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/gdm-simple-slave --display-id
> /org/gnome/Disp 14285 tty7     Ss+    0:43      \_ /usr/bin/Xorg :0 -br
> -verbose -auth /var/run/gdm/auth- 14366 ?        S      0:00      \_ pam:
> gdm-password 14413 ?        Ssl    0:00          \_ gnome-session 14523 ?
> Sl     0:00              \_ metacity 14536 ?        S      0:00
> \_ gnome-panel 14537 ?        S      0:00              \_ nautilus 14542 ?
> S      0:00              \_ /bin/sh /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/run-mozilla.s
> 14651 ?        Sl     0:41              |   \_
> /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/firefox 14543 ?        Sl     0:17              \_
> evolution ...
>
> doesn't show a shell of any kind anywhere between gdm, which manages the
> login screen, and evolution, which knows that LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Very
> likely the good guy is gnome-session.  Maybe I should examine the
> gnome-session code (What's open source for, anyway?), but I have been too
> lazy.
>
> Thanks to all - jon
>
>

Great question. The answer is that if gnome-session is not a bash process then
it is probably the result of a bash process that became gnome-session after
running the xinit component and then doing an exec. The exec results in
gnome-session and preservation of the established environment.

See my reply to Suvayu dated 12:57 EST.



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individuals! What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
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On Mon, 2009-11-02 at 13:03 -0500, Steven W. Orr wrote:
> On 11/02/09 12:20, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:

> > My *question* is what process is reading .bash_profile and acquiring
> > LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Let me repeat it:
> >
> > The invocation chain for evolution, namely:
> > <deleted...>
> > doesn't show a shell of any kind anywhere between gdm, which manages the
> > login screen, and evolution, which knows that LC_COLLATE=POSIX.  Very
> > likely the good guy is gnome-session.  Maybe I should examine the
> > gnome-session code (What's open source for, anyway?), but I have been too
> > lazy.
> >
> > Thanks to all - jon
> >
> >
>
> Great question. The answer is that if gnome-session is not a bash process then
> it is probably the result of a bash process that became gnome-session after
> running the xinit component and then doing an exec. The exec results in
> gnome-session and preservation of the established environment.
>
> See my reply to Suvayu dated 12:57 EST.

Your theory that gnome-session is exec-ed by bash is a reasonable one.
It appears that gnome, at least, is sourcing in the environment
variables (LC_COLLATE at least) as you say it should, which would make
it unnecessary to source them in *again* in each individual shell.
Except, of course, that the method that gnome uses to acquire them is
that they be in .bash_login.

Interesting.

Thanks - jon



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[suvayu ali]

Hi Steven,

Steven W. Orr wrote:

> On 11/02/09 04:28, quoth Suvayu Ali:
>> Hi Steven,
>>
>> On Sunday 01 November 2009 09:32 PM, Steven W. Orr wrote:
>>> On 10/31/09 03:39, quoth Jonathan Ryshpan:
>>>
>>> IT IS WRONG to set environment variables in your .bashrc unless you
>>> really
>>> know what you're doing. Most people don't. IT IS WRONG to have to run a
>>> terminal emulator program with the idea that it should be a login
>>> shell. ALL
>>> PROGRAMS use the environment, not just terminal emulators. If you log
>>> in then
>>> your environment should be defined.
>>>
>> What is your comment on the method I posted, have your .bash_profile
>> source your .bashrc ? That way you have a consistent environment every
>> time, irrespective of whether I am at an xterm or VT or simply running
>> some GUI app from a menu or icon. (I am of course assuming my desktop
>> environment sources my .bash_profile, as it should, when I login :) )
>>
>> Would you say that is a proper way to do things?
>>
>
> It is correct that the .bash_profile should source in the .bashrc but it is
> wrong for a terminal emulator to be executed as a login process to account for
> gdm's deficiency.
>
> First of all your .bash_profile should source in your .bashrc or else you
> won't get any of your bashrc content in your login process. Starting a login
> process must run your .bash_profile and starting a sub shell process must run
> the .bashrc  This means that the .bashrc must be run by the .bash_profile or
> else the login process will never get any of your local aliases, functions and
> variable settings.
>
> This confuses a lot of people:
>
> * When you log in, the login process must define the environment. This is done
> by sucking in the ~/.bash_profile after the /etc/profile
>
> * The ~/.bashrc is sucked in automatically only by sub shells. To get bashrc
> content added to your login shell, the ~/.bash_profile must pull in the ~/.bashrc
>
> * The /etc/bashrc is not run by the system. The user is responsible for doing
> this himself. In your ~/.bashrc should be a line that says:
>   . /etc/bashrc
>
> All of what I describe above is how things should be done, but it is *wrong*
> for the gdm login process to not run the correct files for you in the first
> place. That is why I have showed you how to go about the process of fixing it
> properly. You need to see about pulling in the /etc/profile and
> ~/.bash_profile from the /etc/X11/xinit system. You will *probably* be able to
> add a file (maybe call it) /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/00_bash_init.sh  It should
> say something like what I mentioned above. I recommend *not* making it
> executable even though all of the files in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d are. This
> just confuses people more. Sourced files are not executed; they are read into
> a current shell.
>

I know what you mean. I have to do a lot of data analysis at the
university and we use a really complex framework written in C++, called
ATHENA. To ensure all the various sub-packages /behave/ with each other
we use environment variables controlled with lots of sourced shell
scripts. Its really amazing and extremely elegant way of controlling how
things behave. :)

> If you do it wrong then you will be putting a crappy bandage on a system that
> is capable of much elegance. The whole point of environment variables is to
> define what *all* child processes will inherit. Look at the env command. It's
> not about what you see as being used by bash. It's about what the getenv(3)
> and setenv(3) runtime calls make available to all child processes,
> irrespective of what language they are written in. The environment is agnostic
> about linguistics.
>
> Let's look at an example. In my environment, I define XFILESEARCHPATH and
> XUSERFILESEARCHPATH. If I do it then my applications will start up with the
> correct set of resources. If I don't then they will not. But what I will not
> accept is that I must start my applications from a terminal emulator that was
> artificially started with a --login option. That's just silly. If I want to
> create a button that run my application then I expect that button to be
> running in the proper environment that has those variables set to the values
> that I have defined.
>
> Make sense?
>

Thank you for this entire reply Steven. All the subtleties you mentioned
makes a lot of sense. Following these simple rules makes everything work
consistently whether its being run from an xterm, VT or from a button on
my desktop. I'll try to go over what you said again and try to keep
those in mind while investigating any future issues and will definitely
try to include any such information in any bug report I contribute to.
Thanks a lot, learned a lot. :)

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[glb-2]

hi.

I just want to report one issue which I just observed.

In FC11 file browser, when I click Edit-> Preference the window disappears.

I am wondering whether its some config issue or some bug ?

I am using core 2 due, 4GB, ASUS notebook.


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[Allen Halsey]

Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh <at> pacbell.net> writes:

>
> It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
> to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
> evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.  
>
> But how?  Here's the invocation chain from login down to evolution -- no
> shells here.
>
>  1710 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
> 14284 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/gdm-simple-slave --display-id

/org/gnome/Disp
> 14285 tty7     Ss+    0:43      \_ /usr/bin/Xorg :0 -br -verbose -auth
/var/run/gdm/auth-
> 14366 ?        S      0:00      \_ pam: gdm-password
> 14413 ?        Ssl    0:00          \_ gnome-session
> 14523 ?        Sl     0:00              \_ metacity
> 14536 ?        S      0:00              \_ gnome-panel
> 14537 ?        S      0:00              \_ nautilus
> 14542 ?        S      0:00              \_ /bin/sh
/usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/run-mozilla.s
> 14651 ?        Sl     0:41              |   \_ /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.4/firefox
> 14543 ?        Sl     0:17              \_ evolution
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thanks - jon
>


See this excellent post by Chris Tyler where he explores the sequence of events
leading to execution of .bash_profile:

http://dailypackage.fedorabook.com/index.php?/archives/122-Wednesday-Why-Logins-and-Sessions.html

The critical line is in the /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession script:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$SSH_AGENT $DBUS_LAUNCH gnome-session"

where SHELL is bash.

Allen




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On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 02:02 +0000, Allen Halsey wrote:
> Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh <at> pacbell.net> writes:
> >
> > It looks like environment variables set in .bash_profile are visible
> > to applications started in gnome but not via a shell.  For example
> > evolution knows when I modify LC_COLLATE.  
> >
> > But how?  Here's the invocation chain from login down to evolution -- no
> > shells here...

> See this excellent post by Chris Tyler where he explores the sequence of events
> leading to execution of .bash_profile:
>
> http://dailypackage.fedorabook.com/index.php?/archives/122-Wednesday-Why-Logins-and-Sessions.html
>
> The critical line is in the /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession script:
>
>   exec -l $SHELL -c "$SSH_AGENT $DBUS_LAUNCH gnome-session"
>
> where SHELL is bash.

Thanks.  The article seems to be about the exact question I asked.
(Haven't had a chance to read it yet.)

jon


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