Goodbye

[Dave Hall-7]

Hi all,

I will keep my message here brief, but I am stepping down from all of my
roles within the project effectively immediately.  I have thought long
and hard about this decision.  You can read all about it on my blog at
http://davehall.com.au/blog/dave/2009/10/02/goodbye-phpgroupware

If people still want to continue the project I will assist with the
transition.  I am also available to assist with any shutdown.

Thanks everyone who I have worked with trying to make phpGW as awesome
as we could.

Cheers

Dave



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[Sigurd Nes]

Dave Hall wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I will keep my message here brief, but I am stepping down from all of my
> roles within the project effectively immediately.  I have thought long
> and hard about this decision.  You can read all about it on my blog at
> http://davehall.com.au/blog/dave/2009/10/02/goodbye-phpgroupware
>
> If people still want to continue the project I will assist with the
> transition.  I am also available to assist with any shutdown.
>
> Thanks everyone who I have worked with trying to make phpGW as awesome
> as we could.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>

Hi all,

Dave has meant a lot to the project - and I wish him well as he steps aside.

I think this is a opportunity to get out the 0.9.18 - or - why not make it 1.0

We have been busy developing the system and update the libraries in the API.
Though I have to admit the work has been focused on a sub-set of applications -
and some new ones.

Some highlights:

* It runs on php 5.3
* The UI on latest apps (and 'property') are using YUI 2.8.0
* SOAP and XMLRPC updated to latest (SOAP using native php server/client)
* LDAP working
* PDO - db abstraction
* support for localized translations (per domain)
* php functions can be invoked from templates.
* sensitive information in header.inc.php is (optionally) scrambled by mcrypt
* Excel/odf - export
* Excel read
* Interlink - linking items across the system
* SMS-gateway supporting webservice (SOAP and GET) and cellular(gnokii)
* Support for Help on each function (write as .odt - displayed as HTML)
* integration with handhelds
* and more...


We have currently 6 professional developers (project based) working on two new
modules - which integrates with the 'property'-module and general accounting
systems.

1) Booking - (public frontend/restricted backend) to handle resources available
for hire - as training facilities, concert halls, class rooms ...

2) Rental - specialized module for space rental


The municipal of Bergen is currently in a pilot phase for a new organization
(comprising 1 mill m2 of schools and institutions).

The ramp up project is stipulated to last for at least two more years.

Maybe we should have a new supersmart template engine...

I propose myself as the API-koordinator.

I also think we have to let parties that are willing to fund the project to play
a role at some level.

Regards

Sigurd


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[Chris Weiss-2]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Sigurd Nes <sigurdne@...> wrote:
>
> I propose myself as the API-koordinator.
>
> I also think we have to let parties that are willing to fund the project to play
> a role at some level.
>

I don't really have a problem with this, not that I think you should
ask me since I've basically been out of the loop for some years now,
but you need to keep in mind that the phpgw codebase is copyright the
USA based FSF and is a dotGNU project (which could probably change) so
there are legal limitations and such with what kind of licensing the
code in the project can have.  If this is OK, I say go for it, is
there is any question at all, a fork might actually be easier.

Does Dan still own the name, or did he finally turn that over to the FSF too?


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[Sigurd Nes]

Chris Weiss wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Sigurd Nes <sigurdne@...> wrote:
>> I propose myself as the API-koordinator.
>>
>> I also think we have to let parties that are willing to fund the project to play
>> a role at some level.
>>
>
> I don't really have a problem with this, not that I think you should
> ask me since I've basically been out of the loop for some years now,
> but you need to keep in mind that the phpgw codebase is copyright the
> USA based FSF and is a dotGNU project (which could probably change) so
> there are legal limitations and such with what kind of licensing the
> code in the project can have.  If this is OK, I say go for it, is
> there is any question at all, a fork might actually be easier.
>
> Does Dan still own the name, or did he finally turn that over to the FSF too?
>

All kode is GPL (or compatible) of my knowledge. The only issue is that I think
we should remain on GPLv2 in order to still be able to use felamimail. For that
we need permission from FSF - which as I undestand it  - could be granted.

Regards

Sigurd


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[Dave Hall-7]

On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 23:50 +0200, Sigurd Nes wrote:
> Chris Weiss wrote:
> >
> > Does Dan still own the name, or did he finally turn that over to the FSF too?

No Dan still owns the name.

> All kode is GPL (or compatible) of my knowledge. The only issue is that I think
> we should remain on GPLv2 in order to still be able to use felamimail. For that
> we need permission from FSF - which as I undestand it  - could be granted.

This has been explained to Sigurd in great detail by the FSF, they will
not revert the project's license to GPLv2.  They also have issues with
GNU packages using GPLv2 only code, which was also explained to Sigurd.

Cheers

Dave



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[Sigurd Nes]

Dave Hall wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 23:50 +0200, Sigurd Nes wrote:
>> Chris Weiss wrote:
>>> Does Dan still own the name, or did he finally turn that over to the FSF too?
>
> No Dan still owns the name.
>
>> All kode is GPL (or compatible) of my knowledge. The only issue is that I think
>> we should remain on GPLv2 in order to still be able to use felamimail. For that
>> we need permission from FSF - which as I undestand it  - could be granted.
>
> This has been explained to Sigurd in great detail by the FSF, they will
> not revert the project's license to GPLv2.  They also have issues with
> GNU packages using GPLv2 only code, which was also explained to Sigurd.
>

I think it could be feasible if I could have the chance so communicate with FSF
without having Dave blending in. It is as i understand not an absolute.
We all know Dave's position on this - but as he is stepping back - we could have
a go at it.

After all - better than dead.


Regards

Sigurd


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[Maât]

Dave Hall wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I will keep my message here brief, but I am stepping down from all of my
> roles within the project effectively immediately.  I have thought long
> and hard about this decision.  You can read all about it on my blog at
> http://davehall.com.au/blog/dave/2009/10/02/goodbye-phpgroupware
>
> If people still want to continue the project I will assist with the
> transition.  I am also available to assist with any shutdown.
>
> Thanks everyone who I have worked with trying to make phpGW as awesome
> as we could.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>  

hi Dave,

Sorry to see you go away from phpGroupWare from a phpGroupWare point of
view.

You have a very deep knowledge of phpGW internals and we'll probably
find we miss this in due term.

We are still maintaining ged electronic documents management module and
the now stable generic flow management system.

If there are enough people interrested in phpGW going on (and willing to
contribute even very slightly... we also need people that are not
killers in php coding) we could try to see what can be done to make it
grow again instead of shutting it down.

What do people think here ? (dont limit yourselves ;) )

Maât







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[Sigurd Nes]

Caeies wrote:
> So If contributors / users want to be "promoted" for the former Dave's
> Role, please let us know.
>

I'm in the race: I want to be promoted for the former Dave's Role.

Regards

Sigurd


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[Dan Kuykendall]

Hi all,

My preference at this point would be to shut down the project. It seems like the codebase is just too outdated. Maybe at somepoint it would be worth picking up and starting from scratch with all thats been learned both in phpGW and across all the various projects in the open source community these last 9+ years.

Anyways, if a clear vision can be had and a developer to continue it is around, then please contact me... otherwise a leaderless project is a dead one.

Dan

Dr. Christian Böttger wrote:

Hi,

Dave Hall schrieb:
  

I will keep my message here brief, but I am stepping down from all of my
roles within the project effectively immediately.  
  
    

Obviously, we all have to respect your decision. Nevertheless, it's a pity.

Thanks a lot for all your work for phpGW.

  

If people still want to continue the project I will assist with the
transition.  I am also available to assist with any shutdown.
  
    

Well, it would be sad if we had to shut down phpGW. The code base might
be a bit outdated (php4), but the concept of phpGW of being more that
just calendar, mail and addressbook is stil valid and rather unique.
Most "modern" groupware systems just focus on these "essentials" - it's
easier to maintain.

Unfortunately, I have no programming power at hand to contribute - I
myself am not a programmer any more...

Hope we find a way to continue

Regards

Christian aka bofh42


  

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[Sigurd Nes]

> From: Dan Kuykendall [dan@...]

> Sent: 2009-10-06 08:22:41 CEST
> To: coordinators@...
> Cc: phpGroupWare Developers [phpgroupware-developers@...], phpGroupWare Users [phpgroupware-users@...]
> Subject: Re: [phpGroupWare coordinators] Goodbye
>
> Hi all,
>
> My preference at this point would be to shut down the project. It seems
> like the codebase is just too outdated. Maybe at somepoint it would be
> worth picking up and starting from scratch with all thats been learned
> both in phpGW and across all the various projects in the open source
> community these last 9+ years.
>
> Anyways, if a clear vision can be had and a developer to continue it is
> around, then please contact me... otherwise a leaderless project is a
> dead one.
>
> Dan

Hi all,

I have plans for it and want to keep it alive.

I think the best approach will be to focus on the system as a general application development framework - starting with the API and some core modules (admin, setup, preferences).
I also think the majority of the existing applications without a minimum level of maintenance has to be put in a historical archive for future reference and a possible source of inspiration only.

Important features are:
 * user-handling
 * integration capabilities (xmlrpc/soap/ldap...)
 * building blocks for ui as super-objects prepared to utilize common elements (as tables, lists, calendars)
 * mechanism for internal integration across modules
 
I will fix the API (and core) to a usable state (running php 5.3) - and update to the latest 3-party libraries.

I think that once the system is in a shape that makes is possible to install and operate - it will attract developers and users.

Regards

Sigurd

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[Maât]

Dr. Christian Böttger wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Dave Hall schrieb:
>  
>> I will keep my message here brief, but I am stepping down from all of my
>> roles within the project effectively immediately.  
>>  
>>    
>
> Obviously, we all have to respect your decision. Nevertheless, it's a pity.
>
> Thanks a lot for all your work for phpGW.
>  

Same thoughts here :)


>> If people still want to continue the project I will assist with the
>> transition.  I am also available to assist with any shutdown.
>>  
>>    
>
> Well, it would be sad if we had to shut down phpGW. The code base might
> be a bit outdated (php4), but the concept of phpGW of being more that
> just calendar, mail and addressbook is stil valid and rather unique.
>  
Agreed for phpGW being unique

The code base still needs cleaning but that's not a complicated thing to
do. Provided a good "cleaning guide" even beginners could get in and
play with us all

> Most "modern" groupware systems just focus on these "essentials" - it's
> easier to maintain.
>  
these are mainly mail+agenda-wares

there are other needs (budget management, projet management, team
management) that could be focused by groupware suites

> Unfortunately, I have no programming power at hand to contribute - I
> myself am not a programmer any more...
>
>  
I maintain what i said long ago : we lacked documentation (nice user
guide, nice developper guide, nice code documentation) that prevented
people to get in et slowed people adoption of phpGW

We can chose to work on these things and part off them do not need
killer coding skills :)

we need people ready to write user documentation, people willing to
install, test, detect regressions, reproduce and classify bugs  before
passing them to coders

I think we also could do with a guy skilled with css and web "look and
feel"... that would not need php
> Hope we find a way to continue
>
> Regards
>
> Christian aka bofh42
There are unaddressed user needs... we could address them and try to
focus on software intelligence (workflows for example) as well as
ergonomy  (ajaxizing phpGW for example)

The main question is : are there enough of us left willing to continue
or not.

If the answer is "yes" we can then focus on team organization, election
of a leader and so on.

If the answer is "no"...

hope it will be "yes" :)



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[Maât]

Maât wrote:
----8<----

> The main question is : are there enough of us left willing to continue
> or not.
>
> If the answer is "yes" we can then focus on team organization, election
> of a leader and so on.
>
> If the answer is "no"...
>
> hope it will be "yes" :)
>  

Well... either we are not so many or everybody entered into winter sleep :)


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[Maât]

Sigurd Nes wrote:

>> From: Dan Kuykendall [dan@...]
>> Sent: 2009-10-06 08:22:41 CEST
>> To: coordinators@...
>> Cc: phpGroupWare Developers [phpgroupware-developers@...], phpGroupWare Users [phpgroupware-users@...]
>> Subject: Re: [phpGroupWare coordinators] Goodbye
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My preference at this point would be to shut down the project. It seems
>> like the codebase is just too outdated. Maybe at somepoint it would be
>> worth picking up and starting from scratch with all thats been learned
>> both in phpGW and across all the various projects in the open source
>> community these last 9+ years.
>>
>> Anyways, if a clear vision can be had and a developer to continue it is
>> around, then please contact me... otherwise a leaderless project is a
>> dead one.
>>
>> Dan
>>    
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have plans for it and want to keep it alive.
>
> I think the best approach will be to focus on the system as a general application development framework - starting with the API and some core modules (admin, setup, preferences).
>  

Every single framework does that... and many better than we do : Zend
first of them but also Symfony, drupal, eZ...

If we plan to gon on their scope we are dead...

> I also think the majority of the existing applications without a minimum level of maintenance has to be put in a historical archive for future reference and a possible source of inspiration only.
>  
That makes sense but the svn system as i re-organized it just need to
change the list of externals to let these module aside

> Important features are:
>  * user-handling
>  
Yes and there we'll need to put hard work

And part of this work will involve thinking about template system :
coders are often very poor interface designers

And good interface designers have often very poor php and xml skills.
Dreamweaver (sorry guys for the ugly word) and css and htmls are their
worlds.

Relying on current xsltemplate even if it's sexy on the paper  will
ensure  that zero descent web designer will be able to get in and help
us make nice  looking user interfaces.

As far as web design is concerned the previous phplib based  template
system was loads better.

>  * integration capabilities (xmlrpc/soap/ldap...)
>  
Agreed

>  * building blocks for ui as super-objects prepared to utilize common elements (as tables, lists, calendars)
>  
Not agreed

>  * mechanism for internal integration across modules
>  
Agreed a million times

> I will fix the API (and core) to a usable state (running php 5.3) - and update to the latest 3-party libraries.
>  
Ok on the goal but if we go on we'll have to discuss the method : i
don't wand to see a giant commit changing things everywhere whitout more
thant "Merge from my working company tree"

Suvbersion is all about keeping track of changes and helping bug hunting
by the means of changelog and commit date analysis

A million times okay for code fixing... but a million times not okay for
giant commits impossible to check

You probably did not even consider such commit... in this case please
accept my apologies for this part of my mail :)

> I think that once the system is in a shape that makes is possible to install and operate - it will attract developers and users.
>
> Regards
>
> Sigurd
>  
indeed having something that installs and works would be a nice idea :)

but if you want to attract devs ans users that will not be enough

we'll need documentation (people willing to write it) and user + dev
support (people willing to help people getting in... explaining things
again and again)

And till we have enough manpower to make separate teams for support and
developpement and doc writing and betatesting the remaining people will
have to be everywhere








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[Dan Kuykendall]

cw wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 13:31
> Does Dan still own the name, or did he finally turn that over to the FSF too?


I still own the trademark and the domain name. We did transfer most if not all of the code to the FSF quite some time back, so it needs to stay GPL/LGPL

Seek3rSent from the phpGroupWare forums @ http://forums.phpGroupWare.org


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