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Goodbye to copper?
by Scott Ehrlich-2
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I recently overheard a discussion from a FIOS tech saying at some
point in the near future the existing copper infrastructure is simply so old it will be ripped out, apparently forcing existing landline customers to switch to fiber...??? Didn't quite sound right, but maybe the backbone infrastructure (poles/street) will be making way to fiber? Was this tech telling the truth, providing an assumption, or maybe offering what he hopes might happen? Inquiring minds want to know... Thanks. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Dan Ritter-2
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 08:37:20PM -0400, Scott Ehrlich wrote:
> I recently overheard a discussion from a FIOS tech saying at some > point in the near future the existing copper infrastructure is simply > so old it will be ripped out, apparently forcing existing landline > customers to switch to fiber...??? Didn't quite sound right, but > maybe the backbone infrastructure (poles/street) will be making way to > fiber? > > Was this tech telling the truth, providing an assumption, or maybe > offering what he hopes might happen? Every time VZ puts in a FIOS deployment, they rip out the copper. This is because copper is regulated and must be re-sold to their competitors, but fiber is not. The next people to ask for a copper service (or a competitor) will have to pay for an all-new install. -dsr- -- http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference. You can't defend freedom by getting rid of it. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Jerry Feldman-2
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Not to get into the politics of copper vs. fibre, but this is true that
most of the infrastructure both telephone and cable TV/Internet is fibre. Basically, it is all about signal quality, bandwidth, and price. If I could get good bandwidth and reliability with tin cans and string, it would be an option. It really does not matter what technology is plugged into the home as long as it delivers the desired end-product. The copper telephone infrastructure was designed for analog voice. Originally, cable TV was essentially a unidirectional system, and early cable tv operators had to upgrade their entire infrastructure to accommodate the 2-way feature. This is whay most cable companies had very low upload bandwidths. Today, as mentioned, it is mostly fibre until the last mile. On 06/22/2009 09:15 PM, jay@... wrote: > Much of the back bone is already fiber. The copper is just the "last mile", basically the lines into the houses, on smaller streets and in rural markets. It will be decades before much of that last mile is replaced. Nor does it need to be in most cases. > > Now if the price of copper returns to the levels it saw last year, you may likely see new wiring switching to all fiber in the not to distant future. But at the moment its still at half the cost it was, and gigabit ethernet is fast enough for most people building new houses and small office buildings. > > As for forcing customers to "switch", this is just telco propaganda to scare customers into higher priced plans they don't need. Much like they used the "digital" tv switch to scare customers into high priced cable plans. They basically charge more for "digital" plans, even though it saves them billions to switch customers over. I'm not sure what level tech you over heard but many of the verizon fios techs don't know anything that isn't writen in their verizon books. Much like the geek squad, they are pretty hit or miss on skill level. > > -- Jerry Feldman <gaf@...> Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id: 537C5846 PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846 _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Jack Coats at coats.org
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If I wanted to DIY fiber, especially plastic, what does it take?
Any good 'how to' sites someone knows about? Any reasonable (i.e. cheap or diy or kit) ethernet to/from fiber transceivers easily available? TIA... _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Dan Ritter-2
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:54:38AM -0500, Jack Coats wrote:
> If I wanted to DIY fiber, especially plastic, what does it take? > > Any good 'how to' sites someone knows about? > > Any reasonable (i.e. cheap or diy or kit) ethernet to/from fiber > transceivers easily available? Erm. This is not a simple question. To begin with, how fast and how far? -dsr- -- http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference. You can't defend freedom by getting rid of it. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Jack Coats at coats.org
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I would like to go about 300' with at least 10Mbit ethernet. I have a
friend that needs about a 150' link and a 50 to 100'. This would allow him to get ethernet down to his shop (lots of ugly power things like welders and wood routers going on there). For me it is to keep away ground loop problems between buildings. If it is faster, that is better. Even if it is slower, that works for this application, but faster is always better :) Gigabit anyone? For most 'real application' I have, even 1 or 2Mbit would be more than adequate. Even knowing how to run a 50' or so at nice speeds might help some 'garage shop' kind of folks that want to connect computerized equipment to a network without dealing with some of the stray induced power issues. TIA... ><> ... Jack On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Dan Ritter<dsr@...> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:54:38AM -0500, Jack Coats wrote: >> If I wanted to DIY fiber, especially plastic, what does it take? >> >> Any good 'how to' sites someone knows about? >> >> Any reasonable (i.e. cheap or diy or kit) ethernet to/from fiber >> transceivers easily available? > > Erm. This is not a simple question. > > To begin with, how fast and how far? > > -dsr- > > > -- > http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference. > > You can't defend freedom by getting rid of it. > Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Dan Ritter-2
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:31:36AM -0500, Jack Coats wrote:
> I would like to go about 300' with at least 10Mbit ethernet. I have a > friend that needs about a 150' link > and a 50 to 100'. This would allow him to get ethernet down to his > shop (lots of ugly power things > like welders and wood routers going on there). > > For me it is to keep away ground loop problems between buildings. > > If it is faster, that is better. Even if it is slower, that works for > this application, but faster is always better :) > Gigabit anyone? For most 'real application' I have, even 1 or 2Mbit > would be more than adequate. > > Even knowing how to run a 50' or so at nice speeds might help some > 'garage shop' kind of folks > that want to connect computerized equipment to a network without > dealing with some of the stray > induced power issues. OK, that's pretty easy. You want 100TX to 100FX media converters, multi-mode fiber, and probably pre-installed SC ends because you don't need to learn how to polish fiber, trust me. Probably under $100 per end plus the fiber. Yup, Google confirms. Try this: http://aaxeon.com/s.nl;jsessionid=0a01074e1f43709b2b91134c4b7c8cd1c751185d69b2.e3eTaxeKbh0Te34Pa38Ta38ObNr0?it=A&id=200&sc=7&category=1307 You'll need 2, plus the fiber -- here's a Belkin 150ft span for $132 http://www.provantage.com/belkin-a2f20277-150~7BELN1CV.htm I haven't used these specific products, but the prices seem reasonable and they should be pretty much plug-and-play. -dsr- -- http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference. You can't defend freedom by getting rid of it. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Randy Cole
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Dan Ritter wrote:
> OK, that's pretty easy. You want 100TX to 100FX media converters, > multi-mode fiber, and probably pre-installed SC ends because you don't > need to learn how to polish fiber, trust me. > > Probably under $100 per end plus the fiber. > > Yup, Google confirms. Try this: > > http://aaxeon.com/s.nl;jsessionid=0a01074e1f43709b2b91134c4b7c8cd1c751185d69b2.e3eTaxeKbh0Te34Pa38Ta38ObNr0?it=A&id=200&sc=7&category=1307 > > You'll need 2, plus the fiber -- here's a Belkin 150ft span for > $132 http://www.provantage.com/belkin-a2f20277-150~7BELN1CV.htm > > I haven't used these specific products, but the prices seem > reasonable and they should be pretty much plug-and-play. > > -dsr- precautions against freezing and water. I know a company that installed fiber between buildings and had to do it over. Strangely, they didn't even attempt to recover from the original installer. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Randy Cole
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Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 08:37:20PM -0400, Scott Ehrlich wrote: > >> I recently overheard a discussion from a FIOS tech saying at some >> point in the near future the existing copper infrastructure is simply >> so old it will be ripped out, apparently forcing existing landline >> customers to switch to fiber...??? Didn't quite sound right, but >> maybe the backbone infrastructure (poles/street) will be making way to >> fiber? >> >> Was this tech telling the truth, providing an assumption, or maybe >> offering what he hopes might happen? >> > Every time VZ puts in a FIOS deployment, they rip out the > copper. This is because copper is regulated and must be re-sold > to their competitors, but fiber is not. The next people to ask > for a copper service (or a competitor) will have to pay for an > all-new install. > > -dsr- designed to last 20. Is this true? I've also read that in Massachusetts you can tell them not to remove the copper and that they have to leave it in place. Every time I've checked to see if DSL is available, it used to say no, now it just switches to FIOS. I am within the distance from the CO, even considering routing past the original CO that was replaced about 1940 or earlier. DSL dry-loop supposedly costs $19.99 (1M/768k), or $29.99(3M/768k). Jarod said he has Business FIOS instead of residential. Looks like the per-month cost ($49.99) is the same as residential, but they charge $99 for installation and require 2yr instead of 1yr contract. --Randy _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Dan Ritter-2
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:56:30PM -0400, Randy Cole wrote:
> Dan Ritter wrote: > > Every time VZ puts in a FIOS deployment, they rip out the > > copper. This is because copper is regulated and must be re-sold > > to their competitors, but fiber is not. The next people to ask > > for a copper service (or a competitor) will have to pay for an > > all-new install. > Copper lasts for up to 100 years or so, but I've been told that fiber is > designed to last 20. Is this true? We don't really know. We don't really have any hundred-year-old copper lines in use. Certainly the insulation is likely to erode before that, and water in the lines can cause havoc. Glass fiber can eventually break under mechanical strain, but so can copper. Exposed copper will eventually oxidize, and copper oxide isn't nearly as good a conductor as pure metal. This is worse because of skin effect, but not very much worse. > I've also read that in Massachusetts you can tell them not to remove the > copper and that they have to leave it in place. There are several cases in which they have "accidentally" forgotten that, and they have no duty to restore it. > Jarod said he has Business FIOS instead of residential. Looks like the > per-month cost ($49.99) is the same as residential, but they charge $99 > for installation and require 2yr instead of 1yr contract. If you're going to get it, it's almost certainly worthwhile to go business-class. -dsr- -- http://tao.merseine.nu/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference. You can't defend freedom by getting rid of it. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Richard Pieri
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Randy Cole wrote:
> Copper lasts for up to 100 years or so, but I've been told that > fiber is > designed to last 20. Is this true? Barring destructive influences, fibre optic cable can last as long as any piece of glass. > I've also read that in Massachusetts you can tell them not to remove > the > copper and that they have to leave it in place. Correct. But as I noted previously that doesn't mean that the copper remains live. --Rich P. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Jarod Wilson
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>> Jarod said he has Business FIOS instead of residential. Looks like >> the >> per-month cost ($49.99) is the same as residential, but they charge >> $99 >> for installation and require 2yr instead of 1yr contract. > > If you're going to get it, it's almost certainly worthwhile to > go business-class. Jarod has business service w/5 static IP and EULA that permits running internet-facing servers though, which is $99/mo, not $49.99. Unless they've lowered prices and I'm blindly still paying the higher prices, I presume the $49.99 is for dynamic IP, no servers. -- Jarod Wilson jarod@... _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Randy Cole
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Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:56:30PM -0400, Randy Cole wrote: > >> Copper lasts for up to 100 years or so, but I've been told that fiber is >> designed to last 20. Is this true? >> > > We don't really know. > > We don't really have any hundred-year-old copper lines in use. > Certainly the insulation is likely to erode before that, and > water in the lines can cause havoc. Glass fiber can eventually > break under mechanical strain, but so can copper. Exposed copper > will eventually oxidize, and copper oxide isn't nearly as good a > conductor as pure metal. This is worse because of skin effect, > but not very much worse. > in the copper, the copper should last indefinitely. As for the connections and insulation... The existing New England Telephone and Telegraph wire copper is still in place, but unpowered. There is no network interface or ground. I don't know how old the drop is, but the service was originally a party line & the house is 99 yo. Nynex replaced the street plant ~late 80s, but they didn't put enough in - only 5 yrs later they were scrounging for pairs. This is turning into Telecom Digest... I've been told that the problem with fiber is the connectors getting wet. I've seen damage to fiber that was improperly installed - indoor cable used outdoors, exposed to freeze/thaw. about 21 out of 24 fibers were broken. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Bill Horne-14
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Randy Cole wrote:
> This is turning into Telecom Digest... > Since I moderate the Telecom Digest, I invite anyone interested in this top to contribute their views. You may either use a newreader and send posts to comp.dcom.telecom, or send them to telecomdigestmoderator atsign telecom.csail.mit.edu . In either case, please put "[Telecom]" (without the quotes, but _with_ the brackets) in your subject line. Bill Horne -- E. William Horne William Warren Consulting Computer & Network Installations, Security, and Service http://william-warren.com 781-784-7287 _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: Goodbye to copper?
by Robert Krawitz-2
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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:56:30 -0400
From: Randy Cole <randyokc@...> Jarod said he has Business FIOS instead of residential. Looks like the per-month cost ($49.99) is the same as residential, but they charge $99 for installation and require 2yr instead of 1yr contract. What's the difference (in terms of TOS, running servers, etc.)? _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: FIOS
by Tom Metro-16
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Jarod Wilson wrote:
> Jarod has business service w/5 static IP... I thought it was only 1 static IP for the $99 price? (They don't seem to specify on their site.) I still tend to think the incremental cost for a static IP with FIOS is not competitive with what the alternatives charge ($30 vs. $10 from most ISPs - that's a $240/year premium). Of course if their TOS varies (to permit servers) with the static IP option, then the dynamic IP offering is a misnomer to call it business class. > Unless they've lowered prices and I'm blindly still paying the higher > prices, I presume the $49.99 is for dynamic IP, no servers. I don't think they've lowered prices. Lets see... The $50 option is indeed with dynamic IP, a 2-year contract, and a step slower (15/5 Mbps) than the $99 service (20/5 Mbps) (which also requires a 2-year contract). http://www22.verizon.com/content/businessfios/packagesandprices/packagesandprices.htm -Tom -- Tom Metro Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA "Enterprise solutions through open source." Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: FIOS
by Jarod Wilson
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On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Tom Metro wrote:
> Jarod Wilson wrote: >> Jarod has business service w/5 static IP... > > I thought it was only 1 static IP for the $99 price? (They don't > seem to > specify on their site.) I believe I asked on the phone when I was signing up if I could get more, and they said I could get up to 5 for no charge, so I did. Note that its *not* a dedicated subnet though, in my case, I got 5 IP addresses in a class C range with a class C mask. > I still tend to think the incremental cost for a static IP with FIOS > is > not competitive with what the alternatives charge ($30 vs. $10 from > most > ISPs - that's a $240/year premium). Hm. Hadn't thought about it like that. I went from the "well, I'm paying for service at home anyway, and paying a colo cost, which totals nearly $150/mo, so $100/mo looks like a deal, and I move my colo'd box in-house..." > Of course if their TOS varies (to permit servers) with the static IP > option, then the dynamic IP offering is a misnomer to call it business > class. Yes and no. Plenty of businesses just need a pipe to the 'net, but I agree that its a touch underhanded... >> Unless they've lowered prices and I'm blindly still paying the higher >> prices, I presume the $49.99 is for dynamic IP, no servers. > > I don't think they've lowered prices. Lets see... > > The $50 option is indeed with dynamic IP, a 2-year contract, and a > step > slower (15/5 Mbps) than the $99 service (20/5 Mbps) (which also > requires > a 2-year contract). Oh good, so I'm not paying extra. :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@... _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: FIOS
by Tom Metro-16
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Jarod Wilson wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote: >> Of course if their TOS varies (to permit servers) with the static IP >> option, then the dynamic IP offering is a misnomer to call it business >> class. > > Yes and no. I don't think I ever did get the details on their TOS. (I asked them for a copy several years ago when I first looked into FIOS.) Anyone have the business class FIOS with dynamic IP? If so, have you been running servers using a dynamic DNS service? Experienced any port blocks? Have a copy of your TOS you can share? -Tom -- Tom Metro Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA "Enterprise solutions through open source." Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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Re: FIOS
by Derek Atkins
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Jarod Wilson <jarod@...> writes:
> On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Tom Metro wrote: > >> Jarod Wilson wrote: >>> Jarod has business service w/5 static IP... >> >> I thought it was only 1 static IP for the $99 price? (They don't >> seem to >> specify on their site.) > > I believe I asked on the phone when I was signing up if I could get > more, and they said I could get up to 5 for no charge, so I did. Note > that its *not* a dedicated subnet though, in my case, I got 5 IP > addresses in a class C range with a class C mask. Are the addresses sequential? -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord@... PGP key available _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@... http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss |
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