HL7 database question

[Serbulent Unsal-3]

Hi,

In FAQ it is said that a HL7 DB sold by HL7 international which is needed to
build HAPI data structures. I think this database is different from RIM (
http://www.hl7.org/Library/data-model/RIM/modelpage_mem.htm ).

But unfortunately I can't find how we can buy it from HL7 international. Would
any one help us which database we need and how can we buy it ? Thanks a lot...

--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

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[Erik Gfesser]

Thanks for asking. I had the same question and contacted HL7 International a while ago. The "databases" are available from HL7 International, but based on what I understand these are not relational databases. In other words, these "databases" are not schemas from which data repositories can be built to store data derived from HL7 messages. These "databases" simply store the definitions of the RIM, and apparently the HAPI project uses these "databases" to create the Java objects that it needs for processing HL7 messages. Does everyone else have the same understanding?

Erik

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:

> From: Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...>
> Subject: [HAPI-devel] HL7 database question
> To: hl7api-devel@...
> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 11:51 AM
> Hi,
>
> In FAQ it is said that a HL7 DB sold by HL7 international
> which is needed to
> build HAPI data structures. I think this database is
> different from RIM (
> http://www.hl7.org/Library/data-model/RIM/modelpage_mem.htm
> ).
>
> But unfortunately I can't find how we can buy it from HL7
> international. Would
> any one help us which database we need and how can we buy
> it ? Thanks a lot...
>
> --
> Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
> GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
> Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
> Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
> 06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA
>
> This e-mail and its attachments are private and
> confidential to the exclusive
> use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It
> may also be
> legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other
> dissemination of
> this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If
> you are not the
> intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use
> any part of it. If
> you are not the intended recipient or the person who is
> responsible to
> transmit to the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message and its
> attachments.
>
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[James Agnew]

Hi Serbulent, Erik,

The database in question is not the RIM database, but actually an access database developed by Frank Oemig in Germany. He has a page about it here: http://oemig.de/HL7/hl7db.htm . I'm not actually sure what is involved in purchasing a copy, but I believe you need to contact HL7 international.

That said- If you wanted to elaborate on what you need to do, it might not require the database. The project is structured in such a way that you shouldn't need to use the database for building most of the HAPI library, just the predefined message structures. If you are trying to make modifications to the core hapi library (for instance to the parser, or some other core class), you can simply build using the "mvn -P CORE install" command. If you are trying to create custom message classes, this is actually fairly easy (although not well documented) without the use of a database. If you are trying to do that, maybe I can talk you through it and improve the documentation in the process. One other possibility is if you have found a bug in one of the predefined message types. If that is the case, I could probably just fix the problem on my copy and create a new structures distribution containing the fix.

Sorry for the long email, hopefully this is useful.

Cheers,
James

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Erik Gfesser <egfesser@...> wrote:

Thanks for asking. I had the same question and contacted HL7 International a while ago. The "databases" are available from HL7 International, but based on what I understand these are not relational databases. In other words, these "databases" are not schemas from which data repositories can be built to store data derived from HL7 messages. These "databases" simply store the definitions of the RIM, and apparently the HAPI project uses these "databases" to create the Java objects that it needs for processing HL7 messages. Does everyone else have the same understanding?

Erik

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:

> From: Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...>
> Subject: [HAPI-devel] HL7 database question
> To: hl7api-devel@...
> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 11:51 AM

> Hi,
>
> In FAQ it is said that a HL7 DB sold by HL7 international
> which is needed to
> build HAPI data structures. I think this database is
> different from RIM (
> http://www.hl7.org/Library/data-model/RIM/modelpage_mem.htm
> ).
>
> But unfortunately I can't find how we can buy it from HL7
> international. Would
> any one help us which database we need and how can we buy
> it ? Thanks a lot...
>
> --
> Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
> GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
> Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
> Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
> 06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA
>
> This e-mail and its attachments are private and
> confidential to the exclusive
> use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It
> may also be
> legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other
> dissemination of
> this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If
> you are not the
> intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use
> any part of it. If
> you are not the intended recipient or the person who is
> responsible to
> transmit to the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message and its
> attachments.
>
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[Serbulent Unsal-3]

Hi,

At first I'd like to appologies to reply the last mail to James' personal mail
instead of list. But it's Kmail's bad :) . When we back to topic;

Actually there is nothing so special about validations in IHE profiles. IHE's
approach is simple, getting standarts from HL7 and defining some rules on them
in technical frameworks.

For example here [1] is a small part of the RAD technical framework volume 2.

As you will see document below, IHE can define a field ( which is specified
optional in HL7 guide ) as conditional or reqired. In a similar way they can
do this for segments in a message...

As I said in my last message I think conformance profiles will be enough to
satisfy IHE's requirments. But the problem is I've to write all profile for all
messages and fields again and again.

I'd like to figure out, is there a way to override only some of fields for every
message which is needed ?

PS: May be another solution will be using "Open eHealth Integration Platform"
for validations which is based on HAPI and Apache Camel ? [2] [3]

[1] https://worksanita.regione.emilia-
romagna.it/sites/grts/Materiale_IHE/Transaction%5CRAD_2.pdf

[2] http://gforge.openehealth.org/gf/project/ipf/
[3] http://architects.dzone.com/articles/introduction-open-ehealth?page=0,0



On Wednesday 22 July 2009 11:11:19 pm you wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> Hmm, interesting. I haven't personally worked with the IHE radiology
> profiles, so I'm not too sure what's involved in implementing them.
>
> What kind of validations would you need to do for your segments? Can you
> provide an example or two? Also, are they captured electonically in any way
> (i.e. XML schema or something like that)? I'm thinking it may be possible
> for you to do this by extending existing segment classes somehow and then
> using a custom ModelClassFactory to provide your own customized
> implementations to the parser.
>
> Cheers,
> James
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Serbulent Unsal <
>
> serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 July 2009 10:27:26 pm you wrote:
> > > Hi Serbulent, Erik,
> >
> > Hi James,
> >
> > At first thanx for your reply.
> >
> > > The database in question is not the RIM database, but actually an
> > > access database developed by Frank Oemig in Germany. He has a page
> > > about it
> >
> > here:
> > > http://oemig.de/HL7/hl7db.htm . I'm not actually sure what is involved
> >
> > in
> >
> > > purchasing a copy, but I believe you need to contact HL7 international.
> >
> > I try to contact them but I couldn't get any reply for now.
> >
> > > ...
> > > If you are trying to create custom message classes, this is
> > > actually fairly easy (although not well documented) without the use of
> > > a database. If you are trying to do that, maybe I can talk you through
> > > it
> >
> > and
> >
> > > improve the documentation in the process.
> >
> > We are trying to implement some IHE actors from radiology domain. So we
> > need
> > to change some validation rules for segments and messages according to
> > IHE framework.
> >
> > For messages we can use conformance profiles i think, but for segments we
> > can't
> > figure out what can we do beyond a lots of if...else blocks.
> >
> > May be we can define rules for segment again and again in every message
> > conformance profile but it's too dirty solution like using if..else
> > blocks.
> >
> > So I can't find a good solution at all...
> >
> > Thanx...
> >
> >
> >
> > PS: Is there any predefined rule files for standart HL7 messages that you
> > know
> > or sould we write them once more to use in our application ???

--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

This e-mail and its attachments are private and confidential to the exclusive
use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may also be
legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other dissemination of
this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use any part of it. If
you are not the intended recipient or the person who is responsible to
transmit to the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message and its attachments.

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[Serbulent Unsal-3]

Any ideas ???


On Thursday 23 July 2009 09:35:23 am Serbulent Unsal wrote:

> Hi,
>
> At first I'd like to appologies to reply the last mail to James' personal
> mail instead of list. But it's Kmail's bad :) . When we back to topic;
>
> Actually there is nothing so special about validations in IHE profiles.
> IHE's approach is simple, getting standarts from HL7 and defining some
> rules on them in technical frameworks.
>
> For example here [1] is a small part of the RAD technical framework volume
> 2.
>
> As you will see document below, IHE can define a field ( which is specified
> optional in HL7 guide ) as conditional or reqired. In a similar way they
> can do this for segments in a message...
>
> As I said in my last message I think conformance profiles will be enough to
> satisfy IHE's requirments. But the problem is I've to write all profile for
> all messages and fields again and again.
>
> I'd like to figure out, is there a way to override only some of fields for
> every message which is needed ?
>
> PS: May be another solution will be using "Open eHealth Integration
> Platform" for validations which is based on HAPI and Apache Camel ? [2] [3]
>
> [1] https://worksanita.regione.emilia-
> romagna.it/sites/grts/Materiale_IHE/Transaction%5CRAD_2.pdf
>
> [2] http://gforge.openehealth.org/gf/project/ipf/
> [3] http://architects.dzone.com/articles/introduction-open-ehealth?page=0,0
>
> On Wednesday 22 July 2009 11:11:19 pm you wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > Hmm, interesting. I haven't personally worked with the IHE radiology
> > profiles, so I'm not too sure what's involved in implementing them.
> >
> > What kind of validations would you need to do for your segments? Can you
> > provide an example or two? Also, are they captured electonically in any
> > way (i.e. XML schema or something like that)? I'm thinking it may be
> > possible for you to do this by extending existing segment classes somehow
> > and then using a custom ModelClassFactory to provide your own customized
> > implementations to the parser.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Serbulent Unsal <
> >
> > serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 21 July 2009 10:27:26 pm you wrote:
> > > > Hi Serbulent, Erik,
> > >
> > > Hi James,
> > >
> > > At first thanx for your reply.
> > >
> > > > The database in question is not the RIM database, but actually an
> > > > access database developed by Frank Oemig in Germany. He has a page
> > > > about it
> > >
> > > here:
> > > > http://oemig.de/HL7/hl7db.htm . I'm not actually sure what is
> > > > involved
> > >
> > > in
> > >
> > > > purchasing a copy, but I believe you need to contact HL7
> > > > international.
> > >
> > > I try to contact them but I couldn't get any reply for now.
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > > If you are trying to create custom message classes, this is
> > > > actually fairly easy (although not well documented) without the use
> > > > of a database. If you are trying to do that, maybe I can talk you
> > > > through it
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > improve the documentation in the process.
> > >
> > > We are trying to implement some IHE actors from radiology domain. So we
> > > need
> > > to change some validation rules for segments and messages according to
> > > IHE framework.
> > >
> > > For messages we can use conformance profiles i think, but for segments
> > > we can't
> > > figure out what can we do beyond a lots of if...else blocks.
> > >
> > > May be we can define rules for segment again and again in every message
> > > conformance profile but it's too dirty solution like using if..else
> > > blocks.
> > >
> > > So I can't find a good solution at all...
> > >
> > > Thanx...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS: Is there any predefined rule files for standart HL7 messages that
> > > you know
> > > or sould we write them once more to use in our application ???

--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

This e-mail and its attachments are private and confidential to the exclusive
use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may also be
legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other dissemination of
this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use any part of it. If
you are not the intended recipient or the person who is responsible to
transmit to the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message and its attachments.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[James Agnew]

I have to say I'm at a bit of a loss. Because there is no electronic representation of all of the restrictions you are after, there's definitely no out-of-the-box way of doing this.

Probably as you mentioned, using Conformance profiles would get you pretty close, and you could then add any remaining field value restrictions using validators.

I've been thinking of enhancing the validation API for a while to give validators the ability to know which field/segment specifically they are validating, so that for instance you could have different valuesets allowed for different CE fields, etc. If you wanted to go this route I'd be more than happy to help make the required changes to the validation api to get you going.

Incidentally, are you looking to runtime validation or compile time or both?

Cheers,
James

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:

Any ideas ???

On Thursday 23 July 2009 09:35:23 am Serbulent Unsal wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At first I'd like to appologies to reply the last mail to James' personal
> mail instead of list. But it's Kmail's bad :) . When we back to topic;
>
> Actually there is nothing so special about validations in IHE profiles.
> IHE's approach is simple, getting standarts from HL7 and defining some
> rules on them in technical frameworks.
>
> For example here [1] is a small part of the RAD technical framework volume
> 2.
>
> As you will see document below, IHE can define a field ( which is specified
> optional in HL7 guide ) as conditional or reqired. In a similar way they
> can do this for segments in a message...
>
> As I said in my last message I think conformance profiles will be enough to
> satisfy IHE's requirments. But the problem is I've to write all profile for
> all messages and fields again and again.
>
> I'd like to figure out, is there a way to override only some of fields for
> every message which is needed ?
>
> PS: May be another solution will be using "Open eHealth Integration
> Platform" for validations which is based on HAPI and Apache Camel ? [2] [3]
>
> [1] https://worksanita.regione.emilia-
> romagna.it/sites/grts/Materiale_IHE/Transaction%5CRAD_2.pdf
>
> [2] http://gforge.openehealth.org/gf/project/ipf/
> [3] http://architects.dzone.com/articles/introduction-open-ehealth?page=0,0
>
> On Wednesday 22 July 2009 11:11:19 pm you wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > Hmm, interesting. I haven't personally worked with the IHE radiology
> > profiles, so I'm not too sure what's involved in implementing them.
> >
> > What kind of validations would you need to do for your segments? Can you
> > provide an example or two? Also, are they captured electonically in any
> > way (i.e. XML schema or something like that)? I'm thinking it may be
> > possible for you to do this by extending existing segment classes somehow
> > and then using a custom ModelClassFactory to provide your own customized
> > implementations to the parser.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Serbulent Unsal <
> >
> > serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 21 July 2009 10:27:26 pm you wrote:
> > > > Hi Serbulent, Erik,
> > >
> > > Hi James,
> > >
> > > At first thanx for your reply.
> > >
> > > > The database in question is not the RIM database, but actually an
> > > > access database developed by Frank Oemig in Germany. He has a page
> > > > about it
> > >
> > > here:
> > > > http://oemig.de/HL7/hl7db.htm . I'm not actually sure what is
> > > > involved
> > >
> > > in
> > >
> > > > purchasing a copy, but I believe you need to contact HL7
> > > > international.
> > >
> > > I try to contact them but I couldn't get any reply for now.
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > > If you are trying to create custom message classes, this is
> > > > actually fairly easy (although not well documented) without the use
> > > > of a database. If you are trying to do that, maybe I can talk you
> > > > through it
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > improve the documentation in the process.
> > >
> > > We are trying to implement some IHE actors from radiology domain. So we
> > > need
> > > to change some validation rules for segments and messages according to
> > > IHE framework.
> > >
> > > For messages we can use conformance profiles i think, but for segments
> > > we can't
> > > figure out what can we do beyond a lots of if...else blocks.
> > >
> > > May be we can define rules for segment again and again in every message
> > > conformance profile but it's too dirty solution like using if..else
> > > blocks.
> > >
> > > So I can't find a good solution at all...
> > >
> > > Thanx...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS: Is there any predefined rule files for standart HL7 messages that
> > > you know
> > > or sould we write them once more to use in our application ???

--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

This e-mail and its attachments are private and confidential to the exclusive
use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may also be
legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other dissemination of
this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use any part of it. If
you are not the intended recipient or the person who is responsible to
transmit to the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
and destroy all copies of the original message and its attachments.

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[Serbulent Unsal-3]

Hi Again,

On Monday 27 July 2009 06:42:42 pm you wrote:
> I have to say I'm at a bit of a loss. Because there is no electronic
> representation of all of the restrictions you are after, there's definitely
> no out-of-the-box way of doing this.
>
> Probably as you mentioned, using Conformance profiles would get you pretty
> close, and you could then add any remaining field value restrictions using
> validators.
>

I thought that field value restrictions are supported with conformance profiles.
Beyond that regex definition of fields is also covered by conformance profiles
but I don't know these are covered ( with automatic validation ) by Hapi's
conformance profile support or not.

> I've been thinking of enhancing the validation API for a while to give
> validators the ability to know which field/segment specifically they are
> validating, so that for instance you could have different valuesets allowed
> for different CE fields, etc. If you wanted to go this route I'd be more
> than happy to help make the required changes to the validation api to get
> you going.
>

I'm not sure for that because if all conformance profile is covered then I need
only cross cheking between fields like i.e.  " Field EVN-1 Event Type Code is
optional; however, if present, its value shall be equal to the second
component of the field MSH-9 Message Type." etc.

> Incidentally, are you looking to runtime validation or compile time or
> both?

For now runtime validation is enough for me I think.

Best Regards,


--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

This e-mail and its attachments are private and confidential to the exclusive
use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may also be
legally confidential. Any disclosure, distribution or other dissemination of
this message to any third party is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, you may not copy, forward, send or use any part of it. If
you are not the intended recipient or the person who is responsible to
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and destroy all copies of the original message and its attachments.

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[James Agnew]

Hi Serbulent,

> I thought that field value restrictions are supported with conformance profiles.
> Beyond that regex definition of fields is also covered by conformance profiles
> but I don't know these are covered ( with automatic validation ) by Hapi's
> conformance profile support or not.

Well that's interesting. To be honest, I didn't know that regex field definitions were possible in conformance profiles, I've never used that feature. I'm almost positive that HAPI doesn't support it, but it would be very easy to add. (I can help in any way you like if needed)

It sounds like you've got a good solution in mind, I guess the only outstanding thing is the issue of cross checking values like the EVN-1 example you gave. I guess the simplest way to do that would be to write your own Validator with if/else checks in it (I'm assuming that's what you already had in mind :) ). It would be really nice to come up with some way a bit more automated to do it (XML definition files and a parser for instance) but I don't know that this would end up being very flexible.. who knows?

> For now runtime validation is enough for me I think.

I guess the big advantage to using conformance profiles is that if you decide you want to do compile time validating in the future, you can get at least some of it from the conformance classes generator in HAPI.

Good luck!

Cheers,
James

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Serbulent Unsal <serbulent.unsal@...> wrote:

Hi Again,

On Monday 27 July 2009 06:42:42 pm you wrote:

> I have to say I'm at a bit of a loss. Because there is no electronic
> representation of all of the restrictions you are after, there's definitely
> no out-of-the-box way of doing this.
>
> Probably as you mentioned, using Conformance profiles would get you pretty
> close, and you could then add any remaining field value restrictions using
> validators.
>

I thought that field value restrictions are supported with conformance profiles.
Beyond that regex definition of fields is also covered by conformance profiles
but I don't know these are covered ( with automatic validation ) by Hapi's
conformance profile support or not.

> I've been thinking of enhancing the validation API for a while to give
> validators the ability to know which field/segment specifically they are
> validating, so that for instance you could have different valuesets allowed
> for different CE fields, etc. If you wanted to go this route I'd be more
> than happy to help make the required changes to the validation api to get
> you going.
>

I'm not sure for that because if all conformance profile is covered then I need
only cross cheking between fields like i.e.  " Field EVN-1 Event Type Code is
optional; however, if present, its value shall be equal to the second
component of the field MSH-9 Message Type." etc.

> Incidentally, are you looking to runtime validation or compile time or
> both?

For now runtime validation is enough for me I think.

Best Regards,


--

Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
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Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
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06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

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[Serbulent Unsal-3]

On Wednesday 05 August 2009 05:00:59 pm James Agnew wrote:
> Hi Serbulent,
>

Hi again,

> > I thought that field value restrictions are supported with conformance
>>profiles.
>
> > Beyond that regex definition of fields is also covered by conformance
>>profiles but I don't know these are covered ( with automatic validation ) by
> > Hapi's conformance profile support or not.
>
> Well that's interesting. To be honest, I didn't know that regex field
> definitions were possible in conformance profiles, I've never used that
> feature. I'm almost positive that HAPI doesn't support it, but it would be
> very easy to add. (I can help in any way you like if needed)
>

I first saw them in a profile created by MWB. I don't know whether they are in
the conformance profile spec or not but they can be very useful when you are
validating a conformance profile. I'll appriciate if u add validation support
for them.

> It sounds like you've got a good solution in mind, I guess the only
> outstanding thing is the issue of cross checking values like the EVN-1
> example you gave. I guess the simplest way to do that would be to write
> your own Validator with if/else checks in it (I'm assuming that's what you
> already had in mind :) ). It would be really nice to come up with some way
> a bit more automated to do it (XML definition files and a parser for
> instance) but I don't know that this would end up being very flexible.. who
> knows?

Yep, first I was thought classical if-else checks to bussiness logic of our app
but, an automated version for generic cross checks might be more useful. If we
choose this way, I'll be happy to share the code for adding it to hapi.

>
> > For now runtime validation is enough for me I think.
>
> I guess the big advantage to using conformance profiles is that if you
> decide you want to do compile time validating in the future, you can get at
> least some of it from the conformance classes generator in HAPI.
>

Thanx for guidance

> Good luck!
>
> Cheers,
> James

Regards,

--
Serbulent Unsal | Software Expert
GSM : [phone] | Tel : +90.312.478 48 00
Akgun Softwares & Services Pvt. Ltd.
Çetin Emeç Bulv. 4. Cad. No:5/3
06460 A.Öveçler / ANKARA

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