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HP RTL driver
|
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Re: HP RTL driver
From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
driver?
The aforementioned Encad printers also have a mode called 'ENCAD
RTL' or 'EN RTL' which I presume is some Encad-specific extension
to HP RTL. Is this language supported by gutenprint?
No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
>
> Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
> RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
> have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
> gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
> driver?
>
> The aforementioned Encad printers also have a mode called 'ENCAD
> RTL' or 'EN RTL' which I presume is some Encad-specific extension
> to HP RTL. Is this language supported by gutenprint?
>
> No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
support RTL?
--
Bob Ham < rah@...>
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: HP RTL driver
From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
Cc: gimp-print-devel@...
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:44:02 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
--=-CcW9/8gbAo0c6loVTLq9
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
>=20
> Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
> RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
> have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
> gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
> driver?
>=20
> The aforementioned Encad printers also have a mode called 'ENCAD
> RTL' or 'EN RTL' which I presume is some Encad-specific extension
> to HP RTL. Is this language supported by gutenprint?
>=20
> No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
support RTL?
Yes.
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:52 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> > From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
> >
> > Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
> > RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
> > have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
> > gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
> > driver?
> >
> > No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
>
> Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
> support RTL?
>
> Yes.
This is a bit odd as these printers don't support PCL. Taking a couple
of examples from gutenprint's list of supported printers, neither the
Designjet 450C or Designjet 750C support PCL. According to HP's
specifications[0][1], both printers support only HP-GL, HP-GL/2 and
HP-RTL (and PJL.)
[0] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=bpp02288&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=28023[1] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=120&prodSeriesId=25252&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25252&objectID=bpp01749--
Bob Ham < rah@...>
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: HP RTL driver
HP RTL is a raster-only subset of what is now known as PCL 5c - both support 24-bit RGB and 1-bit per component grayscale or CMYK.
On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:09 AM, Bob Ham wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:52 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
>> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
>> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
>>> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
>>>
>>> Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
>>> RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
>>> have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
>>> gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
>>> driver?
>>>
>>> No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
>>
>> Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
>> support RTL?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> This is a bit odd as these printers don't support PCL. Taking a couple
> of examples from gutenprint's list of supported printers, neither the
> Designjet 450C or Designjet 750C support PCL. According to HP's
> specifications[0][1], both printers support only HP-GL, HP-GL/2 and
> HP-RTL (and PJL.)
>
>
> [0] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=bpp02288&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=28023> [1] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=120&prodSeriesId=25252&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25252&objectID=bpp01749>
>
> --
> Bob Ham < rah@...>
>
> for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel___________________________________________________
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Re: HP RTL driver
This is a little confusing; do the Designjet drivers output unrestricted
PCL, including instructions outside the RTL subset or do they take care
to only output instructions within RTL? Assuming that the Designjet
drivers are special cases of general PCL code, is the general code
capable of outputting instructions outside the RTL subset at all?
On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 09:22 -0700, Michael Sweet wrote:
> HP RTL is a raster-only subset of what is now known as PCL 5c - both support 24-bit RGB and 1-bit per component grayscale or CMYK.
>
> On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:09 AM, Bob Ham wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:52 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> >> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> >> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> >>> From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
> >>> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
> >>>
> >>> Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
> >>> RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
> >>> have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
> >>> gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
> >>> driver?
> >>>
> >>> No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
> >>
> >> Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
> >> support RTL?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >
> > This is a bit odd as these printers don't support PCL. Taking a couple
> > of examples from gutenprint's list of supported printers, neither the
> > Designjet 450C or Designjet 750C support PCL. According to HP's
> > specifications[0][1], both printers support only HP-GL, HP-GL/2 and
> > HP-RTL (and PJL.)
> >
> >
> > [0] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=bpp02288&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=28023> > [1] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=120&prodSeriesId=25252&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25252&objectID=bpp01749> >
> >
> > --
> > Bob Ham < rah@...>
> >
> > for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
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> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference_______________________________________________> > Gimp-print-devel mailing list
> > Gimp-print-devel@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel>
> ___________________________________________________
> Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer
>
>
>
>
--
Bob Ham < rah@...>
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: HP RTL driver
From: Bob Ham < rah@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:37:03 +0000
This is a little confusing; do the Designjet drivers output unrestricted
PCL, including instructions outside the RTL subset or do they take care
to only output instructions within RTL? Assuming that the Designjet
drivers are special cases of general PCL code, is the general code
capable of outputting instructions outside the RTL subset at all?
I'm afraid you will have to study the code; we do not currently have a
maintainer for this driver.
--
Robert Krawitz < rlk@...>
Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- http://ProgFree.orgProject lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
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 Re: HP RTL driver
Some parts of this message have been removed.
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I have supported HP DesignJets and Encad plotters in the past as part of my job. You will probably not be able to drive either of these plotters with a PCL driver. You need to either send this plotters either HPGL/2 or raw RTL. If you are plotting CAD data, most CAD applications can output these formats without the need of any drivers in the system. PJL is 'plotter job language, and it's used for job control only. (DesignJets have a built-in print/plot queue and job control system). That being said, I'm pretty sure Ghostscript will drive these plotters for wide-format color printing.
On Wed 28/10/09 12:22 PM , Michael Sweet <msweet@...> wrote: HP RTL is a raster-only subset of what is now known as PCL 5c - both support 24-bit RGB and 1-bit per component grayscale or CMYK.
On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:09 AM, Bob Ham wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:52 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
>> From: Bob Ham <rah@...>
>> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 08:37 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
>>> From: Bob Ham <rah@...>
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000
>>>
>>> Rumour has it[0][1] that gutenprint may include a driver for HP
>>> RTL. This language is useful for Encad wide-format printers that
>>> have an HP RTL emulation mode. I've had a quick look through the
>>> gutenprint source but couldn't find anything. Is there an RTL
>>> driver?
>>>
>>> No -- it drives these printers in PCL mode.
>>
>> Sorry, by "these printers" are you referring to the HP DesignJets that
>> support RTL?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> This is a bit odd as these printers don't support PCL. Taking a couple
> of examples from gutenprint's list of supported printers, neither the
> Designjet 450C or Designjet 750C support PCL. According to HP's
> specifications[0][1], both printers support only HP-GL, HP-GL/2 and
> HP-RTL (and PJL.)
>
>
> [0] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp%3Flang%3Den%26amp%3Bcc%3Dus%26amp%3BobjectID%3Dbpp02288%26amp%3BprodTypeId%3D18972%26amp%3BprodSeriesId%3D28023" target="_blank">http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=bpp02288&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=28023
> [1] http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp%3Flang%3Den%26amp%3Bcc%3Dus%26amp%3BtaskId%3D120%26amp%3BprodSeriesId%3D25252%26amp%3BprodTypeId%3D18972%26amp%3BprodSeriesId%3D25252%26amp%3BobjectID%3Dbpp01749" target="_blank">http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=120&prodSeriesId=25252&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=25252&objectID=bpp01749
>
>
> --
> Bob Ham <rah@...>
>
> for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 11:30 -0400, morgan@... wrote:
> I have supported HP DesignJets and Encad plotters in the past as part
> of my job. You will probably not be able to drive either of these
> plotters with a PCL driver.
Indeed, the issue at hand is whether the gutenprint driver is a PCL
driver, an RTL driver, or both.
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Re: HP RTL driver
Bob Ham wrote:
> Indeed, the issue at hand is whether the gutenprint driver is a PCL
> driver, an RTL driver, or both.
I don't know for sure. PCL 5 generally is a superset of RTL. The
DesignJet drivers in Gutenprint may or may not work; I think it's most
probable that the current development team probably doesn't have access
to any DesignJets and that's why no one has looked at the DesignJet code
in a while.
I'd suggest trying them and if they don't work, you'll need to find out
what the driver sends to the plotter that the plotter doesn't like or
what the plotter is expecting that driver is not providing. HP provides
documentation on the languages involved. My guess is that since the
drivers are there, they will work.
If they do not, you'll either need to fix them, pay someone to fix them,
or use the ghostscript drivers. I know for 100% sure that the
ghostscript drivers work; I have never tried the gutenprint drivers and
therefore cannot comment on them.
Basically, the developers give priority to printers that they themselves
have or have access to.
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Rob Shinn <morgan@...> wrote:
Bob Ham wrote:
I'd suggest trying them and if they don't work, you'll need to find out
what the driver sends to the plotter that the plotter doesn't like or
what the plotter is expecting that driver is not providing. HP provides
documentation on the languages involved. My guess is that since the
drivers are there, they will work.
Robert has mentioned in previous posts that the primary issue for development is that they currently do not have a maintainer for the PCL drivers on the Gutenprint project. I'm sure availability of printers adds to the problem - large format printers are expensive and costly to ship and are less likely to get donated or loaned.
I have a DesignJet 2500CP (aka 2800CP without the outboard RIP). The Gutenprint driver does work with it, but is limited in a few important aspects, for example only supporting 300dpi. Also, even if it supported 600dpi, color rendition is not very good. The Gutenprint driver is OK for line art, but for decent looking photo prints, I resort to using Windows in VMWare.
As for Ghostscript drivers, I'm not familiar with them. On my system (OpenSuSE 11.1), which uses CUPS as its print daemon, the only drivers available for the DesignJet 2x00CP printers are the Gutenprint ones, at least that I've noticed. A year ago or so, I tried writing a driver using the CUPS ddk. I got 600dpi working, but the underlying PCL/RTL driver still had poor color rendition, so I basically gave up.
It's really a shame that large format printing has remained so hobbled on Linux. Printing in general has improved tremendously due to projects like Gutenprint, CUPS, and HPLIP, but the large format printers have largely been left behind. I wonder if HP supports them on OS-X, which is UNIX-based and uses CUPS as its printing system?
Dave
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Nov 1, 2009, at 9:28 PM, David Rosky wrote: ... It's really a shame that large format printing has remained so hobbled on Linux. Printing in general has improved tremendously due to projects like Gutenprint, CUPS, and HPLIP, but the large format printers have largely been left behind. I wonder if HP supports them on OS-X, which is UNIX-based and uses CUPS as its printing system?
They do, but without an application needing them they don't have the financial incentive to support them on Linux.
(the PostScript-based DesignJet's obviously work on Linux...)
___________________________________________________ Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Michael Sweet <msweet@...> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2009, at 9:28 PM, David Rosky wrote:
They do, but without an application needing them they don't have the financial incentive to support them on Linux.
(the PostScript-based DesignJet's obviously work on Linux...)
Micheal, This begs a comment and a question: There are numerous applications on Linux that can make use of large format printing. There are a number of photo editing, DTP, and CAD/design applications just to name a few, that can all make use of large format printing. The demand may be too low for HP to economically justify support, but I don't think it's because of a lack of applications. Of course, there may also be a self-fulfilling prophecy at work here - if there is no Linux support, then there won't likely be as much demand for the printers from Linux users.
Now the question: Is is possible to utilize the OS-X driver in Linux, perhaps through some kind of simple wrapper? Or is the version of CUPS in OS-X too different to make this possible. Or is there some non-technical reason like it's disallowed by the EULA?
Dave
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:49 AM, David Rosky wrote: On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Michael Sweet <msweet@...> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2009, at 9:28 PM, David Rosky wrote:
They do, but without an application needing them they don't have the financial incentive to support them on Linux.
(the PostScript-based DesignJet's obviously work on Linux...)
This begs a comment and a question:
There are numerous applications on Linux that can make use of large format printing. There are a number of photo editing, DTP, and CAD/design applications just to name a few, that can all make use of large format printing. The demand may be too low for HP to economically justify support, but I don't think it's because of a lack of applications. Of course, there may also be a self-fulfilling prophecy at work here - if there is no Linux support, then there won't likely be as much demand for the printers from Linux users.
Let me rephrase - there are no applications driving HP DesignJet sales on Linux right now. In the cases where a DesignJet is needed (say, printing of satellite imagery), the cost of getting a PostScript model is not usually an issue when the rest of the work flow costs significantly more than the Linux system + printer.
Now the question: Is is possible to utilize the OS-X driver in Linux, perhaps through some kind of simple wrapper? Or is the version of CUPS in OS-X too different to make this possible. Or is there some non-technical reason like it's disallowed by the EULA?
CUPS on Mac OS X and CUPS on Linux are essentially identical - there are just some system-specific bits we hide behind CUPS APIs and interfaces for things like USB.
That said, most CUPS drivers on Mac OS X link to many frameworks and not just to the CUPS libraries and libSystem (the equivalent of libc on Linux), so it isn't just a matter of providing a Mach-O loader for the program. You'll need to reverse-engineer any non-Darwin frameworks, duplicate the Mac OS X directory structure, and just hope that it all works.
___________________________________________________ Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Michael Sweet <msweet@...> wrote:
Let me rephrase - there are no applications driving HP DesignJet sales on Linux right now. In the cases where a DesignJet is needed (say, printing of satellite imagery), the cost of getting a PostScript model is not usually an issue when the rest of the work flow costs significantly more than the Linux system + printer.
I agree completely, if one is starting out with full purchasing flexibility, one would definitely choose a Postscript model for use with Linux, especially in a commercial environment where the extra cost would be lost in the noise. For private use, cost is more of an issue, and I was fortunate enough to have a surplus non-postscript model come available to me at very low cost, but of course was disappointed to find the Linux support so far behind that of other printers. I agree that private use of large format printers is a rather small market.
That said, most CUPS drivers on Mac OS X link to many frameworks and not just to the CUPS libraries and libSystem (the equivalent of libc on Linux), so it isn't just a matter of providing a Mach-O loader for the program. You'll need to reverse-engineer any non-Darwin frameworks, duplicate the Mac OS X directory structure, and just hope that it all works.
Thanks for the insight on this. I was thinking only the loader would be required, but it sounds like a library would have to be developed with stubs for all of the non-CUPS things that are linked to. It would probably be better to invest the time in developing a proper Linux driver. I could possibly go back to the CUPS DDK driver I started last year, but I would have to create an ICC profile that would correct for the poor color rendition, and I don't have the equipment to do that easily.
Dave
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Re: HP RTL driver
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thanks,
Rob
On Mon 02/11/09 12:28 AM , David Rosky <dave.rosky@...> wrote:
I have a DesignJet 2500CP (aka 2800CP without the outboard RIP). The Gutenprint driver does work with it, but is limited in a few important aspects, for example only supporting 300dpi. Also, even if it supported 600dpi, color rendition is not very good. The Gutenprint driver is OK for line art, but for decent looking photo prints, I resort to using Windows in VMWare.
I've got to say that I'm a bit confused as to why you would want to be using a PCL/RTL driver for a DesignJet 2500CP. All DesignJet 2500CPs sold in the U.S. have built-in support for PostScript Level 3. (That's what the P in 2500CP stands for!) The HP Postscript driver and PPDs from the OpenPrinting Printer database should work perfectly with this plotter and supports all the features.
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Re: HP RTL driver
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:51 AM, <morgan@...> wrote:
I've got to say that I'm a bit confused as to why you would want to be using a PCL/RTL driver for a DesignJet 2500CP. All DesignJet 2500CPs sold in the U.S. have built-in support for PostScript Level 3. (That's what the P in 2500CP stands for!) The HP Postscript driver and PPDs from the OpenPrinting Printer database should work perfectly with this plotter and supports all the features.
I probably wasn't clear enough in my description. The printer I have
is actually a Designjet 2800CP, which is essentially the combination of
a base non-postscript version of the printer and an *external* Fiery
RIP box that was shipped with it. Anyway, I picked up the one I have very
cheaply because the external Fiery RIP was missing, so I have a non-postscript
printer despite the name. I was not accurate in calling it a 2500CP,
which is probably the source of the confusion. After googling around,
it appears that the base printer I have, is the same thing as a 2000CP,
which is non-postscript despite the "P" in its name.
It also appears that HP has some ICC profiles posted on the support
site for this printer, so when I get some time I may see of those can
be used to improve the color output from the CUPS DDK driver. Best, Dave
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