HTML support in Kmail

Hi Guys,

this is the first time I'm writing to this mailing list.
Normally I wouldn't do that, but it could be the last chance how to speed up
some big problem in Kmail.
It's kind of special thing, because I know thousands of people don't use it
at all (including Kmail developers) and thousands of people who are
desperate about that (employees working in Outlook like companies).
Yes it is HTML e-mail support.

And I must also say, that it has poor level in Kmail comparing with the
leading products:
1. Microsoft Outlook
2. Yahoo Zimbra Desktop
3. Mozilla Thunderbird
4. Novell Evolution
5. IBM Lotus Notes

The question could appear why I bother you with this if I have 5 additional
clients I can use. Well, I can tell you, non of them is perfect and have
some drawbacks but the main thing is, they are not Qt4 and KDE4 integrated.

So is there a latitude to implement HTML into Kmail? Or is it wasting of
time to require it?

It's about 2 problems in Kmail:

1) is Bug 207779 which removes empty lines while composing in HTML
2) is  Bug 86423 when you Reply to HTML e-mail, then formating is destroyed
and placed as plain text and even point 1) is applied, so you also lose
empty lines.

Why it is so important?
Because in Outlook like companies e-mail is the main tool and if you discuss
something with 10 different people and everybody adds something into
history, everything is clearly separated by line from the bottom to the top.
So it isn't destroyed into plaintext and fonts, colors, pictures aren't
lost. Anytime you look back, then you see what this person wrote you and you
can refer to this.
I see you guys use separator in RE, which after while looks like this:

>>>la
>>>>bla
>>>>bla
>>>la
>>>>bla
>>>la
>>ha
>ta
>>hs


and attached is Outlook way

Thanks


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[Ingo Klöcker]

On Friday 06 November 2009, nicco ts wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> this is the first time I'm writing to this mailing list.
> Normally I wouldn't do that, but it could be the last chance how to
> speed up some big problem in Kmail.
> It's kind of special thing, because I know thousands of people don't
> use it at all (including Kmail developers) and thousands of people
> who are desperate about that (employees working in Outlook like
> companies). Yes it is HTML e-mail support.
>
> And I must also say, that it has poor level in Kmail comparing with
> the leading products:
> 1. Microsoft Outlook
> 2. Yahoo Zimbra Desktop
> 3. Mozilla Thunderbird
> 4. Novell Evolution
> 5. IBM Lotus Notes
>
> The question could appear why I bother you with this if I have 5
> additional clients I can use. Well, I can tell you, non of them is
> perfect and have some drawbacks but the main thing is, they are not
> Qt4 and KDE4 integrated.
>
> So is there a latitude to implement HTML into Kmail? Or is it wasting
> of time to require it?

As far as I know no core developer has an interest in improving the HTML
support in KMail because there are, in our opinion, much more
interesting and important things that need improving. Currently, all
core developers are working on porting KMail to a new backend. There is
at least one person who sporadically improves the HTML support.

So, unless a developer, who is interested in making HTML support in
KMail rock, shows up not much will happen in this area. The biggest
problem with respect to HTML support in KMail is the lack of a powerful
WYSIWYG HTML editor written in Qt that we could use in KMail. The rich
text editor that comes with Qt and that we are currently using is way
too limited.


> It's about 2 problems in Kmail:
>
> 1) is Bug 207779 which removes empty lines while composing in HTML

This bug should be fixable with the rich text editor we currently use.


> 2) is  Bug 86423 when you Reply to HTML e-mail, then formating is
> destroyed and placed as plain text and even point 1) is applied, so
> you also lose empty lines.

The reason for this is the lack of a powerful HTML editor. The rich text
editor has support for a very small fraction of HTML. Thus it's
difficult or impossible to keep the formatting.

> Why it is so important?
> Because in Outlook like companies e-mail is the main tool and if you
> discuss something with 10 different people and everybody adds
> something into history, everything is clearly separated by line from
> the bottom to the top. So it isn't destroyed into plaintext and
> fonts, colors, pictures aren't lost. Anytime you look back, then you
> see what this person wrote you and you can refer to this.
>
> I see you guys use separator in RE, which after while looks like this:
> >>>la
> >>>
> >>>>bla
> >>>>bla
> >>>
> >>>la
> >>>
> >>>>bla
> >>>
> >>>la
> >>
> >>ha
> >
> >ta
> >
> >>hs
>
> and attached is Outlook way

So what. KMail supports both styles. Really the only problem is that
KMail lacks a powerful HTML editor because KDE lacks a powerful WYSIWYG
HTML editor. That's all. The problem is that such an editor does not
materialize out of thin air.


Regards,
Ingo


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KDE PIM home page at http://pim.kde.org/

Hi,

On Friday 06 November 2009 20:58:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > 1) is Bug 207779 which removes empty lines while composing in HTML
>
> This bug should be fixable with the rich text editor we currently use.

Actually, I don't see this anymore with trunk, and we now even have a unit
test for this. I suspect the fix was not backported, though.
 
> > 2) is  Bug 86423 when you Reply to HTML e-mail, then formating is
> > destroyed and placed as plain text and even point 1) is applied, so
> > you also lose empty lines.
>
> The reason for this is the lack of a powerful HTML editor. The rich text
> editor has support for a very small fraction of HTML. Thus it's
> difficult or impossible to keep the formatting.

The limitation here comes from the template parser which is used for replies
and forwards: It is unable to create multipart messages. Once that is fixed,
one could at least keep the basic formatting. This works for editing drafts
and other messages, it is just that the created replies and forwards don't
have a HTML part anymore.

Regards,
Thomas


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Thanks Ingo and Thomas for the clarification.

>The biggest problem with respect to HTML support in KMail is the lack of a
powerful WYSIWYG HTML editor written in Qt that we could use in KMail.

It could sound as insane idea but "the end justifies the means". So what
about to use koffice to compose messages instead of Qt HTML wysiwyg?
Yes I hear people swearing if they will see kmail dependency with koffice
;-) and koffice is not core KDE4 application I suppose, but it would be so
nice. Just same as Outlook uses Word to compose messages, so you can't have
big Outlook without full Office.

But do you really need some HTML editor? Because now, we can compose HTML
messages without any problem, so there definitely is some HTML editor to
compose HTML message in current Kmail.
What I just want is to copy and paste HTML source code of message history to
the end of message which I'm composing in existing HTML editor. Maybe in
same way as we paste signatures or HTML signatures into new message. You
open new message composer and HTML signature is already there. So what about
to do the same with message - take some existing HTML message from inbox and
paste it as it is below signature.

I don't want to edit there anything, just to paste it as it is. It sounds so
simple. All formating is already done, you just need to take it and paste it
into editor which already is HTML capable. It really sounds as easy fix.
What do you think?

> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:58:22 +0100
> From: Ingo Kl?cker <kloecker@...>
> Subject: Re: [Kde-pim] HTML support in Kmail
> To: kde-pim@...
> Message-ID: <200911062058.28354@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15"
>
> On Friday 06 November 2009, nicco ts wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > this is the first time I'm writing to this mailing list.
> > Normally I wouldn't do that, but it could be the last chance how to
> > speed up some big problem in Kmail.
> > It's kind of special thing, because I know thousands of people don't
> > use it at all (including Kmail developers) and thousands of people
> > who are desperate about that (employees working in Outlook like
> > companies). Yes it is HTML e-mail support.
> >
> > And I must also say, that it has poor level in Kmail comparing with
> > the leading products:
> > 1. Microsoft Outlook
> > 2. Yahoo Zimbra Desktop
> > 3. Mozilla Thunderbird
> > 4. Novell Evolution
> > 5. IBM Lotus Notes
> >
> > The question could appear why I bother you with this if I have 5
> > additional clients I can use. Well, I can tell you, non of them is
> > perfect and have some drawbacks but the main thing is, they are not
> > Qt4 and KDE4 integrated.
> >
> > So is there a latitude to implement HTML into Kmail? Or is it wasting
> > of time to require it?
>
> As far as I know no core developer has an interest in improving the HTML
> support in KMail because there are, in our opinion, much more
> interesting and important things that need improving. Currently, all
> core developers are working on porting KMail to a new backend. There is
> at least one person who sporadically improves the HTML support.
>
> So, unless a developer, who is interested in making HTML support in
> KMail rock, shows up not much will happen in this area. The biggest
> problem with respect to HTML support in KMail is the lack of a powerful
> WYSIWYG HTML editor written in Qt that we could use in KMail. The rich
> text editor that comes with Qt and that we are currently using is way
> too limited.
>
>
> > It's about 2 problems in Kmail:
> >
> > 1) is Bug 207779 which removes empty lines while composing in HTML
>
> This bug should be fixable with the rich text editor we currently use.
>
>
> > 2) is  Bug 86423 when you Reply to HTML e-mail, then formating is
> > destroyed and placed as plain text and even point 1) is applied, so
> > you also lose empty lines.
>
> The reason for this is the lack of a powerful HTML editor. The rich text
> editor has support for a very small fraction of HTML. Thus it's
> difficult or impossible to keep the formatting.
>
>
> > Why it is so important?
> > Because in Outlook like companies e-mail is the main tool and if you
> > discuss something with 10 different people and everybody adds
> > something into history, everything is clearly separated by line from
> > the bottom to the top. So it isn't destroyed into plaintext and
> > fonts, colors, pictures aren't lost. Anytime you look back, then you
> > see what this person wrote you and you can refer to this.
> >
> > I see you guys use separator in RE, which after while looks like this:
> > >>>la
> > >>>
> > >>>>bla
> > >>>>bla
> > >>>
> > >>>la
> > >>>
> > >>>>bla
> > >>>
> > >>>la
> > >>
> > >>ha
> > >
> > >ta
> > >
> > >>hs
> >
> > and attached is Outlook way
>
> So what. KMail supports both styles. Really the only problem is that
> KMail lacks a powerful HTML editor because KDE lacks a powerful WYSIWYG
> HTML editor. That's all. The problem is that such an editor does not
> materialize out of thin air.
>
>
> Regards,
> Ingo
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 21:06:51 +0100
> From: Thomas McGuire <mcguire@...>
> Subject: Re: [Kde-pim] HTML support in Kmail
> To: KDE PIM <kde-pim@...>
> Message-ID: <200911062106.56081.mcguire@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi,
>
> On Friday 06 November 2009 20:58:22 Ingo Kl?cker wrote:
> > > 1) is Bug 207779 which removes empty lines while composing in HTML
> >
> > This bug should be fixable with the rich text editor we currently use.
>
> Actually, I don't see this anymore with trunk, and we now even have a unit
> test for this. I suspect the fix was not backported, though.
>
> > > 2) is  Bug 86423 when you Reply to HTML e-mail, then formating is
> > > destroyed and placed as plain text and even point 1) is applied, so
> > > you also lose empty lines.
> >
> > The reason for this is the lack of a powerful HTML editor. The rich text
> > editor has support for a very small fraction of HTML. Thus it's
> > difficult or impossible to keep the formatting.
>
> The limitation here comes from the template parser which is used for

replies
> and forwards: It is unable to create multipart messages. Once that is
fixed,
> one could at least keep the basic formatting. This works for editing
drafts

> and other messages, it is just that the created replies and forwards don't
> have a HTML part anymore.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: not available
> Type: application/pgp-signature
> Size: 197 bytes
> Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
> Url :

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>
> ------------------------------
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KDE PIM home page at http://pim.kde.org/

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Sunday 08 November 2009, nicco ts wrote:

> >The biggest problem with respect to HTML support in KMail is the
> > lack of a powerful WYSIWYG HTML editor written in Qt that we could
> > use in KMail.
>
> It could sound as insane idea but "the end justifies the means". So
> what about to use koffice to compose messages instead of Qt HTML
> wysiwyg? Yes I hear people swearing if they will see kmail dependency
> with koffice ;-) and koffice is not core KDE4 application I suppose,
> but it would be so nice. Just same as Outlook uses Word to compose
> messages, so you can't have big Outlook without full Office.

Did you ever have a look at an HTML message created by Word? 90 % of the
HTML is totally superfluous. This is such a waste of bandwidth.

Obviously, we wouldn't make this mistake. Still there are two problems:
a) Does KWord sport a decent HTML import (for embedding the original
message) and export (for creating the new message)? (I simply don't
know.)
b) KWord allows much more than HTML supports. Also the message will
almost never look exactly as it looked like in KWord.


> But do you really need some HTML editor? Because now, we can compose
> HTML messages without any problem, so there definitely is some HTML
> editor to compose HTML message in current Kmail.

As I said we are using a rich text editor that comes with Qt
(QTextEdit). This editor has only very rudimentary support for HTML. It
doesn't even support embedding images. KMail does now support this, but
we had to write the corresponding code ourselves.


> What I just want is to copy and paste HTML source code of message
> history to the end of message which I'm composing in existing HTML
> editor. Maybe in same way as we paste signatures or HTML signatures
> into new message. You open new message composer and HTML signature is
> already there. So what about to do the same with message - take some
> existing HTML message from inbox and paste it as it is below
> signature.

Thomas suggested to put the original HTML code of the message you reply
to verbatim in a kind of attachment.


> I don't want to edit there anything, just to paste it as it is. It
> sounds so simple. All formating is already done, you just need to
> take it and paste it into editor which already is HTML capable. It
> really sounds as easy fix. What do you think?

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. QTextEdit is not able to display the
HTML correctly. This would surely confuse most users and we'd receive
loads of bug reports for this.

The most simple solution would be to allow the user to write HTML with
an external editor. KMail does already support the usage of an external
editor for the message text. But this text is interpreted as plain text
so that, at the moment, an external editor cannot be used for composing
an HTML message.


Regards,
Ingo


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[Kevin Krammer]

On Monday, 2009-11-09, Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> On Sunday 08 November 2009, nicco ts wrote:
> > >The biggest problem with respect to HTML support in KMail is the
> > > lack of a powerful WYSIWYG HTML editor written in Qt that we could
> > > use in KMail.
> >
> > It could sound as insane idea but "the end justifies the means". So
> > what about to use koffice to compose messages instead of Qt HTML
> > wysiwyg? Yes I hear people swearing if they will see kmail dependency
> > with koffice ;-) and koffice is not core KDE4 application I suppose,
> > but it would be so nice. Just same as Outlook uses Word to compose
> > messages, so you can't have big Outlook without full Office.
>
> Did you ever have a look at an HTML message created by Word? 90 % of the
> HTML is totally superfluous. This is such a waste of bandwidth.

I am not even sure that this mode is supported any longer, i.e. using Word for
composing messages.
Too many people assumed the receipient gets what they write which of course is
not true since (a) Word exports to HTML and (b) it totally depends on how the
receipient's mail user agent renders the content that Word thinks is HTML.

Everytime I demonstrate this to someone using advanced word processor
capabilities for creating mails (e.g. letter heads, page border graphics) are
usually stumped that they've sent rubbish to their correspondence partners for
quite some time.

Outlook should at least have put the Word document into a multipart-mixed or
something.

Cheers,
Kevin
--
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring


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On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 12:34:28AM +0100, Ingo Kl?cker wrote:
> On Sunday 08 November 2009, nicco ts wrote:
Hej,

> As I said we are using a rich text editor that comes with Qt
> (QTextEdit). This editor has only very rudimentary support for HTML. It
> doesn't even support embedding images. KMail does now support this, but
> we had to write the corresponding code ourselves.
Hmm, what about giving the editor mentioned in
  http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/03/12/wysiwyg-html-editor/
a try? As Ariya said, it's only a quick hack, but we can suppose that
the editing facilities of QtWebKit will improve over time and since the
QtWebKit developers use KMail as well this might be a point to luring them
putting some resources on this topic ;)

Ciao,
Tobias


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To Ingo
>
> Did you ever have a look at an HTML message created by Word? 90 % of the
> HTML is totally superfluous. This is such a waste of bandwidth.
>
> Obviously, we wouldn't make this mistake.


And to Kevin

> Too many people assumed the receipient gets what they write which of course is
> not true since (a) Word exports to HTML and (b) it totally depends on how the
> receipient's mail user agent renders the content that Word thinks is HTML.

I know the way how Word do it. But while we cry for HTML e-mail
support then Windows users use it for 5 or more years and companies
and people pay a lot of money to get it. Do they mind the wrong way?
Do they waste with their bandwidth or their LAN is collapsing because
e-mail from Outlook is not 10kB but 600kB?

But let it be. I understand is not something we should be desperate
about. It was just my suggestion to speed it up as some workaround
maybe.

-------------------------

To Tobias
>
> ------
> Hmm, what about giving the editor mentioned in
>  http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/03/12/wysiwyg-html-editor/
> a try? As Ariya said, it's only a quick hack, but we can suppose that
> the editing facilities of QtWebKit will improve over time and since the
> QtWebKit developers use KMail as well this might be a point to luring them
> putting some resources on this topic ;)
>

Yes I've seen this and is written as note in some kde bug describing
HTML in e-mails. There is even some comment from some of the
developers that he is working on it, but he doesn't have much time.
And after that there is no progress. So I tried to ask here if
somebody have the Qt knowledge and is willing to code it.
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[Kevin Krammer]

On Monday, 2009-11-09, nicco ts wrote:

> And to Kevin
>
> > Too many people assumed the receipient gets what they write which of
> > course is not true since (a) Word exports to HTML and (b) it totally
> > depends on how the receipient's mail user agent renders the content that
> > Word thinks is HTML.
>
> I know the way how Word do it. But while we cry for HTML e-mail
> support then Windows users use it for 5 or more years and companies
> and people pay a lot of money to get it. Do they mind the wrong way?
> Do they waste with their bandwidth or their LAN is collapsing because
> e-mail from Outlook is not 10kB but 600kB?

I think you miunderstood what I wrote.
This was not about HTML in emails, but about using Word, or rather any text
processor as an email composer. Because even on Windows this does not work.

A word processor, especially one from an office suite (embedding and all) is
far to advanced for what HTML can do, but since there is no indication in the
word processing UI which of its functions cannot be represented properly in
HTML, people start sending garbish without knowing.

I had to demonstrate this personally to several small business owners who
complained about their associates inability of sending correctly formatted
emails. They didn't realize they were "guilty" of the same thing until shown
that their receipients are just too polite to tell them about it.

Cheers,
Kevin
--
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring


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