Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

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Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Lewerenz :: Rate this Message:

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"Time for a change" say Professores Hanke and Henry of Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland on their home page. And there are some other statements and the whish to be interviewed.

 

Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “How is it, Professores, that if October 15 follows October 4, eleven days had to be eliminated?”  

 

Second question: After having read several books about the subject “Calendar” I am surprised, that Julian Calendar now is stated to begin in the year 46 BC (instead of everywhere readable in the year 45 BC?

 

Third question: Did you realize, that your proposal eliminates 5 (five) day-dates? (31st of January, of May, of July, of August and of October) instead of only one day-date (August 31st), which will be deleted by the “One Earth Calendar”. (slightest possible encroachments)?

 

Fourth question: Is it true, that in your calendar vernal equinox sometimes will happen on March 26th?

 

I feel reminded on the german idiom “Many (more than one) cooks spoil the porridge”. (Viele Köche verderben den Brei.) At last: Si tacuisstis philosophi mansisstis. (If you would have kept silence, you would have remained as philosophers.)  Greetings until next flop from Carlo

 


Re: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Michael Deckers :: Rate this Message:

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    On 2012-01-07 13:36, Carlo Lewerenz imagined asking:

>  Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “How
>  is it, Professores, that if October 15 follows October 4, eleven days
>  had to be eliminated?”

    To which an answer is imagined easily:

       No days, dear interrogator, were ever "eliminated", not
       even on behalf of pope Gregory 13. On the day Britain and
       her colonies switched to the Gregorian calendar, the
       Gregorian date 1752-09-14 replaced the Julian date
       1752-09-03, a difference of eleven in the number of days
       of the month. Other peoples switched earlier and observed
       a smaller difference, still others, switched later with
       a bigger difference.

    Michael Deckers.

AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Lewerenz :: Rate this Message:

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Hallo Michael and all the other friends of Calendar Reform!

The original story source proudly presented in the home page of Johns
Hopkins University contains the following statements, on which I referred
to:

Source: "Henry posits that his team’s version is far more convenient,
sensible and easier to use than the current Gregorian calendar, which has
been in place for four centuries – ever since 1582, when Pope Gregory
altered a calendar that was instituted in 46 BC by Julius Caesar."

I ask: After having read several books about the subject “Calendar” I
remember that Julian Calendar began in the year 45 BC. Are you sure, that it
began in the year 46 BC?

Source: "In an effort to bring Caesar’s calendar in synch with the seasons,
the pope’s team removed 11 days from the calendar in October, so that Oct. 4
was followed immediately by Oct. 15."

In this respect I ask: How is it, that if October 15 follows October 4,
eleven days had to be eliminated?”  Which computer was forced to do this
calculation with this result?

 
Source: "Time for a change" say Professores Hanke and Henry of Johns Hopkins
on the home page of University, Baltimore, Maryland in the original story
source. And there are some other statements and the whish to be
interviewed."

Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “

Did you realize, that your proposal eliminates 5 (five) day-dates? (31st of
January, of May, of July, of August and of October) instead of only one
day-date (August 31st), which will be deleted by my proposal “One Earth
Calendar” because of the slightest possible encroachments?

Last question: Is it true, that in your calendar vernal equinox sometimes
will happen on March 26th?

I feel reminded on the german idiom “Many (more than one) cooks spoil the
porridge”. (Viele Köche verderben den Brei.) At last: Si tacuisstis
philosophi mansisstis. (If you would have kept silence, you would have
remained as philosophers.)  Greetings until next flop from Carlo




-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:CALNDR-L@...] Im Auftrag von Michael Deckers
Gesendet: Samstag, 7. Januar 2012 22:02
An: CALNDR-L@...
Betreff: Re: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

    On 2012-01-07 13:36, Carlo Lewerenz imagined asking:

>  Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “How
>  is it, Professores, that if October 15 follows October 4, eleven days
>  had to be eliminated?”

    To which an answer is imagined easily:

       No days, dear interrogator, were ever "eliminated", not
       even on behalf of pope Gregory 13. On the day Britain and
       her colonies switched to the Gregorian calendar, the
       Gregorian date 1752-09-14 replaced the Julian date
       1752-09-03, a difference of eleven in the number of days
       of the month. Other peoples switched earlier and observed
       a smaller difference, still others, switched later with
       a bigger difference.

    Michael Deckers.

Re: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Irv Bromberg :: Rate this Message:

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On 2012 Jan 7, at 08:36 , Lewerenz wrote:

"Time for a change" say Professores Hanke and Henry of Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland on their home page. And there are some other statements and the whish to be interviewed. 

Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “How is it, Professores, that if October 15 follows October 4, eleven days had to be eliminated?”  

Second question: After having read several books about the subject “Calendar” I am surprised, that Julian Calendar now is stated to begin in the year 46 BC (instead of everywhere readable in the year 45 BC?

Third question: Did you realize, that your proposal eliminates 5 (five) day-dates? (31st of January, of May, of July, of August and of October) instead of only one day-date (August 31st), which will be deleted by the “One Earth Calendar”. (slightest possible encroachments)?

Fourth question: Is it true, that in your calendar vernal equinox sometimes will happen on March 26th?

I feel reminded on the german idiom “Many (more than one) cooks spoil the porridge”. (Viele Köche verderben den Brei.) At last: Si tacuisstis philosophi mansisstis. (If you would have kept silence, you would have remained as philosophers.) 


Carlo, your questions are very strange.
The professors are proposing a leap week calendar reform with the ISO leap rule.
Years start on Sunday (they are seriously considering switching this to Monday), and quarters have 30+30+31 days.

What has this calendar reform proposal go to do with October 15th?  Nothing.

What has it got to do with when the Julian reform was?  Nothing.

The article that mentioned these things is typical of what reporters write.  They don't understand technical chronology, their review of history is horrible, and their articles are for the most part pointless.  The professors just want to stir up some dust and get some action,  but I warned them two weeks before the article appeared in Globe Asia that they won't attract any qualified buyers that way.  Just riff-raff, and your ill-considered remarks are typical.

Who cares about the month lengths?  They wanted a regular pattern.  For months that are nearly equal in length, and to have equal quarters, the choices are 31+30+30 (used by The World Calendar), 30+31+30 (used by my Symmetry010 calendar), or 30+30+31 (used by their calendar).  If a special event currently is observed on the 31st day of a month, and that month will have 30 days in the adopted calendar, then obviously the event moves to the 30th day of the month!

Who cares when the vernal equinox lands?  The Gregorian Easter will still land on the same actual day as it does with the Gregorian calendar, if reckoned by the method of Dershowitz & Reingold in "Calendrical Calculations", 3rd edition.  This method doesn't depend on the date upon which the equinox (or surrogate equinox) lands in March, nor does it depend on the starting weekday of the calendar year, nor does it depend on the leap status of the year.  And it is fully compatible with a leap week calendar employing the ISO leap rule.

Your porridge idiom is irrelevant.


-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Lewerenz :: Rate this Message:

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Hallo Irv, thank you for your detailed comment on my glossa on the wonderful new “Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar”.

1. I think at first we have to decide that there is a need for a more even international or better supra-national global Calendar than it is now. I think, you can consent.

2. If we don’t want to have only an academic discussion but an effective improvement of the global time keeping system, we have to go step by step. Will you agree?

3. These steps must fulfill the postulation of “slightest possible encroachments”, because if there are weighty problems of acceptance, a new calendar will not succeed. O.K.?

4. The World Calendar is very even, because the inner structure (31-30-30) of the quarters are the same. But there are suddenly three day-dates eliminated (31st of March, May and August), what means many heavy problems of acceptance.

5. My proposal “One Earth Calendar” therefore is after the first step only rather even and not very even. First step means: Beginning with 2017 February has 29 and August has 30 days. This means, there is only one day dropped. This means only few problems of acceptance. And nevertheless the first main issue, equal long quarters containing exact 13 weeks, is achieved.

6. Born 15 days after the capital surrender of Hitler-Deutschland, I have a respectful view on culture, history and fate of the jewish people. As every other people I admire and respect, if jewish people have their own calendar in order to define their feasts. Of course each employer has to accept these feasts.

7. If there is a majority in the Economic and Social Council of the UNO in consent to a blank day at New Years Eve, everybody has to accept this decision for the global calendar.

8. I think, we do not need a decision on leap-regularity now. If we drop leap days from 2020 until including 2060 and have absolute equal calendaric years over a time for 47 years, it will be enough, if then will be decided, what leap regularity should be fixed.

9. If there is a majority to make the calendar more even (February and March 30, April 31 and May 30 days), there is much time to achieve these aims.

Best greetings from Carlo (Carl-Dietrich Archibald Lewerenz)

 


Von: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] Im Auftrag von Irv Bromberg
Ges
endet: Sonntag, 8. Januar 2012 00:52
An: CALNDR-L@...
Betreff: Re: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

 

On 2012 Jan 7, at 08:36 , Lewerenz wrote:

"Time for a change" say Professores Hanke and Henry of Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland on their home page. And there are some other statements and the whish to be interviewed. 

Because the famous gentlemen want to be interviewed, I would ask: “How is it, Professores, that if October 15 follows October 4, eleven days had to be eliminated?”  

Second question: After having read several books about the subject “Calendar” I am surprised, that Julian Calendar now is stated to begin in the year 46 BC (instead of everywhere readable in the year 45 BC?

Third question: Did you realize, that your proposal eliminates 5 (five) day-dates? (31st of January, of May, of July, of August and of October) instead of only one day-date (August 31st), which will be deleted by the “One Earth Calendar”. (slightest possible encroachments)?

Fourth question: Is it true, that in your calendar vernal equinox sometimes will happen on March 26th?

I feel reminded on the german idiom “Many (more than one) cooks spoil the porridge”. (Viele Köche verderben den Brei.) At last: Si tacuisstis philosophi mansisstis. (If you would have kept silence, you would have remained as philosophers.) 

 

Carlo, your questions are very strange.

The professors are proposing a leap week calendar reform with the ISO leap rule.

Years start on Sunday (they are seriously considering switching this to Monday), and quarters have 30+30+31 days.

 

What has this calendar reform proposal go to do with October 15th?  Nothing.

 

What has it got to do with when the Julian reform was?  Nothing.

 

The article that mentioned these things is typical of what reporters write.  They don't understand technical chronology, their review of history is horrible, and their articles are for the most part pointless.  The professors just want to stir up some dust and get some action,  but I warned them two weeks before the article appeared in Globe Asia that they won't attract any qualified buyers that way.  Just riff-raff, and your ill-considered remarks are typical.

 

Who cares about the month lengths?  They wanted a regular pattern.  For months that are nearly equal in length, and to have equal quarters, the choices are 31+30+30 (used by The World Calendar), 30+31+30 (used by my Symmetry010 calendar), or 30+30+31 (used by their calendar).  If a special event currently is observed on the 31st day of a month, and that month will have 30 days in the adopted calendar, then obviously the event moves to the 30th day of the month!

 

Who cares when the vernal equinox lands?  The Gregorian Easter will still land on the same actual day as it does with the Gregorian calendar, if reckoned by the method of Dershowitz & Reingold in "Calendrical Calculations", 3rd edition.  This method doesn't depend on the date upon which the equinox (or surrogate equinox) lands in March, nor does it depend on the starting weekday of the calendar year, nor does it depend on the leap status of the year.  And it is fully compatible with a leap week calendar employing the ISO leap rule.

 

Your porridge idiom is irrelevant.

 

 

-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada

 


Re: AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Irv Bromberg :: Rate this Message:

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On 2012 Jan 7, at 20:26 , Lewerenz wrote:

Hallo Irv, thank you for your detailed comment on my glossa on the wonderful new “Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar”.

1. I think at first we have to decide that there is a need for a more even international or better supra-national global Calendar than it is now. I think, you can consent.


Carlo, no, it's not up to you and I.

2. If we don’t want to have only an academic discussion but an effective improvement of the global time keeping system, we have to go step by step. Will you agree?


No.  The steps are done, by many people, many competing calendar reform proposals.

3. These steps must fulfill the postulation of “slightest possible encroachments”, because if there are weighty problems of acceptance, a new calendar will not succeed. O.K.?


No, there is no point in doing a "minimal change".

4. The World Calendar is very even, because the inner structure (31-30-30) of the quarters are the same. But there are suddenly three day-dates eliminated (31st of March, May and August), what means many heavy problems of acceptance.


Those days don't matter.
What matters are the "null" days in the World calendar, which are outside of the 7-day sabbatical cycle, and will never be accepted.
Three times, perpetual calendar reforms that broke the traditional 7-day weekly cycle have been rejected:
1. French Republican calendar, discontinued by Napoléan.
2. The 13-Month calendar, rejected by the League of Nations in 1937.
3. The World calendar, vetoed by the USA at the UN in 1955.

5. My proposal “One Earth Calendar” therefore is after the first step only rather even and not very even. First step means: Beginning with 2017 February has 29 and August has 30 days. This means, there is only one day dropped. This means only few problems of acceptance. And nevertheless the first main issue, equal long quarters containing exact 13 weeks, is achieved.


It the calendar reform is not perpetual, then there is no purpose in doing anything to the Gregorian calendar.

6. Born 15 days after the capital surrender of Hitler-Deutschland, I have a respectful view on culture, history and fate of the jewish people. As every other people I admire and respect, if jewish people have their own calendar in order to define their feasts. Of course each employer has to accept these feasts.


"Feast" (big celebration meal) is not the word that you meant, as none of the Jewish High Holy Days are "feasts".  Passover, written in the Torah as chag ha-matzot, is often translated as "feast of unleavened bread", but give me a break, there is no way that one can have a "feast" with unleavened bread!  And there are plenty of fast days (no food or drink) to keep everybody in check.

7. If there is a majority in the Economic and Social Council of the UNO in consent to a blank day at New Years Eve, everybody has to accept this decision for the global calendar.


As above, this has been rejected 3 times already, so there is no point in bringing it up yet again.  It is defeated, give up the idea.

And we don't care about a majority.  Calendar reform has never in the past been adopted by mass popularity.  The masses, especially the internet masses, function as a brutal mob, critical and destructive of everything, as evidenced by the on-going problems at Wikipedia, where useful articles are constantly under attack by idiots.  What is required is to convince high level authorities that a calendar reform is needed and is optimal.  In the case of the Gregorian calendar, that authority is the Catholic Church.

8. I think, we do not need a decision on leap-regularity now. If we drop leap days from 2020 until including 2060 and have absolute equal calendaric years over a time for 47 years, it will be enough, if then will be decided, what leap regularity should be fixed.


What are you talking about?  There is no point in such an adjustment.  Although a recommend a smoothly spread symmetrical leap cycle having a slightly shorter mean year than the Gregorian calendar, I do so only on the condition that the calendar reform is perpetual yet conserves the traditional 7-day sabbatical cycle.

9. If there is a majority to make the calendar more even (February and March 30, April 31 and May 30 days), there is much time to achieve these aims.


We may get one chance to modify the calendar.  Changing it in bits and pieces won't work.

Carlo, and other Kalendarists, please read Credo: What We Believe on my Symmetry454 or Symmetry010 web page.

Anybody who strongly feels that month lengths should be as uniform as possible will prefer the Symmetry010, because its symmetrical quarters have 30+31+30 days per quarter, whereas the Symmetry454 calendar's symmetrical quarters have 4+5+4 weeks per quarter (=28+35+28 days).


-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


Re: AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Michael Deckers :: Rate this Message:

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   On 2012-01-08 15:56, Irv Bromberg wrote:

> What matters are the "null" days in the World calendar, which are
> outside of the 7-day sabbatical cycle, and will never be accepted.
> Three times, perpetual calendar reforms that broke the traditional 7-day
> weekly cycle have been rejected:
> 1. French Republican calendar, discontinued by Napoléan.
> 2. The 13-Month calendar, rejected by the League of Nations in 1937.
> 3. The World calendar, vetoed by the USA at the UN in 1955.

   Some clarifications in the interest of historical accuracy:

   [1] When the French decided to revert to the Gregorian
       calendar, they had long before given up on the use
       of décadis. By 1800, Sundays were generally taken
       as the day of rest. Pierre Simon de Laplace on
       1805-09-09 thus cited the universality of the
       Gregorian calendar as its principal advantage.
       Still valid today, I believe.

   [2] The League of Nations did not "reject" the proposal
       introduced by Chile on 1937-01-27; due to the war,
       it did not act in any way upon it.

   [3] While it is true that the US expressed their opposition
       against a change in the calendar because of "neutral days",
       this was not a "veto". It did not stop the UN from
       further action upon the topic. In fact, the last action
       of the Economic and Social Council was a postponenment
       "sine die" on 1956-05-16. It still is postponed.

   Michael Deckers.

Re: AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Irv Bromberg :: Rate this Message:

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On 2012 Jan 8, at 13:46 , Michael Deckers wrote:
 [2] The League of Nations did not "reject" the proposal
     introduced by Chile on 1937-01-27; due to the war,
     it did not act in any way upon it.

The League selected the World calendar over the 13 Month calendar because 13 months are not divisible by 4 whereas the World calendar could be divided into equal quarters containing whole months.
That sounds like a "rejection" of the 13 Month calendar to me.
Although religious objection was also a consideration, the same objections would have applied to the World calendar which remains on the table for further consideration.

 [3] While it is true that the US expressed their opposition
     against a change in the calendar because of "neutral days",
     this was not a "veto". It did not stop the UN from
     further action upon the topic. In fact, the last action
     of the Economic and Social Council was a postponenment
     "sine die" on 1956-05-16. It still is postponed.


"However, on March 21, 1955, the Department of State announced to the United Nations that the U.S. Government did not favor any action by the United Nations to change the calendar. The United States took its position in a note transmitted by Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr., U.S. Representative to the United Nations, the text of which is reprinted here:

"The United States Government does not favor any action by the United Nations to revise the present calendar. This Government cannot in any way promote a change of this nature, which would intimately affect every inhabitant of this country, unless such a reform were favored by a substantial majority of the citizens of the United States acting through their representatives in the Congress of the United States. There is no evidence of such support in the United States for calendar reform. Large numbers of United States citizens oppose the plan for calendar reform that is now before the Economic and Social Council. Their opposition is based on religious grounds, since the introduction of a "blank day" at the end of each year would disrupt the seven-day sabbatical cycle.

"Moreover, this Government holds that it would be inappropriate for the United Nations, which represents many different religious and social beliefs throughout the world, to sponsor any revision of the existing calendar that would conflict with the principles of important religious faiths.

"This Government, furthermore, recommends that no further study of the subject should be undertaken. Such a study would require the use of manpower and funds which could be more usefully devoted to more vital and urgent tasks. In view of the current studies of the problem being made individually by governments in the course of preparing their views for the Secretary-General in 1947, it is felt that any additional study of the subject at this time would serve no useful purpose."


That certainly sounds like a veto to me, and the last paragraph indicates that the matter is terminated, not to be reconsidered.

This occasion, by the way, was the eighth time that the World calendar had been presented at the United Nations.  Talk about banging their heads against the wall!


-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada



Re: AW: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Amos Shapir-2 :: Rate this Message:

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You can add to that:

4. The attempt by the Soviet Union to introduce a 6-day work cycle.
Actually, they did not do away with the week completely, but most
workers were put on a 5+1 days schedule, with 1/6 of the work force
taking a day off each day.  The idea was to keep factories working
continuously, so that expensive equipment will never be idle.  It
failed not because of religion (which was abolished anyway) but
because people complained that this hurt their social life, when
friends and family ended up on different schedules and could not meet.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Michael Deckers
<michael.deckers@...> wrote:

>  On 2012-01-08 15:56, Irv Bromberg wrote:
>
>> What matters are the "null" days in the World calendar, which are
>> outside of the 7-day sabbatical cycle, and will never be accepted.
>> Three times, perpetual calendar reforms that broke the traditional 7-day
>> weekly cycle have been rejected:
>> 1. French Republican calendar, discontinued by Napoléan.
>> 2. The 13-Month calendar, rejected by the League of Nations in 1937.
>> 3. The World calendar, vetoed by the USA at the UN in 1955.
>
>
>  Some clarifications in the interest of historical accuracy:
>
>  [1] When the French decided to revert to the Gregorian
>      calendar, they had long before given up on the use
>      of décadis. By 1800, Sundays were generally taken
>      as the day of rest. Pierre Simon de Laplace on
>      1805-09-09 thus cited the universality of the
>      Gregorian calendar as its principal advantage.
>      Still valid today, I believe.
>
>  [2] The League of Nations did not "reject" the proposal
>      introduced by Chile on 1937-01-27; due to the war,
>      it did not act in any way upon it.
>
>  [3] While it is true that the US expressed their opposition
>      against a change in the calendar because of "neutral days",
>      this was not a "veto". It did not stop the UN from
>      further action upon the topic. In fact, the last action
>      of the Economic and Social Council was a postponenment
>      "sine die" on 1956-05-16. It still is postponed.
>
>  Michael Deckers.



--
Amos Shapir

Re: Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar

by Michael Deckers :: Rate this Message:

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   On 2012-01-09 14:42, Amos Shapir wrote:

>  4. The attempt by the Soviet Union to introduce a 6-day work cycle.
>  Actually, they did not do away with the week completely, but most
>  workers were put on a 5+1 days schedule, with 1/6 of the work force
>  taking a day off each day.  The idea was to keep factories working
>  continuously, so that expensive equipment will never be idle.  It
>  failed not because of religion (which was abolished anyway) but
>  because people complained that this hurt their social life, when
>  friends and family ended up on different schedules and could not meet.

    The full story is a bit more complex:

    A five-day "week" ("nepreryvka") was used from
    1929-10-01 until 1931-11-30, with the days numbered and
    color-coded. Different days of rest were assigned to
    different people, with the aim of increasing production.
    This was used with the Gregorian calendar and some
    "blank days" as additional holidays for everybody (eg
    1931-05-01..02, 1931-11-03..05). Of course, the scheme
    hindered productivity because there was no single day
    when all the workers worked together (at least before
    some refinements in scheduling were made).

    The five-day week was then replaced by a six-day "week"
    ("chestidnevki") with a common day of rest for everybody
    on the sixth day, from 1931-12-01 until 1940-06-26. Again
    there were some "blank days" since days 06, 12, 18, 24,
    and 30 of each month (plus March 01) were taken as such
    common days of rest.

    But during the whole time, the usual 7 d week was also kept,
    at least in agricultural areas (eg, for scheduling markets),
    and even in newspapers. The original idea of using the
    names Monday..Friday for the days of the 5-day "week" thus
    would have created even more havoc. The official reason for
    the end of the experiment was the same as for its very
    endeavor: increase of production.

    Michael Deckers.